A reflection on the reasons my emotional affair happened.

Real reasons for the emotional affair

By Doug

Over the past 3 years, I’ve tried my hardest to make amends for my actions that occurred while in my emotional affair.  Though I’ve made my share of mistakes, this whole process has opened my eyes to my own faults as a person and has been the most painful learning experience of my life.

As a result of the affair our lives are forever changed.  Some of those changes are good and others are required.  For instance, I now live a totally transparent existence, sharing any and all information that passes before me each day.  I stay in contact with Linda throughout the day and am open to communication about the affair whenever Linda desires.  When she has questions or fears about things, I accept them openly without anger or defensiveness.  I have no problems with her checking voice mail, texts, emails, or whatever.

I’m ashamed for what I did and need to continue to make amends and create the highest level of trustworthiness possible.  I am confident that someday soon my emotional affair will be nothing but a distant memory void of any pain for Linda – though at times she may think otherwise.

My affair recovery process has included deeper analysis of my past character, habits and behavior resulting in a better understanding of why the affair occurred.  It has been a truly powerful process.

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Here are a few of the things I have learned about why the emotional affair happened:

I failed to maintain boundaries.  

I always had flirted with attractive women throughout my teenage and adult life.  Most of the time I considered it simple harmless fun while at a party or at work.   All this flirting back and forth did nothing but build my fragile self-esteem and stroked my male ego, all the while not realizing the possible effects it had on the person with whom I was flirting with.  Allowing myself to meet Tanya and other women for lunch even prior to my emotional affair, and even though always work related, were other mistakes in judgment.  I think the cumulative effect of this bending of boundaries created a hole in the fence that should have kept anyone other than Linda out.

I was insensitive and selfish.   

At the time, I was too consumed with my own feelings, business problems and what was missing in our relationship that I didn’t think about the consequences my emotional affair could have on Linda, our lives and our family. It was selfish and insensitive of me not to share my feelings of discontent in our relationship with Linda and instead shared them with another person.

Also, this selfishness and insensitivity caused me to act in a way that was quite contrary to my upbringing and to the morals and values that I was taught.  I was a hypocrite and totally ignored my own conscience.

I lied to myself. 

Because of the “affair fog” I was in at the time, I became a master at rationalization.  After discussing it at length with Tanya, I truly came to believe that Linda didn’t care for me and thought our marriage was destined to be one void of true love, intimacy and passion.  I re-wrote the story of our wonderful marriage and turned it into a piece of worthless fiction.  If I hadn’t, how could I have justified what I was doing?

I was an uncaring coward. 

When Linda discovered the emotional affair I should have ended it immediately and dropped to my knees begging her for forgiveness.  Instead, I continued my justifications and the affair.  And though it killed me to see her in so much pain, I was in my little bubble thinking that the grass was greener with Tanya.  I will forever feel guilt because of that.  For some reason, I erroneously felt that I didn’t want to hurt either of them and ended up hurting the person who deserved it the least.  I was wrong.  My conscience was telling me the way out but I was too stupid to take it.

Though the preceding elements are all negative, please understand that many positives have come out of this whole emotional affair mess – both on a personal level and within our relationship.  Our marriage has never been better, as all of the ingredients necessary for a great relationship are at their highest levels in our 32 years together. 

Sure we still have a  little ways yet to travel to get to total healing and recovery – and I know there will be bumps along the way – but I’m looking forward to the rest of our journey together.

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    372 replies to "Real Reasons the Emotional Affair Happened"

    • Dee

      Can I ask you Doug – what motivated you to do all this work on yourself?…and when you did, did you immediately share your insights with Linda?

      My H will admit to similar stuff but only when I have pushed and pushed. He never has initiated a conversation about all this and only when I have been in the depths of despair or anger has some of this stuff come out..The problem is, is that it ‘costs’ me so much – after these times, I am emotionally exhausted, sad and angry with myself for ‘rocking the boat’ (again) and yet I have needed to hear his insights to help me and us heal. He does not understand that this has only led to me suppressing feelings and this can only harm us further….

      • Doug

        Dee, I think a lot of my motivation came from the guilt I felt for the pain I caused Linda and to help her healing. Also, I realized that I needed to make some changes if our marriage was going to survive. Some things just happened with no motivation whatsoever – thanks to Linda! That is, during our conversations she would bring it out of me or plant a seed in my mind that I could consider on my own later.

        I imagine it is a rare thing for a cheater to initiate a conversation about this stuff. Perhaps we have the added element of having this site so it’s always a subject that is top of mind in our house. It’s easy for us to just carry on a conversation about the subject – usually as a result of a reader’s comment. Even so, Linda is normally the one who brings up issues specific to my EA. I think that is just a fact of life that a betrayed spouse has to live with. The key is at least to have your spouse open up honestly when the subject arises. You can’t think of it as rocking the boat and neither can your husband. He needs to understand that you need it to help you heal.

        • Jackie

          “He needs to understand that you need it to help you heal.”
          I can’t agree with this line more, unfortunately my H can’t seem to help me heal. He is having a hard time healing himself, and seems to be wavering constantly between ambivalence and caring. Perhaps he needs to go through this stage a bit longer…he clearly wants to just bury the past without looking much at it and learning from it. Which is what he has been doing for 20 years.

          Bring up past EA issues forces him to examine himself, which I think he actually fears what he sees.

          • Sam

            Wow Jackie!

            I love reading your comments. Your husband sounds a lot like mine! I just wish I had a more positive attitude about all this – just like you.

      • Wrmsmiles

        Jackie & dee’s H sound a lot like mines. Mine actually said that if I don’t let this issue go,then it’s never going to work. I dread bringing the EA up, but I too have a lot of unanswered questions and feel that so many things need to be said to prevent this from happening again. As far as I’m concerned, there needs to be some sort of boundaries/stipulations in place to make sure this isn’t going to happen again. He can’t seem to understand that him just saying it won’t, isn’t going to cut it with me. To top things off he’s put a password on his phone and thinks a wife should NEVER, EVER go into their spouses private “things.” I’m at my wits end and the anxiety I’m going through just at the thought of bringing these issues up is putting me closer and closer into the LOONEY bin.

    • melissa

      Wow, Doug – what an amazing post. You have managed to do some amazing work on yourself. Only wish my H was as clear and communicative about his EA as you are. But we’re managing better and better every day and I guess he is not (yet?) capable of your insight. Thanks again for being so honest and clear-sighted.

      • Doug

        Melissa, Thanks for the kind words. I must also add that both us – especially me – have learned a lot from all of you who post comments as well. Maybe your husband should start a blog! 😉

    • Dol

      Doug, the part where you discuss rationalisations is particularly interesting for me. Both me and my partner have seen little attempts at rationalisations carry on way after d-day. The part of my partner’s mind still looking for a way in has found quite a lot of cunning ways to poke at it. Luckily she’s been self-aware enough to usually notice when that’s happening. It’s been strict transparency that’s solved that. Did you find that sort of thing happening after d-day too? I think from what I’ve read, you did.

      Three months in, and the OM sent her a letter yesterday, ending with yet another promise this is the last time he’ll contact her. We’ve both dealt with it surprisingly well, and that really gives me hope – this sort of thing previously has knocked me completely off my perch.

      But I was shocked today when we were discussing how to deal with it, and she said she wanted to go look him in the eyes and tell him once and for all she had no feelings for him. That sent me into a fair old panic, and sounded like one of the daftest ideas I’ve heard in a long time. She hasn’t reacted well to me calling her ideas daft! But she did then add – “I suppose part of my motivation is to know that I’m over it, that I can see him & not feel those things”.

      I’ve told her she’ll be doing that over my dead body. But I wonder if I’m over-reacting? I’m reasonably sure I’m not – the timing of this letter, then suddenly she needs to “prove to herself” she’s over it by looking him in the eye and telling him so…? Surely that’s just an opportunity to discover he still has the same effect he did before. What possible benefit could be had?

      Anyway, she’s not going to see him, but still: it strikes me as a manifestation of the problem, not a rational way to actually deal with it. She needs to avoid him, full stop, surely?

      We were also going to drop him a two-line email just saying: “so you know, we both read all of these contacts between you. There’s nothing private, it’s always a 3-way conversation.” I’m hoping it’ll make future contact seem less appealing!

      • Doug

        Dol, to be honest, my recollection is that I may have rationalized things for a while, but not that long of a time. Linda may have a different opinion on that though.

        I understand that you are hesitant for your partner to meet face-to-face with the OM, as that is a slippery slope for sure. There is also the chance that she can handle it – but why take the risk? I’m fully confident that if I ran into Tanya that it would have no effect on me, but Linda would have a heart attack if that happened. What you feel is normal.

        • Recovering

          My CS says he never wants to see his AP again. I believe him, and I, in my heart, want to believe that it is because it would just bring back all of the negative feelings of what he did to me and us. Part of me is afraid, though, that his crazy ‘feelings’ would come back, though now they would be centered within my reality… How can those false feelings come back when it’s been so long and you know they were all based on lies and deceit and cruelty? I don’t know. Part of me wants to contact his AP and tell her that we are getting divorced just to force the issue and see if she contacted him, and then if she did, what he would do. Then I wouldn’t have to live in this “what if” world for the rest of my life!!! They still worked in the same place for 3 months after I found out, and he did tell her that one of them would have to leave, and luckily she was already on her way out (though wanted to continue the affair once she was gone), so he just avoided her and would tell me about how she would turn around and go back the other way if they were approaching each other in the hallways…. I do believe this is how he acted then (which boggles me that I believe him…), so why would it matter if he saw her now? When he did such a good job of avoiding her then, and not going to her work going away, and not signing her card, and not emailing her then? Why am I still so afraid of what would happen if he ran into her?

    • Disappointed

      My CS does not see the EA as an infatuation or addiction. Since she stopped all contact 3 months ago he continues to build it up in his mind as she is only person who truly understands him and made him happier than ever before, made him feel things he had never felt before. All in one month of texting. Doug, what can I do? There is no hope if he continues to pine away and refuses to see his infatuation, teen-age like romance for what it was… We are stuck…

      • Doug

        Disappointed, It does seem like it is taking him a while to get over her based on your description. Surely you would think that after absolutely no contact with the OW for 3 months his feelings would begin to fade away. Is he acting totally detached from you, or are you guys starting to reconnect at all?

    • Dol

      “What you feel is normal.” Doug: in various different contexts throughout this process, that fact has been an incredibly powerful comfort. Thanks for that reassurance, it really helps.

      Makes me wonder, Disappointed: has your CS been exposed to enough info on this stuff? The basic facts of what you say are pretty inescapable, and it’s an absolutely classic pattern. I can’t help but wonder if there’s been contact? Sorry if you’ve told us this before, but have you two got complete transparency on communications and movements?

    • E

      Doug & Disappointed – could it be that since OW stopped the contact, that it is even more difficult for him to “wake up” ? Not sure what this would mean or what to do about it, but perhaps just understanding this could help Disappointed deal with the waiting.

      • Doug

        E., Good point. Maybe since the affair ended prematurely for him, he is having a rough time letting go.

        • ThereAreMoments

          We are 18 months from DDay. My H also, did not want to end the EA, he believed that it was true love and was totally shattered, when she choose her old life, instead of starting a new life with him. Neither really looked into their future until, I discovered the affair. They continued to see each other secretly for 2.5 months before she, admitted to loving him and then ended it all. He is just starting to be angry at her, he believes he convinced her and so she is in no way to blame for the EA. He was always the one to end a relationship. He is dealing with his first rejections. Of course it should never had happen, but that is another part of the story. We have been in counseling and this rejection, the betrayal to me, my pain and his being unable to forgive himself are his biggest hurdles. He also does not like discussing it often, he believes it slows his progress as well as mine down. We have great days and trigger days. Recently, I thought that if he wrote a goodbye letter to her that he might get the closure he needs. He and the counselor worked thru that, I can say it was a very hard session for him. I see improvement since then too. We have been married 25 years with 2 grown children and all who know us, believed that we had a great marriage. In counseling he also admits that are marriage was good. I saw the problems and even could see that we were both very complacent. He is selfish, he thought it was good, because I stopped fighting for me and just let him do the things he needed to make him feel good. I no longer let that happen and I am doing more of what I want. TIME is the biggest healer, but there is never a time frame.

    • Carm

      Wow! Doug that is some deep stuff! I been struggling with my Marriage for about 5months. My H has been great doing everything he can in his power to make me happy after his EA hearing your words in this post was like hearing him. I am having such a hard time to move on and be happy.. But reading this makes more sense to me what happen to H. Thanks Doug

      • Doug

        Carm, Yea, I was tired of Linda writing all the “deep stuff!” 😉

    • D

      Dol, it is a daft idea. Well intentioned, but daft, indeed. A safer method to see if she’s over him is to simply toss the letter and give the OM no satisfaction whatsoever. The slightest contact is still contact. She doesn’t have to respond. And if he writes again, throw that away too. If he gets belligerent or otherwise can’t take a hint, well then she, not you, she should write a note saying “Do not contact me in any way ever again.”

      My wife’s OM started sniffing around again after 2 years. My wife was so disgusted with his lack of tact and maturity and that sealed the deal for both of us. He’s officially ceased being any sort of threat to me emotionally.

    • Disappointed

      My CS has not been reading anything. I bought the McDonald book and Intimacy after Infidelity which contained a scenario almost identical to his affair. It was described as an infidelity of loneliness: running toward an awakening. He came to visit and saw the books and accused me of being passive aggressive. I told him I was reading them and did not think I needed to hide them. I dont think he can deal with what he did. Neither of us thought he was that kind of person and he has been on the receiving end before. He has said he is sorry for the hurt and betrayal but not for the feelings he had or for the awakening. Says he will always be grateful. Has made comments that I did not deserve it and that he no longer has the right to pass judgment on others for anything.

      He moved out within 4 days of me confronting him. When he realized that I knew he went to lunch with her and told her that had to cool it because they were playing with fire and people would be hurt. Says no PA at all. But two days later she texted him to say she ruined her life. He thinks she told her husband she was in love with my CS. Later that day she said she could never see him again. I know she and her BS are in counseling. I do not believe my CS and the OW have any contact.

      His sister is being cheated on and when he talks about it you can tell he does not make the connection to the EA. As far as reconnecting, we are talking and sharing feelings but not specific to the EA. He fears that I can never forgive him and says that he does not think he can let go of his resentments. We are having fun sexually. He is being more caring and acting more like a partner in some ways. But I think whenever he starts to think about coming home he feelsthe need to recount his many grievances against me and then mentions the OW and how she understands him or is better in some way. All that he has told me as far as why is that she was pretty and smiled at him, was interested in what he said without judging him and said yes to him whereas I am negative, have too many expectations and say no. He has been adamant that I view his leaving as a result of our “toxic interactions” and not the EA. But he did not leave until he was caught in the EA. I want to share what I have been reading but I dont think he is even ready for that.

    • Lynne


      I am sorry about the pain and confusion you are going through. Some questions for you…………

      1. If your H says he no longer has the right to pass JUDGEMENT on you, then why the comment about you being “passive-agressive”? That sounds like a judgement to me! Plus, the things he continues to say about how negative you are also sound like judgement.

      2. Why are you two having sex together? If he comes home and airs his grievances about you, and continues to talk about how the “OW” has awakened him, why are you providing sexual rewards?

      3. Have you been to counseling or suggested it? Would this help the both of you toward figuring out whether there is a chance at a full reconciliation?

      4. It sounds as if your H is still deeply in the fog (the OW is wonderful, you are not). Have you set a boundary for him that says you’re not interested in hearing about the OW’s fine attributes and his awakening?

      5. If he doesn’t feel that there was anything wrong with his involvement with this woman, have you encouraged him to read up on what constitutes an EA? This might take you out of the equation a bit (and his perception of your negativity) if you calmy and politely suggest that he do his own research in this area. In other words, he doesn’t have take your word for it, he can look to other resources that will define this for him. I think we sometimes we BS’s want to be the educator about right and wrong, and what we think we can teach them about their behaviors, but maybe he needs to do this on his own.

      Lastly, I know every situation is different (and you alone need to decide what’s right for you), but if this was my H who was still talking about how wonderful she was, I’d tell him to go off and continue his “awakening” and hope that when he got his head out of his teenage ass, I hope I’ll still be available!

    • Saddenned


      Of course she is positive. She doesn’t live with him. You can be on your “best” behavior when you are flirting, but that too shall pass. The problem with EAs is it is hard to get passed the “actor” or “actress”. Hang in there. Talk to someone and pray a lot.

    • Paula

      Doug, that is a fantastic summary, and it must feel so good to have all of this self-awareness now. I like the fact that I am now in control of me, yes, the emotions are still there, but I now have some power over them. There will always be sadness, but it is not all-consuming anymore. My OH, who thought he had a handle on it all, the whys, wherefores, etc, has just started to let himself be vulnerable, to question the way he’s lived, the defensiveness, and why he didn’t wear a condom. He has changed, I can finally see it. This is because he’s stopped “blaming” me, not for the affair, he knew that wasn’t my fault, but for not being all better by now. It’s a very interesting place to be. I finally feel like we can build something new, it will be different to the last 24 years, but it will still be fulfilling and wonderful, for both of us. He admits that he thought he had it all under control, even the aftermath, that he was able to halt the contact, “fix” all that had gone wrong, as long as HE was in the driver’s seat. He now sees that won’t work, I can and will lead things, at times, he wouldn’t take my advice previously (what would I know, lol!) He now understands that answering her when she texted, not changing his phone number (because HE WAS IN CONTROL) was NOT the way to deal with her bunny boiling ways. He can’t understand why he didn’t practice safe sex, he just says, like you, Doug, that he was completely wrapped up in the selfishness, and the justifications (I didn’t support him anymore, so he wasn’t doing anything too wrong, all in his head) He doesn’t know where all of that came from, it wasn’t the way he was brought up, it wasn’t the way I’d ever treated him, or anyone, for that matter. It’s been very, very eye opening, for both of us, and such a blessing to finally have arrived here. There is much to do, but at least I can see that the blinkers are off, and he is on the same path as me now, not just trotting along beside, cheering ME on. What’s more, he is actually ENJOYING some of these self discoveries, even though, like you, it has been hard to face up to the “stuff” that isn’t, or wasn’t so nice about himself. He can see how applying some of this knowledge could have, and will, help him in many other areas of his life, as an added bonus. Me too!

      Hang in there Disappointed, Saddened is so very right, these OP are just a fantasy, most of the time, because of the lack of real life commitments, dating is always fun, or you stop seeing that person! He may well eventually realise this, and that old word, TIME! I can remember thinking in the early days of this, that I wished he’d “chosen” her over me, and then he would see what a cow she really is, when they had to deal with blended families, and mortgages, and jobs, etc. He said he’d gone through all of those scenarios in his head, and he had rejected the idea of being with her, for all of those reasons, he knew she was on her best behaviour when she was with him, and he could still see through the cracks, so what was she going to be like after they lived together! (She is a pretty nasty person, judgemental and pious, quite funny when you think about what she was doing, lol!) My OH didn’t/doesn’t like to read too much about this either, but later on in our recovery process (and I mean years, for us) I would see him flicking through the odd book. I didn’t read too many, I found a lot a bit paint-by-numbers, or dumbed-down for most of us who were already pretty self-aware, and had already done a lot of the soul searching, but the couple I thought were relevant, I mentioned that I thought they were on the right track, and left by my bedside, as I didn’t want him to read stuff that turned him off to the whole process. He admits that a couple of the things in probably about two of them, were relevant and helpful to him, and we are the anti-psycho-babble couple from hell!!

      • roller coaster rider

        Paula, so very great to hear some positive news and some promising possibilities for you and your OH. I also am convinced that the self-reflection is a bedrock requirement for both people, and actually anyone who wants to be a healthy, loving partner.

        Thanks, Doug and Linda. I, too, have benefitted so much from all the posts and see a much brighter future than I would have ever thought possible at any time previously. I don’t know if my H and I are unique, but I can’t say I’ve ever heard about two people courting at the same time they are getting divorced. The hope (for both of us) is that as we say good-bye to the old, we may be able to build (with God’s help, and a great deal of patience and hard work, a lot of fun times together and prayer) a new relationship that is built on mutual respect and trust. The healing I thought I’d never see is coming. The transparency we’ve always avoided is being actively pursued. I guess anything is possible.

    • jewel

      I hate obsessing, even having fleeting thoughts about the OW. However, how do you come to terms with having a H who says he is sorry he hurt me, knows it was a fantasy etc etc..and even yesterday said that his “first, best chance at real happiness is with me” Yet he can’t seem to see that the OW has ANY responsiblity….that she has any non-redeeming qualities…SHE IS MARRIED TOO! She had an affair too! It just pisses me off. I DO feel compared, because I am in counselling, I have issues, I need to learn how to commincate, I, I, I….but she….NOTHING. i’m just sayin’….it pisses me off.

    • Patsy50

      Wow Doug, I think someone else said this” What an amazing post” and I will said it again “What an amazing post” I think it tells the hows and whys of a CS and gives insight to the BS Thank you for sharing.

      • Doug

        I’m glad that the post was helpful for you Patsy50. Thanks for sharing.

    • Poppet

      Doug, I too am desperate to prove to my wife that I am SO totally sorry for my stupid self deluding actions. I have promised her that I will never ever stray into this territory again. I have told her that I will dedicate the rest of my life to making her happy and to rebuilding the trust.
      I recognise some of your reasons; Trouble with boundaries, stress, lying to myself, selfishness.
      As well as having problems of low self esteem and a sense of being a failure, which made me seek out approval and flattery everywhere like a drug.
      I was just into my fifties and feeling old and ugly, I couldn’t cope at work (teaching) and everything I’d passionately worked towards (my art) for 30 years seemed to mean nothing to anyone. A much younger girl expressed an interest in my work, and in me, and I was off,.. chasing the flattery and the attention and the sense of not being old or ugly.
      (I always found female company more open to conversations about problems and emotions than mens. BUT I SHOULD HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THESE THINGS TO MY WIFE)

      I was working away from home part time which put me in a different world. I was fine at home where I had the perfect existence, my wife was, and still is, totally amazing. BUT I never admitted my insecurities to her. I just used this girl to escape from my problems at work.
      The work problem was a really scary (panic attack stuff) fear of loss of control and playing with someones emotions is a form of control.
      The affair ended, I got on with my life and through the summer I felt great. I was taking control of my life and exercising, and this made me feel better about my ageing body and my self esteem. Just before start of term I was on top of the world. Then as soon as I was back at work in the situation where I was been fearful and out of control again I went totally off the rails. I had panic attacks every day I was there.
      A girl exposed an interest in me at a gig and I was off again, but at double speed -sending manipulative texts and meeting up with her. I never found her in the least bit attractive, but i continued it for a few weeks and then was found out. WHAT WAS I THINKING? I had been totally wrapped up in the control of this tiny area of my life and it has caused me to almost lose everything.
      I now have distance on it and a clarity of thought borne of the horror of how much I hurt my beautiful, amazing wife. The realisation of what i did, the horrible guilt and the knowledge of how far I had got from the ‘real’ me kills me every day. We have both been suicidal at times, but we have also had many hours of amazing closeness and love. This has been the most stupid, painful, joyful, horrible and intense time of my entire life.
      I hate what I have done and would do anything to scrub out this damage. We are struggling day to day with our feelings even though we have seen a councillor. I just pray that she can eventually forgive my massive mistakes. I love her dearly and couldn’t live without her.

      • Doug

        Poppet, Thanks so much for sharing. I think there are many BS’s that can learn something from what you have written. I hope that you are successful in rebuilding the relationship with your wife.

      • jack

        I know how you feel. My wife of 28 years just left me. Because of my stupid actions. I had a tendency to text everyone that text me and most were women. I never talked to them or wanted any of them in a sexual way. They were just friends in my mind. until about three weeks ago with one of them the texts changed and about a week ago I met with her to talk and when I left we hugged and kissed. Then the text really changed. My wife read some of these texts and left me. for the life of me I cannot tell you why I did any of this. I wished I did.I don’t want this other woman at all. I LOVE MY WIFE. VERY MUCH! I would do anything and everything to get her back. The next day I changed my number, gave it only to people that had to have it and let her know who they were,have an appointment to start counseling. I to pray that my wife will forgive me and my biggest fear is that she will not. I have destroyed my entire life and those the only one I have ever LOVED. How do I fix that?

    • Calis

      Doug I am the CS and i found your post very enlighting the words you said remind me of myself growing up. Its been very difficult for my wife to cope with my EA and many times she just wants to throw the towel in. I have been making many changes in my life to better myself and show my wife the man i should be. I going to hang in here, I love my wife and I can’t see my life without her. Thanks Doug for your words they are a great inspiration and also Linda i have learned so much from you two. ThankYou for being here.

      • Doug

        Thanks Calis, I’m glad that you found some inspiration and are making some necessary changes. Best of luck to you in your journey.

    • Rachel

      Doug, help! My h just told me that he thinks of her all the time and can’t control it. He is still undecided if he is staying with me or leaving to go to her, even though she is married. They had a connection because they dated 30 years ago and he looked her up last feb and they’ve been going to lunch from feb-nov. And texting. She would follow him all over the state to have lunch with him. We were going through a rough time when this happened and he just shut me out of his life and ignored me. On nov. 13 he dropped the bomb after I’d been asking him if we could go to counseling. He told me he’d been seeing an ex g.f. And he is in love with her, not me, they connect, she brings out the best in him, they have fun together. They click. Nothing has changed from 30 years ago. They are both leaving their spouses and going to be together!! He said this in front of our 15 year old son who is now in therapy because of this nightmare. Well, four hours later while I was comforting my son as he was sobbing the h said he was confused didn’t know what he was saying. He ‘s in love with me, we are a family, we connect. ???? This makes no sense to me why the change of feelings? He also said that he wont give her up and he wants a open marriage! Just like newt! Well, on Tuesday I told him that he has a decision to make. He has until feb. 15 to decide if it’s me or her. Thank you for listening.

      • Doug

        Rachel, obviously your husband is not thinking clearly, and the only thing you can do at this time is to think about what is best for you and your son. You are experiencing the typical roller coaster ride, your husband is trying to have his cake and eat it too at the expense of his family. Stick to your guns and hope he wakes up and comes to his senses, remember to do what is best for you, not what will make him come back or make him happy. Linda

    • Lynne


      My only advice is stop thinking about the OW. She doesn’t have any kind of accountability to you, only your H does. If he is really trying, and feels remorse for his actions, stay focused on that. As you can see from many of the posts there are plenty of cheating spouses that aren’t even close to be where your H is. Yes, the OW is an idiot for getting involved with your H at the level she did, but I’d suggest leaving it at that–don’t give her the benefit of even acknowledging her “idiot”ness! In my case, since I don’t have to live with my H’s EA partner, I could care less about her and her boundaries, values or motives. Not my problem!

    • changedforever

      Can’t wait to share this post w/my H. Going to send him the link to this post now & i’ll make sure to tell him to read all of these great comments too. Going thru a. V.difficult time of ‘seperation now…after a ‘last straw’ event which pushed me to the edge (& possibly over.) Things feel different now. I don’t seem to ‘care’ as much. Maybe its been this exhausting almost 17 month ‘ride.’ Now I know why I never liked roller coasters…oh God I want off this one SO bad!

    • ifeelsodumb

      I think this is possibly one of the best postings you’ve done yet!! I can’t wait to have my H read it, so we can talk about it!
      We are doing sooo much better, I still have my moments where I can’t believe this happened to us….AGAIN… and feel incredibly sad….but I’ve been searching for something, and I think between what you have written and what Paula has written, I’ve finally figured out what I need from my H to help me figure out how to forgive him…we’ll be reading this and doing more talking this weekend!

    • ifeelsodumb

      Paula…I believe that what you have described fits what I’ve been going through with my H…and it’s why I haven’t been able to forgive and trust him..even though he is doing more than he ever has to help me heal! Thank you for posting!! And I’m soooo happy for you and your OH, I really am! = )

      @Poppet!!! Wow! I wish MY H would post something like what you have written…I think I would have forgiven him a LONG time ago! Just keep doing what you are doing, show your wife how very special she is, and don’t EVER lie to her again, because that will be a deal breaker for her…Good luck!

    • DJ

      Gosh, Doug, this couldn’t have come at a better time. I’m going to include the link in the next post on my blog, and I’m going to send it to my husband. He is so much better than before, but he needs to hear the whole message. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

      I have come to believe that the attitudes and actions of the cheating spouse affect the time it takes for the betrayed spouse to heal more than just about anything else. I know women who have never healed, and invariably their spouses are insensitive jerks. I have read about women who healed rather quickly. Their spouses are much like Doug.

      My husband? He’s kinda in between there somewhere, and still inconsistent. So where does that put me? NOT OVER IT yet!

    • Rachel

      I feel that my h is th only one on this blog that can’t make up his mind between me or his g.f. I feel that I can move on and make our marriage work but he can’t seem to let her go. I feel that he shouldn’t be thinking of her all the time. He should be committed to our marriage and working things out. I want to go to couples counseling . But he has never said that he is willing to work this out with me. He did say “what are they going to do, teach me how to fall in love with you?
      I’m having a bad day. It’s his birthday and I know she will contact him. She has been for the past 30 years!

    • Surviving

      What you are going thru must be horrible at least he is honest with you.
      I would recommend that you go to counseling even if he doesn’t want to.

      • Debbie

        Hi Rachel, I have been through the hurricane as I believe you are. My husband didnt want to do counseling so I did it by myself it was the best thing I could have done. I didnt make a song and dance over the fact he didnt want to go I focused on myself and my own healing. Before lone after the positive person I was becoming my H decided to join me at one of my sessions. It was hard as a few scabs were picked but we came out holding hands and although I have days where I slip off my perch we are getting stronger every day and the past is fading slowly. Hang in there and become independant without distance remain loving and caring but become yourself and the rest will fall into place it is for us.

        • Rachel

          Thank you Debbie. Well so much has happened since then. Yes I do go to our couples counseling therapy appts. alone. My husband is divorcing me. At the end of the month I will be served after returning from vacation.
          He said that he’s not in love with me, I’m not for him, something is missing.
          I have done all that I could to try to repair the damage he has caused after his e/a with his ex g.f. but without success.
          My next step is to repair my self from the hurt and rejection from this very selfish man.

          • Doug

            This came to our email for some reason…It’s from Debbie:

            “Im sorry to hear this Rachel, but you know he doesn’t deserve you the sad part is on his part it will take him a while to realise this and you will have a better life and love good luck in your new life I wish you all the best.
            Regards Debbie.”

    • Anita

      Sorry you are going through this, your husband is showing
      the worst of himself, which is not a reflection on you. He
      has issues deep within himself, his refusal to end his affair
      shows his lack of respect towards you and your marriage.
      Right now he’s on the fence, he knows you want him and
      he knows the other woman wants him, so as long as your
      going to put up with this, he has no reason to stop this
      behavior, its not painful for him.
      Either the other woman will get sick of him and want nothing
      to do with him, in which then maybe he might want to work
      on your marriage then, or he has an enlightenment on his
      Rachel, when you get good and sick of his behavior and
      are ready to stand up to him, this will continue.
      He’s got the wife at home taking care of the home front,
      doing his laundry, cooking, cleaning, and other tasks.
      He has the girlfriend, who does nothing, but feed his
      ego, and now he believes he is a grand prize, he has 2
      woman who want him.
      Its up to you on how long you want to put up with this

    • Anita

      Don’t let others mistreatment of you determine your own
      value and worth. Pray for him, but don’t allow yourself
      to continue to be mistreated. You need to take yourself
      out of this situation, and if he wants to be married, MAKE
      him earn his way back. Yes forgive him, but he has to do
      the work to get YOU back.

    • InTrouble

      You are waiting for your husband to make a decision, but clearly he already has. My two cents — find a lawyer and get your life back.

      Actually, reading through so many of these posts I often think that. I know it’s cruel, but as a CS I can see that there are differences in affairs. Some – especially the EAs – will die out and, if you allow it, will simply become a bad chapter in your lives. Others – especially the EAs that develop into PAs, and/or in instances where the CS really believes they are in love with the affair partner – will doom a marriage.

      Sometimes a marriage just can’t be saved, or even if it is resuscitated it’s at such a huge cost to the BS that it isn’t worth it.

      I feel awful for BSs. I think too often they underestimate their ability to be happy and fulfilled without a cheating partner.

      • aida

        Hey, InTrouble

        when you said the CS really believes they are in love with the affair partner….. it felt like an arrow pierced thro’ my heart. i don’t know how much he really loves her : it may be that he truly loves her.



    • Notoverit

      Thank you for posting this Doug. It is amazing the insights you have. I also think it is amazing that Linda is also so very smart to have helped you through the EA. Both of you should be very proud of the work you have done!!!

      Rachal, do as Doug said: stick to your guns and take care of you and your son. Your husband is acting like a complete idiot because of his “fog.” The line in the sand is the only way. It may not end as you want it or it make wake him up. Either way, it gives you a chance to go forward which is very important in the healing process. Do as someone else suggested, go to a counselor alone. I did at the beginning and it helped me immensely. Thinking this will end without intervention is not the correct thing to believe. Believe in yourself and your own thoughts. Do what is best for YOU.

    • Anita

      If he doesn’t do the work to earn you back, at least you will
      be free from living a in marriage where he mistreats and devalues you. You will be free to start a new life for yourself,
      which is healthier for you. Also a new life means new
      beginnings, which can be very fulfilling. Best to you!
      You have already done enough to show him how much,
      you wanted the marraige to work, his reply of “what are they
      going to do, teach me to fall in love with you.”
      Make him earn you back, or you start a new beginning for
      yourself. Be confident in you are worth this!

    • Anita

      Infidelity is one of the worst things a spouse can to their
      mate. His relpy of “what are they going to do, teach me to
      love you.” Its pretty obvious with his affair and comments
      that he is not a good husband to you, and he doesn’t even
      care enough to end his affair. Why do you even want him?
      If his actions are telling you that he won’t let go of the girl
      friend, why do you want to stay in a relationship, to get
      What is so special about him, that you allow him to treat
      you this way?
      These are hard questions, and I hope you will see your own
      worth and value not to let him continue to do this to you.
      You can’t stop his affair, but you do not have to allow
      yourself to remain where he can keep this sinful behavior

    • Anita

      In Trouble,
      You hit the nail right on the head, I am also a former betrayed
      spouse who has been divorced for a few years and in the
      annulment process in my church.
      When my own ex husband was involved in his own affair,
      My daughter and my family, helped me see my own value
      and worth, in not putting up with his behavior. I told
      my ex husband to straighten up or get out, he brought
      divorce papers and I signed them, but he he had to pay
      for the divorce. No regrets there!
      In trouble, it took me awhile to understand if spouse
      really does love you, they would never do something
      so awful to you, and when a affair does happen
      as least they would be remorseful and do everything they can to earn they’re way back into the betrayed spouses
      Anything less than that is simply settling, and the betrayed
      spouse does not need to settle for mate, who treats them
      with disrespect, that’s not love. Many betrayed spouses
      could take a lesson on h0w not to settle for a cheating spouse.
      If the cheating spouse want to have a relationship with the
      betrayed spouse than, they have got to earn their way back,
      and nothing less, otherwise it only reinenforces the behavior
      of oh they’ll forgive me and I can do it again.
      This is not love. Also betrayed spouse need to know its ok
      to be single, at least your not being mistreated, or used.
      Being single can also give the opportunity of meeting
      another person who does have their head together, and can
      be in a relationship where they won’t cheat on you.
      Betrayed spouses do not need to settle for being short changed.

    • Notoverit

      Okay for all of us that keep asking “why” and getting no answer except “I don’t know”, I ran across a very interesting article by Robert Leahy that I thought was very insightful. We have all been guilty of obsessing – why did he/she do this, what was so great about the OW/OM, what did I do wrong… Even when the CS is trying to do what is necessary to heal, we keep going over and over it in our heads – it’s the past. I, for one, want to understand the why and when I don’t get answers I just keep going over and over it, I guess thinking I will find an answer. This article was very insightful about “ruminating.” I don’t know how to do a link on here but the website is: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-leahy-phd/dwelling-on-the-negative-_b_799103.html

      Just something those of us who obsess might find helpful.

      • Holding On

        Thank you for the link to that article. I have been back in the mind trap of thinking and thinking about how he could do this and just getting so upset. Trying to figure out the whys and hows.

        This article was something I need to read and then reread weekly to get my head back in the game of the NOW!

    • ifeelsodumb

      Anita, you have so much wisdom and I agree with everything you said!
      I told my H several months ago, if you EVER do this to me again, we are over, because after seeing the pain and agony of what you have put me and our children through, and you would STILL do this again…you really can’t love me the way I deserve to be loved! And he agreed, said he would blame me a bit!
      True love doesn’t hurt and abuse you…and I know about “the fog” but still, a few months after no contact, and a spouse is STILL dragging their feet about whether they want to stay in the marriage…no, that’s when you have to cut them loose, and work on healing yourself!

    • ifeelsodumb

      *WOULDN’T” blame me a bit! : /

    • Anita

      In Trouble,
      The flip side of the coin is that the betrayed spouse can also
      go on with their own life and be happy, so many new
      opportunites sit at their door, and sometimes wheather they
      stay single or remarry, it so much better than remaining in
      a marriage where their spouse continues to cheat.
      Betrayed spouses need to know that their cheating spouse,
      is not the only fish in the sea. So if they continue to cheat
      get rid of them and go fishing!

    • Anita

      In Trouble,
      I can only speak for myself here.
      When ever I see infidelity in a marriage, because of having
      lived through it myself I want betrayed spouses to know,
      yes if the cheating spouse is remorseful and is willing to
      go to couseling and take responsibilty for their past actions
      yes by all means give them a second chance, but if they
      cheat again, get rid of them. By staying with someone who
      cheats, that’s keeping yourself in a situation that only hurts
      If you remain then don’t complain, you have the choice to

    • X-Unknown

      Reading this really strikes home for me. My WW has flip flopped a number of times on what this EA was.

      On one end of course it was “just Friends”
      At the other time “In Love with him”
      And somewhere in the middle it wasn’t ever physical to there was one then some hugging and mutual groping.
      It sucks that this is all slowly being dragged out and it sucks even more when she goes back to telling old (lies) aka rationalisation of the EA.

      I “think” we are done with that because I admitted I was ready to call it quits and one of the reasons was this BS. I think you have to give this type of thing a name that is accurate.

    • Rachel

      Anita you are better then my therapist. Well, I’m fighting to work this marriage out because I love my husband and am in love with him. I took my vows very seriously 24 years ago and we have a history. He has completely changed as a person in 2010 when he had neck surgery. Even my children noticed this change. It got worse last year in feb when he turned 50. That’s when the emotional affair with the ex girlfriend from 30 yearsnago started. She dumped him and chose someone else because it was too good with him and she got scared?? They both agreed during there reconnecting lunch dates that they should have stayed together. Doesn’t say much for him marrying me or even my children.
      I gave him until next Saturday to decide. He said his therapsi

    • Rachel

      Therapist said he shouldn’t be pressured because it’s a difficult decision.

    • Anita

      I guess there’s an old song out there that says,” Yes I am wise,
      but it’s wisdom born of pain, yes I paid the price but look
      how much I have gained, if I have to, I can do anything,
      I am strong and I am invisable, I Am Woman!”
      Some parts of that song are true for me, however I credit
      God, for giving me my strenght and wisdom. Without him
      I am nothing, so I never take my life experiences for granted.
      Having lived through my ex husband’s repeated infidelty
      and our divorce, also going through the process of an
      annulment, I have grown as a person.
      Going through a process like this does make a person strong
      and it developed a strenght in me to know I am capable of
      living without a cheating spouse, and that I can still have a
      blessed life without him, and I do!

    • Anita

      Only when you are good and sick and tired of his behavior,
      will this stop. You deserve to be treated better than having
      a husband who can’t make up his mind.
      The therapist said he shouldn’t be pressured because its a
      difficult decision? Rachel know your value and worth, I
      think your worth more then letting him make that decision.
      Do not put yourself into a postition of letting him choose,
      you chose what you want.
      As of right now this man is not capable of good choices,
      however you are. Are you going to let him devalue you
      more by letting him have that choice of choosing between
      you and another woman? Stand up for yourself, and tell
      him his affair stops right now, or he’s gone.

    • Anita

      I would start looking for a good lawyer in helping you get
      child custody and child support payments, also if your
      state allows for alimony, get this started and if your
      husband returns to his senses, than you can see if you even
      want him.

    • Surviving

      His therapist told him that?
      We’re you there? It sure doesn’t sound like she has any of your interests at heart.

    • ifeelsodumb

      Rachel….DITTO what Surviving said!! IF…and remember, your H is a proven liar…IF the therapist said that…then they aren’t doing a very good job!! Your H is NOT is the drivers seat, calling the shots…YOU ARE!!
      I urge you to buy the booklet by Linda MacDonald “How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair”…and NO, it’s not for your H…while it would be GREAT for him to read it sometime, it’s for you right now! So you can understand how you should be treated, and how NOT to be treated by your H!!

    • Rachel

      Thank You Anita. Surviving yes his therapist said that I need to. E patient because this is a difficult decision for him! She has said so many negative things about me. But, as my therapist said he only hears what he wants to hear.
      He has already been to his lawyer to find out his rights. I was shocked to hear that he can stay for the full 90 days of cooling off period. How wrong is that. I do have a lawyer in mind and he’s top notch in the state of ct. He will cost me some but I really don’t care. My parents will help me with the cost I’m sure but, they don’t know a thing that’s going on!!! My dad is batteling cancer and I can’t bear them with this. In fact my kind husband told ,e that he wants to fall in love with someone else and that we’ve come to the end of our road when I had one foot out the door to bring my dad for Cancer surgery!

    • Lynne


      If it’s HIS therapist telling him that, it’s because HIS therapist is looking out for HIM!!! Who’s looking out for you? As was said here by someone else, he is having his cake and eating too! Poor him.

      When you think about having given him until 2/15 to make a decision, what else is there to talk about between the two of you? Why even listen to what his therapist says, how much he misses the OW, and why he feels it would be so hard to love you again? I’d suggest you have NO CONTACT with him until the 15th! That gives him 12 more days of aloneness and introspection to figure out where what he really wants. Does it really help either of you to continue these discussions until he comes to a decision? If he wants to rebuild with you come the 15th, then these are things to be discussed between the two of you, but until that day and a decision to return to you, what is the point? It will only continue to increase your pain and cause him to say things that he’ll regret. As they say, sometimes you have to take a giant step back before you can move forward.

      Give him some room–and give your own self some peace from this right now. This gives you the next 12 days to reflect on whether this is a man you really do want back. Yes, you may love him a great deal, but is he GOOD FOR YOU!

    • Lynne

      I ran across this blog of a CS (a male), who sincerely regrets his EA/SA, and who has built back his relationship with his wife. The thing that struck me most in reading this is one never truly knows who they are involving themselves with, and what the consequences of this choice might ultimately be–you’ll better understand my comment when you read this blog and hear more about the bunny-boiler the OW turned out to be. For anyone who is on the verge of an affair, they should really read this first. Perhaps it would stop the potential CS dead in their tracks.


    • Surviving

      Thank you for the link.

    • Surviving

      Perhaps the cooling off period can take place at a hotel because you H is putting you through Emotional Abuse, I wonder if your H was honest with HIS lawyer?

    • X-Unknown

      Hi Rachel:

      I want to suggest two people who can advocate and help you. Talk to your GP and talk about depression / anxiety because a lot of people experience one or both during this kind of thing. Ask your GP for some help in finding a good therapist (If you need one) and get tested for STDs. Wondering and worrying about that is a big downer. I want to disagree on one thing. I’ve been to a lot of web sites looking for information and gotten a lot of “this is what you have to do” This was one of the reasons I didn’t talk to my parents about this. Unasked for advice. And hopefully I won’t insult anyone by saying this but I think a person has to make their own decisions about things this important in life.

    • Rachel

      I feel so dumb, thank u for the words and th book suggestion. I just received three from amazon. Becoming one, encourgements for the emotionally abused women, How can I forgive you. And foot the H the bill. Along with my new wardrobe. I dropped 17 pounds from this nightmare.
      Lynne- great advise. I will do that. I have also stopped doing his laundry, grocery shopping and cooking. This week will be the real trial because all of the leftovers are gone!! I enjoy cooking on Sunday’s for the week.
      His therapist did say that his communication SUCKS! I was there when she said it. That is what she is working on with him. Though she is not a marriage counselor. She is a mans therapist.

    • blueskyabove


      I have a few questions regarding your post that I’d like to explore further with you.

      You have never mentioned your father and I wonder if you would consider him a flirt? My FIL is an awful flirt. My H and his brothers are all big flirts. It stands to reason that they all learned how to deal with the opposite sex by watching their father over the years. I watched my H flirt all the time. He knew I didn’t appreciate it, but except for a handful of times when the flirting went way overboard and we had a blowout over it, I typically never said anything to him.

      Here are my questions:

      Did this ever happen in the past with you and Linda? Did she ever comment on your flirting? Did you rationalize the flirting by saying she was just jealous?

      I honestly never felt as if I were jealous. At the time I couldn’t pinpoint how I felt, but after all the reading I’ve done in the years following his EA I have come to realize that what I didn’t like was his total disrespect for me and our marriage when he chose to flirt. Also (and this really concerns me) why, if he knew I didn’t appreciate it, did he never once ask himself why he would choose to continue with behavior that I didn’t like…especially after the flirting incidents we fought over! Even then he chose to lay all the blame on me instead of looking at himself.

      IMO failing to maintain boundaries and being insensitive and selfish go hand-in-hand. I now look at flirting as foreplay. My H has come to realize that it takes two to flirt and he isn’t required to respond to flirting with more flirting. He recognizes now that if he doesn’t respond – it stops the other person from continuing. I believe he is actually enjoying his newfound power by not automatically reacting anymore. I guess it’s true…knowledge is power.

      • Doug

        Hey blueskyabove, My Father was certainly not a flirt but he maintained a leadership position in the community that required him to be quite sociable and to speak in public. So if anything, I believe I inherited his social abilities. My Father and I are quite different in most other ways and didn’t really hang out a whole bunch when I was young. I think that my flirtatious ways were acquired more from the gang of friends I hung out with in my teens.

        Indeed there were times that Linda would comment on my flirting and I either rationalized it as jealousy or probably more that it didn’t mean anything and was just harmless fun. I don’t think we really had many fights as a result of it but I know it bothered her.

      • Doug

        BlueSkyabove, Looking back it was eye opening for me to see how Doug’s flirting effected me. We would fight about it mainly after a night of drinking and partying which was often where the flirting took place, or office parties when I witnessed his behavior around his female coworkers. He would say I was crazy or imagining things. I am not a jealous person by nature or tried to control Doug’s actions so I began to believe it was my issues. Unfortunately I believed that I wasn’t good enough or worthy of Doug’s attention, so I kept trying harder to impress him. Obviously that wasn’t very effective. Looking back I remember how hard I tried to look great, dress well, stay in good shape so he would pay attention to me. Especially in those social situations and when he would run around talking and being the center of attention I would swallow into the corner,or go into the restroom and cry. I wondered what was wrong with me and honestly began to avoid these situations because they made me feel so defeated. I really began to doubt my attractiveness, my personality, etc. all because of Doug’s flirting. How stupid was that? I now realize that it has nothing to do with me and after reading Doug’s post I feel so much “lighter” I commend Doug for figuring all of this out himself and making the changes for himself as well as our marriage. Linda

    • blueskyabove


      Would you mind sharing with us the books that you found to be relevant? Thanks.

    • X-Unknown

      Hi blueskyabove –
      I know you didn’t ask me but here are two that seem to be helping us the most

      How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful – Rona B. Subotnik, Gloria Harris


      Not Just Friends – Glass

    • Disappointed

      Yesterday my CS reacted to me checking my email via my phone. He has been living separately and was over at our home. He started laughing and smiling wryly and I asked why. He started talking about how I have my own life and if I am texting someone else it would not be cheating and who is he to say after what happened (he had a month long EA via text). I am not texting anyone and told him so. I was actually reading responses to posts here. As we talked he revealed that he does not think he had an EA. He says it was a flirtation. I said it was an affair, you put texting her ahead of us, hed of me and our 20 year life together. I asked why and again he said we are bad together and that makes it understandable if not justified. I said they both made a choice and it is not justifiable. He said he did it because it was fun, that he needed a smile, beauty and excitement. Still saying he is in love with her. Told me they did not discuss but told each other how happy they were to find each other. She stroked his ego and he has twisted everything so that he has convinced himself that I have never been supportive of him in the right ways. Later in the evening he admitted that the feelings are fading but says she will always be special to him. He has had a breakthrough in his career and says it is do to her awakening him so that he was hungry again to believe he could have a better life. The things standing in our way to build a better life are primarily his resentments. If I felt he appreciated and accepted me I would not have a problem. I know he loves me. He says he cannot trust or depend on me. He says the EA just happened that he did not look for it. I said so it will just happen again the next time a pretty woman smiles at you? He says no ohe is done look how everything has turned out. He even admitted that if they had actually been together it would not have worked because she is too emotionally unstable. I have been reading a lot to try to understand and as I was talking with him he told me to stop using platitudes and Dr Phil-isms. No idea what I should be doing…

    • Rachel

      Blue sky, flirting was a big issue in our relationship too. My H would constantly flirt with the waitress anytimenwe would go to dinner. His response was he’s just being friendly. We don’t go to dinner any more because I just couldn’t take being ignored.
      If we went to a party it would be the same thing. I could always pick out the girl in the room that he would end up talking to. Always in a tight shirt with a big chest. This has always been an issue even when we dated 30 years ago. My therapist said I had a red flag back then! So degrading. No wonder I have no self esteem!

    • Paula

      bluesky, and X-Unknown, yes, those two and probably Peggy Vaughan, The Monogamy Myth. I think all pretty obviuos, but about right. I read a couple more, but they didn’t really resonate with me, were a bit religious (not us) and/or a bit “blame the BS for not trying hard enough” (especially if women were the BS).) That’s certainly not to say there aren’t others out there, but how much do you need to read? Some people can’t get enough, and learn a lot from the research, I found it was getting repetitive and making me feel bad about myself, because I didn’t act the femme fatale my whole life, I don’t want that kind of relationship, I would really like the one that made me feel safe to be me, something very similar to what I had, I know it won’t be the same, but I would like that comfort, and passion, and intimacy back.

    • Hopeful

      I met with my CS last night. He was supposed to provide full disclosure after discussing with his counselor. He told me no more than he had previously told me. I told him that I want to separate. Based upon everything my CS has done and said to me, I am pretty sure that separation is the only viable option at this point. But I am nevertheless sad.

    • Surviving

      @hopeful, how did he react when you told him?

      • Hopeful

        So, he was, as usual, all over the board with his responses. Notwithstanding the fact that all he has talked about for the last year is how his needs are not being met in our relationship, he now said that his needs are not important, and that he doesn’t care about his needs (!!!!). Unbelievable. He was very apologetic for his EA, but said that he has been unhappy for a long time. At which point, I told him, very calmly, that given his (i) unhappiness, (ii) his unmet needs, and (iii) the fact that he has not been attracted to me for 20 years (which is what he told me 6 months ago), I want to separate because I do not want to be married to someone who feels that way about me. And I told him that he shouldn’t want to be married to someone about whom he feels that way, either. I told him to go and get his needs met. I said that his presence is toxic to me, and that I just want to live my life in peace and honesty.

        His responses were all over the board, i.e., he told me that marriage is “complex”, and that our relationship is complex; we talked about our kids, when he’d go, etc. But here we are, 2 days later, and he has taken no steps to look at apartments or other living arrangements. He is being very pleasant to me, as though we never had that conversation. He exhausts me. Once again, I think I am going to have to initiate a discussion to push him along. If he is as unhappy as he says he is and has as many unmet needs as he says he has, he should go and take care of those things. Out of my presence. I deserve to live my life in peace. I also told him that separation is the decision that he made long ago by his actions, but that he seems unable to follow through with that decision and move out. So, I told him that I was making the decision for him.

        This is exhausting.

    • blueskyabove


      I found it interesting that you and Linda appear to have a different perspective on your past flirting. It sounds like she didn’t think it at all innocent. I’m glad you included it in your observations. I’m glad you recognized it as a factor. So, can you tell me why you chose to continue flirting even though you were aware that it caused Linda discomfort? Maybe if we can figure out that answer we can figure out why these damn things have to happen in the first place.


      I’ll bet flirting is a big reason for EAs in a great many cases. I’m sorry that you, too, had to go through that feeling of “not being good enough”.

      On a different note I have been wanting to mention for quite some time that I noticed over a year ago, somewhere around Thanksgiving and/or Christmas of 2010 that Doug’s writing was changing…it started coming from the heart. Maybe it was me that was changing, but his posts seemed a little less preachy and more sincere. Perhaps “preachy” is the wrong word but there were many times during the first year of your blog when I sensed his frustration (?) with many of us BSs and why we seemed to be so slow at moving forward. (Don’t even try to deny it, Doug.) In the end maybe our slowness enabled HIM to finally “get it” and ALL of us could really and truly start to heal together. I give him credit for hanging in there. I know there have been occasions when he has been a punching bag for people and the way he has handled it tells me his heart is in the right place. Many CSs would have quit. Let’s be honest, most CSs would have never agreed to take on this challenge in the first place. That alone tells me that Doug believes you are more than good enough, Linda.

      The two of you are doing a great service for humanity.

      • Doug

        Bluesky, I guess I continued flirting because I didn’t really consider it as inappropriate or that it meant anything. I was just “kidding around” or whatever other excuse I would think up. The fact is that even though the flirting didn’t mean anything to me, it did to Linda and I was insensitive about that. I thought she was acting silly.

        Thanks for the kind words as well. I think that you have assessed the past couple of years pretty accurately.

    • blueskyabove


      Thanks for responding. For some reason I thought you were referring to books that had somehow previously evaded most of us. I agree with those you mentioned and I’m probably going to sound like a broken record here, (oops…CD) but the sooner people get away from the books involving affairs, the sooner they will start healing. It took me a while to also realize that they didn’t help me feel better about myself. That really had to come from inside me.

    • blueskyabove


      It’s only degrading if you allow it to be so. Don’t let someone else determine your self-esteem. My H always thought the women that flirted back were just “friendly”. He now knows they have weak boundaries which translates to major personal issues. He no longer wants any part of that. He doesn’t feel it is his obligation to help them. Healing himself has turned into a full-time job.

    • Rachel

      I have to ask you this question. After you stopped contact with the OW, did you still think about her?

      • Doug

        Rachel, Sure, for a while, but in no way was it a pining for her or anything like that.

    • Anita

      Sorry about your dad battling cancer, however right now
      your father needs you also so does your mother and they
      need these moments with your children. Rachel I lost
      both my parents at a young age, so I know the importance
      of being there for them right now.
      Your dad give you unconditional love and was there for you
      from the time you were born. Once this time passes you
      can never get it back. Someday you will never regret being
      there for him.
      If your cheating husband can’t make his mind up, about you or
      another woman, he is not worth the time this is stealing
      from you, for being there for your parents. Trust me on
      this one. Don’t let your husband’s selfish behavior rob
      you from taking the time to be there with your parents.
      If your husband was 1/2 a man, he should be there for you,
      and your family during this time, shame on him.
      Focus on you and your family and children.

    • Paula

      blueskyabove, granted, I agree with you about the books somehow prolonging the agony, but it is probably a necessary step for most, as it starts the healing process, and starts to get people to think about their actions and reactions.

      About the flirting comments here, I sure do feel for those of you who had partners who did this to the degree that you felt uncomfortable, that is blimmin’ cruel! My OH always had plenty of female friends, and was very comfortable talking and laughing with them, I put it down to being the youngest in his family, with only sisters, I am the same, always seem to gravitate to the men’s conversations (can’t bear the recipe swapping/competitive parenting that sometimes goes on in women-only gatherings!) I am the eldest, with only brothers. I never saw it as flirting, I still don’t, I just enjoy talking about the kind of things guys talk about, I hate superficiality, and guys seem less into this, as a rule, not always, there’s plenty of jerks out there who love to play one-upmanship games, too. I had forgotten I even do this, when we were at a local Xmas party last year, and one of the men there mentioned to my OH a couple of weeks later, that he noticed I was more interested in talking to the guys than the girls. He wasn’t meaning anything by it, he’s just an observer of human nature and I believe he knows what went on with us (smart guy in his mid-50s, second, happy marriage, his first wife, mother of his first three children left him for one of his best friends, he kept the kids, who were all primary-school aged, he did a fantastic job with them, has two daughters to second wife, friends of my younger two children – he has no doubt evolved into a people watcher, with his life experience, I think he’s awesome!)

    • Surviving

      The complete opposite of Doug is on the blog mentioned abI’ve the wayward husband. He includes a post from Linda on it. But what really got to me was how he called CS who posted on other sites names especially ‘nazi’. The only thing this man cares about is the sex his wife is giving him, the psych other woman and the mind blowing sex she gave him and how he misses the OW. So grateful to Doug and Linda so grateful for this site. This site has been more therapeutic than any therapist and most friends.

    • Anita

      When it rains it pours, you seem to be under that storm cloud right now. It it so important that you take care of yourself during this time.
      In my own personal life, I have found prayer to be very
      helpful in getting me through those times. In fact it made
      me feel secure and protected. Everytime I have went
      through a storm cloud in my life, I could always look back
      and see how God used it for my good.
      Had I never divorced and moved to another state, my son
      wouldn’t have met my grandchilds mother. So now I have
      a beautiful grandchild, that I get to be around because
      we live in the same city.
      I have the better deal, I lost my cheating husband and gained a grandchild that brings me so much happiness and
      joy, how do you beat that.
      Rachel, good will come from all this, God Bless you!

    • Anita

      At the time when I was going through, what you are now, had
      it been possible to see what the future had in store for me,
      and I how I would feel years later. I can say this with
      total honesty, I would have never shed the tears I shed,
      over my ex husband. However, since that’s not possible,
      and the future is always unknown, you can only take one
      day at a time.

    • Rachel

      Anita, thank you! Tuesday will be my dads third surgery since June. He just started feeling good when he had to have a routine scan after the six weeks of treatments to make sure nothing grew back. This time there are three of those damn tumors. He’s 81 but a very young 81 year old. Still cuts wood, does his own yard and has an amazing vegetable and flower gardens in the summer. I will bring my parents to the surgery and my mom waits at my house while we wait for the dr. To call to pick up my dad. So hard seeing your dad after surgery sitting in a wheel chair.
      The last two surgerys inwasnnever comforted by my H. This was very painful to me. Now I know because he was with the OW. Can you imagine not comforting your wife during a time like this? Almost like he would have been cheating on th OW if he just hugged me once.
      I blew up at him last night. He was watching Saturday night fever. That was their movie. Well, he said that he’s not leaving. He wants to try to work at things. And see how it goes. He wont file. Told me to.
      Weaning myself off of the Prozac. Such a dangerous drug. Makes me wildly angry. Those pills are not going to push back time and not make him have the affair or say the heartless and cruel things to me. One day at a time. My dad and my mom are my main concern this week.

      • Anita

        Hope everything goes well for your dad, and I wish the best
        to all of you.

      • battleborn

        Rachel, I found out about my husband’s EA/PA at the same time I found out about my father’s battle with esphogeal cancer Feb 2011. I have a lot of empathy for what you are going through. I was twisting in the wind with no end in sight, I went out to spend time with him and left my family at home, devoured everything thing I could read about both problems and after speaking with Linda came to the conclusion that I had to take care of my father first. Like Anita said, he gave me unconditional love and he was always there for me – no questions asked. I could only give that in return when he needed me. I lost my dad the following month, his cancer was too far progressed. But I did learn one thing while I was with him. If anything is worth fighting for it’s your quality of life. Are you and your marriage worth the necessary tear down and rebuild such as Linda and Doug have been doing?

        Just as your father is fighting through the cancer, the affair is a cancer in it’s own right. But you have two choices… The marriage worth fighting for or has the cancer progressed to the point it needs to be removed. Unfortunately you are the only one who can make that decision. I have been there and it is a difficult one but it must be made. But you know what? Take care of your Dad first. You will be thankful that you did, my outcome wasn’t the best, but in the end I am glad I spent my last few weeks with my father instead of wasting it on a matter that could be taken care later.

        My best to you.

    • Rodion

      Dol – Responding to your comment above. Here’s the advice I was given as to how to cut off contact from the OM, should he continue to pester your spouse.

      First, you should change your home phone number, and then change her cell phone number as well, and then make sure these are not published. Do not leave a forwarding number, either.

      Second, she should change her email address, and block him from any social-networking sites that he might have access to her on.

      These two things alone send a very strong message when the email pings back as undeliverable or the phone number has been disconnected. If he sends a letter, it should be marked “return to sender, delivery refused”.

      If he still persists, then here’s what you do:
      You have her get in touch with him and set up a meeting in a public place, preferably one that is well frequented but not too busy. It should have rectangular tables, and ideally it would be difficult to see the parking lot from wherever the OM would be seated. Unbeknownst to the OM, you will both be coming to this meeting. Arrive 5-10 minutes late so that the OM has a chance to find a place to sit; you can probably be assured that he’ll find a place facing the door. Then, the two of you arrive, together, preferably holding hands. You walk up to his table but do not sit down. Your wife delivers a very brief message, to the effect of, “I am a married woman, and I am committed to my marriage. I do not want to see you or hear from you ever again.” You do not say anything. Then the two of you turn around and walk out, again, preferably holding hands, or arm in arm, or showing some other obvious sign of affection.

      That’s a pretty strong message, and in most cases I’d imagine it would be sufficient to end further contact once and for all.

    • Disappointed

      My husband is pining like he lost his soul mate after one month of texting. When they saw each other for business it was all business. He tried to blame on me and how we were, I told him I would not own the affair… It was his CHOICE. How can things get worked through when he cant even be honest with himself?

    • Rachel

      Thank you, Anita and battle born for the kind words. It’s been a rough weekend. My husband refuses to say that he is 100% willing to make our marriage work. He said that we can try to make it work. He hasn’t had any contact with the other woman, so he says. And he won’t file. Said for me to do it. Can’t figure any of this out. I’m so exhausted from all of this stress.

      • battleborn

        Rachel, STOP! Take a deep breath and let it out slowly. You are making me hyperventilate just reading your posts. You cannot and let me repeat cannot let yourself get this exhausted. I know, easier said than done, but all of us will tell you that it is the truth. The more you let yourself get worn down, the more damage you will do to yourself. You cannot figure out how to handle the situation unless you take the time to help yourself.

        This is exactly why I posted my last response to you. You are exhausted, you have too many external problems besides your CS, and you are trying to make too many decisions right now. If you can learn anything from my experience, please learn this – you are the only one who matters at this point. You cannot take care of your father or your marriage if you are not healthy. You must take care of yourself first.

        MANTRA: Stay healthy, stay smart, stay healthy, stay smart…

      • Lynne

        Remember right now, your father first (relish all the time you have with him) and your husband LAST! As I’ve said to you before, does it make sense to even listen to what your H spews right now? He has your deadline of the 15th of this month–he needs to decide whether he wants to commit to the marriage OR not–don’t worry right now whether its 100%. A commitment to try to make it work may be all that he can offer right now. Are you even 100% sure that you want to continue with him, with all that you now know?

        I know you are facing a lot right now, and a lot of it is very uncertain, but know that you can’t control him and his choices–you can only control yourself and your reactions to him. For your own sanity, I’d say BACK OFF of him and take care of you and your father. Besides, you are dealing with someone who is not completely rational (he’s clearly in some kind of fog), so why try! A few more days of distancing yourself from his nonsense won’t make or break the outcome of this–now breath!

      • ifeelsodumb

        Rachel…..maybe you should go stay with your dad for a few days…have a nice time talking with him, helping him…just gte out of the house! My H HATED coming home to an empty house after Dday…I would take my children and go out, even if it was to buy them ice cream at Sonic. I planned it that way, and didn’t leave a note, and turned off the cell phones!
        Was that wrong? Hmm, I don’t think so, after all, what he did to ME and my children was VERY wrong, and some times, was borderline emotional abuse…at least that’s my opinion.
        The reason I did it is because I wanted him home alone…walking through this big, quiet house, wondering IF we were coming back…he later said that that was when he was scared the most, not knowing if we would come back.
        You see, after all these years together, your H knows you better than you think… He’s probably thinking you won’t stick to the deadline on the 15th…because you love him, right?
        So take some time for YOU…I’m telling you, it DOES work when you take a stand! I didn’t believe it until I did it…your H IS NOT in love with the OW…he would have left you in a heartbeat if he was!
        Look at your relationship in the past…is he manipulative, but in a “nice” way? Do you usually give into him, without a fuss? I’m seeing more and more BS, (usually women) who are becoming stronger because of the EA’s their H’s have gotten into….they come to realize that they have put themselves last, their partner or kids first!
        I know in my case that’s what I did, and I never even realized it until after Dday!
        Something my H told me after DDay and I was grilling him about the EA was that they OW asked him “Doesn’t your wife EVER check you cell phone records”? And he told her “No, she trusts me”….THAT hit me hard because he said he never even felt any guilt when he said that…such a simple statement, but it just opened my eyes to the fact that he was so use to me being there for him, taking care of him, the kids, the house, etc….and he never once thought of me as a person!!
        Rachel, do as others on here have suggested, take some time for YOU!
        It’s been 1 yr, 5 weeks today since Dday for me….looking back, I wish I had done things a lot different, and had listened to some of the advice that I received on here!

    • Rachel

      Battle born, your blog made me LOL!! My Prozac makes me very wired. I’m all over the place. Can’t focus on one project at a time. Took my son to the dr today 1 1/2 hours too early. My head is spinning. I don’t like the not knowing portion of my relationship. Just want a final decision.
      Thank you!!!
      Lynne, should I go with that I’ll try answer. It seems it is the only one he can give me. I just feel that I’m being tested and if I pass his test because I’m a good girl and don’t raise my voice or ask any questions about HER, he’ll stay. If I disobey he’ll leave.
      Ifeelsodumb, I have left him alone many times but I think he likes it too much. Tonight he was eating dinner alone and I did think that it bothered him. I am keeping my distance and will for a few days. Had me boiling yesterday when I said I will file because he won’t and he said it’s all my fault any ways!!!! Ugh!!!!!he infuriates me!!!!! Ok time to breath and repeat stay healthy, stay smart, breath, stay healthy stay smart! Thank you!! You guys always make me feel so much better!

      • Lynne


        So what happens if you are a “good girl, don’t ask questions, and he stays”…….what happens when you reach a point where you want and need answers? Not just answers about the OW and his antics, but answers about “why” it happened. It didn’t happen because of you (not that we don’t all have some imperfections), but because he made bad choices. How do you see both of you working through these and him learning about why he saw this as an outlet for his frustrations. Without this level of introspection, what really changes in your marriage? Do you truly want a marriage where he’ll leave if you disobey him? What do you want to feel happy and fulfilled–that is a more important question!

        I am really pulling for you.

    • Rachel

      Lynne, he claims he looked her uP to see how she was doing. “just catching up with an old friend” . Visited her at the store she works at. Then meet her for lunch four times. Totally innocent! ( haha). Does he really think that I’m that dumb? none of this story matches up. It’s almost as if it’s a lie and has told it so much he believes it himself! We were having problems in the past. I was so tired of the flirting, negative comments about my hair, clothing, who I spoke to etc. He told the counselor it was constructive criticism. She said it was criticism. I called it plain nagging. I think he looked her up because she was his first love and they had a connection 30 years ago. And he wanted to rekindle it because he fell out of love with me.wanted the attention again. And she dumped him once he wanted to see if she changed her mind. She did. She said that they should have stayed together and he agreed.
      He will never talk about his EA . The only time is when I bring it up. He did say that he’s sorry that he ever looked her up. It’s the hurtful things that he’s been saying that I can’t get passed. Too much to handle. Never in a million years did I think that he would do this to me.

    • Surviving

      Who is the OW? Is she also married? How did you find out? does your H go with you to visit your dad?

    • aida

      Dear Doug,

      Hi. i would like to ask you a Q. please pardon me if i start to ramble a little along the way though.

      okay…we married 16 years ago – it was love. at least i thot i was. no, wait. actually, it was more like “i think so”. i knew he was a good guy, he was mature, patient and he seemed like he cared about me. we didn’t actually hit it off all the time, i felt that we were so different but i didn’t want to be a failure in my relationships like i was a failure in most other things i did in my life, so i went ahead with it. maybe it was fate. looking back, i realise i could have been gentler and more mature but i wasn’t – i was spoilt, careless and negligent. i never denied that. i tried to change over the past few years – but the only thing was my temper didn’t – i still had a short fuse but it erupted mostly when i found ‘clues’ of other women, be it on the phone, etc. the only thing was it was too little, too late.

      You know, it’s funny : i was bending over backwards throughout 2010 – 2011 to please him (my 9 year old specifically told me so…..) : so much so that my kids’ fave sentence had become “Mummy, you are always thinking of how to make Daddy happy!” – it was more of a complaint rather than a compliment becoz i’d often be gathering their stuff up and telling them to do this and that for Daddy, to make sure the house was prettied up and that the lunch menu was based on what Daddy liked, (heck even Daddy said, ‘Don’t mind me! What about the boys???!!!!!)

      but it seemed like husband was in an affair fog ….maybe because he had ‘hated’ me by then. can you imagine this, he never once complimented me on the meals etc….and instead found fault with so many things i did. sometimes, there i’d be slogging over the fire and after lunch, he’d go up to the living room and check his phone….little did i know he was checking on his text messages from OW, and he’d be replying them. I mean, he’d be doing things like that right in the living room, or wherever he was – even abroad – when we were at home. He’d even reject my sexual advances – he would say that i snored too loudly etc so i needed to just go sleep somewhere else.

      and the best part? there are two : the OW texts him almost every second, every heart beat, every breath. i mean, even when he was abroad on duty, or on a holiday with the family. DOES FAMILY NOT MEAN ANYTHING at all? and yet when some relatives didn’t come for my kid sister’s wedding, hubby was huffing and puffing and asked me “Humph, is that the value of family????” (LOL! i almost died laughing inside).

      and when he was on holiday with the family the OW continued to text him, and he texted back with a completely straight / sometimes even a serious look on his face.

      over the years, i noted all the symptoms and I specifically told him that i was willing to back off if he had an OW. but he never replied. never once. and whenever i found those ‘clues’, he would lie to me – point blank. he came up with one excuse or another : LIES, LIES AND MORE LIES : point blank. Why, Doug, WHY? the only thing i wanted was honesty. only thing was integrity. we’ve known each other – even only at superficial level – for 20 years. even if it’s not for the sake of me as your wife, surely…..as an old friend? surely as someone you have known since you were little more than a grown up kid….(well, that’s exaggerating it a bit, but you understand what i’m trying to say). i mean, surely, surely if you have the gall to lie to me, then surely you have the guts to tell it in my face.

      so, when i found out about the current affair – i started digging for more info – and what I found was not pretty.

      i told him, okay, it looks like you and her are a pretty solid team. i respect that….(don’t ask). i love you but I’m not going to stand in your way. (THAT was not a difficult decision. i was more angry that he DARED, that he even thought of lying to me and to the children).

      and yet even after i decided to go – due to legal restrictions, i have not physically left the family home. Can’t do that until we reach a final divorce in the Muslim courts.

      funny thing though, it’s really odd…. when I told him You are free to continue with her, just don’t text her in the family home, please – at least respect the family coz family is important and almost sacred to me – yet he still didn’t give any thought to that. He actually disappeared for a few days, saying that he would be travelling north…..driver dropped him off at the station so he could get the flight to the said destination. Guess what. His name was not on any of the flights out to the said destination (i checked). Yet just before he left that day, i told him “You can do whatever you want, just don’t do it in the family home and just wait a short time more – kids and I will be out of your face anyways.” and “If you love her, take care of her….don’t always lose your temper with her like you have with me….take care”. His answer was “U are sick”.

      I mean, WHO is sick? me? i’m the sane one, as far as I’m concerned. and his best “You say you are okay with my relationship with her, yet you check my phone”. On 30/12/2011 she told him (text message), “You should not divorce Aida, the kids need you both” (ahahahhah. after years of chasing my husband left, right and center, suddenly she has a conscience?) to which husband beautifully replied “It’s hard when there is no chemistry”. No chemistry? then how come when I asked to consider separation previously he never agreed to it…SUDDENLY there is no chemistry? what is chemistry anyway?

      so now, he has agreed to the divorce, because he seems keen to take up the procedure – starts with the court-endorsed counselling. It’s sad, but at least i would not have to lie anymore. It’s sadder for me to watch him lie – more than just a husband, he is also someone whom i trusted, respected and grew up with for 20 years of my life. 20 years is a long time. 20 years is half of my life to date. It’s sad to see someone you have respected and maintained as part of your family – the HEAD OF YOUR FAMILY – become a pathetic liar.

      Do i wish and hope he’d come back to me? yes, but not like this. not in this current state.

    • aida

      and you know what, Doug? i forgot to tell you….I had to go to London for a business trip, and while there i actually bought him an original Italian silk tie which would cost hundreds back home…even my boss helped me to choose it. and what happened? during my absence, he brought the OW into our home (i mean what in God’s name did he think he was doing?) – he brought her into our home and they went out with the kids, etc. kids calculated it was all five interactions. I mean, no wonder he seemed angry that I was back after a week.

      Before I left for London, i told him that during my absence the boys would be having their school carnival, and KNOWING HOW CLOSE I AM TO THE BOYS, AND KNOWING FULL WELL THAT I HAD BEEN CHIEF LIAISON WITH THE SCHOOL ON BEHALF OF THE PARENTS whenever there were activities or even forms to fill…. it was always Mummy – and he told me with the most innocent face ever : “It’s okay – i will handle it, taking boys to the school carnival”. Guess who he roped in to bring them there. and the day before that, he roped OW also to send kids to their maths class – and after class they went to “have tea” together and while the lady was parking his merz (yeah, that same merz i had borrowed before), he said “Don’t tell Mom about this, okay? Promise?”.

      so, Doug, in your honest opinion, would you even want your child to be brought up by such a human being? is this a human being, even?

      • Doug

        Aida, First of all, thanks for sharing and I’m sorry that you (and your kids) are going through all of this. Your husband seems as though he is deep in the fog and is being uncaring, dishonest, insensitive and very selfish. In no way is it right for him to be bringing the OW around when with your kids and while you are out of town. That was a major screw up and tells me that he doesn’t know what the hell he is doing. Whether or not he is fit to bring up your kids is a bit difficult to answer. Has he proven in the past (separate from the affair) that he is an unfit father?

        • aida

          Dear Doug (and Hi, Linda).

          To answer your question, No…he still is a good father and a good son. He is a bad influence in terms of replying to OW’s text messages right in front of the kids (he thinks they don’t know or he is too lost to care : i dunno).

          But you know what, he has never failed to put food on the table or to pay for holidays, school books etc.

          He has also maintained the Muslim prayers (5 times a day) and fasts in the Holy Month of Ramadhan. He checks on the boys about their prayer times, their school work, etc. He is a stickler for discipline, and he still buys them toys etc.

          Doug, honestly, I would not be surprised if he has married the OW because in the Muslim religion, you are allowed polygamy. But there is an IMPORTANT condition : YOU ARE TO BE FAIR TO ALL WIVES. that’s a little hard for a lot of men, but in the true sense of the word, if he IS married to the other woman, then he is not being fair to her either. because most of the time he is in the house he shares with me and the kids. If he had married her, at least he should be able to split his time right down the middle, at least. so right now, he is neither here nor there.

          You know, in his defense, i would like to say that he had ‘indicated’, scolded etc his dissatisfaction with me before – “I feel unappreciated”, “I thought you said that you were going to cut down on your office work, but instead you set up a home office!”…. to be fair, I really WANTED to change, but I never really knew HOW to….. work is just so much and I am kind of slow and most times I get easily distracted, so it’s kind of hard to stick to a disciplined change.

          That’s why when i found out about the OW, I said to myself, “he sounds really in love, really gentle to her, so it must be love”. I was never able to achieve that, not even when we were courting…. well, she teases him and stuff, and he replies with good humor and they sound like a married couple (did you know that she’d text him “Good Morning, Love” every day and he’d reply “Good Morning Beloved”…when over the past few years, i’d be texting him, Have a good day and may God Bless You, and not a word, not a single thank you… not even a thank you.

          that’s why I said, yeah…. it hurts me…. but i don’t want for both of us to spend more years of our lives trying to patch things up but in the end realising that he may not achieve what he wants and I would still fail to give it to him, and yet I too will not be fulfilled.

          (share a secret wish with you guys? You know, the way she texts him ….gosh it is sooooo gentle and loving…. yet when speaking to me, it was really crude and ‘uppity’. i was just thinking “Which is the real deal?” = and for a woman to be so daring as to literally pull a family apart, rip it open and destroy other people’s lives without even so much as a 2nd thought….. I mean, Doug, i’m not the nicest person around, and my family is not the gentlest family in town, but even as hard-headed and egoistic as I am – I would never (God forbid) never destroy another person’s life like that, never crossed my mind. Never thought that a person could even look at him/herself in the mirror and face that face and think “It’s okay, what I’m doing is okay because it serves me! I am entitled to this”. And yet still pray and face your family?

          so, is he a good dad? Logistics wise, yes. He is very good. Discipline and time keeping, great.

          My message to my boys (12 and 9)? simple. Take away the cars, the big income, the looks etc, If you die today, would you be able to stand before GOD and say you led a good life. would you be able to keep your head up and say, “I truly have done all that I can, family, to live right by you…and please know that I truly love you”.

        • aida

          doug, sorry about the emo post. Actually, i’ve also started taking my own advice – which I gave to another poster on another one of the pages on Emotional Affair Journey – which was to back off and do the 180. and to live life happily. i been avoiding the family dinner table lately, in fact i’ve been avoiding him by keeping to my own corner of the house…

          But you know, we had a long holiday recently, in my country, for the the Chinese New Year – maid and driver were away on their respective leave – so, it was really just the 4 of us : hubby, me (with busted knee but I could walk and drive auto car), and 2 boys. hubby was pretty nice… On the start of the 4 day holiday he asked if i wanted to join him at his staff members’ wedding the next day. I declined. then he came up to me again and asked me if i wanted to take boys to karaoke with my sister and her husband that night – i said “sister’s out of town”. and when we drove to his mum’s house, and drove back – he said, we’ll buy lunch – prob my cooking was too bad. he kept asking me what I lunch I wanted and I had to tell him (twice) “no thanks, nothing for me”. and when we reached home (we have curb-side parking), he was silently scanning the road and suddenly asked, “Where is YOUR car parked?” (i was driving his merz). I mean, if you don’t care about me, why on earth do you need to ask me would i like to do this, would i like to eat that? where is my car?

          and prior to that, when I first hurt my knee a week before that, he came to me with this funny-looking face that said “I’m hiding something from you, but i’m gonna pretend it’s nothing, so i hope you are gonna play along with me”. So…. I played along…..

          and of all things – of all the things in the entire world he could’ve said to me – he said, “Hey, are you still using your broadband (which costs a lot of money). and i said, yes. and he said, “You should change providers and put in the package from this other service provider, and that way kids can surf the net to do their schoolwork and i can surf the internet too, and you can use your office internet access instead of paying for your expensive broadband services”.

          My immediate internal response was “HUH? you know that I’m gonna move out, and you know that the desktop belongs to me and you know that if i go, the desktop comes with me, so why are you asking me to go put in another provider now? What difference would it make to you or to the family what service provider we use NOW if we are are headed to divorce courts in a few months’ time anyway?” and then he started talking to me about this documentary that was coming on TV – it was about some project that some competitors were doing and he said that “that original proposal came from us but political intervention… yada yada yada…..(he came to may part of the house bcoz the other part that has the other TV was being occupied by the kids and their religious teacher for classes)…..

          Was that a test? to see my reaction? really?

          and then, over the next few days, my knee got really worse and he came over when he heard my older boy struggling to move the table for me and he lifted the chair from one part to the place where i would be sitting, and when I had set up my laptop for work, he told me “I thought you said that you were not going to work from home anymore, but yet……” — i had to work you see, my boss needed a powerpoint presentation and I was the only one who could do it.

          anyways, over the next few days, he kept asking whether i needed the driver to send me to work (he was really fretting over me) and when i said, well, it’s okay – not necessary, he goes “See, I knew it, I knew that you were going to reject it! I knew it!” and stormed off. not 1/2 hour later, he comes again and asked AGAIN, “So do you need the driver or not?” to which I replied “Oh….ok then, sure”.

          On the last day that I used the services of his driver, i told the driver, it’s okay, you can go off early today, coz i am going to be late today, and i think your boss needs you at 3 pm.

          Guess what, hubby calls me at 2p.m. and says, It’s okay you can have the driver, coz my meeting for 3pm has been cancelled. – well, doug, the driver waited around and again i sent him off….

          at 7 p.m. i received a text and a call from hubby “Do you need the driver to come get you?” to which I said, “It’s okay, I’m already in a taxi en route home”.

          so what do you think of that?

    • Rachel

      She his ex girlfriend from 30 years ago. He looked her up last february to see how she was doing. Visited her at her store and then took her out to four lunch dates and a number of text messages. Claims it was just fun! He totally shut me out of his life from feb. Until Nov. When I asked if we could go to counseling. He then told me he has been seeing his ex. Hes in love with her, they are soul mates, she brings out the best in him, they connected from thirty years ago, they click! Four hours later he said he didn’t me those words????

    • chiffchaff

      I gave my H a print out of some points I believed were important from this site about his affair and the reasons it happened. He said that it ruined his weekend away as he’d gone there thinking it would be fine with us and then he found my print out and it sent him ‘right back’ again.
      It seems that he thinks I’m having problems working on forgiving him, he doesn’t think that I have a huge problem with his complete lack of interest in working out just why he was so selfish in having a PA with someone who he didn’t know and admits didn’t fall in love with until much much later, after they’d had sex and engaged in sexting.
      He just seems to be so selfish, still. I don’t know how long I can put up with it.

    • chiffchaff

      How long does the ‘fog’ last? It was 5 months from Dday#1 to Dday#2. #2 was just over a month ago. In that time he has waivered from understanding how I feel, to ignoring how I feel, to saying hurtful things again and then not being able to recall saying them later. He’s making me feel like I’m mad not him.

      Is it possible that my H now blames me for all the pain he’s experiencing because if I hadn’t discovered his PA it wouldn’t be like this? Is that possible?

      • Bobse

        I could have written your first paragraph, except i’m 18 months out from dd#1. I’ve had several more since. I think I’m finally to the point that the desire to no longer endure the pain is greater than my desire to hold on to the relationship. I know what I need in the relationship, and now will not accept less just to have her back. My wife had/has ea’s, the things that come out of her mouth are unbelievable and yes she too doesnt remember them later. Atleast I will have no regrets, I tried my best.

        • chiffchaff

          I do have regrets but they are about things I cannot do anything about at all. If only I’d gone to Boston with him he would never have slept with her, she would have remained a lonely woman and maybe our marriage would have gradually improved again.

          When I’m away from my H, with friends, I find it much easier to contemplate leaving the relationship but that feels as much a fantasy as his second life with the OW was. Reality back at home is far more difficult. We live out in the sticks, surrounded by retired folk who don’t really interact much. We’re both feeling lonely and a bit isolated. Changing that is one of our first goals, in order to see if being nearer friends and family makes it easier to have fun and build our relationship positively.

          I do love my H, despite everything his done. I feel like he’s gone through a period of madness that he finds hard to even consider he did. I feel like that madness has passed to me, now I can’t see what’s left to hold on to. But maybe I’m just on a downward curve at the moment. I shall go and do something to try and cheer myself up.

      • aida

        Chiffchaff…..our husbands are no longer human….

        i don’t know whether mine actually recalls things he said….but he sure says a lot of things randomly….like he’s trying to cover up a lot of things. and I wish he would not lie, because he’s really bad at it.

        (you know, that’s the problem with lying….THE TRUTH HAS A WAY OF POPPING UP SOMEWHERE. i call that GOD’s justice).

        when i got back from london this october, i kind of blasted him about receiving text messages from OW (whom i suspected but had no proof yet), and he started to say, “Maybe I should tell you the truth…” but before he could say anything, i had already said “Whose truth? Your truth or other people’s truth?” – i remember just 12 months before that, when i first had an inkling of the affair (hey, i have spies in place)., and he said, “do you know that people are spreading rumours and I want to know who among my staff have told you about these things? I think my staff have not enough work to do”, and he actually told me a long story how he is actually well-liked by many people including some chief of police in some town somewhere and how people were just so hateful, didnt you know. He even singled out one girl who had the hots for him but somehow he did not pay her any heed….and yet she spreads rumours about him as payback.

        when i found out about the OW in 2011, I asked him “did that girl fly all the way to that European country where you were …. and entered your hotel room and key in those text messages that you sent to OW?” – OF COURSE he did not answer.

        how is that for weird?

        • Rachel

          Mine can’t remember why he said the mean things. This I have an issue with. He constantly changes the meaning of what he’s said. ” I didn’t mean it that way” ! Ugh! So frustrating! Not sure where I’m going now. Was 100% willing to work at this and now I feel empty. Anger for what he’s done and said. Tired. Is he really worth it? She can have him. After all he did say if he was a betting man he would bet that they will be together some day.

          • aida

            Hey rachel, – just wondering how you are today? haven’t heard from you for a long time.

            how are things?

            I hope you in the best of health.

    • rachel

      Has anyone heard of the Mort Fertel approach? He says get rid of books, therapists etc. Set aside problems and don’t talk about them. Put energy to try to connect and establish new relationship habits that bring positive energy to the marriage. Build good will with your spouse.
      That what my H and I were doing and things were getting better. But my therapist said if he doesn’t say that he is 100% committed to the relationship then he’s not really trying. Help!!! Opinions please!!!

      • ifeelsodumb

        If Mort Fertel can set aside a low down, lying, sneaking, SELFISH cheating spouse and live a happy life….Good for him..and while he’s living this positive, energy filled life with the above stated spouse…he might want to get use to being cheated on over and over again, because if there are NO consequences for the cheater….there will be no loyalty to the BS! As for me? Not on your life!

      • Lynne

        Okay, sorry in advance for this comment, but I’m pretty sure that “Mort” is a man (sorry Doug)! What did my man want to do? What have many of the women on this site commented on regarding their own H’s? THEY DIDN’T/DON’T want to talk about it. They prefer that we get over it and move on, so they don’t have to feel our pain and relive their crazy choices.

        Really, come on–any of of us that had cheated on their husband or wife would want to set it aside and not talk about it, if we didn’t have to. I realize there are a lot of different ideas on how to get through an EA or PA, but if you don’t deal with it when it happens, it’s likely to bite you on the butt again. Sorry Mort, I don’t buy it!!!

        • Doug

          Lynne and IFSD, I think that what Rachel is referring to is a technique that is more appropriate for a couple that might be experiencing troubles in their marriage, but not necessarily infidelity. Though you can also sort of look at it is a hybrid “180” or backing off approach.

    • rachel

      Doug is right. They didn’t have any cheating. They grew apart after the loss of three misscarriages.

      • chiffchaff

        Miscarriages seemed to play a big part in my situation. My H started going of the rails about the time I had a few miscarriages and we were finding it hard to keep going. We never really talked about it at the time, both said we were thinking of the other but that meant neither of us talked about it at all when we should have.

    • Surviving

      I also subscribed to Mort. No longer. His method is for infidelity as he himself had an affair. My husband did like it when I followed his advice…. But I could only last so long before my emotions would kick in and I needed a different approach, plus I did get tired of all the solitations to purchase his products email after email

    • rachel

      Not having a great day. Almost feeling like why do i want to rebuild after all of the very hurtful things that the H said to me. I almost feel guilty. I hear his words constantly in my head. Not sure how to get past them.

    • mil

      Doug, my H says that the reason he didn’t think about the consequences is that he never thought he would get caught!! I have to ‘admire’ the honesty of that answer and would like to ask you did you think about geting caught at all and weigh up the pros and cons or did you, like my H, never even had that enter your head??

      • chiffchaff

        mil – my H said exactly the same thing! He constantly said that he did not know what the consequences would be of his PA as he had truly thought he would never be caught. I just find that so hard to believe. The enormous denial is staggering, as EVERYONE knows what the consequences are of sleeping with someone other than your spouse while your still married. It’s ludicrous to suggest otherwise. It’s not that they didn’t know, it’s that they knew and chose to ignore it because otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to do what they did. B*stards.
        That my H has turned into such an enormous liar is another huge barrier to us long term. My family in particular will never believe a thing he says ever again.

      • Doug

        Mil, No I never thought about the consequences or felt I would get caught. I would venture to guess that no CS ever does.

      • Paula

        Yes, strange thing, as we all know the consequences, and to think you won’t get caught is staggering (that said, mine didn’t for the whole duration of the 15 month PA, only “discovered” when OW told me, a month or so after he ended it, so I guess he was right, he wasn’t going to get caught, lol, and the lengths he went to to ensure he wasn’t. OMG!!) It boggles the mind trying to come to terms with that idea, that they just KNEW they wouldn’t get caught, I aksed my OH if that meant there were others over the years that never got caught! I mean, what are you supposed to think about that?

    • aida

      dear rachel…. my heart goes out to you – and i am going to say something that i learnt from various sources : DON’T BELIEVE ALL THAT HE SAYS.

      like they say, “Talk is cheap”. Hey WE can say anything we want to, as well, but we don’t because we have a conscience. He is not to be trusted completely. Yes, some parts of what he said may be the truth, but he has not been completely honest with himself either because if he has he would see that he has a lot of mistakes for which he has yet to apologise. Just think of it this way…. if you had been so bad, and he had been so good, the marriage still had a chance of surviving and you would not be so sad right now right? the fact that you are still wanting to stick around proves that you are the sincere one, not him.

      and Dear Mil…..
      well, at least you know he was being honest. But like they say in my country “No matter how good a squirrel can jump from tree to tree, one day it’s still gonna fall flat on its face” – coz it missed a branch, or a hunter shot it down.

      One of the things that I like to do at times like these are listen to songs and read. Though I am not a Christian, i like the song by Dewayne Woods (i think) : Let Go and Let God, and the other song by Don Moen, God Will Make A Way.

      sometimes it’s the only thing to do….because God can see us down here …. and He is watching over us…..and I know that if I am good, then at least I’m doing right by God and by my kids, and that’s all that’s i can do right now. Because if anything, INTEGRITY WILL SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Integrity will be the best representation for me – hubby can blame me for everything. In addition, I have decided that if push comes to shove (either in court or with his family), i will accept what wrong i have done (I have done lots) with a sincere apology and hopefully, i will have the grace to remain a lady.

    • aida

      Doug, are u online? i’m kinda of hoping that you’d be here right now, coz i think i’d like your advice pronto.

      i mean have you ever been in a position where you know that something was the best option but in the end you find it really hard to do.

      our court endorsed counselling was supposed to be on 15 of feb. and when i injured my knee pretty badly recently, we wrote to the counselors asking if we could postpone it. there was no reply so he asked me – today – if there had been any feedback yet and after that i called the counselors and they said it would be in April or May, then.

      H said that he would much prefer it to be in Feb or in March instead and that kind of took me by surprise. when i said, gosh you are in a hurry, he said Well, i still can hear you asking for a divorce. and you know what? me and my uncontrollable pride and temper finally got the last word in “well, if you are in such a hurry, we just skip the counseling and go to the courts”. to which he replied with a shocked and small Oh!

      y’know, even with that the counselors say “Sorry, you have to wait till april or may”.

      after all this, i still feel a tinge of sadness. no….it’s more guilt. i have this temper and it has always made me vulnerable to asking for a separation. it’s prob my own inbuilt fight or flight mechanism and it’s taken a toll on my hubby. it’s taken a toll on me too. i hate getting angry….it’s not something that i enjoy. and the worst thing is = anger and pride make me say things that i regret later. is there such a thing as drunk on anger? and now, even as i know i promised to walk away and leave hubby to his little fun and games with his OW, it still leaves me with a burdened heart.

      but i guess my two boys helped me put things in perspective (and they are only 9 and 12) :

      (a) Mummy, stop worrying too much about Daddy. You worry too, too much about him. Stop thinking about him so.

      (b) well, mum, you have tried to make Daddy happy, you have tried to always ‘cheer him up’….. and yet he still goes to that Aunty (OW)…..

      Well, at least they see my attempts at changing – and that kind of helps.

      you know doug, i did try to change. did try to be closer to him, but i guess by then it was already too late. even at the most awkward moments, he’d come up with statements like “You cannot give me what I want”…it used to be “You cannot give me what I want, it’s as simple as that”.

      and naive me – over the past few years, when i had started to put in positive changes – he had stopped making that statement. i was just thinking to myself (just before i found out about things), i thought “Well, at least he had stopped making that statement’. turns out to be he was in the affair fog.

      am i making sense? I dunno why we rile each other up so much. maybe i’m such a bad person?

      • Doug

        Aida, Sure, I think everyone has been in that situation at some point in their life. Forgive me, but I’m having trouble understanding what it is you’re asking me. Is the court appointed counselors session equivalent to a divorce hearing? Sorry for my thickness!

        • aida

          sorry doug, i was rambling again/ have a lot of thoughts in my mind right now. those reading it must be thinking im mad.

          i guess what i’m trying to say is i asked for the divorce because i thought that was best.

          because he was so deep in the fog.

          because i thought he had given up on the me.

          i asked for the process – because he could not have his cake and eat it too.


          at the bottom of it, i guess i wanted the one to leave.
          not the other way around.

          and worse still, he refuses to even acknowledge it is becoz of his EA.

          he makes me feel like he’s doing it because i’m the one who is intentionally walking away from him. his ego is bruised i guess. but by his wanting to speed up the process, he is making me feel like i’m the bad guy and that he can’t wait to be rid of me. somehow he still manages to make me feel bad.

          why can’t he just admit that i’m walking away because of his affair. But nooooo…. when i asked why are you in such a rush to go thro’ the process, he gets all whiny and said, I still remember you are the one wanting the divorce.

          i mean like DUH?! …..but YOU ARE THE ONE HAVING THE EA!

          • Doug

            Aida, No worries. So is divorce really what you want? Or do you want him to end the affair and then try to salvage your marriage? Regardless, a cheater will find all sorts of excuses or rationalizations to shift blame away from himself. It seems that both you and your husband are quite head strong and I would suggest that before you do anything you calm down and think things through. Do not act on emotions or pride. Divorce is a serious thing and is quite complicated in many ways and you really need to think it through first. Talk to your attorney, religious advisor or some other trusted supporter who can help you with guidance.

        • aida

          he makes me feel like the separation/divorce/dissolution of our union is my fault.

          nothing to do with him….no sir, not at all.

          it’s me. me, who wants to walk out.

          funny thing. he places more emphasis on the walking out part rather than the reason for the walk.

          it’s always been like that. He places a lot of effort to prove that I’m wrong for making the decisions that i made, but never even once gave any consideration that maybe he contributed to my decision. It’s like “Humph …. so you are walking out on me….that means YOU’RE A BAD WOMAN”.

          and he refuses to see WHAT HE DID/IS DOING that has led to the “bad woman’s” decision.

          it’s always you wrong, you wrong…..i cannot ever be wrong.

          and if he DID acknowledge it would usually be in a very pissed of kind of way like “Okay, I AM THE ONE WHO’S WRONG!!!! yeah, everything is my fault okay!!!!” . then i’d have to reply “That’s NOT what I’m saying, i’m just saying that maybe you ought to consider ……”
          but by that time, he’d already be pissed off and he would not listen….what more consider anything.

          and that’s where it usually ends. he’d smoke, i’d ramble off and then go to bed….and he’d get all vengeful…and therein lies the vulnerability of man… he’d get all the support and love from OW and none of that from me.

          that’s why i ask, am i such a bad person? i mean, am I so bad, so stubborn, so proud that I can’t accept his criticism? Am I so wrong as a wife and woman that I can’ t keep my own ego down until another woman has to show me how she can keep my man?


        • aida

          the first affair he had….the first one that i knew of….two interesting results came out of THAT one..

          (a) he acknowledged this “Yes, i know what I did wasn’t good, but I didn’t get there on my own”…meaning that I’d contributed to his having an affair and lying about it.

          (b) he actually wrote to me : “i can see that the current Aida is better than the old Aida, but I’m already too hurt to (accept you…or something like that).”

          and after his 1st affair, he said that I should try looking for another man…. he actually said that. and that I should get a man first before he’d let me go (coz he’d worry about me, poor thing)…. and i said to the maid, How on earth am I supposed to have a man when I’m still married to him?
          Maid said, I think you should just stand at the corner and flag down any passing man?

          this year, near our son’s bday, we had a fight. and his email to me then read “if we can’t have a husband and wife kind of relationship, maybe we should start looking outside for happiness…..life is too short”. To which i replied, “What in the name of GOD……..?????? alright, if that’s what you want, please help me find a home ….I shall need to move out”. and his reply “YOU’re moving out already? ” and ever practical me said “Well, you’re the one who is saying THAT thing you just said…” and he went off on one of his ‘unexplained weekends away” – AND MISSED THE 11.00 AM Sunday deadline to help me go look for a house. and he kept repeating, You’re the one who wants to walk away, Your’e the one who wants to walk away…and I’m going like “What the heck? isn’t he the one who is telling me that we should start looking elsewhere”.

          it’s the same like this divorce thing.

          i’ll bet he thought it was all talk on my part, until i really started the official procedures. that’s my gut feeling about it.

          and i said to him “I’m doing this so you can be with her”
          and his feedback to her when she told him not to go ahead with it? the classic “We have no chemistry, so it’s hard”.

          I mean, at least have the honesty and the integrity to tell the OW, Well, you know Aida is doing it so that we can be together…..

          I mean, as far as I’m concerned he is the one who is walking out on me.

          am i going mad?

          • Doug

            No you’re not going mad, but I sense a huge communication gap between the two of you. I forget…have you guys been in therapy at all?

            • aida

              hey doug, i’m kinda low right now. it’s really ironic that i was up feeling on top of the world in the afternoon.

              roller coaster of emotions.

              it was really weird – i was feeling really sad that he had read his text messages in front of me today. it was like i was bringing a book to read right in front of him and he was holding his mobile phone up – and he was reading the phone with the complete poker face. it could be that he was just reading the news but i don’t think so….(suspicious, much?).

              I would have normally been at the computer but i had purposely brought the book round to him to be ‘in his vicinity’ but this was what i received.

              and the funny part was….it went on for several minutes. well, anyways, after that he took a smoke.

              hmmm… i dunno why but i felt like i’m going mad.

              after dinner – i dunno if he enjoyed the stuff – anyways, he decided to do a late night snack for himself. i was only meters away in the den yet i didn’t rise from my seat to go ask him what he was doing etc. i felt like i knew what his response would be like – he would not entertain me, and my thoughts were still flooded with “How could he?” “How could he” and there he was chopping onions and etc.

              so i did what no other woman would have…. I promptly took a nap to escape the situation.

              speaking of naps, it was really funny. on 9 feb 2012, he said that he’s interested to settle our divorce proceedings early coz i was the one asking for it.

              he slept for hours yesterday (from mid morning to late afternoon) which i take as a sign of undecidedness…..and stress. he sleeps off his problems. he smokes when he’s thinking, or stressed.

              am i going mad? was i wrong to let such thoughts flood me and then i end up feeling guilty for not helping / asking about him…

          • Lynne


            Are you saying here that he’s had more than one affair? Also, in this current situation, what does he say that he wants? Does he want to stay married and have the OW? Is he still with her?

            If he’s not ready to take responsibility for his actions (affair) and undertand his part in how you both got to this point (divorce), do you want him back?

            It sounds as if stepping back right now and really deciding what YOU want is important. It does sound as if you are both in a power struggle right now and not really hearing each other (or each others needs). Plus, it is not unusual for your H to have done this and not yet be ready to take responsibility, at a minimum, for his using an affair as an escape from your marraige.

            Is there any chance of calling a truce and getting into counseling together–perhaps a counselor could help you figure out whether you both want to stay married and work on it, or whether it is time to end it because it can’t be repaired.

            • aida

              yes dear. he’s had more than one. although i’m not sure exactly how many or whether he is committed to marry this current one / ones.

              between finding out about the first and the second, a ‘wall’ has been built in his heart against. no matter how hard i try, he always is emotionally unavailable to me.

              yes, dear. we have a power struggle going on. i kind of realised that some time last year.

              that’s why when other people say to me, they have had their husbands go on an affair and try to fix things up, i kind of get sad…. i know how hard the journey can be. when you do so much – anger, cajoling, loving, hating, smiling, crying, etc. – but you never win. never get back that loving feeling. not only did i not get that loving feeling, i seem to have lost mine as well somewhere along the way, when i found out about the gross misconduct he has displayed during his ‘affair fog’. do you know that sinking feeling you get when you find out “oh…so that’s why he was doing that at THAT time”, or “aaahhhh.. so that’s why he said that when said this”. and your realise she was there throughout….she was THE REASON. and you feel like you are drowning. with no way to get back to the surface.

              if victims of first affairs are keen to rebuild their marriages, my support to all of you.

              do i love my husband? yes, he has some very redeeming qualities. do I love him enough to want him back? Not in this state. if we want to therapy, does he want to work it out? No, he wants to go to marital counseling because he doesn’t want me to dump him – he wants it to be that he dumped me. which is perhaps a blessing in disguise because then it would seem that he’s taking the lead in this case and then if his mom or family asks, it’s still going to be him (LOL) and not me who’s doing this. (silly boy).

              the only thing is that he may concoct some story to justify himself……you know, i never really thought of that. well not to say that i’m stupid, but i really never thought that anyone should lie, so that’s why i really believed he would present the case as it really is….. as it really is…… hmmm….
              food for thought there!

              would a CS lie even to that extent? i mean, seriously?

            • aida

              dunno what happened to the last comment i typed. so in case THAT one doesn’t turn up, i’ll just type another one.

              yes, lynne: there’s been more than one.
              no lynne i don’t know if he is marrying her / them

              yes lynne as far as i know, they are still together (hahah . together – to get her).

              anyway, yes, as far as i know. they are still together. the first girl still texts him. but i don’t know if that one is still on.

              he doesn’t only have the 2nd girl’s mobile number, he has her office phone, her home phone and her dad’s phone numbers all in his mobile. how about that?

              i’m glad my father is not around anymore to see this….it would break his old heart. HAHHAHA. when i first found out about the first girl, and him mum told me, “you must treat us like your own parents and you must tell me if you have any problems”. so i did. she promptly fell ill. i got blamed. and he wrote to me – actually emailed me – and said he hadn’t told anyone about his suffering (during the marriage to me). how could he, he said, what was he supposed to tell anyone? the one sentence that he wrote that i remember to this day “Could I tell Papa (i.e. my dad) that he brought up his daughter wrongly?”.

              i never responded to that. and now, should i go up to him and ask him “Should I tell the girl’s dad that he brought up his daughter wrongly? so much so that she’d willingly text a married man, run off on unexplained weekends with a married man, drive him here and there – fully realising that he’d have to lie to his family to cover up?”

              I mean, lynne, i could not stand to be in the same room with him – when i know that he lied. i wanted to puke. literally. THE HEAD OF MY FAMILY – the one that i told my kids to respect and obey – and we all tried to keep home tidy for, the one that i tried to cook for, etc. – the one that we tried to ‘cheer up’ (as said by own boys). that same man who asked the boys whether they’d performed their obligatory prayers – yes, that same man would actually do what he did. like Doug said, he’s in his fog. YET THAT IS THE SAME MAN WHO NOW IS GOING AGAINST TIME TO BEAT ME TO THE COUNSELOR’S OFFICE as a preliminary step to the divorce courts.

              during the first and the second DDAYs, there have been many ‘dates’. my friend told me his staff found him and the first girl on dates and they’d tell her about it – even after DDay #1. even after i told him off….. yes, they were still at it.

              and DDay#2 didn’t make a dent in his campaign with girl 2.
              not sure about the other girls whose photos i found in his iphone.

              i don’t know what he is going to tell the courts, and what he is going to tell his family. coming from a Muslim Far Eastern family, it’s going to be a tough one to explain. having said that, my family is more modern than his, so i don’t know if he going to concoct a different story for them. whatever it is, maybe it’s GOD’s blessing in disguise….(you know GOD, HE’s always several steps smarter than us)….if hubby rushes to go to court and makes it known that he is in a rush, then it’ll seem like he really wants to be rid of me. and whatever way u look at it, i have a strange feeling that it’s not going to go down well with his family. and if the office found out…..(they already know he’s been carrying on with this girl behind my back), that’s going to be another sensation…. (well, that he dumped me ….. to get her?).

              in no way is going to win this one. and judging from my own interactions with my in-laws, so far we seem to be getting along well. i’m just me, and my mother in law seems to be okay with me. she’d not shun the second wife (if there is one) though.

              that’s why i always say, try to do what is right and don’t cover up. don’t lie. don’t lie. don’t concoct stories. don’t pretend. don’t get yourself into a fog. live life right. because at the end of the day, the truth has a way of creeping up on you. that’s why i always say to my sons : today is his day, let him have his way. (of course my older boy said “It seems like EVERY DAY is his day, mum. When’s your turn?” – hahaha. i said, just wait. ) if you live right, GOD will grant you your justice.

    • aida

      lynne, and friends,

      allow me to share one story with you – i guess this is in the Bible too….but this one is from the Quran. i just felt like sharing : it’s just a story – but the wisdom behind it:

      Throughout the Qur’an, we see glimpses of the perfect wisdom of Allah in His Plan and Decree. One amazing example is the story of Prophet Musa’s `alayhi sallatu wa sallam (may Allah send His peace and blessings on him) mother. She was put through a great trial but she prevailed because she put her trust in Allah first. Allah subhanahu wa ta`la tells us her story:
      “When We inspired to your mother what We inspired, [Saying], ‘Cast him into the chest and cast it into the river, and the river will throw it onto the bank; there will take him an enemy to Me and an enemy to him.” (Qur’an, 20:38-39)

      Umm Musa wanted to protect her infant son, but she was told to do something that seemed to be the complete opposite of protecting him. Allah (swt) not only told her to throw her baby in the river, but that the one person she was trying to hide him from would be the one to find him! Allah (swt) comforted her, “…Do not fear and do not grieve. Indeed, We will return him to you and will make him [one] of the messengers.”(Qur’an, 28:7).

      When we trust in God – even if you feel overwhelmed – God will bless you for it and He will guide you. Oftentimes we know what is the right thing to do, we know how to take that first step to God but we are scared.

      Umm Musa was also scared, but she threw her baby.
      So don’t be afraid. Throw the baby.

    • Lynne

      I am truly sorry you’re going through this, Aida. One affair may be a mistake that can be rectified and healed, but two or more…..well, does it really matter which one of you calls it and gets the divorce. And does it really matter that he wants to be the “dumper”. Does it really matter what he says at all about anything right now. I know it hurts terribly, but what matters most is you and your children, not his blah, blah, blah.

      Getting space from him right now might be the best thing you could possibly do–I no that none of it makes any kind of rational sense–yet it never does when someone is lost in la, la land!

      • aida

        Doug, Linda, Lynne tell me something. tell me whether this is enough to make a man hate me :

        (a) my strong passionate commitment to work – so much so that I am willing to work nights and early mornings to get office work done.

        (b) being afraid of not meeting my boss’ needs & benchmarks but pretty much not meeting my own husband’s benchmarks

        (c) not sleeping with him even when he gets home later than my bedtime or when he chooses to ignore me when i do lie down next to him

        (d) having a temper – and a pretty tough mentality to boot. I am more comfortable with non-emotional work (i’d be a good Rambo) :

    • aida

      by the way, lynne, just in case you thought he was completely a goner :

      (a) he invited my Dad to live with us when my younger sister was overseas, and my baby sister went to study in a university far far away.

      (b) he allowed me to go visit my father almost every weekend (even when newly married)

      (c) when we had our first baby – i used to cook every weekend and take food to my father’s place – my mum had died just before we got married.

      (d) he gave 10,000 bucks to my sister for her wedding last December


      so, he has redeeming qualities.

      and may not be as lost as he could have been.

    • aida

      For lynne rachael and everyone :

      The Survivor Psalm

      I have been victimized.
      It was in a fight that was not a fair fight.
      I did not ask for the fight.
      I lost.
      There is no shame in losing such fights.
      I have reached the stage of survivor and am no longer a slave of victim status.
      I look back with sadness rather than hate.
      I look forward with hope rather than despair.
      I may never forget, but I need not constantly remember.
      I was a victim.
      I am a survivor.

      — Dr. Frank Ochberg

    • aida

      Doug, i have a real question this time : there are primarily two main schools of thought when it comes to ‘getting cheating husbands back from their OWs”

      I have dismissed the ones that say : you should arrange dates and/or tell him how the family needs him etc. coz that seems to only irk my husband.

      i like the ones that say Get a Life and maybe that’ll show him that you are an interesting woman with your own life and happiness – and you’re not a doormat. the trouble with that is that it’s a risk : if the husband believes that you are really better off without him and he is just glad to remove you out of his life.

      The other gurus said “you should try to win him back with loving actions” – that is if he really wants to even accept your loving actions. i had tried my best to change and be more loving but i guess i was not loving enough. not compassionate enough, coz i still lost my man. I didn’t place enough emphasis on his interests….. or is that just an excuse.

      having said that – what do you think i should do?

      • Doug

        Aida, Unfortunately there is no cookie cutter way to “get a cheater back.” In my opinion I think you have to take elements of each approach. You need to back off a bit, work on yourself, etc., but at the same time, try to reconnect – which you can do with loving actions and such. If you haven’t already, I would read several different books and decide which approach – or combination of approaches – would work best in your situation.

    • Holding On


      I guess the thing that really sticks out from your posts is that you both need to sit down and have that “hard” conversation, full of honesty. You have to tell him what you have written. I think that is the only way that you will really feel you gave this your best effort to save your marriage in the end.

      I think you should admit that you were devestated and hurt. That you spoke out in anger many times. You DO want to save the marriage, but you don’t want any other women in the marriage. You admit to ________ (your weaknesses that we all have, but admit to your specific ones that has made an impact on the marriage. Apologize for those. (And try not to be thinking about ALL HIS FAULTS…of course HE has many, too, but you are taking a higher road and doing a very difficult talk to attempt to save this. Maybe he will reciprocate with his on realizations of things he has done…but maybe not…

      Restrain that pride that just wants to yell and say, “Go then if that is who you love!” We have all been there, I think. I know I’ve said stuff like that! Hold that back.

      And maybe set up the discussion before hand? Tell him you want to talk and you need 30-1 hour of his time, without the kids and distractions. Set up the ground rules – no yelling or storming off, make a list, etc. Whatever will help you stay focused with things you would want him to know.

      You both need to figure out together if the marriage is something you both want to improve and work on and stay in. Unfortunately, it needs two willing partners, even if it is just a willingness to keep trying.

      And even then, you might be prepared to have this heartfelt, honest talk and he might not be in the right place. If this happens, I suggest a letter that would have your points spelled out, that he could read over and reread. That he can’t say that YOU wanted the divorce, because you would have told him that you were speaking out of hurt and anger, that you regret jumping the gun on an important decision.

      Anyways, just my thoughts. It seems like it would be so sad to do the divorce and have all those regrets and wonder if it could have been saved. To let the emotions run this marriage ahead to divorce, when possibly both of you would have been willing to improve and change. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. It is not an easy road.

      PS – Loved the idea of “Throw the baby!” I need to do that a bit more and trust God. He is telling me my marriage can be good, to trust him, but I fear. I also loved the survivor psalm.

      • Doug

        Aida responded to our email by mistake…

        Here is her reply:

        dear holding on,

        thank you. i guess the anger is still there because of the changes i made yet it came to naught. it takes years to be rid of the anger. i know from the first affair.

        he managed to push my buttons again the day before when he suddenly mentioned that he wanted to speed up the process of counselling etc.

        i knew i wanted to go thro’ with divorce but in the end, i guess i was too pissed when i heard him say that he didn’t want to wait until april or may.

        holding on, i guess it’s my own characteristic of ‘power’. someone here said that there is a power struggle. it may be that i will have this problem with any man i have a relationship with. so maybe i should just work on that and ignore whatever else comes – i mean ultimately it’s no good working on the relationship if he is still going to push my buttons and i’m gonna react the wrong way.

        the thing is i have a major pride issue. it did not help that i was always put down a lot when i was a kid. long story. i was told i was not good enough and i wasn’t smart enough and somehow i never felt that i was accepted. i married because i thought i could be accepted. he married because he thought he would be adored.

        major problems arose when i kept to my independent streak and he kept to his ‘i am king, listen to me!’ attitude.

        it’s not that i don’t love him, but he wants me to be ‘adoring’ and feminine which i am just not yet.

        i take the high road because that’s what has kept me going all these years. trying to do the right thing. not lying. not cheating. i like to have a ‘map’ of sorts. tells me where i am. tell it like it is. solve the problem. fight it out, but at least put cards on the table.

        he keeps his best stories for OW, because she listens, she cares and she apparently loves him. she keeps saying things like “Miss you” or “I miss our closeness”. am i angry about that? course i am.

        most of all, i’m angry with myself. that i wasn’t wise enough, wasn’t caring enough, wasn’t loving enough.

        most of all, i’m sorry i am me. yet if i can’t be me…..who am i supposed to be.

    • aida

      thank you doug and holding on.

      i will remember both your messages. thank you for your advice.
      honestly, i have tried to be loving etc, but it failed. so i’m now just giving him lots of space ; almost no contact.

      holding on…..
      i need to work on myself first. he managed to still push my buttons and i lost it when he told me he wanted to rush the counselling and filing process.

      that was unexpected. but i guess he got angry and hurt that i wanted to go ahead with the process. i dunno. his driver said that he had been sullen throughout the past two days. even his staff at the office noted his sullen mood. which was a real weird one, because he had been acting ok recently. anyways, he is a good actor. he had acted so well, or i have been so trusting.

      i wonder whether he’s been under pressure from ‘the other side’ – well i dunno. i know she’s been talking to him about ‘the future’, and how sad she is that she can’t be ‘sharing a home with Love i.e. him’.

      he told me that he wanted to rush our official process because he still remembers that I asked for divorce. he can always give me any old reason and i’d believe it.

      but having said that – i need to work on my own issues first – i am stubborn, thick headed and proud : all the makings of a mule (or a lion, king of the jungle ….. whichever i’m in the mood for).

      i have made SOOOO MANY mistakes that i can’t even begin to unravel and work on it ALL. however, it seems like it’s too late….. my positive changes have been in vain, and he has come up with millions of examples of how i failed.

      i need to work on my mule-ness before i get involved with another man – hopefully someone who has less of an ego : i need to learn humility and being humble means going back to the basics : going back to God and living right. i like having a ‘map’ or a strategic plan of action….. that keeps me sane. it tells me where i am supposed to go. what i am supposed to be doing. i’m not the most disciplined but i guess it helps me keep my head above water. it keeps me sane.

    • aida

      i’ve been reading – trying to find some sense in all of this : found this on a Christian site : share?

      Let Go: Let God Fill Your Need

      By Mary Kupferle

      If you are anxious, tense, or concerned about anything in your life, dear friend, begin now to relax, let go and let God fill your need.

      No matter what seems to be missing from your life-be it a much loved person, a special place, an activity of great value or a feeling of well-being – release and let go, knowing that God is right now filling your need.

      Take a deep breath. Release it slowly, telling yourself quietly: I let go, I let God fill my need.
      Accept the reality that God’s wisdom is ever present and available, ready to fill you with new understanding, light and life. Let God fill every void, every emptiness that seems to separate you from the desires of your heart. Let go! Let God fill your need.
      God’s light and substance and divine activity will come forth and move in and through you as you let go. God’s creative process is awaiting your acceptance of its productive, healing action. Let your thoughts be lifted up. Let the presence of God dissolve your fears and doubts and fill every gap of unbelief. Let go and let God within you do the work.
      Begin now to relax from the strain and effort of questioning, planning and reasoning.Take a few moments throughout the day to calm your thinking and place all your attention upon the words: I let go: I let God fill my need.

    • aida

      i have been reading everyone’s stories both here and on other forums and it made me very sad : I am going thro’ something really sad too. so all this was making me really down. This morning i was really down – felt really sad because i kept thinking He hates me – he has hated me for years – he has been pretending. He hates me he hates me he hates me he hates me.

      In my sadness, I made a call to home from work and i kind of bugged my sons “Mommy’s sad” and they were like “Please don’t talk about THAT again”.

      I struck me – what the heck am i doing? After that i decided “IT’s Make Myself Happy Time!!”. I texted him THANKING HIM for rushing the D process : i told him it gave me a lesson in humility; it helped me to see that life cannot be run solely on my own timeline. I said I wondered if he was hurting too… (note I did not apologise – on purpose) ….

      (it may be a good move, it mayn’t … but i figured why the heck not? I don’t have anything more to lose anyway.)

      i searched the net for stories about how affairs saved marriages – and found a story about a couple whose marriage was saved after the wife presented him with divorce papers and kicked him out. She had cancer – but eventually she recovered, took kids to Disney to prove that life will continue with or without Daddy. and then the husband sort of invited himself on the same trip and they reconnected.

      so in my case, I decided to offer him the olive branch….i invited him to come with us to the Theme Park tomorrow. he has not replied, but i figure he may not come.

      I have also found some nice excerpts from my 600 page journal that I’ve been keeping since end December as a way to help me recover – its just a mixture of stuff i cut and pasted from various sources on the internet : share?

      YOU WILL COME OUT THE OTHER SIDE A VICTOR, INSTEAD OF A VICTIM. Infidelity is a mask that hides an unwillingness to rise above and be strong. That is why it is a temptation. Strong people do not resort to infidelity. Infidelity is a fatal flaw of inner weakness.

      You always want for your spouse to know that you care deeply about them and the marriage. At the same time though, you also want it to be clear that you care enough about yourself to remain busy and vibrant and that you are not be hanging on your spouse’s every word or whim.I think it’s perfectly fine to limit or time your availability just to make it appear that you are handling yourself just fine. However, you don’t want to take this to extremes. Doing so shows a lack of respect toward your spouse.Remember, everything you do to someone comes back 3 fold.
      So he will get a dose of his own medicine without you doing anything to feel bad about.

      If, as previously stated, this affair is one which ends your marriage, then once again, you have to begin portraying the image of the BEST YOU that you can possibly be.

      Even Though You May Feel Broken, Torn, Ashamed, And Empty, You Must Always Put Your Healthiest Looking Self Forward.

      You Must Not Allow Him To See You Walking Around Angry, Depressed, Homicidal, Suicidal Or Pitiful.

      Your Goal Should Not Be To Make Him Feel Sorry For You So He Will Want You Back, Your Goal Should Be To Present Yourself As The One Who Got Away,
      Or As If To Say, “See What You’re Missing, You Fool”.

      Your decency will shine through this sordid story like a beacon…rise triumphantly from the mess he made of your lives. “

    • aida

      linda…..i sometimes ask Doug bcoz i wanted to get a man’s opinion about the situation. but i’d like to ask you a very pertinent question. all thro’ this ’emotional affair’, i think the most troubling aspect for me – apart from his lying and cheating and all of that – was my own errors. i feel immense guilt – whenever i got angry (extremely angry) with him, i’d think about leaving and sometimes i would actually suggest that I leave. it’s like holding this marriage up for ransom or something. maybe i was into the fight or flight thing and i don’t have the right coping mechanisms either. [now i fee pathetic and guilty, and i feel bad….like seriously guilty. it hurt the man i was supposed to love for the rest of my life.] sometimes, he’d tell me what to do, etc, and try to make me fit his mould and I’d get angry – frustrated. i’ve often felt that way – even when we were dating. I used to tell him that no matter what if there was a girl and a sexy red dress, and the girl did not fit into that red dress – he said that no matter what he wanted that girl to fit into that red dress. all thro’ before we were married. and i hate the tense situation that now envelops our home. it used to be ‘home’ when the kids would do their homework and stuff. and yet…..he did what he did. and now, i’m feeling like i was VERY wrong, and I had killed the love he had for me.
      it’s kind of mixed up. i mean, i know that i had changed a lot over the years – be more supportive (but not cuddly or chummy), i was always busy with home/work stuff. and now i feel like a real bad person for not giving him the love he deserves and that my behaviour had only pushed him further into the other woman’s arms.

      p/s : but he himself had built a wall so that a lot of the times he was emotionally unavailable but i guess he was waiting for me to come for him, but i was instead waiting for him to come to me?

      and now when he tried to rush the counseling and filing proceedings, i become paranoid and told him “Well, if you are in such a rush we could skip counselling and go for the courts directly!” , at which he gave a startled, pained cry of “Oh!”

      I don’t get it. if he was so keen to rush the counseling, why be surprised when i wanted to skip it and go for the courts instead. is that what he wanted – or not.

      And I hate, absolutely hate the way he still manages to push my buttons – i was patient and forgiving – yet he comes with his crazy idea of rushing things and when I get backed up into a corner, i become defensive and say something i truly regret. Even if he did what he did, like i said in one of my earlier postings, we have known each other for 20 years. Why did I have to hurt an old friend?

    • aida


      sorry my questions : got lost in there somewhere.

      (a) if I really want to be a better person (not just better wife) why am i still reacting negatively? why can’t I have a better hold of my own senses/reactions?

      (b) am i truly a selfless, heartless – couldn’t care less – monster?

      (c) WHY DO I KEEP HURTING MY HUSBAND? Why do i get riled up so easily the moment i see him? I used to be less riled up but it hasn’t been an easy 16 years…

      but i don’t want to hurt him. i don’t. i really don’t. i know he’s hurting inside and so am i….. I just can’t wait for me and the kids to have our own place.

      Linda, I don’t want to hurt him anymore…. and I’m so afraid that I might if i get angry again. so i keep away from him and yet sometimes when I do near him, he’s on his mobile – checking thro’ the text or something, and I get riled up.

      sometimes just watching him interact so ‘normal-ly’ with his family and mine makes me want to puke. it’s like “I know your secret, and yet you are so good act acting as if there is nothing wrong?” i mean, the guy has absolutely no guilt, no remorse. i don’t know if he has it inside, which he is pretty good at hiding….

      • Holding On


        I relate to those questions. I have become so much more negative, angry, and horrible to my husband since the EA. I forget that we are a “team” trying to recover from this. I think it is your hurt and pain. We all have to find a better way to communicate our hurt and pain. Probably more so if you already deal with a short fuse that is quick to anger.

        I think it is great that you are acknowledging his hurt and not wanting to hurt him. Good for you. I think you BOTH are just lashing out in hurt and anger. He is hurt that you wanted the divorce, so he wanted to rush the counseling “for you”. You are hurt that he wanted to rush it, so you said to head to the courts “so he can be done faster”. Do you really want to call it quits with him or do you want to stay in the marriage and work at it? It sounds to me there is a desire on BOTH of your parts to not end this marriage.

        I think the admittance that you realize and regret the actions you did in the marriage. That you can see the “foundation” that the marriage was in previously. That you see that there were bad things from the both of you. This is a beneficial realization whether you divorce or not.

        I guess I suggest really deciding if this is a marriage you want to save or not. It feels like you both might be willing? Will he stop this contact with this OW?

        Good luck, Aida.

        • aida

          hey, Holding On, y’know what….

          Firstly, THANKS for replying. You don’t know how difficult this is for me and i’m sooooo glad someone answered.

          i was re-reading my post and questions to Linda, and I realise that somehow, my ‘definition’ of ‘home’ seems centered on the family. i thought about my earlier posts and questions to Doug and realised that i kept saying how it was a dishonour to the family – i.e. he hurt the commitment to FAMILY.

          and you know – it realise one main thing. i was thinking about family as a unit but i never really gave enough emphasis on ‘marriage’ as a unit.

          it was more like ‘what we did’ – homework and etc. – but not so much on ‘who we are’ as a couple. we disconnected a long time ago. i guess i just got wrapped up in life and so he fell down in ranking and he got lost in the crowd. but he was not good in expressing his desires – he grew frustrated and instead of figuring out new ways to tell me old needs, he just gave up. it is like he literally just gave up and decided to have affairs.
          and the worst thing is that he’d just have these ‘affairs’, he hurt the marriage AND THE FAMILY more than he could ever imagine.
          and i think he himself is shocked and horrified that we have reached this stage – but in his egoistic situation he has refused to leave someone who is giving him the attention and adoration he needs.
          that’s why he has maintained his OW as well as kept a close eye on the kids, because it seems like those aspects are what are important to him now. not me.
          in one of his emails last year – when i found a clue (yet another one) of his yet-unknown EA – he said that I should stop pretending like I cared about him. Of course we could say that it is just a cover-up line, but it seems really odd that he should come up with that statement – and i know that deep inside he is hurting about the seemingly intended cold shoulder that I gave him. and instead of going up to him now to apologise or give him a hug. why should i hug him when the last time i asked for one he angrily said “Go sleep somewhere else, you snore!” and the next thing i know – when i checked his phone – turns out that at that precise moment he was texting OW.

          Usually when I remember this moment in time, i become very angry and anger blinds my heart and mind, and i just become engulfed in this white anger. I forgot that in Islam it is said that anger is the tool of the devil for the cursed one is made of fire and hence heat and fire are his tools, so when you are angry, you become like a rubber ball in the hands of a child where the devil would just bounce you along along to its whims and fancies. and it is also said that in the realm of the devil-hood. among the devil brood that breaks up Muslim families and thus prevents God-worshipping from becoming strong, that particular cursed one will be honoured in position.
          after reading your views tonite Holding On, i thought to myself that Yes, I HAVE come a long way in facing this challenge. Yes a lot of times, my husband and I have been so wrapped up in our own anger and frustrations that we have failed to try – because we think it is not going to matter anymore. and to top it all off, i was reading some ‘marriage sites’ that say Indifference (where my husband is at) will mean the end of the marriage and there would be a lot of repair work needed if the marriage is to be saved. and this creates a lot of fear and when fear sets in, it becomes negativity and it festers in your mind and soon, it becomes its own reality.

          For instance, i am now intimidated by the idea of this OW being more attractive than me – well, honestly, the only hold she’s got on my husband is her ‘caring and undivided’ attention the poor dear has been craving for. I know that if I were to go hug him now, he will surely back away from me and think i’ve gone loco. and i will take that as a sign to stop trying.

          should i try? i don’t dare to…..really – the thought makes me both sick with fear and sick with hatred. the former is becoz it might hurt me, the second is because the last time ….yada yada yada.

          but then, thanks for pointing out that it seems like he might be willing to save it as well. I am doubtful (because I assume that OW means = HATE MY WIFE).

          ohmyGOD. what the heck am i elaborating so long – it’s 3.40a.m. in Kuala Lumpur (that’s where we are now).

          thanks Holding On. you have helped me tremendously today. i’m gonna try to go hug him though ….it makes me sick….BUT I ALREADY SAID THAT.

          • Holding On

            I’m glad I could be that answer for you. Yes, I am struck by the both of you, how this marriage and family could possibly be saved if both of you are willing to put away your pride and turn towards each other.

            I think with that hug, you have to take a leap of faith that says, I haven’t treated you the way you’ve needed and you have gotten that from someone outside our marriage. It was wrong and it pains me. However, I want to work on this. I have hurt you, I let you fall down in the ranking and we have disconnected. I want to try to fix this. I want you to stop contact with the other woman and commit to our marriage and family. Can you do this?

            Hard words, yes. You are in pain, you are hurting, you are angry. I think you have to put that aside for the moment and find out where his mind is at, especially if he knows where your thoughts are – your realizations, your regrets, your desires.

            Maybe he will shove away and do something hurtful, or maybe something you say will prick him. Make him realize that he doesn’t want to tear apart his marriage, his family. That if you are willing to try, he can try also?

            I think you need the words. I think with just a hug, he will likely pull away. But maybe the words will cause him pause. Good luck!

            • aida

              hey, holding on, how are you doing?

              thanks for your support – i did the touch thing but i’m sorry i didn’t do the words because it was 4 am. and i didn’t think he wanted to hear that at that time.

              i did the ‘touch’ – not a full blown hug, it didn’t really go down all that well. but from another perspective, it was not too bad. i went into is bedroom – he was facing the other way and his phone (as God permits) under this side of the pillow (usually it is under the other side). so i kind of just gave him a gentle nudge and asked, can i hug you? and he replied gently hmmm… a few minutes later he asks, You said you wanted to go out – so go out. i said, no i said can i hug you. to which he reacted kind of angrily. his breathing got kind of shallow and harder but still within quiet library mode. he scratched that part of his shoulder where i touched him, i just gave him a couple of gentle taps on his shoulder instead.

              then he kinda moved away from me a bit and said “It is so warm (didn’t you know)” and yes it was a rather humid night.

              he put a soft pillow between us. I did not remove it. I just let it be where he lay it. i did not move my hand to touch his. there was a time when our elbows touched briefly but i neither moved forward not did i intensify the contact. i must have dozed off – he startled me with ‘you snore!’. and then he fell asleep and three minutes later he was snoring.

              so i kind of let that slide, and throughout the one to 1.5 hours i was with him , he did not sleep a peaceful sleep – he kept checked the clock 2-3 times and the best part?

              the best part was during that time (4 a.m. to 5 a.m.) text messages came in thrice (good God, doesn’t that girl need need her beauty sleep?). she’s obsessed. y’know for a girl to be that obsessed over a married man and for her to be chasing him down like nobody’s business – somehow i get this feeling that if they really end up together with me out of the picture – she is going to be very controlling and very possessive. plus she isn’t going to be very forgiving. YES I KNOW IT IS UNFAIR TO MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT SOMEONE I DON’T EVEN KNOW but i am guessing this is gonna be the case.

              but i am proud of myself in a way. that night, when he said i was snoring, or when he sort of made many gestures that indicated he didn’t really want me to be there…. i didn’t huff and puff and blow his house down like i may have done. i didn’t express my anger, my frustration. I didn’t go hugging him close until he couldn’t breathe.

              do you really think that

            • aida

              hey holding on, guess what i got back late from work last nite and he was home – he told me that he would be going out of town Friday nite to Sunday. and again Monday – Tuesday.

              Funny thing is – Monday Tuesday trip i can understand.

              but the weekend trip is the same kind of trip that he used to take last year : and sometimes when he’d go, he would get someone to ‘pick him up’. we would not know who the ‘picker-upper’ was, or sometimes he would go out with a friend he says – just for a short while – and next thing i know he has to walk out a few meters to an unspecified location to be picked up by said friend. I always wondered who that friend was and why he could not just be dropped off right in front of the house.

              well, guess what? this time, he’s given me enough heads up time (It’s dawn Wednesday) and he is going on Friday for his weekend trip…. so…… I have asked someone to hire me a P.I.

              Why not? It’ll be a great way to shut either me or him up. either way, we have it in the open.

              I am his wife. at least I still am on paper. and I have the right to know where he is….(in case anything happens….well, you know …..LOL!)

        • aida

          Oops sorry – holding on – in speaking about the devil and destruction of families, it is said that

          when the King Devil sits on its throne (well, i suppose like the Grand Papa of the other devils) – the question goes out to the cursed congregation : who did what evil deed today to destroy humanity?

          one devil would say he did some bad thing….and the answer is “yeah, same ol’, same ol’. okay what else?”

          and the other one would say “I managed to ….” and the feedback would say “Yeah, so?” (well NOT exactly but that’s just a little bit of humour thrown in).

          and then the most desired answer comes : “I managed to break up a Muslim family today – make them divorce” and then the King Devil says “Ah! my beloved, come sit next to me on this throne” .

          Because when a family breaks up, the foundation gives way, and the members become focused on their own wants and desires and they become fragmented and unity is lost. when there is no unity, there is no strength, and when there is no strength the religion grows weaker and weaker. and then ultimately, the is less emphasis on God and worship.

          the breaking apart of any Muslim family is allowed but frowned upon. I mean God says it’s permitted on certain grounds, but if possible, it’s best to not encourage it.

    • Fist Timer

      To Aida

      I havnt posted to you, because I myself have no real advice to give you.. I will leave that to others who have more knowledge than I do on eo or pa.. I have been thru some tough times like everyone else here.. But I just wanted to post and check up on you.. are you OK? I have been reading your posts and my heart goes out to you. And I noticed you havn posted in a few days and I just wanted to say, you are a brave women, loving and caring soul. I applaud you for taking the step you did to try to reach out to you husband.. How is everything going, and pardon me if I over looked this in your post, but did he go with you and your kids on the outing you and your kids were taking? Please if you feel the need to vent go ahead, I have read your post and can realate to you emotional roller coster ride.. I am thinking of you and wishing you the best!!!

      • aida

        Dear First Timer,
        Hi there! i’m surprised to hear from you —- i’m surprised anyone even cared…

        Honestly, you think too highly of me, First Timer. I can be quite a lioness when I am angry. It doesn’t go down very well with a strong headed husband like mine.

        and i’m a little bit ashamed that i did seem to be on a roller coaster ride – but i figure everyone who’s been here on this page, has gone on a roller coaster ride anyway.

        guess what. the P.I.s are tailing him right now. (hahahah Don’t mess with Aida).

        with regards to not posting for a few days….things have been busy at work. PLUS the fact that my personal life seems to be very confusing right now. PLUS the fact that I have been quiet because i almost jumped off the 10th floor of my office building one night (well, the thought of my kids crying Mommy! Mommy! kind of pulled me back to reality).

        just a few quick questions to anyone of you reading this (including First Timer):

        (a) How much to believe and what to disbelieve : i went to an alternative healer a couple of days ago. Don’t ask but she ‘scans’ the ‘unseen’ : it was just on impulse. I decided that i was so annoyed by the unsuccessful hug incident that it kind of made me go bananas for a bit.
        okay, i know it’s crazy but i thought – heck, i’ve come this far, what have i got to lose, i just have to promise myself that i would not believe 100% on what she says…. it can’t hurt to try. No, it’s not like looking into a crystal ball, just … i dunno,…. “seeing?” . Well, anyways, she was right on a few counts like he has a VERY VERY HIGH ego, which is true. he seems ‘in love’ with her, which is very true (well he could just be in the affair fog – that i dunno). and she is pressuring him to marry her (the tramp!).

        the thing is it’s also very scary because in Islam, polygamy is allowed, but you have to ABSOLUTELY fair to your wives. if he is keen to marry her under Islam’s polygamy laws, even if he IS more than financially capable to support two families, he is certainly no poster boy for the fair treatment of The-Women-In-Your-Lives category. So that’s what making me really nervous. In Islam the wife has EVERY RIGHT to file for a divorce on her own – under her own name – if she is treated unjustly, but knowing my husband, it’s gonna be ugly (and i don’t want ugly, i want amicable). — don’t know whether this is a question = more like a comment.

        (b) okay, a REAL question : guilt (mine). i know that in our 20 years together (16 of them married) – i have had some serious serious issues with ‘closeness’. i have always been a loner, EVER SINCE I WAS A LITTLE GIRL, and I loved that. I don’t know how to NOT be a loner, how to NOT be independent, how to NOT make my own decisions. and it hurt him, because he needs an adoring wife (don’t all men?) – and if i keep on like this, i would get into trouble with ALL men in ALL my future relationships too.

        How do i not be that way?

        (c) Remorse : i put this separately because in a way it is separate. I feel deep remorse for my impulsive nature, how i used to talk talk down on him when i get riled up.
        i’m trying to find ways to manage my temper – but how do i change? Hubby said I will never change – and to some extent, he HAS been proven right already in the past.
        (hahahah> all this time, i disobeyed him, and NOW (when he complaints about me,) NOW, I want to obey him and take in what he says???? quite funny, that!

        (d) apology : i’m keen to apologise to him : not just because of my remorse, but because i really do care bout him….well, we have known each other for half of my life and it’s like — well, at one point we shared a life, a marriage – and it was like, we were together in a way. we dated (exclusively?) hmmm…don’t know about him…but im guessing we did. How do i apologise to an old friend? no scratch that : an old acquaintance?

        If i apologise, he’d never believe me anyway and it would seem like i’m begging or pleading – even I think it seems like I’m begging or pleading.

        • Holding On


          I’ve been meaning to come back and comment. Good for you attempting the hug and wanting to be close. It is a messed up thing, huh? You want a marriage and exclusiveness with your husband, but you are also very mad with his unfaithfulness and demands. It is hard.

          I am so sorry about your thoughts going to the 10th floor. Don’t go there, Aida. I’ve contemplated thoughts like that, too. Luckily, my kids saved me there as well. It seems bad, but all will work out. Either with your husband or without him, you and your kids are going to be fine.

          Questions, my thoughts on them…

          (a) In Islam, does the first wife need to agree to the second wife? I’m assuming that cheating is not allowed…that if he is contemplating a second wife for real, he should have brought that up with you. Are you alright with that if it did come to that? Could you deal if he was treating you both fairly? Questions to ponder there. Could you be happy with him having her, but also treating you respectfully? I assume that everything like that would be done in the open, so maybe just ask him point blank (after you get all the PI stuff back) I know you are doing this…what is your future plans. Ask him if he is attempting to marry her and keep you both, get a real discussion going on.

          (b) I think he knew who you were (personality) when he fell in love and married you. Maybe it was even a plus that you were so independent. Of course, you see he also needs adoring. I bet you can do both. You CAN be independent and make decisions, but still give and sacrifice a little to show him adoration. Practice…little bits of adoration at a time.

          (c) I think having remorse and guilt at seeing things that maybe you could have done different is a wonderful thing. To change it for your marriage or your future is beneficial for you. This is a time for complete honesty. Just say it like you said it here. Mention that it might sound like begging or pleading, but you can honestly see how your anger and temper has caused problems and you do have a sincere desire to change. Maybe you can look into books or counseling or workbooks. My counselor also thought I might have an anger management problem after my husband’s EA because I would lose it. I found a workbook, but really decided I didn’t want to be like that and calmed down quite on my own just realizing how far I let my anger take me. I still go overboard, but not to the extent I was.

          (d) I think it is great that you really care and want to apologize. This is where I think a letter might come in handy for all this the guilt, the remorse, the apology. You can write it all out. I think in your words here, I can see and hear all that you regret. You write very nicely about how you wish things were different and you take on your responsibility for what was your issues. I would suggest a letter to him telling him all that and that you would like to sit down and discuss further what HE feels for you, your marriage, your future, and also that you would like to discuss his infedilities and what it means for your future and your marriage and your family. Mention that you are/were his friend and you would like to be that way whatever may happen to the marriage for the benefit of the children. I think the letter is beneficial in that he has paper proof of what you said…always…until he gets rid of the letter. Paper proof of how you feel, what you regret, and maybe even add in the wishes for your relationship with him. He can read it multiple times and refer to it and I think he would read it more than once. However, with a conversation, it is said once, he may think back on it, but if he isn’t in the right frame, he can quickly dismiss your words.

          Good luck to you, Aida. I hope you get the answers you seek with the PI that you can finally come together with him with information and have the conversations and things that you need.

          Tell us how the PI goes and what happens when he returns. Good luck and stay strong. You are a survivor! 🙂

          • ifeelsodumb

            Wonderful advice Holding On…. 🙂 Aida, one of the best books I have read during my “journey” is Love and Respect…and I strongly recommend it!
            Just so you are forewarned, it IS written from a Christian prospective…BUT it does define how a man thinks and why he acts the way he does, Christian OR Muslim…After reading the book, I came to understand how I was disrespecting my H in so many LITTLE ways….things like rolling my eyes when he would say something I didn’t agree with, or arguing/disagreeing with him in front of the children, etc….the best way it’s described in the book is that men NEED respect in their marriage, just like women NEED love in their marriage!
            And I’ll tell you Aida…trying to respect my H AFTER Dday…well, it wasn’t easy! I prayed…A LOT!! LOL!
            But I did see a HUGE difference in my H when I really tried….so you might want to check it out…it can’t hurt, right? Here’s the website….Loveandrespect.com

          • aida

            Dear Holding On,
            Hello. I thought I lost you…

            Its really very hard to talk to him right now. ever since the hug thing, he’s been kind of “edgy”. (well, i dunno if he’d been edgier before this too….i’ve been avoiding him, you see).

            well, anyways, he was edgy. he completely ignored me the morning after. I called him to ask for a favour..he didn’t pick up- called me back a few minutes later – he was in a down, kinda stressed out mood – maybe it’s me : like “IS SHE STILL GOING TO GO AFTER ME?” (hey, just guessing).

            so, to cut long story short, i left him at that….and that night he told me about his upcoming out of town trip. I said ok. AND THEN I PUT PIs ON HIS TAIL. (Heheh).

            HO, i don’t know if i want to go talking to him because his mind seems a little unsettled right now.

            his brain is not functioning properly…..it’s really funny. FYI, just before left for this out of town trip (where the PIs are tailing him), he had been on another work-related out of town trip. Right after the hug. anyways, i maintained No Contact throughout that work-related trip.

            His driver (who is one of my ‘informants’) said, It’s really funny Madam. When Boss got into the car, he said, “Go straight home”. And when we had almost reached the destination “Go to the Office”. and then when we were nearing the office (Boss was on the phone), he suddenly said “No, let’s go to my mother’s house”.

            while i wondered why that was funny, driver said, “In all my 3 years in working for Boss, this was the 1st time he has shown any real indecisiveness in determining where exactly he wants to go”. (well, i should be the last to comment on this – because i’m undecided most times anyway – impulsive nature, right?).

            and when husband came home, I opened the door and said, Hey Daddy’s home! (Children were completely like “Yeah okay, whatever”). So i actually had to call out to them “Boys, come on Daddy’s home” and Daddy goes “Have they had their dinner yet!!” – i said, no they were waiting for you….(white lie, kids were already full with late afternoon snack). To which Daddy said, “Why have they not had dinner yet? It is already late” (very frustrated tone), and Kids backed me up saying “Dad, it’s only 8.40 p.m.!” Well, Daddy’s mommy taught him that if kids eat past 9p.m. then it’s considered late.

            I mean i understand that he may want to have the kids eat an early dinner but really, did he have to ask me in such an angry manner. Was he upset that i tried to hug him after i decided to ask for a D due to this EA?

            so anyways, he has gone for that weekend out of town trip. he is now two states away, where he said he would be, but i’m not sure why he had to take a taxi there (HIM? take a taxi to an out of town location? HIM? the one who is telling me i spend too much on groceries, etc? HIM? the one who tells the kids “It’s not good to be wasteful”. He had to take a taxi in the night – in a traffic jam because it is raining. and he has put himself up in the state’s Equatorial hotel (well, i know he has money to burn but ….huh?) well, anyways, i’ve got someone tailing the girl as well (hey, if you are gonna spy, you might as well go all out). so we will see if she has the sudden urge to go travelling this weekend.

            • aida

              Polygamy in the Quran

              The Muslim scripture, the Quran, is the only known world scripture to explicitly limit polygamy and place strict restrictions upon its practice:

              “… marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one.” (Quran 4:3)

              The Quran limited the maximum number of wives to four. In the early days of Islam, those who had more than four wives at the time of embracing Islam were required to divorce the extra wives. Islam further reformed the institution of polygamy by requiring equal treatment to all wives. The Muslim is not permitted to differentiate between his wives in regards to sustenance and expenditures, time, and other obligations of husbands. Islam does not allow a man to marry another woman if he will not be fair in his treatment. Prophet Muhammad forbade discrimination between the wives or between their children.

              Also, marriage and polygamy in Islam is a matter of mutual consent. No one can force a woman to marry a married man. Islam simply permits polygamy; it neither forces nor requires it. Besides, a woman may stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife in her prenuptial contract. The point that is often misunderstood is that women do not necessarily look at polygamy as a sign of women’s degradation.

              Even though we see the clear permissibility of polygamy in Islam, its actual practice is quite rare in many Muslim societies. Some researchers estimate no more than 2% of the married males practice polygamy. Most Muslim men feel they cannot afford the expense of maintaining more than one family. Even those who are financially capable of looking after additional families are often reluctant due to the psychological burdens of handling more than one wife.

              Allah ‘s Apostle said, “Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely.”

              In islam a woman has a distinct and separate identity. Islam has given her the right to own property. She is the owner of her earnings. She can dispose of her earnings and property as she wishes within the bounds of halal (lawful) and haram (unlawful). Islam has given women a right to inheritance. She has a claim on the property of her dead father, husband or childless brother.

              A woman has a right to develop her talent and seek employment within limits of Islam.

              Women have a very important place in Islamic Society. Islam holds a woman in high esteem. Her importance as a mother and a wife has been clearly stated by Prophet Muhammed (SAW).

              ‘Paradise lies at the feet of your mothers’

              ‘O people, your wives have a certain right over you and you have certain rights over them. Treat them well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. ‘

              Allah’s messenger said, “The believers who show the most perfect faith are those who have the best disposition and the best of you are those who are best to their wives ”

              “Any woman who dies when her husband is pleased with her will enter Paradise.”

              [should the husband be displeased with his wife without any fault of hers, she will of course be innocent in Allah’s sight and the responsibility for annoyance shall rest with the husband.]

              BUT this is where I get stuck – because i am a completely stubborn person :

              (a) “Allah likes the woman who obeys and loves her husband and protects herself from other men.”

              (b) “When a woman observes the five times of prayer, fasts during Ramadan, preserves her chastity and obeys her husband, she may enter by any of the gates of paradise she wishes (in other words nothing will prevent her from entering paradise).”

    • Fist Timer

      I agree with holding on, and some of the questions the post asked you is what I would like to know also? It would help to understand more of your situation.. and how YOU feel about it.. Now mind you, we all here in some way or another has experianced the same emotions as you.. Affairs test a human to bonderies you yourself did not even know exsisted.
      And do I feel I like I think to HIGHLY of you? Absoulutly NOT… you see the way I feel is you have reached deep down into your own soul, when you have felt the lowest you could you think you could ever feel, and you are looking at your faults that lead up to the A…. I to have done this. But even thou you may have some thouts about changing yourself, than that is your choice to make. You do that for yourself, for you, you are the only person who knows who you are and how you want to be.. But understand it must be for yourself, you can not change who you are for any one else. You must make yourself happy about who you are for YOU and only YOU… your husband made his own choices and you did not do that.. Even thou you feel like your husband is not happy with who you are, you will not be happy with who you are if you try to change yourself to please him. But if you feel yourself, would like to change to make you feel better about yourself, then he may notice. But the important part is. YOU WILL Notice and that is a great feeling..

      And about the emotional roller coaster… it happens to the best of anyone.. affairs just tear your world apart and it just human nature to have feeling, emotions and so many questions. Be fair to yourself and understand that its ok to go thru so many emotions. Its part of healing. It takes time. but you did show heart when you attemted to reach out to your husband, and that took courage. It seems like you are being so hard on yourself, dont beat yourself up so much. Its hard, I understand, Iv been thru it myself, but take a moment and dont think about all the negatives. think about some of the postives, it may at this point in life be hard to spot out the postives, it just all seems so negative, but trust me its there somwhere. Things you have done now, even the things you have done before, whatever it is, give yourself a pat on the back so to speck, and just take a deep breath and say to yourself, I DID so and so, and that felt good….. the crazy irrantional thinking to has motivated you to do things that is normally not your nature, yes we have all been there, please read this https://www.emotionalaffair.org/discussion-acting-crazy-after-the-affair/ as you will see, it driven on emotions so many of us has done things we are not proud of but at the moment we were driven to almost insanity and did things we would never had done otherwise.. And yes.. VENT all you want, it helps.. come here and VENT…. that has helped me alot, not keeping it inside and just being able to VENT… then just breath….. This takes time, and its not easy.. So much of what HOLDING ON is saying to you is alot more insight than what I can offer you, I am still on my quest for answers and heeling, but I just wanted to say to you that You are not alone and you have found a place were so many others has came to find support and are so many here willing to lend and “ear” and offer a “shoulder”. I wish you the best……and yes people do care but try to remember as hard as it may be at times.. dont be so hard on yourself……

    • Fist Timer

      Here is an artical I read that just I Dunno, seemed to speak I guess.. just wanted to share……

      We found this very insightful article by Mort Fertel. If you’re feeling

      lost in your marriage, if you’ve been unhappy, read this article carefully. It can

      give you hope for the future.

      Is Your Marriage Crushing You Like a Grape?

      Have you ever been to a winery?

      Can you imagine what it would be like to be one of those grapes?

      Really…play along with me here for a moment.

      Can you imagine what it would be like to be plucked, pushed, crushed,

      pressed, skinned, and fermented? OUCH! The pain! What’s the point of it all?

      A lot of people feel that way about the pain they experience in their marriage.

      “Why am I doing this? Where is this relationship going?”

      But just as a grape goes through a difficult process before it becomes a fine

      wine, sometimes our marriage has to go through a painful process before

      it matures.

      The people who have the best marriages are NOT people who grew up

      well-adjusted, have healthy adult lives, and normal parents. People like that

      usually have OKAY marriages.

      The BEST marriages are with couples who were crushed, who went

      through a painful process, and who built their relationship from the ruins

      of broken hearts.

      There’s an ancient song by King David, “Those who sow in tears will reap

      harvest in glad song.”

      And so it is that pain is often the preview to pleasure. Any woman who has

      experienced child birth can testify to this truth.

      In my work doing marriage coaching, I have noticed that very often the

      turning point in a marriage is when a couple hits rock bottom. It’s not until

      they’ve been through the worst that things start to get better.

      But the turnaround in a marriage is NOT automatic. Just because you hit

      bottom, does NOT mean you’ll bounce back. If you don’t make it happen,

      you’ll just crash. In order to turn your marriage around, you have to take


      What does it REALLY mean to be responsible? A person who is responsible

      has the ABILITY to RESPOND. In other words, if you take response-ability

      for your marriage, then your marriage is not determined solely by what happens;

      it’s also determined by how you RESPOND to what happens.

      A responsible person is not a victim to
      their circumstances. They are the master
      of their fate. How you respond to your marital circumstances today WILL

      determine your marital circumstances tomorrow. YOUR actions create your

      marriage. You can turn sour grapes into a fine wine.

      Making a relationship work is not mystical. Love is NOT a mystery. You

      don’t have to be “lucky in love.” You can “make love.” You just have to know the recipe.

      We hope that you enjoyed this article.

      Aida….this is what you are doing, and yes I applaude you!!!1

    • Fist Timer

      Thanks Doug and Linda…. this seemed so true to me and I wanted to share it with Aida just in case she had not received it or read it.. maybe it will help her to understand As it did me.. Or someone else who are needing this question answered.. It did turn on a light in my head so to speak…. And I thank you for the great articals!!!!!!!!!!

      • aida

        Thanks First Timer, for support and advice. The change-for-me thing….Yes, I agree, but it also makes me feel guilty.

        He is always telling me that I am selfish, that I think only of myself and my job and he feels like it means i don’t love him.

        that i don’t adore him.

        that I don’t / can’t give him what he wants.

        (the thing that infuriates me about these statements are :

        (i) it’s kind of hard to be supportive when he’s constantly telling me what i’m doing wrong.

        (ii) it’s really a two way street and right now, he is feeling ignored so he says it’s my fault – it’s like i owe him happiness. I can’t give him happiness on a silver platter. I tried to go talk to him but there are times when he ignores me (he has already had his fill from the OW, so why would he need me, right?).

        I always felt that in this marriage : I CAN’T BE ME. BECAUSE THE ‘ME’ ME IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. IT’S NOT THE RIGHT ‘ME’ THAT HE WANTS.

        He married me because i was the one who approached him first. well, more like my friend introduced us and she said (without checking with me first) that “Aida Likes You”. and I’m like Huh? so it started from there. and we never really clicked. but he seems to have ‘found his soulmate’ with this person. they work in the same office, they know the same people. it’s like she’s PERFECT, i’m …not.

        So if I changed for me while still being in the same relationship, it may seem like “Huh> what else is new. Aida is on one of her unthinking activities again. She doesn’t think about what I want, she doesn’t care about what I need. Boo Hoo”.

        AND he still manages to push my buttons the wrong way, when he comes in to where i am and starts to ask questions like “Have the Kids eaten? Why not?” and all that. did you read about the part where he decides to rush the counselling process.

        YES, i am hurt because he did all that, so i retaliate even when i didn’t want to.

        and the worse thing is, when i retaliate, he seems to have it in his mind IT IS BECAUSE I HATE HIM, I REJECT HIM.

        and he completely disregards it when i tell him, I am doing this because of your love for her, so i’m leaving you and taking the kids with me.

        and his actions to me seems like he is saying “I know you hate me, and you rejected me”.

        i dunno i just have that feeling – that deep inside – he is still reeling that i am trying to get rid of him. his pain must be so deep.

        • aida

          guys there is something i never told you – because i dont know how you would take this…. ‘sides, i don’t know how to believe this myself. but here goes.

          you know i was talking about the visit to the alternative healer. well she is a Muslim based kinda healer. I know Islam doesn’t allow us to put our beliefs in others except ALLAH and HIS ALL ENCOMPASSING POWER and honestly, i do want to leave it up to GOD.

          there is just the little problem of not knowing what exactly is it that I’m supposed to be doing while waiting = GOD is surely upset with me about that.

          so i figured i might as well be proactive and go visit someone who could kinda give me a ‘sense’ of what’s happening in CuckooLand (i.e. affair fog land).

          okay, here goes. She said that he is intending to have a 2nd wife because (get this), he sees others doing it, and he thinks he can do it too (he’s an idiot).

          He wants to marry her but he’s waiting for things to calm down a bit.

          secondly, the OW has often told him many times (apparently they are quite close), that SHE WANTS TO MARRY HIM, BUT SHE DOESN’T WANT HIM TO DIVORCE ME BCOZ SHE’S AFRAID THAT SHE WILL BE LABELED AS A HUSBAND SNATCHER. (i’m going like “What?!!”). Well, i know for a fact that i found her mentioning “We can talk about the future” in a text message to him (and his reply was a short “Yes”). when i asked him earlier “Do you want to marry her , he said I was jumping the gun and that he never thought it that far before”

          the lady said, “he seems to care about you….in a way that he feels responsible for you ….he knows he doesn’t really have any real reasons to ‘dispose’ off you. (oh really?). but the ‘disturbances’ from the other woman seem very strong and very constant. it seems like there is a lot of bad things (well she said this “You know how things are – when there is a sinful thing going on, satan loves to encourage and build it up further”.) so – there is a lot of that going on from the other side.”

          But guys, before we say anything else she also told me :

          (a) Aida, you must reconsider your intention to divorce because i think you shouldn’t

          (b) His mind is kind of messed up right now (duh!!!)

          (c) You will not win with direct contact. You have to transform yourself (hey there First Timer)

          (d) You must remember that when he is angry (at you), it is not really him that’s talking…it is the devil beside him who is egging him on.

          She was quite adamant about “Aida you must not divorce yet – try to transform yourself first.” and i said, Hey if he is really thinking of marrying her, and EVEN NOW before they are married, he’s already being idiotic, what do you want me to wait for?

          she said that i must try to change – who knows there could be further positive changes in the future.

          Oh i dunno.

          • aida

            oh but check it out :

            the healer seemed to derive some wicked pleasure from the fact that ‘HMMMM the OW seems to be not authentic.

            the healer said that it is just like when we are first dating, we are courting someone to like us – so we kind of try to attract using all kinds of gentleness.

            and he will find out that one day that he’s just got another raw deal.

            I asked the lady “Do you mean that this OW is just as aggressive as I am”

            to which she rather gleefully replied “Yes”. (i honestly thought that she was laughing at him, almost….Yes she was most certainly laughing at him.)

            Well, i guess she’d have to be since she’s chasing after a married man, messaging him day night midnight pre-dawn and dawn and dusk. she’s asked a married man many times to marry her too….(even i never pressured my then-boyfriend to marry me, it was my parents who asked when he was coming to ask for my hand in marriage).

            and yet my husband adores this woman who really has no qualms whatsoever about moving into another person’s territory. she has no qualms about destroying other people’s lives and she only has one end in sight.

            THIS IS THE WOMAN THAT MY HUSBAND HAS CHOSEN FOR HIMSELF. simply because she gave him support and encouragement.

            i’m not holy nor am i great. but seriously, why do people in the affair fog can’t see past their noses?

            their brains are scrambled.

            and am i to wait until she marries him? she will have him under her thumb in no time. I pity not only him but our kids, my mother in law, his family.


            Like the Malays say “Padan Muka” or SUIT YOUR FACE. You brought this onto yourself.

    • lynne


      I wonder, have you ever asked him to attempt to put in writing what it is that he needs? I am not saying at all that what he has done is right, but what are his needs? If you can take yourself out of the equation a bit and find out how HE feels loved, respected and cared for, this might be helpful to both of you. Not a list of what you haven’t given to him (in his opinion), but a list of the things that make him feel valued. Then you can look at this list and decide if you feel that these are things you can offer. Again, take yourself out of it, step back a little, and ask yourslef if these are reasonable desires you are open to offering.

      This doesn’t take away the pain and hurt of what’s happened to you, but perhaps will allow to recognize that he wants what we all want~to be loved, respected, heard, considered and cared for~a safe place to fall.

      If you feel you can’t give him these things, or are way past wanting to even try, then you will have your answer. Our egos can be a big thing (particularly in an affair situation), but sometimes we have to set our ego and pride aside.

      You are a wonderful and loving human being, and you deserve great love and happiness, as does your H (even though you may want to kill him right now 😉

    • Fist Timer

      not sure if my post are showing up.. but I feel this is important part of my comment so I will repost just incase It didnt..

      When a person is in the midst of having an affair their thinking processes are quite clouded – they think ‘in a fog.’ They revise the past history of the marriage to make it seem too intolerable to handle, they magnify the flaws of their spouse, and concentrate on all the negative things in the marriage. At the same time, they glorify all things about their lover, ignoring any negatives. It’s kind of a defense mechanism: infidelity is intrinsically wrong, so they have to find ways to make it seem (in this totally rare case, of course) to be the only acceptable option they can take. The ironic thing is that nearly every single person involved in adultery feels like their is a rare, and justified case.

    • Fist Timer

      you can google,, affair fog… and blaming..

      I found this interesting… and it just seems like a pattern.. I have been thru the blaming or being told some suprising things about who/how he thinks I am or have been.. seems like you have to… I know what your saying about the whole thing my husband has did this to me to.. so I think it may have alot to do with the affair fog… but I wanted to post this to you aswell….

      One of the easiest things to do in the aftermath of an affair is blaming. When news of the affair comes out, there is a sensation of being stunned (or exposed). In response to this experience, the stunned (or exposed) party often reacts with anger and quickly seeks someone or something to blame for what occurred. The stunned (or exposed) sensation carries with it a sense of helplessness and vulnerability. While in that state, one often seeks ways to flex one’s power. Even though you can’t control what is going on, by blaming and getting angry you have a way of letting out some of those emotions welling up inside. The emotional explosion does not improve the relationship, it does not bring healing, although it does bring some sensation of relief.

      The blaming often takes the form of attributing the cause of the affair or exposing of the affair onto someone or something other than oneself. It seems that all responsibility is delegated to things outside of oneself. “You made me…”, “You are a …..”, “YOUR nothing but a ….” are often heard. They release tension, but do very little to change the patterns or the relationship itself. Blaming is destructive to relationships, whereas understanding is healing. Trying to understand your spouse does NOT mean that you agree with them, it only means that you are attempting to grasp what has occurred and their reaction to it.

      Stopping the blaming is not easy to do. Like a bad habit, it often comes ‘naturally’. Try using more understanding and less blaming the next time there is a discussion about the affair.

      Interesting, to say the least….. why do I feel that most affairs follow some sort of pattern?

    • Fist Timer

      So Aida.. this “… marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one.” (Quran 4:3)

      What your having a problem with? do you not want him to have another wife, or are you not sure he will be justly?

      It just might help us to understand more, because I for one am not very educated when it comes to Polygamy.. I can only offer my experience with affair… and the emotional toll it took on me.. as Im sure it would on any women.. But I can not offer you anything about Polygamy because I have no knowledge of this.. But to any extent feeling betrayed it just that feeling betrayed and it hurts…..

    • aida

      thanks everyone….i am so grateful for every single individual here and in so many places. …everyone who has given me the support and encouragement to me during my time of need.

      I had a session at the alternative healer’s today – she gave me a lot of positive pep talk – how he didn’t really forget me, how i seemed to be still important to him. in some ways, i wondered whether it was true because it sounded kinda different from what she said earlier – well NOT ENTIRELY different. but in some ways – the last time i went, she said that he was being ‘pressured’ by the OW (there was a lot of emphasis on her impact and how she was so regularly and busily ‘communicating’ with him etc. )

      today, the healer talked about me and my relationship with hubby more. She reiterated that hubby is still confused – he still seemed to have a lot of good feelings about me (well, i guess there could be some of it left but if you compare it against his feelings for the OW, it pales in comparison).

      anyways, she said a prayer and she told me that i should also be repeating GOD’s name – like saying the rosary, i assume. she also said i should say a silent prayer in my heart – ask GOD for what i wanted. so, i did that. the first few minutes, i asked GOD to return my husband to me, and then i thought that I would need to change if i had him back anyways, so i said, Please GOD make me a better wife. and the i fell silent for a while – just listening to the verses of the Quran she was reading. when i picked up my part of the prayers again i just kept repeating one name – GOD’s name – over and over again. and suddenly i felt that husband was next to me, and he was giving me a big hug. I know this probably a psychological trick of my mind, the power of thought etc. but anyways, he was there in my imagination, and it lasted several minutes.

      After that we went to the cleansing room – long story. but to cut it short, after the whole treatment i was calmer somewhat. I don’t really expect this to be long lasting because the last time i went to another healer, i was calm for the night and then two days later, i found out more gory details of my husband’s EA and i asked for a divorce. that was really scary.

      having said that i had also been thinking that in some ways, maybe I should start taking care of myself more. i don’t mean just venting, but really you know – go out and get myself looking better. also i think that in some ways, he was upset with me because i was unattentive to him, and hence he sought for something that would give him the adoration he so badly needs – men are such woozies!

      anyway, so men are men, and i just thought okay, how do we now move on….

      that is where i hear you guys asking me to look at what he needs – yeah, you know who you are. i am at a loss as to what to do… I can’t go on bothering him or talking to him….he wont talk and to be honest i have run out of things to say….

      can you guys suggest a non-threatening, non-sexual, casual thing i could propose for us to do as a family. he’s very boring around us and he keeps asking the boys to ensure that their mental arithmetic homework is all done up (they take the classes every saturday), and then they have taekwondo every sunday, and he entices them with Playstation every other time ( i suppose it gives him time to be with them while also lounging around and having his mobile handy whenever he is in the same room). if i go out with the boys, he says “up to you” (non-committal), or “You never ask the boys to finish their homework”. i suppose i could just suddenly turn up at their Playstation games and pretend i am interested in the game, or i could be doing other stuff around the same area, huh?

      • aida

        Friday, February 06, 2009
        30 Ways to become the Most Interesting Person You Know

        How much money is being boring costing you?

        ANSWER: Too much.

        Boring ideas lose.
        Boring people fade.
        Boring organizations fizzle.

        LESSON LEARNED: There is inverse relationship between how successful you are and how boring you are.

        This reminds me of the movie American Beauty. Towards the end, Ricky (the outcast) finally shoots down Angela (the popular girl) by evoking her deepest fear: That she’s normal.

        “You’re boring. And you’re totally ordinary. And you know it,” Ricky says.

        Devastated, Angela storms out of the room.


        What about you?

        Are YOU normal? Do your customers perceive you as normal?

        Hope not. Your business depends on it.

        Today we’re going to explore a list of thirty ways to become the most interesting person you know. As someone who makes a living writing books about “not BEING normal,” (as well as being pretty abnormal himself!) each of these practices comes from my direct experience, observation, research and reflection.

        1. Avoid the Always/Notice the Never. Find out what people who do what you do ALWAYS do, then do the opposite. Similarly, find out what people who do what you do NEVER do, then do the opposite. Here’s a helpful video module with an exercise you can implement to make this practice happen. What are you currently doing that’s unpredictable?

        2. Make the mundane memorable. What do your voicemail, email signature, business card, website and blog have in common? ANSWER: They’re all boring. Keep in mind: Nobody notices normal. Nobody buys boring. And nobody pays for average. So, the secret is to create a seamless predictability among all marketing touchpoints. All of these are underused branding hotspots (and more!) require a unique touch. How many customers is being boring costing you?

        3. Don’t be one-dimensional. I once had a boss whose sole interest, purpose and passion in life was sports. That’s it. The guy couldn’t carry conversation like a normal person unless the topic related to sports. Or, if the conversation was not about sports, he’d go out of his way to make sure it slowly became that way.

        THEE most uninteresting, one-dimensional guy I ever worked with.

        Now, I’m not against having a passion for sports. I love sports. (Go Cardinals!) What IS as a problem, however, is when you maintain such a limited worldview and openness for activities and experiences outside of your scope of interest, that is mars your ability to relate to others in a healthy way. Bor-ring. How many dimensions do YOU have?

        4. Learn the principles of amazing storytelling. Stories are powerful. Stories are better than statistics or quotes. Stories are what customers; readers and audiences remember and connect with most. Ultimately, stories are the best way to communicate a message. So, if you want to become a master storyteller, my suggestions are: (1) Listen to Garrison Kiellor, (2) Read Made to Stick and (3) Attend Doug Stevenson’s Story Theater program. How many people are repeating YOUR story?

        5. Be a story distiller. BUT, you can’t just tell the story. Because that’s not enough. So, when your story is over, don’t just move on to the next story. First, figure out the lesson(s), universal human experience/emotion, practical take home value and Call to Action. Here’s a helpful article on how to extract take-home value. Why are you telling this story?

        6. Be a Smokin’ Hot Piece of Brain Candy. One of Edward DeBono’s most underrated books is called How to Have a Beautiful Mind. In the opening he states: “As you get older, physical beauty tends to fade. But beauty of the mind is independent of age and can actually increase with wisdom and experience.”

        In short: Be Brain Candy.

        This idiom of psychological attractiveness means “someone with high mental appeal AND significant substance.” It’s more enduring, attractive, marketable, approachable, memorable and, of course, more INTERESTING. Check out my Top Twenty List of Smokin’ Hot Pieces of Brain Candy. Are you eye candy or brain candy?

        7. Be childlike, but not childish. One person’s playful spirit brings out the same in another. So, by acting childlike, you subconsciously give other people PERMISSION to the same. It’s contagious. It’s approachable. It’s memorable. And everyone can relate to it. How are you giving people permission to be playful around you?

        8. Be more challenging. Ask questions like: Is that always the case? So what? What stops you? What would happen if you didn’t? What’s your proof? Break people’s patterns. Make them stop, think and say, “Wow…” It works. How challenging are you?

        9. Be radically honest. It’s unexpected and unforgettable. Read this life-changing book and, if you practice what Brad practices, I guarantee you’ll become twice as interesting of person by the time you’re done. How are you branding your honesty?

        10. Become a Question Master. It’s not just about asking a bunch of questions; it’s about valuing a questioning attitude. So, every time you hear or read a question that makes you react in ANY way, write it down. Add it to your running list of questions. Categorize them. Sort them alphabetically to make it easier on your eyes. My list has 6000. How many questions do you have on your list?

        11. Books. Speaking of books, I suggest you make a list called, “Top Ten Most Interesting Books I’ve Read.” Next to each one, write three attributes, actions or states of being that make those books so interesting. When you’re done, look for patterns. Extract the key ideas and then ask yourself how you can practice that in your own life. What did you read today?

        12. Consciously choose how you experience the world. In his mind-blowing book, Playful Perception, Herbert Leff suggests, “Expand your repertoire of useful awareness plans and you will improve the flavor and value of your inner experiences. Increase the choice about the quality of your experience.” Check out this awesome list of 43 awareness plans to make your daily life more interesting. Are you making mindful choices for experiencing the world?

        13. Create Points of Dissonance. Vagueness stimulates curiosity. And curiosity is a natural motivator of human engagement. So, there’s a certain dissonance when people observe an unexpected or unexplained behavior. Especially when it’s inconsistent with their environment. (Like seeing some guy wearing a nametag at the gym, for example.)

        The challenge is to craft an idea, a message, or a look that when people are first exposed to it, they can’t help but respond with, “Huh?” or “Ok, so, I just HAVE to ask…” Those words are money in the bank. Remember: The most effective way to attract people’s attention is to B-R-E-A-K their patterns. Copyblogger has a killer post about being interesting as it relates to this topic. What patterns are YOU breaking?

        14. Establish your voice. If you want make your thinking, writing and speaking more unique, relevant, persuasive, memorable, appealing and more creative, you need to pull material FROM, and cite examples USING multiple, eclectic and personal sources.

        In the words of Kurt Vonnegut: “If you want to be a great writer, be a great date for your reader.” Here’s a meaty, practical guide on how to do this. WARNING: If you’re an Oprah fan, you may not want to read it. Is your writing innovative or imitative?

        15. Expand your references. In the book Unlimited Power, Tony Robbins said, “Limited references create a limited life. If you want to expand your life, you must expand your references by pursuing ideas and experiences that wouldn’t be a part of your life if you didn’t consciously seek them out.”

        Remember: The more interesting experiences you have, the more interesting people you meet, the more interesting things you see, watch, hear, read, taste, the more interesting places you go, the more interesting you will become. Everything is a plus. How have you stepped out of your comfort zone this week?

        16. Explore the word “interesting.” It literally means: Engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosity. Arousing a feeling of interest. A state of curiosity or concern about or attention to something. Involvement with or participation in something. An excess or bonus beyond what is expected or due. Something, such as a quality, subject, or activity that evokes this mental state.

        OK, so, now that you know that, go do that. Go BE that. On a scale from 1-10, how interesting would you say you are? How interesting would your top 20 customers say you are?

        17. Extract the positive characteristics. Make a list called, “Top Ten Most Interesting People I Know.” Next to each one, write three attributes, actions or states of being that make those people so interesting. When you’re done, look for patterns. Extract the key ideas and then ask yourself how you can practice that in your own life. This exercise is how I began writing this very module on being interesting. It works and it’s fun. What would an interesting person do in this situation?

        18. Extract the negative characteristics. Next, make a list called, “Top Ten Least Interesting People I Know.” Next to each one, write three attributes, actions or states of being that make those people so uninteresting. When you’re done, look for patterns. Extract the key ideas and then ask yourself how you can practice the opposite of in your own life. What would an uninteresting person do in this situation?

        19. Fascinate yourself with the ordinary. “Evaluate critically every novelty you encounter,” Mihály Csíkszentmihályi wrote in his amazing book Creativity. “One of the surest ways to enrich life is to make experiences less fleeting.” If you do this, you WILL boost your creativity. You will flood your mind with new ideas. You will build a solid foundation of curiosity. And the combination of those three results will mold your melon into an attractive, valuable commodity that your clients will want to have access to.

        Remember: Clients don’t want to hire consultants or marketers or coaches – they want to hire cool, smart people who happen to do those things. What ordinary stuff fascinates you?

        20. Find interesting in almost anything. Similarly, Edward DeBono encourages people to embrace curiosity by constantly saying, “Now that’s interesting…”“Be able to find interest in almost anything,” DeBono says in the aforementioned How to Have a Beautiful Mind. “Be curious. Explore things. Bring up a discussion. Get people’s opinions, ideas and values. Explore, elaborate and make connections.” Are you practicing that enough?

        21. Gain an eclectic education. In his book, The Invaluable Leader, my friend Dale Furtwengler suggests, “Gain an eclectic education. Expose your mind to things outside your normal areas of interest or discipline. The more quickly you can connect with your listeners, the more effectively you can communicate in their language, the more insights you can port from other disciplines, the more valuable you become.”

        Your challenge is to infuse your writing, ideas and conversations with the cool, interesting things you’ve learned through your eclectic education. People will become interested. What weird books have you read recently?

        22. Hang with interesting people. Listen. Watch. Soak it in. Ask yourself what it is about this person that makes them so interesting. Then DO that. Then BE that. How many of your friends are boring?

        23. Have a killer vocabulary. That doesn’t mean use fancy words that showcase your brilliance. Just strong words. Powerful words. Well-timed words. Unexpected words. Perfect words. And of course, killer questions that nobody else is asking. Does your language challenge people?

        24. How to Answer a Question. Answering questions creatively, counterintuitively an unexpectedly leads to a higher level of thinking. Which elevates the conversation to a new level. Which enables both parties to discover their individual truths. Which yields more compelling results than if you would have offered a simple yes or no.

        This, of course, is very interesting. (You may enjoy this handy guide on how to answer questions in more interesting, cool ways, too.)

        So, think about the last time someone answered a question in that way. Weren’t you instantly drawn into that person’s radius? Weren’t you curious and intrigued about what they were going to say next? How often people respond that way to YOUR answers?

        25. Identify and amplify your Personal Philosophy. Simply ask yourself the following question, “If everybody did exactly what I said, what would the world look like?”

        The answer(s) to this question will become a blueprint of your personal philosophy. Your unique, interesting approach to business, life and people. And if you were smart, you would print these bullet points on a Philosophy Card. Very interesting, indeed. Do you have a business card or a philosophy card?

        26. Insert your passion into everything. Embed your passion into the pavement of your daily encounters. You will engage, excite and inspire people because that’s what passion DOES. Embed your passion into the pavement that leads the way.

        For example, let’s say your passion is guitars. Cool. The next step is to begin inserting that passion into every possible Passion Point. Your metaphors. Your pictures. Your gifts to customers. Your ezines. Your tweets. Your office. Your voicemail. Check out my homeboy Mark Williams, The Rockin’ Realtor. Pretty interesting dude. What’s your passion? How many of your customers know what it is?

        27. Keep an Interesting Log. Any time someone (yourself included) says, “Wow, that’s SO interesting…” make a note. Write down what was interesting about the topic, thing or idea at hand. Look for trends and patterns. Extract the key ideas and then apply them to your business and life. What three interesting things did you notice yesterday? How many of them did you write down?

        28. Pioneer in obscure areas. Believe it or not, I’ve been internationally recognized as “The World’s Foremost Expert on Nametags.” Folks, that’s absolutely insane. I still can’t believe that’s what people call me. However, ever since The Washington Post gave me that title in 2003, it’s stuck. (No pun intended.) So I just went with it. And over time, it’s served me, my business and my wallet well. What specialized knowledge have you developed?

        29. Predictable Unpredictability. In Edward DeBono’s book, I Am Right You Are Wrong, he answers the question about what makes something (or someone) interesting:

        “There is always interest in a pattern-rich repertoire. If around any subject there is a rich networking of patterns, that subject becomes interesting.”

        Your challenge is to build up a critical mass of interest by being what I call Predictably Unpredictable. You do this by positioning yourself in a way where people want to know what’s going to happen next, i.e., “I wonder what nametag related adventure he’s going to have today!” I call it The Caveman Principle™. How unpredictable are you?

        30. Transform ideas into questions. I call this creative process “Catapulting.” It’s something I’ve been doing every single day for years. Here are two examples of how it works.

        *If someone casually mentions, “I can’t believe I just stumbled upon this for the first time!” then you would write down on your question list, “What have you recently stumbled upon for the first time?”

        *If you read the passage, “This behavior will make it hard for people to take you seriously,” you would jot down, “What is affecting your ability to be taken seriously?”

        See how that works? Pretty cool. Pretty darn interesting, too. That’s how I’ve collected over 6000 questions. How are you turning ideas into questions and questions into catapults?

        REMEMBER: Nobody notices normal. Nobody buys boring. And nobody pays for average.

        On the other hand:

        Those who are interesting get noticed.
        Those who get noticed get remembered.
        And those who get remembered GET business.

        How successful you become is a function of how interesting you are.

        How much money is being boring costing you?

        • aida

          How To Be More Fun

          Being fun is a trait people generally appreciate in others. If you can be more fun, they’ll enjoy being around you more. It is something that has a time and a place though. If you’re at a party, or in a joking mode, you generally want to be around fun people, and having fun yourself. If you’re going on a quiet, contemplative walk with a friend, that same fun behavior from someone may not fit the situation as well.

          Overall, I see being fun as just one social ‘mode’ of many people can be in. Sometimes it’s the right one for the circumstances, sometimes not. This article covers the idea in more detail:

          Regular Logical Mode vs. Fun Partying Mode In Social Interactions

          I think there are two aspects to being more fun. There are the behaviors that actively make you more fun, and there are the traits to avoid that make you less fun.

          Being more fun

          When I was trying to think up all the traits I’ve noticed that seem to make people more fun, I realized they were all fairly vague and general. You’ll see what I mean in a second. This vagueness means two things. First, as long as they’re sticking to the very general principles, everyone can be fun in their own style. Your fun self can be a reflection of your normal self.

          Second, the principles are relative. What I mean is, one person can apply a principle with a low level of intensity to be fun in a subdued way, which their friends may appreciate more than someone who’s very over the top. Another person can apply the same principle in a more crazy, energetic way. Sometimes I get this mental image of a fun person being a loud guy standing on a table with a beer in each hand. But I think that’s more a particular flavor of being fun, which you’d have to be in a certain mind set to appreciate. You can also be fun in a more low key manner, and in a style other than “Hyper, drunken party animal”.

          However, even though I just wrote about how everyone can be fun in their own way, this article is still using a certain meaning of ‘fun’, which involves having wacky, entertaining, funny times with people. If someone were to say, “My idea of having fun is to take an afternoon to quietly contemplate my garden”, then this article isn’t lining up with their use of the word. If it’s not all that important to you to be more fun in the way the article is talking about, then it may not be something you want to read.

          Be amusing and joke around

          In one way or another, fun people are often funny. Sometimes it’s because they’re purposely being a comedian and trying to make their friends laugh. With other people it’s more that they have a naturally amusing personality, and can’t help but be entertaining as they go about their lives.

          Introduce people to fun new activities and situations

          Fun people also have a knack for bringing the people they’re with into fun scenarios. Some of them just simply know good places to go and fun things to do. Others have this hard-to-pin-down ability to just get everyone they’re involved with into crazy situations. Rather than make a normal response to a situation, they’ll be a bit more spontaneous and unpredictable and get all their friends involved in something memorable.

          Help people have more fun themselves than they normally do

          A lot of us are used to going through life at a certain level of being reserved. We may have a better time if we came out of our shell somewhat, but we’re used to the default setting. Fun people are good at convincing us to let loose a little more. Sometimes it’s because their own enthusiasm is infectious. At other times they have a skill for applying some light, harmless peer pressure (to get you to do something you’ll like anyways). The classic example is the person dragging their more reluctant friends onto the dance floor, where they start to have a good time once they get going.

          Purposely try to have fun

          Some people have fun naturally. Other people, on some level at least, are consciously trying to have a good time when they have fun. Instead of quietly hanging back, they’re on the lookout for things that they think will increase the fun they’re having. Fun people are pretty skilled at seeking out good times, or creating them out of nothing.

          More fun people know how to amuse themselves. Hopefully the situation they find themselves in will be fun from the get-go, but if it’s not then they’ll stir something up. They’ll end up chatting to some new people. They’ll suggest something to do. They’ll inspire other people to get into some wacky situation and see where it leads.

          Get in touch with that goofy, immature side of yourself

          Having fun often means being more silly and childish than normal. You have to shelve the more sober parts of yourself and temporarily regress to a goofier, more free side of your personality. It means laughing at dumb jokes and stupid antics, instead of being serious and judgmental about them. I think a lot of people use alcohol to help them get into this state, but you can get there without it.

          Be a little more crazy and reckless than you would normally

          Another part of being fun is being a bit more spontaneous and uninhibited relative to your normal self. That doesn’t mean you have to start throwing furniture off someone’s roof or become a stereotypical frat boy idiot or anything, just that in fun situations, being a bit more wacky or reckless relative to your usual self isn’t seen as a big deal.

          Or to use a cliche: Say “yes” to more things than you normally would. If a situation comes up where you have a chance to do something memorable and entertaining, throw your caution aside and go with it. One way leads to stories you’ll laugh about afterward, the other means missed opportunities. If you really want to, you can come up with a reason why doing pretty much anything is a bad idea. Don’t let that sensibility go too far.

          Take things a little further than you normally would

          This point is closely related to some of the ones above. This is hard to explain, but I’ve noticed fun people have a tendency to push things a little further than everyone else. If everyone is joking around, they’ll start making slightly more outrageous or edgy jokes. If everyone is dancing, they’ll start dancing in a goofier or showier way and get everyone else to join in. Not always, but sometimes this pushing involves taking things in a slightly more risque direction.

          There’s often fun to be had in pushing things slightly, but some people are hesitant to go there. The fun person helps everyone get into that territory. It takes skill and experience to know just how far to take things though. If you go too far, you can come off as insensitive, or make people uncomfortable.

          Have tricks and talents that make you more fun

          This is a more minor point. Fun people often have all these little skills they can pull off that make other people have a good time, if only to get one cheap laugh out of them. They may know a bunch of jokes or stories, or be able to pull out some funny dances, impressions, or corny magic tricks. Sometimes people see these party tricks as cheesy and trying too hard, but they can get a good reaction too. Fun people are also usually pretty good at ‘stock’ having fun skills like dancing and playing pub or drinking games.

          Being less “un-fun”

          The traits that make you less fun are more concrete and straightforward than the abstract principles in the previous section. Avoiding these un-fun traits is just as important to being fun as the ideas above, maybe more so.

          I’ll mention again that this article is based around how to have more of a particular definition of fun. Some of the things below aren’t inherently negative traits in all situations. Some readers may see some points and think, “Hey! That’s just how my personality leads me to act! Why am I being told that the way I am has something wrong about it?!?” My response would be that from the worldview of how to have fun the article is talking about, certain traits may be seen as ‘bad’. That’s only through that one lens though. Through a different perspective a behavior that’s positive in the ‘having fun’ sense may be a liability. If you decide you don’t care about whether you’re fun or not in a certain way, then carry on acting how you’d like.

          Don’t be the person who never wants to do anything

          If you’re ready to have a good time, it’s pretty irksome to be around someone who isn’t up for any of the activities that you think will lead to you having fun. By this I mean shooting down overall suggestions for activities, and also the little chances to do something amusing that come up when you’re out.

          There are two parts to this point. First, don’t be the person who never wants to do anything new. Second, don’t be the person who never wants to do anything *period*, and who always wants to stay in. When other people are rearing to do something, not being on board drags them down. Be reasonably open to new suggestions and don’t expect your friends to always want to do more humdrum things with you. You could also say a third variation on this to not be the person who wants to quit everything halfway through.

          Wherever you are, don’t just hang back and do nothing

          If there’s one thing that identifies less fun people, it’s that they never seem to be doing much. If you were to go to, say, a staff party, the more fun people would be making the rounds talking to their coworkers, joking around, maybe dancing, and generally having a good time. On the other hand, other people could be found sitting at a table staring off into space, watching the dance floor but never joining in, or being physically in a group or conversation but not engaged with it.

          There are other reasonable ways you could describe such people. Maybe they’re only at this staff party because they feel they have to be, and could care less about having a crazy time. Maybe they’re shy in these situations, or that’s just their personality, or they don’t know anyone, or they don’t know what to talk about, or they don’t know how to dance, or they’re distracted by other concerns.

          These things could all be true, but if you’re looking at them from the perspective of wanting to have a good time, you can’t help but think of them as not being as fun. That’s not necessarily a negative judgment, just that they’re not really in the mix. You can go a long way towards being more fun if you just make an effort to participate when you’re out doing things with people.

          There are several reasons why you might not be participating more already. Again, you may not have the skills or knowledge to take part. If everyone is talking and you’re not good at conversation then joining in is easier said than done. If everyone wants to dance but you feel like you’re hopeless at it, then you’re resigning yourself to watching on the sidelines. What if everyone is talking about something you’re not knowledgeable about? You also may not have the desire to join in. You may not like what everyone else is doing. You may also not totally click with the people you’re with and not be particularly motivated to jump into the action.

          You can see here that you may have a longer road ahead of you than you thought. If you have to change your attitude or pick up some new skills, that isn’t something you can do overnight.

          Don’t be too picky about what you require to be entertained

          A person hanging back at the bar while their friends are off elsewhere could just be shy or not know what to say to people, but they could also be thinking something like this:

          “I’d dance but music isn’t very good.”
          “I’d drink but it’s too expensive.”
          “I’d talk to people but they all look stuck-up.”
          “I’d talk to people but it’s too loud in here.”
          “I’d talk to my friends but they’re all being annoying right now.”
          “I’d have a good time but this bar sucks.”
          “I’m bored.”
          “This place is boring.”
          “The people I’m with are boring.”
          While the less fun people are making a tally of what’s wrong with the place, their more fun friends are out there dancing, meeting people, talking, and having a good time, despite the supposedly less-than-ideal conditions. Make the best of whatever situation you’re in. Focus on the positives instead of the negatives. Don’t feel you can only have fun under the perfect circumstances?

          Don’t sit back and wait for the amusement to come to you

          This is related to the above point. Another big trait of less fun people is that they’re not good at creating a good time for themselves. They depend on the situation or other people to provide them with entertainment. If they go to a party they won’t take the initiative to try to meet some new people or get involved in a fun situation. Instead they’ll hang back and wait for people to come talk to them or rely on their friends to keep them interested. If the friends get distracted by something else and no one stimulating chats to them, then the less fun person will become resentful and not have a good time.

          They may also be bored somewhere and have all these ‘if’s running through their mind. “If the DJ starts playing better music I’ll have fun. If I was at (some other bar) I’d be having fun. If my friends start acting a certain way I’ll have fun. Until those things happen I’ll remain bored.” It’s a passive attitude, where you think you can only have fun if things largely out of your control flow towards you.

          Don’t be a downer

          When people are having fun, they’re sensitive to anything that may bring down their mood. Being around someone who’s a buzz kill like this isn’t pleasant to them. One way to be a downer is to complain too much: “This place sucks”, “This place is dead”, “I’m bored., “Let’s go somewhere else”, etc, etc.

          A second way to bring people down is to keep bringing up inappropriately depressing and heavy topics for the circumstances. If you’re out on a Friday night and it’s obvious your friends want to take it easy and blow off steam, that isn’t the time to go on about how you hate your parents, or how all your ex-girlfriends toyed with your emotions.

          Don’t be overly serious

          Being too uptight can generally contribute to people being less fun. Recognize any of these?

          “These people are so shallow. Why don’t more people want to have deep, intellectual conversations?”
          “Drunk people are so annoying”
          “Ugh, everyone’s being so loud and obnoxious?”
          “Why are those people dancing like that? It’s so embarrassing”
          “I can’t believe my friends are doing that, what a bunch of idiots”
          “I’m too mature to do that”
          “Eww, this place is so hot, and loud, and smelly”
          “Do these people really think this is amusing?”
          And on and on. As I wrote earlier, having fun often involves letting loose and acting less proper and controlled than you normally do. Lighten up a little. You can’t bring rigid, serious, humorless sensibilities to fun situations.

          Don’t see having fun as immature or beneath you

          Some less fun people can be that way because they see the very idea of having fun was base and puerile. They may see it as something only shallow, vacuous people do, and believe more intelligent, mature types don’t stoop to that level. Like I’ve been saying, being able to joke around and have a good time is just a different way of acting. It doesn’t detract from your more intelligent or serious traits.

          • aida

            hey guys, how to set up another page on this forum : FUN THINGS TO DO WHEN YOU’VE BEEN BETRAYED….

            (good clean fun : it helps to laugh a little. Yeah, i know all our hearts are broken … hey maybe we could even crack jokes at the expense of our spouses/partners so that they don’t seem so ‘serious’ to us).

            What do you guys say?

            • Lynne


              You crack me up! You have come so far in such a short amount of time. While I’m sorry you are here with the rest of us, it has been a joy to see how much you’ve grown in trying to learn more about yourself.

              Keep up the good work!

            • aida

              Dear Lynne,

              Thank you. To be honest, I sometimes feel like sending this guy bunches of flowers to thank him for being such an idiot because he has actually OPENED SO MANY NEW DOORS FOR ME.

              did you know that when we were dating, when we fought – i’d send him flowers – like 80 bucks worth. when you consider i was earning like 1500 a month and most of my money was gone before the end of the month, 80 bucks for flowers which I sent to a guy …. well, that’s quite a small fortune right there. The girl at the flower shop used to ask me, “Hey = let me get this straight, YOU are after him but he’s just not that into you right?” and I’d have to explain that we were engaged to be married.

              the trouble is, we have always been rubbing each other the wrong way. i get riled up pretty easily and he always finds ways to criticise me – either i’m too overweight, spend too much etc. I always feel uncomfortable around him, and so much so that I avoid him. it’s always been something. I could never just ‘be accepted’. when i get that vibe *it can also be a mental trap* but when i get that vibe i always feel small, irrelevant, not good enough.

              THAT, plus the fact that I am a dedicated employee – work is a lot but equally important is that it gives me an escape, in a way. well, heck, everything is an escape.

              even the kids sometimes feel that way. they have excuses though – or going for soccer or badminton with friends, and/or homework. they feel uncomfortable sometimes around Dad because he has certain standards and expectations – no, not expectations …. it’s more like BENCHMARKS. any of you familiar with Benchmarks like ISO 9000 or stuff? Quality benchmarks. How about Accreditation Benchmarks, like JCI? yeah, it’s like that.
              There’s Full Compliance, Partial Compliance or Non-Compliance – trouble is with Accreditation sometimes all you need to do is fix something and work as a team, most of the time, you’ll be in compliance. This relationship – it’s kind of hard.

              well, it’s kind of hard now because i guess i handled it wrongly from the start. i took his criticisms like i took my late mother’s – directly and straight to the heart.

              I noticed in one of the OW’s texts to him, she said that “I noticed that you my love (omg!) have some ego, even for me….”

              and you know what “her love” said, “everyone’s got their weaknesses and strengths” in a fun, ‘I’m-Being-Teased-So-I’m-Teasing-You-Back’ kind of way.

              [my older boy said “Daddy really said that?” He was really like “haha” and when my boy and i were in the supermarket, we were laughing our way through the store like “Oh darling, meow! meow!” – oh it was a sight to behold.]

              You know, it’s funny – we are so alike and therefore that’s what us difficult. meaning hubby and i – we are both so proud and egoistic. of course we see that in each other and i instantly refuse to listen. well, you see – that is the problem i don’t listen. i find excuses not to listen – and when this guy is around, he likes his opinions and his decisions to be THE LAW around here. so it becomes really difficult when he faces a quiet rebellion at home front. in his own castle. he faces rejection in his own comfort zone so it becomes uncomfortable.

              so that’s why he told the girl, there is no chemistry between us.

              how do i not be so stubborn? i don’t believe in horrorscopes (much), i can’t actually – it’s again my religion – but he’s CAPRICORN and I’m LEO – GO FIGURE.

            • aida

              hey, i was just wondering – at what level are we supposed to be when husbands compare us to their OW?

              I mean, yeah…apparently we fail in the “adoring eyes” part – they all want to have their adoration and adulation – i don’t blame them. (I think we BS could use some adoration as well).

              but seriously, at what level is the BS supposed to be comparing herself to the OW. i feel uncomfortable with the thought of having to compare myself to a slut, but then…..there it is.

              What I need to do is create a diversion : maybe be as glamourous yet as simplified as KATE MIDDLETON. Yeah, be so stylish yet understated that I would not need to rob the bank. the only problem with that is he completely ignores me anyway.

              Oh i forgot – we are supposed to be enjoying ourselves while he is busy doing the same for himself.

              oh darn, how are we supposed to show off to him then?

            • aida

              hello. i just wanted to ask – any of you guys believe in black magic?

              it’s really just a rhetorical question…..

              so…how is everyone? all quiet on the home front?

            • aida

              Helllllooooo! wow, everyone’s been really quiet since the weekend and now it’s Wednesday, 22 Feb 2012 over here.

              I wanted to share some things with you guys (but of course).

              1) about that alternative healer person : I went to see her twice over the weekend…. (don’t ask). anyway, she also serves as a ‘counselor’ in a way – a sounding board of sorts. she is not into mystic satanic rituals, instead she uses the verses from the Holy Quran (didja know that the Quran is a source for healing? there are verses which can be applied to help in healing and curing….WITH GOD’S PERMISSION….. is that like the Bible, too…I think so, right?)

              the healer sometimes says that my marriage is kind of like ‘out’ but sometimes indicates that though it seems hubby is about to give it up completely, (she says), there is some feeling of concern and responsibility about me (LOL) although he is getting his Emotional Needs filled by someone else.

              Well, duh!

              anyway (i like that word), she said that there is a possibility that hubby is searching for something to fulfill his needs – apparently he is not really sure about making the final decision.

              Anyway, she confirmed my belief that the guy has a HUGE ego issue. (don’t most guys?) so i’ve been reading up on HOW MEN REQUIRE ADMIRATION.

              you know – it’s interesting. I think that i never really took any note of that before. I was really tough, high and mighty with him in a way, and i guess i deserve what I am getting now. What a fool i have been.

              Having said that, it is better to realise that I have been a fool and then tried to improve, rather than just be a fool and refuse to change although you know you are wrong.
              is it too late? I dunno, but if it is ….well, God giveth and God taketh. Glory to HIM who owns the heavens and the earth.

              (I once prayed for a friend in the American Bible Belt when a series of tornadoes was in her area : i imagined her and her family were in a bubble and I prayed DEAR GOD, the winds listen to YOU, the storms listen to YOU, the thunder listens to YOU and the whole universe listens to YOU. Please GOD, keep my friend and her family safe….well, she mailed me back to say that the prayer worked…they didn’t suffer too much and everyone was safe).



              2) I have also been watching and reading on the AMISH way of forgiveness and patience in adversity. It’s got some great insights into how one can truly apply total forgiveness in a community – and i respect their simple, quiet, obedient lives.

              I’m trying to emulate some of their patience and acceptance of the will of God. AND THEIR FORGIVENESS.
              I’ve been trying to forgive myself – forgive me for the mistakes that I made so that I don’t live in regret until my dying day.


              3) I also noticed that a lot of my reading material has centered around ‘how to move on as a single mom after husband’s infidelity’.

              While that is good (reminded me that i am NOT completely worthless), i started reading about how winners think – even when they are down in the dumps.
              Winners apparently ‘find other ways to solve their problems when the current strategies don’t work’.

              That struck a chord in me (about time too!)

              4) Mort Fertel’s programme : we have spoken about subscribing to Mort’s programme somewhere in here, right?

              Yesterday, I got Mort’s update on ‘analysis paralysis’. which i supposed was a God-sent, because it had come at a time when I was ready for that part….in a way. It’s timing coincided with the promise I made to the healer that I would fight the circumstances surrounding me right now and i would try to do what is best and trust the rest to GOD. so, i’ve been unabashedly trying to literally rebuild the bridge to my husband over the past three days. I have tried to silence the nagging voice in my head that i am no good compared to the other woman – although so far she’s got a 7 year head start!

              it’s more like i am combining Mort’s suggestion to overcome analysis paralysis and just do something – plus i am trying to apply the Amish’s strong (blind?) faith in GOD …whatever the outcome …… and to ultimately make that giant leap of faith that I will be working towards fulfilling some of my husband’s Emotional Needs.

              I may fail…. but like my friend told me just yesterday, “At least you’ll go down in a blaze of glory” ; at least i’ll go down giving my best even at the very end.


            • chiffchaff

              From a Brit, don’t be fooled by the ‘simple’ ness of Kate Middleton. She and her family are anything but simple. I’m sure she’s a lovely person but underneath the calm exterior there’s alot of furious social paddling going on.

    • Fist Timer

      Hello.. I was reading this online and thought it was interesting.. Some I see as good points.. others well IM still trying to wrap my head around…. One of which is the negativity after the affair, why his outgoing, caring loving attitude as changed. He shows me love now somtimes, and says it alot, but the constant negative phrases bother me. Like he negative about mostly everything now, not toward me now, at first yes me, everything I said or did was wrong everything was my fault. but now its more toward everthing else in the world, his job, politics, how other people act, its like everything he see or hears the only thing he can make of it is negative.. before the affair he wasnt like this, now it seems thats all it is. Its not nothing about me negativly anymore, only very very very low times. like when we have a argument which thankfully isnt as frequent. But why is he looking at the “world” as negative.. Its like somthing will never be postive in my life again. What is it? Is this a phase, its there a reason? What makes a man seem to change so much of his normal personality? It used to be b4 the affair, that he could find the postive in anything any person no matter what. Now its like he cant see nothing but negativity.. Has anyone else expereinced this? Also here is a link I was talking about http://www.1lovespirit.com/nancy_wasson_2.html

      I want to get past the affair, I am trying, I want to beleive he is to, but does the affair really affect a persons outlook on seemingly everything… I want to be happy, and find postives in situations or people or heck just daily living, but kind of hard to do when you feel your spouse is only able to see negative and voice it to you daily.. uhggggggg its aggrevating.. Maybe it should be me seeing negative outcome or situations I didnt cheat and change our marriage or life, he did.. So why does he get the negative attitude and I have to endure that to?????

      • aida

        First Timer : you poor dear!

        I’m sorry you are going thro’ this : but the situation you are facing is still waaay better than mine.

        My guess is that his head is in a bad place – probably still holding on to the drug-induced highs he got during his affair. he is perhaps showing withdrawal symptoms. It may last a while, at least that’s what i think. I could most probably be wrong…..(sorry). But some of these things take time.

        Let’s trust that GOD will somehow give you a balm for your pained heart.

        May I also suggest you just look on the brighter side of things? (take care of your own mind, i guess : like what I am struggling to do).

        Let’s both start this day with gratitude in our hearts, let’s count our blessings.

        May God bless you all today, and may He fill your hearts with gladness. Take the time today to help someone in need, share a word of encouragement, and count your blessings and I will be doing the same. God Bless

    • Fist Timer

      TO… Aida

      Thanks for replying, As I told you when I replied to your posts.. I am still looking for answers.. And you had a very good point that I need to gratitude for the blessings, hey at least I am not the “bad” guy no more.. just on occasions. But that as he says he because he feels I lash out at him and its like I am sticking knives in his heart… ie trying to hurt him.. But its not like that at all,,, I say stuff at times because I am still so hurt and I still do not understand HOW COULD HE.so when this happens he says he lashes back because he feels im trying to hurt him.. ya as if I havnt been hurt.. Aida I know some of your situation.. and No mine is not worse than yours, because one.. he would have to divorce me to marry another.. and you well seems that is not a have to case within your culture… so you have a whole lot more to deal with in your situation.. O how I wish I could tell you my “story” but honestly you would have alot of reading to do.. my situation started 2 years ago, so maybe the whole situation were everything that comes out his mouth is negative toward the world… its better than it being toward me or our marriage.. I just wonder if this is a phase? IDK.. I hope… So Aida how have you been?

      • aida

        So i heard that too!

      • aida

        Dear First Timer,

        thanx for your reply. i guess Doug can perhaps tell you that your husband seems to be going thro that fog withdrawal symptoms.

        at least that my guess. it will prob take some time before he gets fully out of it, i guess. at least a few months. By the way, saying things “out of your own pain” is not the best move to make right now.

        believe it or not, my own experience has shown that these CS actually don’t take it too well when we ‘tell the truth like it is’. I suppose it makes it sound like we are blaming them for our unhappiness. that’s what guys think – that’s what I read from Men are from Mars and Women from Venus thing. I guess in a way, your partner is trying to show you how much he is hurting and he wants attention. that’s the vulnerable point for him, i suppose, and he wants to be supported, and your presence is to calm him down and soothe him i suppose like a baby.

        (wahhh.. i’m so clever. KIDDING)..

        No, but seriously, that is also from this book that I have been re-reading (2nd edition), Make Up, Don’t Break Up. It seems like some people love to hide/bury their worries and pain and they ASSUME their partner knows what they feel.

        There are people who wait for their partners to come and serve them, but when two of these kind of people share a relationship, this can be a problem.

        There are apparently people who feel ‘cocky’ or they don’t want to deal with their weaknesses and they feel the problems will work themselves out somehow.

        (if you can i suggest you read this book – or at least someone should make this book compulsory reading for every engaged couple).

        the thing to remember is = the author said that it is not enough to ‘simply give love to the partner the way you think love should be given’. in a nutshell, it’s not like we can just dump our negative emotions etc onto him – just because honesty is the best policy. The man needs to be nurtured and spoken to with love. I guess it means that we need to work harder to respect and love and support him if we want to keep the marriage happy and healthy.

        I’m sorry that i didn’t learn all this before I ended up in this situation. i kind of see a lot of points here but i guess = if i wasn’t in the current situation, the points raised in this book would not have meant that much to me.

        So, you ask me how i am now? i’m not too sure.

        I have a question to ask Doug tho, based on the current situation. i’m confused. i know how how great hubby is at acting (Oscar Nomination? Oh Please, he can beat George Clooney anytime. by the way did old george ever win an Oscar?). so, hubby is great at acting.

        I guess there are times when I am ‘dumping my negative emotions’ onto him, like yesterday (before I read the book) that i told him one of the biggest losses i feel now is that i feel i lost him as an ‘adviser’. Over the past two years especially, i sometimes turn to him for advice on how to handle pricky issues. because he is my husband. because he is smart. because i thought that if i asked him for advice, he would surely have thought of the ‘big picture’ and would give me good advice.

        would you believe it = now that he has this situation, Doug, i am the one who feels hesitant to approach him : it’s like I’m intruding upon his relationship with the woman that he loves. As if I’m the one walking on eggshells and I am the one who is embarrassed to be even thinking of being in the same relationship with him. And somehow instead of being glad that I’m about to go, i mean like i said he hides things, but anyway instead of showing his gladness that i’m consenting to his relationship, he is actually still cold towards me. He is silent and cold and distant. The least he could do is shake my hand and say thanks.

        oh well, i dunno. he could be jumping around like crazy in his head and heart.

        or am i crazy.

        tell me doug, tell me.

    • E

      This is totally off-topic Doug, but can I just say (and I’m laughing at myself btw, no real damage here) but in regards to the new format – I love some of the new pictures here since the new format – but others, like the one above – I could do without. If you ever posted one of a couple looking like that in a medical setting, I think I’d need to go to the bathroom and puke. Just sayin! 🙂 Am I being too hyper-sensitive? 😉

      • Doug

        E., I hear ya. I got that photo off of Istock and it was titled “office flirting,” so I thought it was somewhat appropriate. It’s not a great picture for sure. Every time I look at it the guy reminds me of Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. 😉

        • E

          Haha! I didn’t think of him but there is a definite resemblence!

          • blueskyabove

            Doug and E,

            I admit I have been waiting for the right time to post this. With apologies to Judith Viorst in a 1975 article in Redbook magazine I have taken the liberty of updating the players.

            INFATUATION is when you think he’s as sexy as George Clooney
            As smart as Sheldon Cooper
            As noble as Aaron Hotchner
            As funny as Larry the Cable Guy
            As athletic as Brett Favre

            LOVE is when you realize that he’s as sexy as Larry the Cable Guy
            As smart as Brett Favre
            As funny as Aaron Hotchner
            As athletic as Sheldon Coper
            And nothing like George Clooney – but you’ll take him any way.

            • Doug

              That’s great, bluesky!

    • aida

      A lot of you guys are going to think i’m going cuckoo and to some level i think i am.

      but i’m gonna try to do this anyway – no try no gain?


      We are going to try to pray our way to saving this marriage.

      When i say, We, it doesn’t mean my husband and I – it means some other people and I. and we are going to ask GOD to save this marriage.

      I don’t know if this is going to work but i’ve been told it’s worth a shot. and today, i prayed that GOD makes me a better wife.

      Now, i know that in some cases, our prayers may not be answered 100% but i’m hoping that by the grace and the power of GOD, hopefully there may less hatred on his part towards me.

      we are also praying that somehow GOD will make his less resentful of me, and maybe hopefully he will return to us/me.

      I am also hoping that somehow along the way GOD will also bring the EA to a natural death. I don’t know how, i don’t know when, but prayer is one of the efforts.

      a full frontal fight won’t get me anywhere. i know…..I HAVE TRIED.

      • aida

        about the prayer effort.

        It’s part of our mortal effort to save the marriage. If GOD truly wanted this marriage to be saved, if HE knows that this is a marriage worth saving, then maybe HE will help save it.

        if he HE knows that this is a marriage not worth saving, then it is perhaps best left in HIS hands.

        it’s like your first swimming lesson and you need to let go of the side of the pool. and you’re not sure how you are going to do later. however you have to LET GO and LET GOD…. with a little bit of initiative from our end.

        i’m nervous yet excited at the same time.

        • Anita

          Giving your hurt to God is very wise.
          God will take this and work it for your good, Read Romans
          8 verse 28.
          Aida, when I went through my own exhusband’s affair and
          our divorce, I asked God to deal with my exhusband and
          asked God to fix him. Well to my surprise that’s not what
          happened, I can look back and laugh at myself because
          what happened was God began to work on me
          instead. I was a broken mess, but it was the perfect
          condition I needed to be in, for God to change me.
          I wouldn’t change my growth experience for anything
          else in this world.
          God saw I was the one who needed fixing.
          It reminded me of what I used to tell my own children
          when they would tattle on each other, I use to tell them
          you worry about you and I will take care of your sibling,
          and never mind whats going to happen.
          This was pretty much the same concept with my own
          situation. It didn’t fix our marriage but it changed me
          for the better. I also forgave that whole situation.
          Wish you the Best, and God may bring different results
          for you. However he will work it for your own good.

    • E

      I love that Bluesky, thanks for sharing!!

    • A&W's Momma

      Hi Doug,
      Just wondering how long your emotional affair lasted?
      A&W’s Momma

      • Doug

        Hi A&W’s Momma, My EA lasted right around 6 months or so.

    • wifeinprogress

      Hi everyone! I’m new here…been lurking a couple of days and this is my first post. As much as I desperately wish I had no need of this site, I am grateful I found it and already feel like I am not as alone as I had thought. (Sad to realize how common this actually is…). Thank you Doug and Linda for sharing your story and allowing us to grieve and (hopefully!) recover together.

      I have a question that I’d like to ask. I don’t think I’ve seen this in my scouring of the site…but if I’ve missed it, my apologies. As with everyone else, there is a whole drama leading up to D-day (which for me was 2 weeks ago) that I don’t want to get into too deeply for now. Suffice to say, it all began almost 10 months ago and was depressingly similar to many of the stories I’ve been reading. My husband of 11 years woke up one morning and decided he wasn’t happy with his life, wasn’t happy with the person he’s become, wasn’t happy with me, had never been happy with me, we’re completely different people, nothing in common, we should never have had a kid (we have an almost 2 year old son) etc, etc… Classic midlife crisis. He adamantly denied any involvement with anybody else.

      Fast forward to 2 weeks ago. He (finally) admits that he has feelings for a woman he works with. He told me he feels like she “gets him”. They have so much in common and they have a connection. Blah, Blah, Blah…. You all know the drill. I’m sure many of you could tell me what he said verbatim without even being here!!! It’s pretty textbook. He continued to tell me that he thinks he’s in love with her or at least the idea of her (should that make it better???) but he realizes that due to the stress of what we’ve been going through over the last 10 months he realizes he could be confusing his emotions and recognizes that what he has with her isn’t necessarily real.

      Ok…so here’s the stumper (for me anyway…and what I’m hoping to get some objective insight on). He told me that he has never discussed this with the OW. He said it’s all been in his head. She doesn’t know how he feels about her (at least he doesn’t think that she does). He has no idea if it is mutual (she is also married btw). Sometimes he thinks it is, sometimes he’s not sure. In other words, he has had an EA all by himself!!! So my question is this: Do I still consider this an EA? Should I be grateful that she isn’t actively involved? Or does this just make the “addiction” aspect even worse? What do I do now????

      Well I guess that was more than one question! But I’d love and appreciate any and all comments/advice. I’m at a loss. I didn’t think anything he could say to me anymore could hurt me this much…but hearing him tell me that he thinks he loves another woman just deflated me completely. I’d rather he had a PA. That I could cope with I think. Love wasn’t something I was prepared to deal with.

      Sorry so long…really thought I could be quick and to the point! 🙂

      • wifeinprogress

        p.s. I love my little identifier pic! That’s exactly how I feel right now!

      • melissa


        Sorry that you’re on this site but at least you’re with friends who understand what you’re going through, albeit virtual ones.

        I would consider your H’s behaviour as an EA. In my case, my H was also dreaming up a scenario about the OW (much younger than him, attractive, single) despite the fact that she did not reciprocate or at least not as much as he would have wanted. However, women do have antennas and will know when a man is attracted to them. Most women (myself included) will gently rebuff the attentions and make sure that there is a safe distance between the infatuated male (and if he’s married, definite,clear, no go boundaries) and themselves but some (like the OW in my case) will use the infatuation to their own benefit (whether it’s dinners, help with a job, references, trips…).

        Your H is in ‘the fog’, it’s going to take him a while to realise it, hang in there and, as everyone says on this site, make sure you take care of yourself.

        • wifeinprogress

          Thanks melissa! I appreciate the support and thank you for your opinion. I’ve been driving myself crazy wondering if I’m making a bigger deal of this than I should (as per the H’s suggestion). I agree that women *know* when a man is interested…whether its appropriate or not. I just find it disgusting that any self-respecting female would use that to their benefit. Although maybe assuming they have any self-respect is giving them too much credit! Thanks again…

      • blueskyabove


        There is a real good chance that your H is not being completely truthful about the extent of his involvement with his co-worker. I’m not saying that he knows he is being dishonest. He may very well believe what he is telling you about her feelings. Part of the problem is the CSs inability to be honest with themselves and acknowledge what has actually been transpiring in their relationship with the other person. (They all seem to think that it “just happened” on its own without any input from either of them.)

        Based on my personal experience here are some possibilities of what either already has happened between them or will happen unless things halt now:

        The OW is very much aware of the energy fluctuating between the two of them. She also may not understand it, but she knows it is there and apparently (like your H) has done nothing to discourage it. Contrary to what some people believe, (and I will probably get ripped for saying this) the responsibility for affairs falls on both affair partners shoulders. Sure the AP could be ‘anyone’, but unless the other person actively discourages further involvement then they are getting something out of it at the expense of the unknowing spouse(s). Your H’s infatuation(?) with her would have ended by now had she made an effort to discourage him. People just don’t keep going where they’re not wanted. Like energy attacks like energy. Affairs do not happen in a vacuum.

        Your H could unconsciously be seeking your permission, your blessing. If the two of them have gotten to the point where they have decided certain things about your marriage then your H might be trying to figure out where he stands with you. Or maybe he doesn’t completely agree with the conclusion/decision and feels he needs your input. This I am fairly sure of – something has definitely changed in their relationship. Something your H isn’t quite comfortable with. He could be asking for your help without even realizing it. However, by not being honest with either you or himself, you can’t really help him. Unfortunately, this means he is getting all his advice from her.

        If you can assist him in discovering what it is that is really troubling him then you can be a major force in his life. You have enormous knowledge about your H. You have a lot of influence in his decisions. Don’t be a bystander in your marriage and don’t sit back hoping the OW will do the right thing by either of you. If she hasn’t backed off by now then chances are she isn’t going to back off and the affair will only intensify.

        You have rights, wifeinprogress, and you seem to have a good head on your shoulders despite the inevitable trauma you are experiencing right now. It appears to me that your H has ever-so-slightly opened the door to you. If I’m correct then he is asking for your help in the only way he knows how right now. Good luck.

        • Paula

          blueskyabove, I agree with your comments 100% It definitely takes two, and both parties have to have willingness for EAs/PAs to happen. From my own experience, we had an old friend of mine reconnect with me, who happened to be my partner’s ex-GF. Without any defence on his part, he and I truly believe it would have been MUCH harder for him to get involved with someone else – she made herself very available, gave out all the signals she was receptive to any advances, and put herself in the path of our trainwreck! He says he would have been too embarassed to approach anyone else, he knew (we all knew!) there were still feelings from her, even 21 years later. We were very silly to keep her in our lives. That is not in anyway excusing my OH’s actions, just agreeing with your statement about needing both parties to be open and willing for this to occur. Listen to bluessky’s advice wifeinprogress, she is extremely wise, and has resurrected her marriage from the depths of this pit, with grace, dignity, understanding and blimmin’ hard work!

        • wifeinprogress

          Thank you blueskyabove. I completely agree with Paula’s comments. I have read many of your posts and believe you to be very wise and value your input very much.

          I agree with your opinion that he isn’t being completely honest (and that he probably doesn’t even know it). He is actually a mess right now and doesn’t seem to know up from down. I don’t think he would recognize the truth if it came up and bit him on the ass!!! Since he’s told me about her it seems as if the excitement of her and their “connection” has disappeared. At least, this is what it looks like to me. I recognize that what happens when they are at work alone together may be very different. He might just be hiding it better than he was. In any event, he has tried to “clarify” his statements somewhat in what appears to me to be an attempt to downplay his involvement and the seriousness of the situation. In other words (HIS words, of course)…he didn’t have sex with her, she doesn’t even know about it, so it doesn’t really matter and it isn’t really cheating. But then he gets really defensive when I question him about his days, where he goes for lunch, etc. Has even told me point blank that he isn’t going to live a life where I question his every move. So much for complete transparency… And this alternates with him being completely distraught at the thought of not being with me and our son. It’s very confusing and upsetting obviously.

          I also absolutely agree that the OW is aware of his feelings and has done nothing to discourage them. She has discussed her marriage at length with my H and has disclosed a history of physical abuse. I sense that she sees my H as her knight in shining armour since he is very vocal about his disgust with physical abuse in any relationship. (Little does she know he has verbal and emotional abuse down to a science…) In exchange, I think he is attracted to the notion of a damsel in distress and she gives him the admiration and attention that had been lacking in our relationship. I am hesitant to focus too strongly on her and her part in this saga. I feel that by doing so gives her too much power and diminishes my control over my relationship and my self-esteem. My H has said this and I agree…she could have been anyone. She was just the one that was there and paying attention.

          I am the first to admit that I have certainly played a role in getting to this point. I took my marriage and my H for granted for a long time. I failed to meet many of his basic emotional needs and I understand (to a certain extent) how this happened. In fact, when this all started I was taking full responsibility for everything. However, we’ve been going through this for a relatively long time (10 months) where I have been very clear and active about making changes to improve myself and our relationship in order to make things better. We have been going to therapy for months and through that therapy I have come to realize that many of my actions were reactions to how he was treating me. He hadn’t been meeting many of my emotional needs either. He recognizes this as well and admits that it is a huge issue. Ultimately, we BOTH are equally to blame in getting us to this point. Having said that…I think I do understand much of what he’s going through and maybe he is asking for my help in his own way. But I can’t help but be discouraged that he claims the feelings started to develop for her AFTER we started going to therapy. So while we were supposed to be working on fixing our relationship, he was actively sabotaging it with lies and denial. We already had a two-page list of difficult issues that we had to work through BEFORE he dropped this bombshell. Now I’m struggling with – if he has indeed opened the door to me – whether or not I have the strength, courage and/or desire to go through it after every thing that has happened.

          I think I just took a meander over all different paths here and I apologize for that! But your comments really got me thinking about a few things that I hadn’t thought of previously and it sure does help to vent. Thank you for that blueskyabove!

    • Disappointed

      Just had dinner with a friend and heard the old “it just happened cliche”. What has happened to our world?! Unexpected feelings are one thing, but acting on them via text, email or phone with sex or no sex is another. Feelings of attraction can’t be controlled but what we do with them can. What happened to personal responsibility? My H and the OW made a choice, a bad choice. I will never be convinced otherwise. Why can’t they just admit what Doug did in this article. No boundries, selfishness, self deception, and cowardice.

      • X-Unknown

        Type your comment here…It just happened is pretty lame but the one that really hurts is the “We are just Friends” which later turns into admission of spending all her free time with him hugging groping and ? I’ve still not been clued in on how far. *Enough to get tested for STDs anyway. What still is unbelievable to me is the slick lying and even when it was really exposed (Cell Phone trail) she kept denying it for a while. Uck… Typing this stuff just triggers a really bad mojo for me.

    • Helenback

      This is my first comment on this site but I have been following you all for the last 4 months or so. Good, tough, kind people that you are! I’m hopefully quite a way through this hideous journey now….fingers crossed. D Day 1 was 2 1/2 years ago – no mention of the affair but the ILYBINILWY speech, Blah, blah, blah! but he didn’t leave that time. D Day 2 was 6 months later. I found his secret phone & all the undeniable evidence of the affair. He left immediately, rewrote our 30 year history, blamed me for everything and continued to lie & lie & lie & lie. You get the picture I’m sure.

      After 4 months apart we started to sort things out – or at least that’s how it seemed, him saying that he was no longer seeing her – fool that I was to believe that! He was renting a flat and I turned up there unplanned one night in Dec 2010 to lend him the car battery charger and found HER there. In his head, at that minute, he had a direct choice to make. He knew if he let me drive away that’d be it OVER. So he chose me, begged to come home and left the flat there and then and never went back, other than to empty it and hand over the keys. There was, as expected,a backlash from her (over the previous year I had received cruel phone calls and messages on facebook from her whenever he backed off from the affair so I expected some sort of retaliation) – she made a perfectly timed visit to our home on new years eve 2011 which was, as I’m sure you can imagine, not pretty for any of us,our two teenage children included (incidently one of our boys has autism & the situation could not have been worse) To say she is the proverbial Bunny Boiler is an understatement. But could hubby see that? Well obviously not because he continued to lie & lie & lie to me and 10 months later in Oct 2011, D Day 3 and he was back in her bed again! He had told me repeatedly that she didn’t work with him and it turns out that was the biggest lie of all and she was ‘in his face’ every day saying and doing all the right things at the right times. We really hadn’t had a hope of fixing our marriage, it wasn;t even a fair fight! – Not that I’m excusing his behaviour in any way whatsoever – he could have ended it if he’d had a mind to at any time.

      Anyway, long long story but I decided in Dec 2011 that I now had nothing to lose so I exposed the affair to their colleagues and word got back to HR dept at the huge college where they both worked. Needless to say that went down like a lead balloon. TOUGH. They were both spoken to at work, hubby handed in his notice, too ashamed and embarrassed – his words not mine – to work there any longer. SHE FINALLY let her mask slip and showed herself to him for what she really is – controlling, lying, selfish. AT LAST HE’S OUT OF THE FOG.

      He’s begging my forgiveness, saying he’ll do whatever it takes to make thing right again, looking for another job and CRYING A LOT. Well we both are actually. So hopefully the end is in sight although there is still a mountain to climb and he’s now still living with a mate and working on coming back home. Before all of this he was my childhood sweetheart, together for 30 years, since we were 14 yrs old, married for 21 years and never put a foot wrong – what a mess!

      On the positive side I’ve learned so much about myself through this horrible experience and do you know what? I’m OK…… What I really wanted to ask is has anyone else had repeated attempts at returning to the marriage? Do you think I’m mad to believe him him this time? Am I headed for D day 4 God forbib! Good luck to you all and thanks for all your comments that have gone before. They’ve helped me so much.

      • Anita

        Are you and your husband in counseling?
        3 D days, and your wondering if there could be 4,
        only your husband can answer that question.
        You need time to heal, there are many deep wounds
        you will need to address with your husband, and why
        he chose the behavior he did, and can you forgive him
        with time. Your questions show you have no trust in
        him at this point. Only with time and faithfulness on
        his part will your questions get an answer.
        My Best to you!

    • X-Unknown

      Type your comment here…I just want to echo the concern about your husband asking your permission. My experience is that my wife was asking in a subtle way if I wanted to work on our marriage with her. This happened after she got involved so our sex life was a disaster. I’ve learned from therapy that most women stop feeling sexual when they have a strong emotional relationship (fall in love) so… I being fairly clueless that she could be doing this to me I didn’t understand anything. I assumed I was a bad lover, or bad husband or what. I dunno. Anyway she must have felt something for “us” because she suggested couples therapy while she was having her affair. We worked on everything else and she got really upset. I was being super great and she (then) started feeling super guilt. Not that it put a stop to anything. When I was at last clued in we had a very emotional time and she said that she thought I was giving her the message “I don’t care about you” which was not true. I think the wayward ones hear what they want to hear at times. Anyway – I don’t know that I gave you any advice other then that I agree they really do ask for your “ok” to do this.

      Hang in there – take care of yourself first on this. I tried to fix everything with everyone except me and that was the wrong approach and unhealthy. *Stress, depression etc etc.

    • aida

      hello. i was wondering – two things:

      a) ‘loving you’.

      when we love someone, or rather when we fall in love with someone, we imagine that he/she has the perfect attributes of our desired soulmate.

      i don’t dispute that we can actually fall in love with someone. my question is : IF falling in love is really true love, then why are there so many failed marriages, and so many more failed 2nd marriages – despite the ‘fact’ that everyone generally marries ‘because we fell in love’.

      ~~case in point : when affairs happen, you find out that the spouse who VOWED in GOD’s name to love and be loyal to their officially wedded husbands/wives, is actually satan’s distant cousin.

      why? where did the ‘feelings of love’ go? We ‘fell in love’, right? so we should always be in love, right?

      my take is that PEOPLE DON’T FALL IN LOVE – they fall in love with themselves, and they love the way the other person seemingly loves them.

      Experts say that when cheating spouses (CS) with normally logical brains get lost in the affair fog, they are looking for something they don’t get at home (that’s what experts say). okay, they get all weird and mushy and idiotic. because they are being told by OM/OW how beautiful/handsome they are and how splendid and etc, just like the BS used to do – eons ago, because reality settled in.

      So the CS thinks “Hmmmm….. I’m not special to my spouse….I hate him/her”.

      the sad part is that the BS ends up feeling so inferior and regrettably suicidal, because the OW is cashing in on her shortfalls – she praises H, adores H, begs him to marry her. She – in his eyes – becomes perfect, because she tells him that he is perfect, regardless of the truth.

      and worst of all, because she is perfect, the wife is disposable, regardless of the truth.


      (b) Second thought : if the feelings of LOVE can change to HATE/INDIFFERENCE, then that means that LOVE is not permanent. and if LOVE is not permanent, then the other emotions, HATE/INDIFFERENCE should not be permanent either, right?

      I mean, technically, if emotions are fluid and intangible, then feelings can change – from one ’emotion’ to another.

      Thus technically, if your spouse LOVED you and then HATED you, that would mean that technically, it could change back to LOVE at some point later – if you wanted it, right?

      Hey, i have one more ‘pov’.

      (c) when they say, I hate you and there IS NO WAY I could love you ever again, they are actually thinking that there is no way they could love the YOU that they used to know (and hate) from yesteryear, right?

      I know that Dr. Phil said, “the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour”.

      however, we also have numerous stories of sinful souls who repented – and turned their lives around. Montgomery Gentry’s song “Some People Change” clearly states that.

      So, if a person can change for the better, learn from past mistakes and just generally be a whole better person, that should put us in good stead, right?


      Now, i am NOT saying that we should all change our values and reduce our self-respect in order to get our CS back. I’m just thinking aloud that there are things that are ‘fluid’ and that jumping of the 10th floor of my office building would not be necessary.


    • Anita

      Hi Aida,
      Infidelity is as old as the Bible.
      Where does the love go? I can only speak for myself on
      this. As a divorced woman, my love for my exhusband
      is different now, I love him as a person and as the father
      of my children. However I no longer have passionate feelings towards him as I did when we were married.
      So where did those feelings go? I chose to take control
      over those thoughts, and not entertain them, after while
      those thoughts and feelings left. When I did that
      my pain left. Then I had to forgive, at first it was hard but
      each day it got easier, until I was able to fully forgive.
      Aida, I know your in a grieving process right now and
      you have many questions of the how’s and why’s.
      I believe each situation is different.
      When we lose someone we love, we hurt and have to
      grieve that loss.
      Aida, I don’t know what the outcome of your marriage
      will be, but keep trusting God to work this for your
      Aida, take care of yourself and keep yourself responsible
      to doing something to get you out of your home for a
      couple hours each day. Dwelling on all the how’s and
      why’s won’t change what’s happened, its best to focus
      on the here and now. Fogetting what lies behind and
      pressing on into the future. My best to you.

      • Anita

        I haven’t read all your blogs, where is your husband at
        this current time? Is he alone, or with another woman?
        Aida, you have done everything you can, now its up to
        your husband to make the choice to work on your marriage
        with you. God knows what in your heart, and your not
        at fault for your husband’s behavior. He also knows your
        the innocent person that got hurt.
        However it is your husband who has to decide to come
        back and work this out with you. If he doesn’t its not
        your fault.
        God will heal your brokenheart.
        How long have you been waiting for your husband to return? At some point you may want to go forward with
        your own life if your husband doesn’t want to reconcile.
        God will not fault you for that. If your husband is still
        seeing this other woman, then he breaking your marriage
        vows. I would talk to your pastor and see what your
        pastor says. Sometimes just talking to someone who
        is educated in this area can help you move forward,
        one way or the other.

        • aida

          Anita, hi.

          thanks for your advice. i appreciate your support, although technically, like someone said recently, it’s a little bit more complicated for me….. I’m a Muslim and Islam allows polygamy.

          the situation is that we married for love. for the love our own selves.

          i married, i guess, because i felt that my mum didn’t love me and I wanted to be out of that negative situation. Well, mum did love me – she wasn’t your cuddly lovey dovey type of mum, but she loved me in her own way. she used to get clothes made specially for me for my bday, even when money was tight. she used to do loads of things for me. but maybe she was prouder of my sister than me, and I always felt that i wasn’t good enough EVER.

          I am also very hot tempered. most of my family members have short fuses. fights are not uncommon though i think a lot of it was because most members refused to give their ‘entitlements’ up – because of pride. I still aunts and uncles who hate each others’ guts.

          although I am Muslim, I grew up on American TV series – that came out of the imagination of Hollywood and LA. The funny thing was whenever there were angry men on the series, i’d know that the heroine was supposed to go pacify and love him until he calms down.

          but it didn’t happen that way with me. I guess in a way, i married because i thought my husband would act like the guys on TV and that somehow he would accept our loud volatile family = the way we were, just because everyone I grew up with a like that. I never knew any different. even when I was in college, i kind of had my own thing – never really had much change.

          funny thing, though….. my fiance and i never had much in common. we fought a lot, i was puzzled why. i knew he was stubborn; i knew i was stubborn too. however i miscalculated my own tolerance for other people’s views.

          long short cut short. I blew many opportunities. He tolerated. he fought back. I fought back. by the time the first affair occurred, we had two young children. between that time and the DDAY of affair #2, our relationship was brutally wounded because of lost trust (both parties), he was continuously being ‘lured’ by OW, and i sensed it but preferred to pretend to trust him but in the end, i found out that it was true. He still was “lost” to me. He said it is because i was still unchanged. I realised that it’s not that I didn’t want to change, i didn’t know how. I knew he was upset that I paid more attention to my job, to my boss, the kids, HIS MOM! and everything else but him….. so he was ‘lonely’. My pride and stupidity made me blind – i didn’t understand – i wanted to believe in my own ‘entitlements’. Honest to GOD, i never EVER meant to hurt him. HONEST. i just didn’t realise it.

          i changed in the sense that I learnt to cook, i ensured the kids were properly taken care of, i was nice (extra) to his parents and family – actually i have always nice to his family – and i sent him supportive messages. but somewhere between 1st and 2nd affairs, i realised he had built a wall between me and him, and the best part was – despite being found out – he never stopped his ‘relationships’ with any of the OW.

          He would ‘hint’ – i would be stupid enough not to truly grasp his meaning – even when i tried to break down his wall, he would get it right back up and tried to downplay my roles and changes. NOTHING I DID SEEMED TO MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.

          My first DDAY was almost 10 years ago, and the 2nd was in December 10 days before my sister’s wedding. i told him that it seems that he was keen to continuously ‘go searching for someone outside’, i was walking out with the children : he was welcome to his life with her.

          and he was upset about that. he kept saying that I was the one who was asking for the D (hence not him). i was sad but i saw no other way out. my hubby was continuously lost in the AFFAIR FOG and I was completely devastated – AFTER ALL THE EFFORT THAT I PUT IN TO CHANGE MYSELF AND MY MARRIAGE ! my children and my maid and even my friends had seen the changes i tried to make, why didn’t he?

          since then, there have been really weird instances. i told him i was going to the court-endorsed counseling en route to the divorce courts, he seemed reluctant – but in the end he relented grudgingly and after that his OW said, “Don’t divorce Aida” which is really funny because she is the same person who has been sending message after message to my husband even at 3.40 a.m. , and even during Muslim’s Eid, and all the while he was also seeing her on dates, and on long distance drives, etc. it was really strange to see my husband who plays two roles = loving and responsible father, as well as deceitful cheating husband who thinks nothing about sacrificing his marriage and everything he has for the OW.

          In Islam, polygamy is allowed AS LONG AS THE HUSBAND IS FAIR – right down to splitting his time, his affections and practically everything else. Well, if he intends to marry the OW, which I would not be surprised about (of course he denied wanting to marry her, but then again, he’s lied about these things before), well, if he intends to marry her – i already know that it would not work out for the marriage between me and him because he already treats me poorly due to my previous bad points. and he is not willing to overlook and forgive my previous bad points bcoz that would mean he would have no more reason to have the OW? Last weekend he came home from an outstation trip and he had his mobile with him (and he took it with him even when he needed to go to the loo). LOL! There are many, many more stories – i think that if Christians say YOU CAN’T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO, my situation is more dangerous because HE CAN HAVE HIS CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.

          I can’t even begin to explain the confused state we are all in. I don’t really want to end this marriage but I don’t know how else to get around his affairs. I mean one affair was a mistake, but what do you call two affairs.

          That’s why i turn to GOD = because i know that even when GOD allowed polygamy, GOD also said to treat women with respect and to give women our rights as respected and worthy individuals. GOD never said, Be Mean to the Wives you don’t like. GOD said to always be kind to women – it is true. BOTH GOD and HIS PROPHET said that.

          • aida


            i have also been looking at my own shortcomings. the OW is soooooooo supportive of him (i read thro’ their text messages).

            she is so respectful.

            she messages him around the clock ; a sign that she is thinking of him whereas aida is busy with her office work and hardly has time for him.

            she speaks to him tenderly (which is a real puzzle because when i text & spoke her on the day i found out about them, she was rude, obnoxious and really freaky. I know she would not be polite and kind towards me, but …..hey, if AIDA – who comes from a loud and volatile family – CAN CONSIDER THAT WOMEN OBNOXIOUS, well, that sure says a lot don’t it.)

            and i think my husband has also gone deaf, dumb and blind. he is willing to sacrifice everything he has for a woman who seemingly seems very comfortable enough in ripping apart his entire comfort zone i.e .his family, his reputation, his career.

            (she works in the same company. he is a VERY VERY SENIOR PERSON. she is a secretary to another SENIOR PERSON. most of the staff know about his OW. Not from me, THANK GOD. staff snigger behind his back. the theory is that SHE DOESN’T WANT HIM TO DIVORCE ME because if that does happen, and he ended up with her, it won’t look too good….. on her. or on him.)

            and yet he persists.

            hmmm…. some one lost their brains.

            • aida

              I subscribe to another person : and today this is the message I got today : “The closer you are to someone, the more likely you are to step on their toes. And being married to someone certainly puts you in close quarters. So the chances are good that you and your spouse have sore feet.

              Okay, enough of the smelly metaphor. The point is that it’s NORMAL for you and your spouse to err and for those “misses” to cause hurt…sometimes serious hurt.

              Did your spouse hurt you? Have you made mistakes that hurt your spouse?

              Except in the case of physical abuse, you can “move on” from anything. In fact, your marriage can end up even BETTER!

              I know…you’re probably thinking, “Better? How could it be better than before we screwed up?”
              It CAN be better, but you have to do one thing first. You have to forgive.

              What does it REALLY mean to forgive?

              Many people will say, “I forgive you,” but continue to harbor anger in their heart. Some people say the words, but it’s obvious from their actions that things are still different.

              Other people will say “I forgive you” but what they really mean is, “I don’t want to talk about this. I can’t deal with this. I’m turning you off.” And so the 3 magic words come out and form a wall that shuts out their spouse. True, they’re not angry, but that’s because they’ve shut down all emotion and refuse to reconnect.

              Saying “I forgive you” is an entirely different ball game than truly forgiving.
              Look carefully at the word “forgive.” It tells you what it means. “For-Give”…in other words, to GIVE as you did beFORE.

              That’s true forgiveness. When you GIVE of yourself like you did beFORE you were hurt, then you know you’ve forgiven. When you stand as close to your spouse as you stood the day your feet got stepped on–that’s forgiveness.

              That’s not easy to do. But it is possible. You can forgive each other and move on. And once you forgive, you’ll see that your marriage will be BETTER than it was before. You’ll be happy that the mistake was made (in a strange way) because you’ll realize that you would never have achieved the love you finally did without that mistake as your catalyst.

              Did you know that when a broken bone heals, it’s stronger than it was before it was broken? You too can be STRONGER than before things broke down between you and your spouse.

              Did you ever make love after a big fight? Did you ever think after you made-up, “Hey, this is great?

              We should fight more often.” (Ha Ha) Sometimes the highest-highs follow the lowest-lows.”

            • aida


              one parting shot, i hurt him by making him feel alienated and rejected. i made him sad and angry and pissed. and someone else came to take him away and nurse his wounds and help him feel complete and alive and vibrant again.

              he felt desired and important.

              THAT, i understand.

              and because of that, i told him = “I understand. I have been wrong and now you love her. I do not hate you ~ i am angry with you ~ but I don’t hate you. I love you but I don’t want to hurt you anymore. I love you and I want you to be happy”.

              I thought this action would make him happy. I was trying to atone for my sins. I don’t believe in killing a beautiful butterfly by keeping him alone in a tightly capped jar. More than that, I believe that beauty and fragrance should be kept alive – so that he can be happy.

              I thought we could be friends.

              Naive, much?


              but deep inside – there is this person inside of me who is crying and angry – furious.

              although i believe she got him on the rebound, they have been together for years ~ and it’s hard to believe that we are even on the same page.

              when i told him that i wanted a divorce, and i fully explained that I was doing it because I wanted him to be happy – actually i was dong it because i was so angry and disappointed in him – he seemed upset. as if i was doing it to reject him. he seemed to hardly hear my justification. he has continued to alienate me – as if he was angry and upset that I would have the heart to do what I am doing.

              i have to say though that this is not the first time that I have threatened to walk out. I dunno : i have always felt that I needed to run because i seem to never meet his standards and my brain is too stupid to sort things out. I become this uncaring wife.

              Even before DDAY #2, I sometimes backed down from talking or joking with my husband when he seemed to always frown or sulk around me.

              rather than force the wall down, i said, “OK, if this is your choice, i admit defeat. I admit that I was wrong and I accept all your blaming and finger-pointing. I am not sure if the girl is truly better than me, but she seems to be The One for you.

              But I cannot live my life the way you want it : i.e. joined in a three party relationship. I’m sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Not for me. I was willing to take all the previous nonsense but this is just too much. So Adieu my love and I will always pray that GOD protects you”.

    • Anita

      My heart goes out to you.
      Our cultures are very different, but yet we can still suffer the
      same hurts. I am not familar with the Muslim beliefs, so
      I can only wish you the very best.
      Take Care of yourself and keep posting at least you can
      vent here, and the people are understanding.

      • aida

        Dear anita,

        thank you for your support. however the more i read and read about men…..i think the support should also be given to my husband.

        allow me to explain….somewhere yesterday, i said that I had paid more attention to other parts of my life, even his mom. but not to him.

        i think this is where my biggest problem lies. it did not APPRECIATE him the way that other women were only too willing to.

        of course this is all an act….i mean, on the part of the other women. well, maybe not all of it. i really think the OW cares about him and thinks the world of him and i would not be surprised that she loves him.

        and i guess all that is important to men, and i know that it is difficult for him to let all that go.

        somewhere in the past postings, some other ‘post-ers’ told me that it was good to reach out to him (hi, HOLDING ON, long time no see! – is that a Malaysian-ised phrase? i’m not too sure if you understand the meaning).

        anyway, it may be true. i mean that I lost hm because i ignored him and now – only now – i’m trying to reach out to him again. Doug said there was a huge communication barrier between the two of us and someone said that there was a power struggle between my hubby and I.

        well, well, well…..it has taken me almost 20 years to realise this and UNDERSTAND …..and ACCEPT it. Men just turn to misshapen goo when they get admiration from women. It is like …. they really crave it.

        I once was so angry with my husband that I called him ‘weak’. he remembers that with a vengeance. i guess that was wrong, huh?

        i got no excuse. no ‘reason’ – i was just plain stupid.


        if I had not been proud, or strong, would that have prevented the infidelity. NO GUARANTEE …. but it would have made things a little less difficult, or is it more difficult?

        (I should have become a nun. —- figuratively speaking).

        • wifeinprogress

          HI Aida,

          Your post really struck a chord with me and I give you a lot of credit for being able to look beyond your pain and write about this. I wanted to recommend a book for you to read. It’s called His Needs, Her Needs by Willard F. Harley. It really opened my eyes to the emotional needs that I was failing to meet in my H. (To be fair…it also opened my eyes to the needs that he wasn’t meeting for me as well!). I certainly don’t say this to excuse the cheating behaviour of my (or any) spouse…that was an unacceptable choice that he made. But I am objective enough (most days! LOL) to realize that I played a role in getting here. My H didn’t just wake up one day in a perfect storybook marriage and decide to look for someone else!

          Prior to admitting to me about the OW, my H also read the book and confirmed that (for him, anyway) it was spot on with how he felt (right down to the prioritizing of the needs). It also made him see and acknowledge that he had “dropped the ball” too over the years. It also has a chapter that describes techniques to recover from an affair (provided the CS is willing). They are much the same as what Doug and Linda discuss on this site.

          Regarding your question about preventing the infidelity, believe me, I have asked myself the exact same question many, many times. I know where you’re coming from. But try as I might, I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that being strong and/or proud are characteristics that anyone should beat themselves up over or question. And they most definitely are not qualities that should/could be an underlying reason for an unfaithful spouse. Do you think that if you were weak or lacking in self esteem that it would have been any easier for you to show the appreciation that you feel you held back? I’m guessing not. I know for a fact it wouldn’t have been for me. I’ve heard of just as many situations where the CS strayed because they didn’t respect the partner enough and didn’t feel challenged enough, etc… My advice (take it for what it’s worth…maybe not much since I’m in the same boat as you are! LOL) would be to use that strength to help you work through this. You’ve already taken the hardest step. You’ve admitted that you’ve made mistakes and you’ve likely committed yourself to never making them again. There is peace of mind to be found in that and a certain amount of optimism that things can get better.

          I wish you all the best!

          • aida

            dear wife in progress,

            Hi. thanks for the support. In fact, i would like to thank everyone here for the support and encouragement they have given – and I hope i have been a worthwhile contributor.

            and about the matter of ego/pride and the book His Needs, Her Needs….. I have a copy of the book. i bought it after his first affair. but of course i was too angry / simplified in thinking to truly understand the message.

            It was like i was looking for an outlet for so much anger and fury that looking into his NEEDS WERE THE LAST THING ON MY MIND.

            This second time around (with a potentially more dangerous ‘rival’) is faced somewhat a little more differently. i continue to pray and ask GOD to save my marriage and return my husband to me, (and I roped in a few more spies than before too), but this time, i’m a little more ‘relaxed’. Yeah, i kind of beat the crap out of him a little bit for a few weeks – intermittently, and not as crazily as before – but i kind of also told him (off the bat) that I was okay with him and the girl – i just wanted out (with the kids).

            i guess in a way, i wanted to close the matter as quickly as possible. one affair was a mistake, someone told me, but two was just one too many. I decided there and then that i didn’t want to kill him once more. i didn’t want to grill him over the open burning fire once more. i didn’t want to hurt him any more. i guess because for the past few years, i have mellowed, and i have slowly but surely transformed. all the pain and frustration during the times he shut me out of his life and became emotionally unavailable to me, helped shape my endurance. i had rehearsed my ‘Goodbye speech’ so many times in my head, because i had a hunch something was up – but when doubts came i pushed them to the back of my mind, choosing instead to think positive and be the best i can be – although admittedly i still failed to understand that a man has his EMOTIONAL NEEDS that he needs to share with a woman. (duh!)

            I just wanted to share this latest piece of information – you probably know that we are Muslims and that Muslims practice polygamy. right? Not all Muslim men are allowed to practice polygamy – and not all Muslim want to practice polygamy. according to the rules you have to be really, really fair and really, really balanced to have more than one family. well, to be honest it is a big responsibility and i’m not just talking about the logistics of it.

            well, yesterday, someone told me that word had gotten around (in H’s office) that he had married the OW as the 2nd wife. I don’t know if this is true. anyway, i sent him a text message – simple, short, “Is it true” message.

            He replied “No”.

            I replied, “I see. Well, thank you for your kind honesty. I feel so sorry for you that you have had to endure such unkind gossiping”.

            truth be told, as i remarked to a friend, “It doesn’t matter if he is lying to me, because at the end of the day, TRUTH will always prevail. ”

            That’s not to say that he IS definitely lying. No. but we’ll see how things go from here on.


            the funny thing that I wanted to say here was this : the old me would have just considered it as a warning for him (that ‘Don’t you dare fool around, boy! you got eyes on you, even if they are not mine! you got people around you, watching you!).

            yesterday, instead of beating him up over it, i remained fairly calm. i messaged him a few times ~ asking him if he was okay, was he eating his lunch, was he okay, was he okay.

            The central theme was ‘despite everything that’s going on, I am concerned about your coping abilities right now, and even with all this happening right now, ARE YOU ALRIGHT?’.

            it took a lot of PRAYER, PRAYER, PRAYER and reading, reading, reading —- to do that. To reach that level where you think, “Okay, we have been together for about 20 years. we may hate each other’s guts, we have bad communication skills and lousy coping mechanisms, but regardless of all that, I am concerned about you. I know you always put up a strong front, and I know you always act like you are a macho man….primarily because I act like a macho man. but right now, MY OBJECTIVE IS NOT TO TEAR YOU DOWN, MY OBJECTIVE IS TO SECURE OUR RELATIONSHIP……. it may or may not be a marital relationship after this (who knows), but i hope we can find your inner strength again.’

            Tell me : do i seem condescending?

    • aida

      doug & linda

      i noticed one major difference between the Eastern culture and the Western based one. when i surf the local sites or forums on infidelity, there is always always some wisecracking person who will say “when ur husband is not loyal, you must look at your own self and see where u fell short.” Huh? thats not necessarily true. i mean a CS would have mistakes too…. he is only human. but this is the kind of mrntality that’s prevalent in many householfs especially where there are older folk present. remaining married to acertain exteny is “keeping face” (protecting your untarnished image). husbands are kings and ought to be treated as such. although this is changing more nowadays, with greater shating of responsibilities and authority, women are still generally expected to not have parallel power or authority as their husbands.

      AND of coz – aida, being the firebrand that she is – does not adhere to this and aida – being the idiot that she is – is definitely messing things up by being a fighter cock.

      thats why i LOL when i noticed that a lot of Western forums say “Kick the bugger/jerk/louse out! you deserve respect!”

      it doesnt help that i was raised by English speaking parents and the local forums are mostly in our mother tounge – and it does not help that im usually asking “why?” when people say “men are just like that…” and i go “what? have they no brains?”

      and there is of coz the truth “this is GOD’s test” – which i believe in. i believe God givres us tests so that he can educate us – to train us – to break down our walls of pride and HE will rebuild us. not that there was any defect during HIS manufacturing of us… HE needs us exactly where we are now so that we can fit into HIS macro plan. we dont see it yet becoz we are down here. GOD sees all.

      Kind regards

    • Jewl


      A great read. That’s exactly what I told my husband – “when I found out about your EA, many men in your position would have stood on their knees to beg me for forgiveness, that is if they decided to stay with me”. He on the other hand, continued to manipulate and rationalize the facts and refused to admit to any wrongfulness. Not only that, he told me I was insane to feel the way I did. All his unhappiness and why he had this precious friend is because of me in our marriage.

      Where is his morals, where is his conscience? Hurting me his legal wife while protecting his affair partner?

    • aida


      hi, a thought just came to mind.

      you know = a lot of times we seem hell bent on proving that our spouses are lying (or ‘falsifying facts’, to be politically correct).

      i know for a fact that mine lies.

      i know that i would like nothing better than to shoot him down with a cannon every time he dares to lie.

      but experience has shown me – many, many times – that this will not get me anywhere. nowhere. what it will do is make him run faster and further away.

      while i am not saying that we ought to tolerate lying or cheating at all, i do think that sometimes, we could try to ‘beat him up’ in other ways. for example through prayer and kindness.

      while i am not the most religious person (from any religion’s perspective), i believe that GOD is fair, GOD is listening and GOD knows what HE is doing. Nothing happens without GOD’s will and NOTHING is going to happen without GOD’s permission.

      GOD is the all-seeing GOD and I know that GOD is always there for us. regardless of whether you believe in HIM or not.

      Trust in HIM, and ask HIM to release your spouse from the clutches of darkness. even if you don’t really believe it, this prayer will somehow calm your heart.

      and you need a strong and calm heart to be where GOD wants you to be right now. i mean, yeah, we all want to be somewhere else – in a happier marriage or even newly single – but right now, somehow, this is where GOD WANTS US TO BE. for some reason, this is where GOD wants us to be : maybe we are being prepared for a bigger brighter future.

      every pain, every tragedy…. could be too big for us to handle…… so Let Go and Let GOD.



      • aida

        Now, some of you are thinking “How can i possibly beat him up through prayer and kindness”

        (some of u are thinking “Will Aida ever shut up”?)

        well the answer to the first question is “WE KNOW THAT WHAT OUR SPOUSE ARE DOING IS IMMORAL AND UNETHICAL”.

        imagine IMMORALITY like a fire – passionate fire burning and burning.

        what is the way to handle fire?

        through adding more fire/gasoline?



        That is why in ISLAM, we are asked to take the abulation (cleansing of our physical selves with water) when we are about to pray or WHEN ARE ABOUT TO GET ANGRY.

        Water cools. water kills fire. water cleanses the body and the soul.

        water is the enemy of fire.

        not more fire. it’s water.

        YEAH, no doubt your spouse will probably think you are weak or that you are a doormat. Let him, because, the more you fight with fire, the crazier you seem to him, and the crazier you get in your own mind.

        i have been there. i have done that, many times.

        because as the saying goes, ‘he who laughs last, laughs the best’.

        most affairs are just cover ups (cover ups to reality). when real, real, real life occurs, we shall see how well these OW cope. Who deal with the children usually. It’s us. Who handles family matters. Usually it is us. Who handles the logistics and demands of REAL FAMILY LIFE? usually it is us.

        so, what value is it that the OW brings to life? (let’s not even go there).

    • aida

      heh heh,

      the devil has been actively whispering idiotic things in my ear again, to get me riled up. so i decided to fight the idiot : (coz that’s what the devil is : AN IDIOT).

      anyway – i found something for your reading pleasure:

      “When a woman steals your husband, the best revenge is to let her HAVE Him.

      If the man cheated on you with another woman – and make no mistake no woman can “steal” a man because men are, we should assume, intelligent, thinking creatures who make their own decisions – and this man CHOSE to leave with his mistress, then what is the point in trying to keep him. What good are you doing yourself? You have a man, but he is a pig and the relationship is unhealthy. I’d rather be without a man and have healthy, happy friendships in my life than be with a man who :

      1. was a cheater and
      2. didn’t want to be with me.

      Women need to have a little more self-respect than that!

      When the honeymoon period is over then he could realise that its not all it cracked up to be, because when domestic life sets in, he will probably want his wife back.

      So then when he come crawling back.. that’ when the wife can take her revenge.. out on him.. just leave the other woman being lonely.

      And even if he doesn’t come back, the wife would be better off without him.

      • aida

        Another thing to consider when you feel like you want to seek revenge is that often the best revenge is living well.

        Instead of confronting her or seeking revenge, focus on things that foster your healing. You have the opportunity to hold you head high with your morals and integrity intact.

        At the end of the day, she is left with either

        1) nothing, or
        2) a lying, cheating dog.

        Either way, she will NOT come out a winner in this scenario.

        You have a chance to show the world that you are strong and that this woman isn’t even remotely close to being in the same league as you.

        If your husband wants to leave you for “that”, let him do it without dragging you down to their level.

      • E

        Aida, I LOVE this and love your comments! They have been very enlightening to me. Hoping for the best for you!

    • aida

      Emily Klotz: Forgiving the Unforgivable
      By Rob Hull
      The 700 Club

      CBN.com –Emily Klotz was out jogging when her worst fears became reality.

      “I saw a man coming towards me on the other side of the street,” remembers Emily. “He ran across the street and grabbed me and sprayed pepper spray in my face and dragged me across the street to where his car was parked in the woods and threw me into the trunk of his car. This is my worst fear and it’s happening to me right now.”

      She was trapped in darkness as the man drove around planning his next move.

      “I felt around and I found a roll of duct tape, and a screw driver and handcuffs and so I thought at that time for sure I was going to be killed,” recalls Emily. “In the back of my mind though I had all these regrets thinking I haven’t been married yet, I want to have kids you know all these regrets that my life is too short.”

      To calm herself she sang songs she learned at church as a young girl.

      “I sang some different hymns that I knew and I did feel that God’s presence was with me, he comforted me, his peace was there in the trunk of the car and kept me alive,” says Emily. “And the man who was driving the car must have been convicted because he turned the radio on and turned it way up to drown out the sound of me singing and praying.”

      An hour later, the car came to a stop and the trunk opened. Emily tried to make her escape.

      “I was able to scratch his face but he grabbed me and threw me to the ground and pinned me to the ground,” remembers Emily. “And at that point I looked at him and I said, ‘Are you working for the Devil?’ and he looked at me funny and said ‘No.’ and I said, ‘well, God is with me.’”

      Emily was thrown back in the trunk and tied up. Forty-five minutes later they stopped again at a house.

      “He brought me to an upstairs room in the house and handcuffed my hands to a bar that was near the floor and there he brutally raped me,” recalls Emily. “ (He) threatened my life and threatened my family’s life and that sort of thing if I told anybody what he had done.”

      When it was over she was placed in the back seat of his car. Her attacker made a strange request. He asked her to sing.

      “I began singing Amazing Grace in the car and I really feel this was God that gave me that song to sing because not only did this man, who had just done this horrible thing to me needed God’s grace and he could be saved if he received God’s grace but also, I needed God’s grace just as much even though I’d grown up in Christian Schools and grown up in church,” says Emily. “I didn’t yet have that relationship with the Lord, I hadn’t yet received that grace so I needed it just as much as this man who had done this horrible thing.”

      She was left in a parking lot near her college and called the police. Her attacker was arrested the next day, but Emily was left with deep scars.

      “I was physically hurting, I was emotionally hurting,” says Emily. “I was angry for sure, at the man who had done this and angry at all the things I had to go through to heal up. Angry at the whole situation that it had happened.”

      A friend told Emily that God loved her and wanted to heal her.

      “I was able to understand that that Jesus gave everything,” says Emily. “He gave his life for me because he loves me so much and he offers it to me and if I just take it and open that gift I can have eternal life. So I just prayed a very simple prayer, ‘Lord I do want to serve you with my life, I want to love you with all that I am, I receive you into my heart, I want my heart to be fully yours.’ And immediately the word became alive for me like it never had before. I heard Him say ‘I’m going to work this out for good.’ I began looking for good things to come out of this.”

      Emily continues, “I felt the Lord wanted me to forgive the man who had raped me He reminded me of Jesus on the cross when he said ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do.’ So I spoke it out loud, ‘I choose to forgive this man,’ and I said his name, ‘Father I want you to forgive him because he doesn’t know what he’s done and I ask you to bring him to his knees in repentance before you.’ After that I began praying for him often, for his salvation and that was a huge step in my healing, my forgiving him, because very quickly the anger started going away and the pain of the situation started to leave as well. Only God can do that, only He can do that.”

      Her attacker was given the maximum sentence of 30 years for his actions. Her words ‘are you working for the devil,’ and songs of Amazing Grace were constantly on his mind then. Two years into his sentence, he asked God to forgive his sins and make him new. Emily found out through a news reporter covering inmates at the penitentiary.

      “He gave his heart to the Lord,” says Emily. “(He) asked Jesus to be his savior and now he ministers to other inmates in prison and when I heard that on the phone from this reporter I jumped up and down praising God in my kitchen I still can see it and I was so excited that my prayers had been answered.”

      “Forgiveness sets people free, sets the forgiver free,” says Emily. “But it also allows God to work on the heart of the one who’s being forgiven. God helped me to forgive instead of holding bitterness and hatred towards this person. It’s just a beautiful picture of his grace that no one is ever beyond the reach of his love and his grace no matter what they’ve done.”

    • aida

      hi! did u know the one group of people that i envy – no, actually the two groups of prple that i envy.

      1) sales people
      2) translators

      do u know why? because
      1) sales people are trained to read people – thro body language, manner of speaking etc
      2) translators – esp those who work at instantaneous translating like at the UN.

      they are trained to read and listen to not only the people’s spoken word but also their “hidden messages” behind statements.

      its really cool.

      my messages are always plain. simple. to the point. blatantly honest.

      i guess it can be painful.

      i struggle everyday to change that. just like i struggle everyday to forgive. everyday i train myself …. my mind, my heart to forgive. even when no apology comes. even when there is no remorse. no sense of guilt.

      i have to. i m trying to not live in hate. most times its hard. but i dont want to be vengeful like him. i want to be loving like HIM. compassionate like the Prophet.

      its hard but not impossible,

      and like the shoe brand said

      “impossible is Nothing”

      Kind regards

      • aida

        to all my christian friends (even non-christian friends),

        do you watch youtube? go onto the 100 Harley Street tv show. It’s canadian (anyone here from Canada?) – its a Christian show and it’s for women.

        i watch it too. a lot of times. it’s not about the religion aspect – but it is about the religious aspect.

        it touches hearts and minds. it talks about how people leave their lives up to GOD and serve GOD with total reverence. They pray together, they lead their lives with GOD in their hearts and they literally breathe GOD in their lives.

        while i am not the most religious of people, at this juncture i know that i have lost most of the stuff in my marriage – whatever it was – i don’t even know whether my husband loved me when he married me or whether he married me because he taught i could fill in his void in life – whatever it is, we were both immature and self-focused. We lost a lot of years to arrogance and pride. Both of us.

        I know now – from watching and reading a lot of stuff including 100 Harley Street (I hope i got the name right), that GOD has a plan for us. Trust GOD.

        For my christian friends : Letting Go –
        Original Christian Prayer About Giving Up Control:

        Dear Jesus,

        Please hear my prayer. I go along each day, trying to run my life my own way. I forget to let go and give you control.

        I wonder why things aren’t going the way I want them to go. I forget to stop and ask what you want, Lord. Please help me to give you control, Jesus. I want to follow you. I want what you desire for me.

        Help me to realize that when you close one door, you open the one you want me to walk through. Help me also to realize that what I desire may not be what is meant for me, or what is best for me. Maybe it will lead me away from what your great plan is for me.

        Lord, let me accept each day as a gift. Let me follow the path you choose for me. Help me to be thankful for what you give me and not to worry about my needs. I trust you will take care of all my needs. Remind me that my role is to care for those around me and focus on those who need my help.

        Help me not to be judgmental, as we are all equal in God’s eyes. Help me to see the good in all of your creations. Let me leave the judging to you, dear Jesus. Instead, I will concentrate on living to please you!

        Help me, dear Jesus, be who and what you want me to be. Give me strength, faith and hope, and most of all, give me guidance each and every day. I let go and give you control.

        In Jesus name,


        For Muslims : My friend said to me today, just recite the Ayatul Kursi (that’s a verse in the Quran which literally translates to “The Verse of The Throne (i.e. Throne of God)”. Talk to GOD and say “GOD, i know you have a plan for me, and I trust YOUR plan. Everything happens for good, there is something positive in this”.

        Literally translated, Ayatul Kursi goes like this :

        Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him , except by His permission? He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

        • aida

          Hey, it’s 100 Full Circle. Not Harley Street! Harley Street’s in London!

          • aida

            HI GUYS

            why’s everyone so quiet? wanted to share a couple of points with you today.

            1) i’ve been reading (with greater insight and a sofrter perspective, after having left things to GOD)

            and I found myself reading more about SELF ESTEEM and EGO – and today, for the second time in approximately, I have found researchers claiming that people with HUGE EGOs (i.e. my H), are actually suffering from low self esteem.

            today i read – of all things – TSUN ZU’S ART OF WAR IN TODAY’S MANAGEMENT – and the concept of EGO and the dangers of its frailty came into the discussion.

            I called Befrienders – for the sake of having no one else to talk to to. I said that MAYBE MY H WAS AS HURT AND AS SCARED AS A WOUNDED CHILD AND HE NEEDED TO BE PROTECTED AND NURTURED BACK TO HEALTH.

            afterall, i had been a very aggressive and condescending person in my soon-to-be-past-life, and I have been making him feel weak, incompetent and un-manly.

            instead of being disapproving, i now sought to be more understanding and nurturing.

            the lady from Befrienders also told me that I needed to love myself first – so that I can feel good who I was – in my own mind. She said that ‘the inner self’ needed to be ‘corrected’ first – it needed nurturing, needed love, and it needed my approval and forgiveness. This was important, she said, because it creates the image that I want to portray. she said we are like ‘mirror images’ – we attract those who are like us.

            I thought Yeah, so that’s pretty much it – i was hurt because i carried so much baggage from my childhood where i was always second best in Momma’s eyes (or so i thought). I was angry and i wanted approval for what I was. not for what Momma wanted me to be. I carried that anger into marriage…. and I married a man who was equally as demanding in terms of standards as my Momma was.

            Trouble was marriage was a whole different ball game, and husbands are not mommy. no matter how your Momma scolded or fretted about you, she always loved you in her own way. You always love your own kids. Husbands have a choice, and they can shut down and walk away.

            so i learnt that I was merely puffing up my ego in order for others to see that I was okay, that I wasn’t 2nd best, that I was to be APPROVED and ACCEPTED as I WAS…. on my terms, not on anybody else’s. AND THIS WAS EXPLOSIVE WHEN COUPLED WITH MY HUSBAND’s OWN STRONG BEHAVIOUR.


            so he found the woman who offered him that solace, that comfort that he wanted – he longed for. and that’s pretty much what his connection to her is. She gives him a ‘soft place to fall’.

            I don’t know if i am ever going to pull him back to me, but as the Befrienders lady said, I must take care of myself first, i must love myself and forgive myself, and convince myself that I am good enough first, before I can work on others.

            (b) i have been playing Dewayne Woods’ Let Go and Let God song over and over on my iPhone, and on the computer. It is a reflection of what I am trying to achieve with my own life.

            and i believe that GOD today inspired me to seek out one more song “Bridge over Troubled Water” (simon and garfunkel) = i felt that GOD intended for me to listen to it…. I believe this was divinely inspired (LOL) because it came to me all of a sudden….like the thought just came “like a bridge over troubled water”….after so long.

            this afternoon, H woke up after 12 noon…. he had lunch, and was generally nice to me and the kids. I mean he had always been nice to the kids, but he seemed just generally in one of his better moods.

            he played around with the kids for a while and I thought “Alhamdulillah” THANKS TO ALLAH, in my heart.

            whatever the outcome, whether this marriage is saved as an exclusive relationship, or not, or whether it dissolves, my hope is that ALLAH will carry me through this …somehow. i turn my heart and my hopes to GOD and i leave it in HIS HANDS and I hope everyone will find peace as well.

            have a good weekend and may you all find strength.

    • aida


      I need help.

      after all the effort i have put into my marriage – the most curious thing happened yesterday.

      i went to the supermarket with the kids. it rained. as luck would have it, someone has been really stupid – H.

      maybe it’s a sign from GOD.

      anyway, what happened was i was in line at the autoteller machine – i had not been gone from home more than an hour tops – and he called. he said “take the kids out for tea. it’s raining here anyway.” and i was thinking “huh?” “by the way”, says H, “i’m going out and I don’t know if i will be back for dinner”. (i’m not breathing as i type this).

      and I say to myself ….”what?” so i asked him “How are you going out, it’s raining” – he has glaucoma and so he doesn’t drive. He said “there will be a way……. ” and in a slow almost unheard voice “someone will be coming to pick me up”.

      there was a long silence.

      i was silent.

      i ended the call. i called the maid on her mobile. i asked her to watch him. we took our money from the teller machine. we walked around a bit. we reached the next floor of the mall, and i said we’re going home boys.

      took boys home in drizzling rain. maid had given idea for me to hide somewhere along the route to his ‘usual pick-up area’ and that’s what we did.

      the stupid guy had given us enough heads-up time, serious – we managed to park ourselves in a pretty good location. and saw with our own six eyes Daddy being picked up by a lady in a Toyota Caldina (which incidentally is NOT the same lady he’s been reportedly dating).

      my son was yelling for me get the camera and i said no need. I wanted to – i was the one who told them to get pictures of it – but in the end i decided that it was kind of hard because of the timing etc. (the camera was my iphone which had been charging on the car charger and it would take time to unhook it from the charger and get into the camera and snap a photo. ) we were ill prepared because we were expecting a different person in a different car.

      i debated sending him a message that we saw him. i asked two people. one said, don’t send it yet….it’ll only result in a fight. one said, “let it escalate into a fight. you have endured enough. it’s time to think about your own heart, for there are apparently enough people wanting to care about his heart”

      i texted him that i wanted to talk to him later that night. he said ok. almost instant reply. i said “really? i’m glad”.

      but in the end, i didn’t talk to him….it’s now almost 7 am. and i still haven’t spoken to him.

      he must be angry. he must have returned early from his date because he thought i wanted to talk to him.

      (i had taken kids out to dinner yesterday, plus the maid. and by the time we got home, at 10 p.m. he was already home. i didn’t enter the house. i stayed in my car outside listening to Simon and Garfunkel’s bridge over troubled water. i spoke to a long lost friend who knows about my story – but she’d been away for some time. i spoke to her for 1 hour and 15 minutes. until i was exhausted. i got into the house and went to sleep – without changing, without talking, without anything. i don’t sleep with him, the boys are with me. )

      Prior to the dinner outing, i didn’t know what to do – so i called befrienders again. i spoke to a guy this time. he said the obvious – “i sense that you are confused, aida”. DUH?! and we chatted a bit , and i told him i wanted clarity and honesty – and he asked me questions like “so do you think he could give you want you want in your marriage, aida” – and i didn’t know what to say. BECAUSE IN MY HEART OF HEARTS I KNEW THE ANSWER.

      the more befrienders and i spoke last night, the more it became clear TO HIM that “I think you already have your answer, aida”.

      and you know what, Doug….. i think i do.
      oh my GOD, doug. what is happening. why? i have always known that he was a ladies man…. i just didn’t realise how much. and to think that he would be so stupid to give me 45 minutes’ head start – and the kids saw him too. and i don’t know what else to say.

      do i talk to him and risk a fight? do i face reality? i know he is going to either clam up, and fix another pick up point later which is harder to trace. It will destroy this marriage beyond repair. BEYOND REPAIR.

      now, if i really wanted to do that – which i hope i don’t have to…… if i really wanted to destroy / cream him good in the eyes of the people who matter most to him, i could. i know people in The BARIS (acronym to Persatuan Bekas Anggota Perisikan Malaysia or in English : The Malaysian Society for Former Intelligence Personnel or Association for Retired Intelligence Operatives of Malaysia).

      they ‘know’ people who ‘know’ people – heck, they are ex-spies. they SHOULD know people who know people. (hey, don’t laugh…..and old spy is still a spy. besides these people retire early at 45 thereabouts, and some of them drop out of service…. so technically….yeah, they are still in pretty good shape. and i’m sure they ‘know’ a lot of things).

      so, WHO was it again….who thought they were were really smart?

      yeah, i know = he is going to pull out the divorce card faster than you can say “hell-bent”.

      and that’s not what i want. i want a reconciliation. i want good terms – even if there is no reconciliation. but at the rate he’s going, he’s digging his own grave, Doug. He is. He is just generating enough rope for his own hanging. i’m sorry. but he is. and i can’t help him at the risk of my own sanity.

      (my maid said, just endure it for at least 4 – 5 years more. his eyesight is getting worse. he won’t be able to see in a few short years. I told her “I know. I know he will soon be legally blind. i know that he can’t even judge distances now. example : his official driver drives him home every evening. driver parks the car. driver hands him the key – he stretches out his hand to take the key from the driver. he misses – he shoots out his hand either too far to one side or …well, he just misses the key which is already being extended out in the driver’s hand….so the driver has to reach out and place the key in his hand.

      the maid ironed his trousers. he can’t see the where she’s put it.

      i moved a saucer – he misjudged it’s distance when he was trying to put something on it.)

      but he gets his girls to come pick him up at home. how about that. and by the looks of it – this girl has been here before.

      and we saw it with our own six eyes (me, two sons in tow).

      what do you say? if there is anything left to say.

      • aida


        i could send the spies’ report (in my mind, i already hired them).

        in my mind i could send those reports to his girlfriend.

        but H will know who sent them – he will cream me in return – and that’s not what i want. not for the boys. not this way.

        besides, it’s not civil. and i’m civilised. i try to be.

        HE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED “I DON’T KNOW IF I WILL BE HAVING DINNER AT HOME”. he was thinking of having dinner with his date. serious. what else did he mean.

        my heart wasn’t cracking last nite when i first found out. it was in shock. and it’s cracking now.

        i have never said this out loud – on this forum – but ….doug, i think i deserve better. i deserve someone better.

        and it isn’t me. it’s no longer my fault. when it was out that he was dating his purported girlfriend (the one who has been pestering him to marry her – if he hasn’t already), i blamed myself. “If only i had been attentive to him….if only i wasn’t rude….if only my sister had been less lazy….if only donkeys didn’t have ears and if only the Easter Bunny didn’t hop”.

        but i was telling boys …. this proves, that it’s not Mummy’s fault – I mean, if he wasn’t loyal to Mummy…that’s fine – i mean, i pretty much know THAT already. But he is ALSO two timing this girl who is set on marrying him?

        Kids and maid and i had a laugh – on his expense. we had too. otherwise my family will cry. my older boy said he wanted to vomit. (well he said that after dinner ….so, i guess that doesn’t really count).

        My younger kid, the family’s clown, said “Ha ha. the girlfriend must be thinking that “she’s the one”, and this next lady must be thinking “she’s the one”. and mummy is thinking “she’s the one”. ”

        maid said “it’s like that old 1950s movie (FAMOUS MOVIE ABOUT A MAN WITH 3 WIVES),” and my kid quips :”Yeah, you guys should be in a teledrama with Daddy as the male lead!” – wisecracking punk! (he gets if from me).


        so we all want to vomit now.

    • aida


      it’s in my mother tongue. i’ll translate it down below:


      Hey you..yeah youuu..

      Dahulu kukenal dia
      Jejaka idaman Malaya
      Semut pun tak mati dipijak
      Lemah lembut bicara..

      Semakin kubuka hati
      Semakin buka mata..
      Dia berselindung untuk
      Mengaburi langkahnya

      Kini ku tidak mahu
      Di tipu dengan…
      Si pencabul kalbu

      Mula mula kubenar
      Benar nak bercinta
      Dengan iya iya…

      Tapi lama-lama
      Belangnya keluar
      Rupa rupanya
      dia hanya suka suka…

      Ditawan dengan kasanova
      sumandak digoda kasanova

      Dahulunya aku permaisuri
      Bertakhta dalam hati
      Sebaliknya dia penjajah
      Banyak lagi yang lain

      Sia sia aku setia
      akhirnya harapan ku hancur
      Cukup sampai sini saja
      Percayakan romeo..oh..oh…

      Kini ku tak mahu
      Di tipu dengan…
      Si pencabul kalbu

      Mula mula kubenar
      Benar nak bercinta
      Dengan iya iya….

      Tapi lama-lama
      Belangnya keluar
      Rupa rupanya…
      Jahatnya suka suka…

      Ditawan dengan kasanova
      sumandak digoda kasanova

      Kini ku tak mahu
      Di tipu dengan…
      Si pencabul kalbu

      Mula mula kubenar
      Benar nak bercinta
      Dengan iya iya…

      Tapi lama-lama
      Belangnya keluar
      Rupa rupanya…
      dia hanya suka suka…

      Ditawan dengan kasanova
      sumandak digoda kasanova

      Ditawan dengan kasanova
      sumandak digoda kasanova

      dah sudahlah..

      Kini ku tak mahu
      Di tipu dengan…
      Si pencabul kalbu

      Mula mula kubenar
      Benar nak bercinta
      Dengan iya iya…

      Tapi lama-lama
      Belangnya keluar
      Rupa rupanya…
      dia hanya suka suka…

      Ditawan dengan kasanova
      sumandak digoda kasanova

      Ditawan dengan kasanova
      sumandak digoda kasanova



      When i first knew you
      you couldn’t even kill an ant if you stepped on it (that’s a local Malay saying to show how GENTLE the person is).

      the more i opened my heart, the more i opened my eyes
      found out that it’s only a cover for your activities
      and i don’t want to be lied / cheated by a DESTROYER OF HEARTS

      at first i was really interested to have a love relationship with you
      but in the end his true character is unveiled
      it was only fun for him

      I was told that “You are the Queen of my heart”
      It’s the opposite – you are a conquerer
      There were many others

      it is useless for me to be loyal
      my hopes have been crushed
      It ends here – the trust for ROMEO


      enough, enough already.

    • aida

      Zain Bhikha

      ” You Are Never Alone ”
      (because ALLAH IS ALWAYS THERE)

      Sometimes, when the world’s not on your side
      You don’t know where to run to
      You don’t know where to hide.
      You gaze, at the stars in the sky
      At the mountains so high
      Through the tears in your eyes.
      Looking for a reason,
      to replace what is gone.
      Just remember, remember
      That you are never alone.
      You are never alone (you are never alone)
      Just reach into your heart
      And Allah is always there.
      You are never alone (you are never alone)
      Through sorrow and through grief
      Through happiness and peace
      You are never alone.
      So now as you long for your past
      Prepare for your future
      But knowing nothings going to last
      You see this life is but a road
      A straight and narrow path
      To our final abode
      So travel well O Muslim
      And Paradise will be your home
      And always remember
      That you are never alone.
      You are never alone (you are never alone)
      Just reach into your heart
      And Allah is always there.
      You are never alone (Allah is there)
      Through sorrow and through grief
      Through happiness and peace
      You are never alone.
      You are never alone (you are never never alone)
      Just reach into your heart
      And Allah is always there.
      You are never alone (you are never alone)
      Through sorrow and through grief
      Through happiness and peace
      You are never alone.

    • aida

      Allah Is Enough For Me:
      (the story of Prophet Yusuf)

      When he was placed in the well
      or locked in the dungeon
      betrayed by his own flesh and blood
      convicted of what he did not
      handsome Yusuf sighed
      Allah is enough for me!
      Taken in as a slave
      made to work night and day
      resisting all temptation
      Allah is enough for me!
      Until the king had a dream
      Many hard years had gone by
      patience and repentance
      Allah is enough for me!
      Till…the fortunate day
      there he sees his father
      in the land of content
      Allah is enough for me!

      Handsome Yusuf cried
      Allah is enough for me!
      Every night brings a new day
      Allah alleviates all pain
      Everything has its end
      Allah is enough for me!
      Everything has its end
      Allah is enough for me!
      Allah is enough for me!

      • aida


        AS A MUSLIM, i think i will try to forgive him. not saying that i will trust him. not saying that i overlook everything and pretend it didn’t happen.

        i’m saying that as a MUSLIM, if i am to be strong enough to focus on my own salvation, and my own progress, i must forgive. hatred and anger are tools of the syaitan (a.k.a satan) and the cursed one will work to wreck havoc in life. It is so easy to give into temptation – and indeed i have every right, every legal and moral right to face up to him right this minute and shove the details in his face.

        but i’m not going to do that. after i dedicated the KASANOVA song to him just now, i had a bath – and i came out and found something reasonably nice to wear. the thought flashed to my mind “TALK TO ALLAH” – talk to GOD.


        hence the songs from South African nasheed singer Zain Bikha. the devil is trying to blow negative fires in my heart and it is SOO tempting to just give in.

        but i have seen the dangerous long lasting effects of anger and it is often difficult to change the negative into positive.


        In ISLAM, when we face loss, we are to say “FROM ALLAH WE COME, TO ALLAH WE SHALL RETURN. oh GOD, please bless us for the patience with which we have endured this loss / blow to our lives, and please replace it with something better”.

        insyaALLAH (if ALLAH wills).

    • Surviving

      @Aida, You said you don’t sleep with your husband but with your son’s. Do you mean you all three sleep in the same room?
      Also, is it really a good thing for your boys to have as much knowledge of their fathers infidelities? When you said how upset they were to the point of being physically sick it made me wonder if it’s healthy.

      • aida

        dear surviving,

        thanks. you raised pertinent points there.

        i haven’t exactly shared a bed with my husband – he zoned out a long time ago. i wanted to. we have a big master bedroom and the boys slept in the same room with us when they were babies. he started seeing other people i guess when the younger one was less than a year old.

        he started raising his voice for no apparent reason. he was evidently hostile towards me in terms of his facial expression, harshness and plain blunt rudeness. i guess i was pretty hardheaded but definitely still in the normal range. he had by then started sleeping in front of the tv (most times without even changing from work). when kids were a bit older – i moved them into their own rooms. by then we were so used to being together that the younger one would beg for me to be with him until he fell asleep. and by then the harshness and zoning out of the husband had been in place so long that sometimes it was easier to not be around him.

        he was also telling me I snored. if i did go lie down next to him, he would either tell me i snore – so i had to go away OR HE WOULD GO AWAY.

        but having said that there were there were times when he would be okay with my sleeping next to him.

        but most times i avoided him because i was afraid of the rejection. he would pretty much be upset and sulk around me a lot, even if i tried to be friendly, so i avoided him.

        little did i know that he was already dating women behind my back.

        well, i guess you can blame me on this one. i guess we aren’t physically close. so that’s a MAJOR issue there. he was always telling me how fat i was and that i turned him off.


        about the kids knowing about their father’s infidelities. to be honest, the 3 of us are so tight, we are kind of best buddies. well, no that’s not right. we are in this together. and i know u guys are gonna kill me about it. but i figure that they ought to know in order to understand what Mummy is trying to do. i probably scarred them for life,

        i talk them through it. i tell them why it is wrong, it’s like they have a Life Lesson in REALITY.

        they saw how he gave excuses. they saw how he told us to ‘have tea’ since it’s raining – don’t come back too soon, dear, it’s raining and you just take them out to tea!

        oh how convenient.

        and voila! girl comes round in Toyota Caldina and picks Daddy up. oh how lovely!


        if you are asking me whether I think this is a good and healthy way to live, i don’t know. probably not. but i think they ought to know. they ought to see it for themselves. if i die at 50 – that’s just 7 years away – if i die at 50 like my mum did due to cancer, at least my children know that what I did / am doing has its reasons. and they understand what is right and what is wrong.

        yeah, we all felt sick – sick in the stomach.

        yeah. i do too. especially me.

    • aida

      AND IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT the boys knowing their father’s infidelity and is that good.

      allow me to explain something. before this the boys were too young to understand – they didn’t know that the father had had another fling when our youngest son was a baby…maybe it started before i was even pregnant because he was already very harsh and ignoring me by then.

      my boy was born in 2002. his ‘fling’ came to the hospital suite where i was – i smiled at her, she pulled a sour face and practically gave me a bad treatment. i was wondering why. then my husband turned up and he was all smiling and grinning like a fool. they went downstairs together and she bought my older boy a red fire truck from the hospital gift shop.

      i found out about the girl eventually. when i first asked my husband why there was this girl sending him love messages, he said that it was a real estate agent who was after him (i.e. an external person). turned out to be a member of staff in his company.

      fast forward ten years later. okay, so i haven’t been the best of wives. my husband brings his current OW back into our home – the home where i try to create a family life for us – and he brought her into our home for several times when I was abroad. they took kids out ‘for tea’.

      HE TOLD KIDS TO NOT TELL MUMMY. about his ‘lady friend’. he told kids to keep it a secret from Mummy. Meanwhile Mummy was in London, working her ass off and she was buying a tie for Daddy and she was remembering Daddy with all her heart. Daddy never texted Mummy but he did ask the kids to ask me a couple of times : “Ask Mummy if she has eaten”.

      AND his shenanigans with the 2nd OW happened BEFORE i found out about it. so, he lied to me first – fully aware that the children would know – so….. how then? am i the one who is harming the children?

      and on Sunday, he specifically told me to take kids out for a meal – using the rain as an excuse – and he said that i shouldn’t be going home yet at that point because it is raining and so i should use that time to take kids for a meal. I told kids, Why doesn’t Daddy want us to be around? it’s really strange because it is this same guy who always comments about how i spend money too much. In fact this is the 2nd time he has done this. and for the love of GOD, his excuses don’t even make sense. “Dont’ come back yet because it’s raining”. I told the boys “Does daddy think we are riding a bicycle? we are driving!”

      and the same thing the Sunday before. Tells me to take kids out for meal after their taekwondo lesson. Because it may be that they’ll finish late and then they will have a late post-taekwondo snack.

      I would like to just say that THIS MATTER HAS NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE BEFORE. So now I ‘m thinking “Why? the timing isn’t THAT far apart. All we have to do is get the maid to prepare a snack and the i drive the kids home and they eat the snack. THIS HAS NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE BEFORE. ”

      Oh my GOD, i really don’t know why the man i married is doing this. Good GOD, the ever MERCIFUL GOD. why is this man doing this. Does he hate me so much for the nasty ways I have treated him before? even if that is the case what he is doing simply boggles any sane person’s mind.

      Has he always been like this.

      even my staunchest supporter in town – when he found out about my husband

      • aida

        sorry, my message ended abruptly.

        even my staunchest supporter in town has now told me ‘No more Comments’ because this supporter is simply lost for words.

        this supporter says – i really don’t know what to say anymore more Ma’am. I really don’t know why he is doing this to you.

        and it is somehow you yourself who have found out about this. it is GOD’s work.”

        to which I can only say “I let go and let GOD”.


        Otherwise , my husband is a good provider, he is a good father and he was a good son in law. always respectful, caring and attentive. always smart, successful, dependable.

        we relied on him. i may have been aggressive – i was FAR FROM GOD.

        but now, i have turned to GOD and i trust that GOD WILL PROVIDE. even in the worst moment of my life, I TRUST GOD SEES, GOD LISTENS AND GOD CARES.

        To trust something so invisible, to trust with your heart – nothing more but pure faith in GOD. only GOD.

        that is the balm of my heart.

        i told my kids – whatever Daddy does – FORGIVE. FORGIVE. because if you don’t forgive the anger and disappointment will eat you in the inside. It will kill you on the inside = even if you look the same on the outside but your soul will die.

        Hate will kills you. Hate and anger are the tools of the devil.

        the only way to survive this trial and trauma is to forgive. and believe in the power of GOD.

    • Disappointed

      This is still on of my favorite posts. How I wish my H would take responsibility for his actions and the mistakes he has made. We have been separated for 5 months but he is at our home 2-4 nights a week. He blames me for his affair saying it is textbook. NC since a few days after D day. Found out he plans to drag his decision out to end of the year. I cannot believe this is my life. He says he loves me and is not talking about her any more. Why cant he apologize and ask to come home…

      • Anita

        You asked why can’t he apologize and ask to come home…
        Because right now he’s living the life he wants and if it
        wasn’t comfortable for him he wouldn’t do it.
        He has easy access to you and he knows he can come
        and go as he pleases, so he does.
        He keeps pushing his decision further out, because this
        situation is working for him, so long as your at his beck and
        call, he has no need to change.
        It must be nice for him to blame others for his wrongful
        As long as you put up with this, he’s going to keep this up.
        Disappointed only when you get sick of this and have had
        enough, is when things will change.

        • Ifeelsodumb

          Well said, Anita! I was thinking the same thing! Why change, when he can come and go as he pleases…blame his wife for HIS affair…and she let’s him?
          He “plans to drag it out to the end of the year”? Well, it’s only because YOU are letting him, Disappointed!! When you FINALLY tell him, “I’ve had Enough, get out of my life”! THEN and only THEN will you see a difference!
          You DON’T continually hurt those you love…so you should wonder just HOW much does your H love YOU…when he’s treating you this way!

          • rachel

            I just sent an email to my husband titled subject: Enough is Enough.
            He”s using that whole ambivilant excuse to the sky. I’m sick of it. He’s cautious, Uncertain. Well, ya know what if maybe he gave an inch of trying and felt this way I could understand. I’m so sick of this game and i told him so. Sick of the hurtful words. I work on myself and get to a good place and he slams me down. I’m 50 years old hopefully with at least 30 years left in this life and I told him ” you’re wasting my time” just file already and move on. You will be fine without us. You don’t want to work on us you won’t go to couples counseling, lets just end this game!!! I’m drained! Sick of crying over him, sick of the constant headache, sick of spending money on clothes because I keep losing weight because of what he is doing to me! I don’t deserve to be treated like this after he is the one who has caused the damage in our marriage with his E/A.

            • Doug

              Good for you, Rachel!

      • Jessica

        He’s not apologizing because he doesn’t feel like he’s done anything “wrong” or has excuses for his behavior. Sometimes with them not living at home full time they don’t see the full extent of your hurt and the pain they have caused. It’s possible he does know this and maybe that is the delay he doesn’t want to come home and deal with it, he wants it all to go away and for you to be over it.

    • Disappointed

      I have refused the blame and told him that was a CHOICE he made. You cannot give an ultimatum until you are prepared to live with it whatever comes and I am not there yet. Yelling at me will not make me ready, believe me my family has tried. Everyone has their own timeline. Hard to believe this is all over a month text affair with no PA. He has to decide to grow up.

      • WriterWife

        Disappointed — I think you’re right that everyone has their timeline and you can’t give an ultimatum until you’re prepared to live with whatever comes. I know from my own situation that my gut was telling me to ask my H to leave but I knew that a part of me was hoping that if I did he would beg to stay (or if I left he’d chase after me trying to win me back). I worried I was making the decision into some sort of test or a game and I knew that if I left and he didn’t follow I’d be devastated.

        And then one day I woke up in the morning, took a long walk, and knew this wasn’t how I wanted to live my life. My husband was still hanging on to the OW. I decided that he had to choose: me or her. I wanted him to choose me, but I also knew in my heart and in my gut that if he couldn’t — if he wouldn’t — choose me, then I would move on. I decided I could not continue being with him while he refused to let go of the OW. I was worth more, and I deserved more.

        At this point I think all you can do is focus on yourself because you can’t change him and you can’t force him to grow up (unfortunately). So long as you’re taking care of yourself I think you’ll know when it’s time to give the ultimatum and, if the outcome isn’t what you’d want it to be, you’ll be strong enough to handle it.

        • aida

          WriterWife : this is exactly what I feel. exactly.

          I too know that that if I left and he didn’t follow I’d also be devastated. I’m still crushed now as it is.

          wanna hear a funny story? this morning, after pre-dawn prayers, i spoke to GOD and said to HIM for the first time ever – “GOD, please give my heart happiness. please ‘entertain’ my heart”. Okay, so maybe it sounds better in my local language than in English, but that’s what it meant.

          that was the first time i ever asked GOD for such a thing.

          and maybe it was GOD’s voice i heard later that same morning. at one point, after I had all the sad things :

          a) I was thinking how good he looked in his office attire all dressed up for work – and i was thinking how handsome he looked even when we were dating – and i suddenly thought, Oh dear, he’s with her now, so there are more memories of her than of me, and suddenly a quiet thought came to mind “IT’S OKAY. EVEN IF HE DOESN’T REMEMBER IT, I WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEMORIES”. (i know i have said that to myself before….so i dunno if this is GOD’s voice or mine).

          b) and then when husband got up to get his stuff / cigarettes – another quiet thought came uncalled for in my mind “HE IS NOT WORTH IT”. (honest to GOD, this is what came across my mind…) and the thought continued just before hubby sat down again, “HE IS A LIAR AND A CHEATER, SO HE’S NOT WORTH IT”.

          of course ‘voices in your head’ doesn’t necessarily mean it is the voice of GOD, it could be whisperings of the enemy….. although I know some Christian websites say you are supposed to remain still and quiet and listen to an inner voice that should be the voice of GOD.

          so yeah WriterWife, I know exactly what you are saying.

      • Ifeelsodumb

        Wasn’t yelling at you, Disappointed…put the caps on to make a point that YOU have to take care of yourself, that’s all…sorry if you felt I was yelling at ya 🙂

    • aida

      Hey guys, Morning!

      I am still greatly saddened and i know that my husband is quietly rejecting me and his heart is hardened against me. and this cuts me like a knife and it brings tears that i cannot cry because …..well, it brings tears that i cannot shed.

      i am always blaming myself for losing my temper, for being proud and arrogant previously. although being meek and submissive is not my original character but at least my own guilt would not have been this bad if i had been more compassionate and caring and had kept up my end of the marriage responsibility.

      Hence, when i read everyone’s mails/postings, i would like to shoot out a quick reminder…..my friends, we do realise that at the moment, we are all hurt and angry and bitter and completely emotional right? I mean yeah, we hate the WS’ guts and hope he burns in hell eternally.

      but what i am saying is that there are times when we are less angry and bitter and those are the quiet times when we miss him/her and wish that there was some way we could rectify the situation (as per Disappointed said).

      in the end we are all just protecting ourselves from further hurt and betrayal. which is completely understandable.

      However, such intense anger and frustration can lead to bigger and more bitter wars in the future. please don’t do what I did i.e. to not be sane. I was driven by anger (and hence the enemy) many a time and even if it is too late to save my marriage – IF IF IF – i hope that you guys will spare a thought to AVOIDING anger-triggered actions.


      and to those of you who are still mulling over whether it is worth it to save your marriages, the answer should be reached only after prayer and quiet conversations with GOD. hand it over to HIM and IF HE SAYS IT IS OVER, then my prayers and care and hand-holding goes out to you because i personally know how it hurts.

      IF that is the case, then allow me to share this with you : When GOD takes away something from your hands, dont think He’s punishing u…he is merely emptying ur hand, for u 2 receive something better. Have Faith!!!

      In the Quran it is said : ‘…and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.’ (Surah Baqarah: 216)


      allow me to just leave you with a parting shot – something that came in my email today – subscription to Imam Suhaib Webb (American Muslim cleric) about the concept of ‘too late’.


      It’s Too Late!

      Posted: 09 Apr 2012 05:00 AM PDT

      How often in our lives do we use the phrase “it’s too late”? It’s too late to forgive, it’s too late to repent, it’s too late to make things better again, it’s too late to apologize, and the list continues. Is it really too late though? Perhaps not.

      The only time that this infamous phrase is legitimate is after our last breath, after death has overtaken us. It’s not too late to apologize to someone. It’s not too late to ask Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala (exalted is He) to forgive me for all the sins I have committed, for every act of ungratefulness and for every disobedience to Him. It’s not too late to forgive others who might have wronged us. Maybe we are still breathing because we have been given a chance to realize that it’s not late for anything. The fact that we are still here is a sign strong enough to make us realize that we can still undo our mistakes, still forgive the unforgiven, still ask for forgiveness from our Lord, and still mend the hearts we broke.

      Sometimes we are too arrogant to forgive someone. Irrespective of whether we receive an apology for their hurtful actions or not, do we really have the authority to withhold forgiveness? If we can be hard hearted enough to not forgive the people in our lives, why then do we expect our Lord to forgive us? Especially when we continue ignoring Him by not fulfilling our basic responsibilities as a Muslim. No doubt He is all All-Forgiving, the Ever Merciful—but if we fail to adopt even a small fraction of mercy in our daily lives then we have no right to expect the same from others.

      In a hadith (record of the words or actions of the Prophet ﷺ, peace be upon him) the Prophet ﷺ states: Allah the Almighty has said: “O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its.”

      The Qur’an says:

      “[…] Pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves those the doers of good.” (Qur’an 5:13)

      “[…] who restrain anger and who pardon the people—and Allah loves the doers of good.” (Qur’an 3:134)

      Ja’far ibn Muhammad (may Allah have mercy on him) said, “For me to regret after having pardoned someone is more beloved to me than to feel regret after punishing someone.”

      Many a times we feel that since we have sinned so much there is no way that Allah (swt) is going to forgive us (it’s too late). But such thoughts are the work of the devil who entices us into believing that we are not worthy of forgiveness. This misconception moves us away from Allah (swt) and His worship as we tend to believe that no amount of worship can now undo what we did. Hence we give up on all our attempts at seeking forgiveness and we also give up on whatever worship we were previously involved in. Led astray by the devil at work, we tend to forget that Allah (swt) loves it when His creations comes to Him repenting and begging for forgiveness.

      “Say: “O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the Mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.” (Qur’an 39:53)

      Allah’s mercy is vast and deep, beyond human comprehension. But it’s the human aspect of forgiveness that needs to be reformed. Blinded by our arrogance, we hold grudges and threaten people with statements like “I will never forgive you.” Many times we don’t even mean it and we forgive immediately after our anger subsides but sometimes we may make it a point to forgive only when asked for forgiveness. This is not a trait liked in the servants of Allah (swt). We should learn to forgive others with an open heart that our gesture of mercy will inshaAllah (God willing) shower Allah’s (swt) Mercy on us.

      Apologizing does not indicate that we are subservient to the one we apologize to. It does not stain our reputation or our worldly status, rather it’s a simple action that signifies our fear of our Lord Whose ultimate Mercy we seek while heeding that our humble attitude with His people will win us His Pleasure. But we need to remember that this belief in Allah’s Mercy does not mean that we keep on displeasing Him with the assurance that He will forgive us.

      Brothers and sisters, let’s all apologize to our parents, friends, siblings, spouses and anyone else on whom we have inflicted pain with both our tongue and actions. Let’s all seek the forgiveness of each other in order to attain salvation and the Mercy of our Lord. Let’s not keep the forgiveness limited to texts and facebook statuses during Ramadan and in the last 10 days of Ramadan. Instead, let’s keep the spirit of forgiveness flowing all year around. Insha’Allah we will be rewarded for it, if not in this world, then in the next one.

      Remember, as long as we are alive, it’s never too late for ANYTHING. It’s never too late to make things right and it’s never too late to make several wrongs into one right.

      May Allah bless us with the trait of forgiveness and shower His Mercy and Forgiveness on us all. Ameen.

    • aida


      Found this : it is contradictory to a lot of other gurus’ advice so i thought i’d share it :

      “How to Get Your Ex Husband Back – The Real Secrets Revealed”

      Posted: Jun 19, 2009 |Comments: 0 | Views: 555 |

      About the Author: David Roppo –
      David founded Relationship Rehab for Women in 2002, and set out on a quest to deliver real relationship information that people can put right to work…. to make a difference! He is also known for being compassionate and understanding, and he works tirelessly for clients to help them find inner happiness and the relationship of their dreams!

      David Roppo is an enthusiastic crusader of what’s possible and is driven to make the world a better place one relationship at a time!

      1. If you are expecting a quick fix that employs mind games and/or jealousy you are reading the wrong article.

      2. If you want to forgo owning up to your part in the failing relationship by placing the blame on your ex, there is absolutely no point in reading any further.

      3. Getting your ex back requires patience and, most importantly, a willingness to make a personal transformation.

      4. If you are willing to invest time, patience, and commitment, then please read on!

      OK, let’s get started!

      First, I would like to list the things you shouldn’t do and explain why you shouldn’t do them! And by the way, these items make up 95% of the material that is offered in the majority of the abovementioned articles!

      1. Make your ex jealous
      Making your ex jealous to get him back may work initially, but your success will be short-lived when he figures out that nothing has changed? Yes, that’s right – hold the door open for him as he waves goodbye!

      2. Play mind games
      Even the best manipulators get tired of one upping the partner, and besides what you sow you reap. If that is what you do to your ex, he or someone else will likely do the same to you.

      3. Get a Makeover
      Certainly, a makeover will help anyone look better and that isn’t a bad thing. But, if you think that is going to get your ex back, you’re kidding yourself!

      4. Make your ex curious by using manipulation
      Do you really want a relationship that is founded on manipulation, deceit, and lies? This is nothing short of a disaster waiting to happen!

      5. Be friends with your ex
      Does your ex look at his female friends the same way you want him to look at you? If he does, then he’s cheating on you! If you attempt to be friends with him without fixing the underlying issues, then that is all you’ll ever be. You don’t want to be his friend; you want to be his lover!

      6. Go out with your friends
      Going out with your friends to take your mind off of the crisis will not fix it or make it go away. If you want to get your ex back, you have to take action – the right action!

      7. Buy your ex a romantic gift : This suggestion reeks of desperation and desperation is not attractive to anyone. If you want to get your ex back you can only accomplish that by attraction. Do not over row the love boat!

      8. Be Flexible and agreeable : It’s ok to be agreeable with certain things, but this can quickly escalate into appeasement. And, when you appease others, you generally sell your own self-respect and confidence down the toilet.

      9. Don’t contact your ex at all : Most articles will tell you to give your ex space, but it is really a matter of what kind of space. You want some contact, but it should consist of short, happy, and pleasant conversations. Above all, do not talk about fixing the relationship or what your ex needs to fix!

      10. Set up a meeting to work out your problems : At some point, you want to meet with your ex, but that should be at his request. And, you should not discuss your problems. Don’t talk about them –FIX THEM!

      What you should do

      1. Step Back and Remove your Emotions
      A relationship break up is a very painful and emotional situation, and when most people are in the mists of such a crisis, they allow their emotions to drive their actions. However, I assure you that injecting anger, resentment, fear, and desperation into the crisis will only worsen it and diminish your chances of getting your ex back. So, unless you want to inadvertently shoot yourself in the foot by completely pushing your ex away forever – Step back, remove yourself, take a few deep breaths, and come to a place of acceptance with the current state of affairs. Yes, that may be difficult, but operating from a place of peace is the only way you’re going to accomplish your goal. Then and only then will you be able to think clearly and take the appropriate action.

      2. Draft and Present a Statement of Agreement : Agree with your EX. That’s right! Even if you still think your ex husband is wrong! If you talk about where your ex is wrong he becomes more wrong, and if you talk about where he is right he immediately become less wrong. Remember, you can’t change him. Only he can change himself. You see, most people don’t release that if they agree and sound sincere to their ex while refraining from defending themselves their ex will actually defend them! They will not only defend them, but in many cases will actually reverse their position. Now, I don’t at all mean that you should agree to every request that your ex has and reduce your self respect to the bottomless pit of no return. I want you to agree with what he blames you for, in regard to the relationship crisis. I will admit that this is difficult, and you will be tempted to argue with and criticize your ex in an attempt to change him. However, you must avoid doing so. Focus on owning up to your negative contributions in the relationship. In other words, have you been controlling, critical, jealous, untrusting, or needy? These are the things that need to be sincerely addressed in your statement of agreement. Note: (I will provide a link below for more information on how to draft a statement of agreement.)

      3. Change your side of the Equation by Awakening your Feminine Grace : Let’s face it! You are in this situation because something went terribly wrong in your relationship. And, I am completely confident that you and your ex have both contributed to the failing relationship. However, this is not about who’s right or wrong. So, if you are looking to place all the blame on your ex, you may as well sign the (MSA) marriage settlement agreement or waive goodbye as he walks out the door because that’s what is going to happen anyway! Is your ex wrong? Has he contributed to the failed relationship? Of course he has. But you can’t change him! Only he can change himself. So, you may as well stop pointing your finger at the speck of wood in his eye and start paying attention to the log in your own. You see, it is possible to change your side of the equation, and that, my friend, is the very thing that’s going to get your ex to change his behavior and help you get him back.

      Making a personal transformation and awakening your feminine grace requires self-reflection and an examination of your own fears and insecurities.

      Do have a lack of trust, a fear of abandonment, or a need to rely on others for love before loving yourself. Are you jealous, controlling, envious, or manipulative?

      Do you suffer from low self-confidence and a poor sense of self worth? These are the things that must be addressed and changed if you want to attract your ex back.

      In conclusion, I would like to offer you some good news about getting your ex back. If you follow the principles I have given you, there is an 80% chance you will get your ex back, and your relationship will be more magical than it’s ever been!

      • aida

        hey doug…..haven’t been bothering you for a long time.

        i just have a question for you.

        when i first found out that my husband had the current affair (almost 8 years into it btw) i immediately returned the stuff he gave me from the credit card, to the cash he gave me an Eid gift, and right to the car charger for my iphone (in fact he gave me an earlier – more expensive one – and i lost that so he gave me that second one – which i duly returned to him when i found out about OW)..

        i had given the car charger to his driver – lying that I had a new one, and hence husband can just take that one back. His driver told me that Yes Your Husband is Aware that You Returned the Car Charger.

        well, four months after that, last Sunday, he asks me “Why are there 2 car chargers in my car?!” I was too stunned to answer – not in the mood to argue anyway. My two sons were also stunned = until the younger one piped up “Er Mom, didn’t you buy a new one the other day, and hence you returned the old one to Daddy?” – which in any case was a fabricated story but the poor child didn’t know that anyways – so i grabbed the opportunity and said “Yeah, that’s it! I returned your old one because i had bought a new one!”

        To which he replied (quite unexpectedly), “Why? is the one i gave you HARAM (Eng. translation : most sinful, unlawful & unaccepted / unclean / untouchable in Islam that MUST COMPLETELY BE REJECTED BY ALL MUSLIMS AT ALL TIMES). ”

        the same thing happens when i didn’t turn off the electrical appliances and he was commenting on my carelessness and when i didn’t respond he said, “You have always not listened to what I am saying, right? it’s always like that” – and the silly boy was pouting. (I’m not really sure if that can be counted because he was in a bad mood that day).

        All this occurred despite despite despite his constant ‘rejection’ of me : averting eye-to-eye contact, not talking / communicating with me, uneasy sleep when i lie down next to him / mostly building pillow-barriers or turning his back to me when i lie next to him, rejecting food that i cook, etc.

        on one hand he is completely rejecting me – and yet when i am returning stuff he gave me, he gets into this state that indicates he is hurting and wants my acceptance (unless i read that situation wrongly). or is all this got anything to do with the fact that our first court-endorsed counseling session is on 16 April?


        I have been in situations like this from the time i found out about the first girl 10 years ago…..he gets treated poorly by me, i get insulted by him, he lands in affair(s), i beat the crap out of him (verbally), then I change for the better, then he withdraws, he continues to withdraw while i continue to change for the better.

        he continues to see his girl(s) while providing for our family and extended families. he builds a wall between him and I – while providing for our families. I attend to kids, the home the etc. He declines my attention, continues with his girl(s) while seemingly hurt by my lack of attention. I get impatient, sometimes i demand for a divorce. He gets angry, keeps it inside and ultimately finds comfort and solace with the girl. I try to achieve lots at work while also trying to do my ‘own thing’ – in order to survive.

        and all this now …… i told him – well since you stopped loving me, and you love her, i wish you the best of luck. he reluctantly (and rather vengefully) consented because he said that I asked for it………and yet he is bothered enough to be extremely pissed because i returned his gifts?

        THAT’S WHY ULTIMATELY i say Leave it to GOD. GOD will know what to do – GOD will know what he is thinking.


    • aida

      guys, doug and linda,

      today is my first day of counselling. kids gone off to school.

      surprisingly, he has got the driver to come round and send us to the counselor’s office. i am a little bit apprehensive about that. not about the counseling so much, because my gut feeling tells me that he may not necessarily want to go ahead with it.

      even if he does, then i guess i have to face the facts.

      but having said that i’m really apprehensive that he has the driver to send us round to the counselor – i don’t know if he suspects the driver – but i thought he would have wanted us to go alone. which would have been more ‘normal’. or is this another one of his ‘family’ affairs which is opposed to his ‘affair’ affair..

      NO, that was totally unfair. maybe he just felt it was necessary. – though technically, it seems really odd to have your official (not personal….it’s an official paid-for-by-the-company kinda thing) driver.

      oh look at me, i’m paranoid.

    • nmwf1

      Doug, I have spent the past months talking and seeing points of view from betrayed spouses because I am one and like you my husband and i have been married for 32 years. he had an emotional affair with a girlfriend from his past and I am having a very hard time coping even though it has been 9 months since D-day. i would like to talk to you more, I haven’t read all the comments here because I don’t have time right now but i want to see if you respond here before I continue. thanks hope to here from you soon.

      • Doug

        nmwf1, Here I am! Not sure how long you’ve been coming to our site, but take some time to read the posts, comments, etc. I think that you will find the information very useful. Feel free to ask me questions as you see fit.

    • nmwf1

      Hi Doug, thanks for responding, To make along story short I am struggling, after 32 years of marriage, I caught my husband having an emotional affair with an ex girlfriend he hasn’t seen in over 35 years. It went on for 3 months, however she lives in another state and i know they didn’t get the chance to meet up physically, ( I caught it just in time) anyway throughout his affair, there were hundreds of cell phone calls, thousands of text messages, sexual picture mail of one an other, and ultimately phone sex, Lots of other details.(Not to mention he slept with her back then before he met me. ) However like you my husband is very sincerely remorseful, hes treating me with all the love and respect, and he wants to do anything he can to make it up to me. He tells me I’m his whole world, And that he is still in love with me and I am certainly still in love with him, I always have been deeply in love with him. But this EA has ripped my heart out. I never ever would have done anything like this to him, not ever. I am a very loyal, faithful wife and I expected the same from him, I am not a wife who has ever taken her husband for granted, I have always made every effort to tend to his needs emotionally and physically, Even when everyday life seemed to get in the way, I still wanted him to feel my love and devotion. So in saying this, ( I could go on all night but you get the just) What I want to ask is; what did you think the moment you were about to cross the boundary of your marriage, did you think of your wife at all? Or was it all about making someone else feel good about getting your attention? I cannot grasp the fact that my husband could just throw my love aside, risk his marriage of 32 years,to have some bull sh** affair with someone he hasn’t seen in over 35 years. But my husband also cannot give me an answer to why, other than he just got caught up in it all.. He made a conscious decision to look her up. And then make that call. He found her on the internet. what a surprise. I can’t swallow that he just got caught up in it all, because from the day he made that first call he was sucked in to calling her and her calling him,10 or more times a day everyday from then on , I am obsessed with the cell phone bill history because of the fact that he would have her on hold while taking my call, knowing that she was waiting to talk to him. I still cringe when I think about it because I can’t believe he could talk to me like normal.(how deceitful is that) Anyway this has hurt me so deep that I really don’t know how to just live normal with him now, even though he is doing his best to make it up to me. We have had several heart to heart, total melt down sessions. I can’t get over the jealousy of the OW and I still am extremely angry. i have so much resentment that I have had several out and out rages with my husband, i have been a total lunatic since this happened. I read your story and i see that you really are seeing the picture of the pain that it caused your wife, and i can assure you, there is no pain so deep. It hurts to the very core of your soul. But i get the since that your statements although almost text book in nature, seem like you know what happened but you are detached from the pain in reality, and you go through the motions to get your wife through. Almost like in an appeasing kind of way. I’m not trying to minimize your efforts in anyway, but I’m trying to understand. My husband has broke down several times during our talks, hes a strong man, but my pain at times have reduced him to such regret and despair, and its hard to see him break down and cry uncontrollable, he’s otherwise such a strong man., and I wind up in more pain because of it. I really want to forgive and move forward but the triggers keep getting me and I don’t know how to stop thinking about it. I just don’t know how to stop being angry. I ask you; looking back was any of this worth it? Thanks I’m just trying to understand. Help me!

      • Doug

        nmwf1, First of all, I’m sorry that you are going through this. How long has it been since D-day? I get the sense that it hasn’t been all that long, but please clarify.

        To answer your questions…
        “…what did you think the moment you were about to cross the boundary of your marriage, did you think of your wife at all? Or was it all about making someone else feel good about getting your attention?”

        Yes, I thought about my wife and family, but was too wrapped up in the attention I was getting from Tanya and thought (wrongly) that Linda didn’t care about me anyways. I was totally selfish and it wasn’t about “making someone else feel good about getting” my attention, it was about me getting the attention of someone else. I can say that I really did get caught up in it all and just let it spiral out of control.

        I can see as well how your husband got caught up in his relationship with his past girlfriend. She brought back a part of his illustrious past, stroked his ego and made him feel good about himself. He too was selfish and week and ignored marital boundaries. It was all about him, his ego and how the affair made him feel. I think the question you and your husband need to figure out is why he felt the need to call her in the first place.

        I’m not really sure where you get the sense that I’m detached from Linda’s pain and am just going through the motions. I don’t think that anything can be further from the truth and tells me that perhaps you haven’t had a chance yet to read more of our blog. Nothing is more important to me right now than getting Linda past the pain and sadness that she sometimes still feels.

        Though your husband is a strong man, I believe his breaking down is a sign of his remorse and guilt that he feels for what he has done. He doesn’t want to lose you and wants to make amends. Let him.

        Everything that you feel right now is completely normal but with a lot of hard work, counseling and time those feelings should eventually start to fade away which might allow you to open yourself up to forgiveness and ultimately, recovery.

        I regret everything about the affair and it’s effect on Linda, so no, it was not worth it. However, I must say that as a result of the affair, Linda and I have learned a lot about each other and our relationship dynamics to the extent that our marriage is better now than it has ever been. Obviously, there would have been better ways to accomplish that besides me having an EA.

      • Rachel

        We have such similar stories it’s scary. My husband of 24 years looked up his ex girlfriend from 30 years ago and visited her at her store. They went to 4 lunches and many text messages and emails. She met him all over the state to have lunch with him. She said that she should never have let him go and he agreed with her. He didn’t think of me during his e/a and the words he has said to me after the affair rolls in my head constantly.I’m in love with her not you. She brings out the best in me. We click. We are soul mates. We are leaving our families to be together. He said this all in front of our 15 year old son. He now is saying that he was confused and doesn’t remember saying half of it. And no I can’t move past it.
        He has said he was sorry but I really don’t think that he is remorseful. My heart has been also ripped out by this.
        Our marriage wasn’t on a great road at the time, but I see no reason why he had to look her up and see her. I didn’t look up anyone from my past!! And never would!
        He discussed our marriage with her and she discussed her intimate life with him.
        He said that he missed texting her like an alcoholic misses a drink and if he were a betting man he would bet that they will be together in the future. This after 2 months from D-day.
        I can’t get over the jealousy either. It makes my head hurt when I think of him kicking back having lunch with her. He never took me to lunch.
        I too have been a total lunatic since this has happened the rage inside me scares me. I have become a different person.
        Medication doesn’t seem to work just makes me tired and lazy. Counseling has started again now on my third counselor and hopefully she can help me get past some of this pain and anger and those awful triggers.
        As far as my H, I truly still love him. I don’t want to give up and divorce but I don’t know where to begin. Take care.

        • nmw1

          Hi Rachel, I just read your post now, It makes me nauseous to say the least. I had to sit and cry a few minutes before i could respond, I want to talk , but I am in a slump right now, I will come back to talk more when I can cope a little better. i want to scream right now……. I know you do to. I’m so sorry, I know its tough. Believe me I am feeling your pain right along with my own…….ugh!!!!

    • nmwf1

      Hi Doug, It has been 9 months since D-day, And even though my husband did cut it off the day I confronted him, and he did fall to his knees begging for forgiveness, I’m still in a bit of a shell shock,trauma mode from it all. I turned to your blog because I wanted to see it from a mans point of view. Even though it makes me sad that cheaters only see clearly after they fall. One of the things that is bothering me about what you wrote, is that , you and your AP partner discussed you and Linda’s marriage and you both made the assumption that Linda didn’t care about you, I cringe for Linda that you even discussed her with this OW at all, much less your marriage. But I’m sure the OW was happy cause it just drew you more into her clutches. A person like her has no morals, is a home wrecker and has no respect for herself. She knew you still went home to your wife and you were still in the marriage, but she didn’t care who it hurt as long as she got what she wanted. If the tables were turned and her husband was cheating on her, her life would be in shambles as mine and Linda’s are. (maybe Linda is healing now, but I am far from it.) (The affair partners are losers and what goes around comes around.) And please don’t defend her as an innocent party in the affair because she knew exactly what she was doing. (as I feel my husbands AP knew what she was doing to, she knew my husband was married but she was wrapped up in being flattered at the attention she was getting from my husband , that she didn’t care who it hurt either,) Right now i have a hard time talking to my husband about issue’s about the affair because my feelings are so sensitive about it that , The conversation will either result in a oblivious emotional meltdown for me or an absolute blinding rage at my husband. I started counseling., At this point it is for myself to learn to cope and sort out my feelings. My husband said he will go when I’m ready. At times over the past 9 months I felt like I was moving forward, but I can see now I’m no closer to healing. I don’t really know how it will help with my jealousy of the OW or my anger and resentment of such betrayal but I am trying to stay positive. You said it has been 3 years for you. I can see it will be a long, long, daunting journey for me. This man is the love of my life and I know I am the love of his, so we will both stay the course. I know that the (cheater) is in a lot of pain for causing the one they love such deep pain. But the cheater will never truly know just how deep that pain really is, it is a very lonely, self hating, stabbing pain, that settles in the bottom of your soul, it leaves you bewildered and lost . Grasping for your sanity and wondering where it all went wrong. You want to heal and you don’t know how. The one person who you once thought held you on a pedestal , and loved you and cherished you with all there heart, (and you held them in your heart just as strong) . Is the one who knocks you off of it.
      Its funny how a cheater won’t take risks with there money, but are willing to risk there marriage and the one they love. I just don’t get it.

      • Doug

        nmwf1, I’m with you there. I certainly realize now the mistakes I made during that time. Certainly discussing my marriage with another woman was not appropriate at all. And I would never defend her as being an innocent party.

        Though it may not seem so, 9 months isn’t a very long time for which to heal. Be positive though. It is good that you have started counseling to help you sort through all of this and that in and of itself may shorten the healing process for you. It is also encouraging that your husband has offered to attend with you. I think that shows his level of commitment to you and your marriage at this point. Best of luck to you!

      • Linda

        nmwf1, I completely understand where you are coming from and you are correct it does kill me that Doug was discussing our marriage and my feelings with someone who had no business being involved in the conversation. I am not taking the blame away from Doug but these conversations made it for easy for the OW to appear much more perfect and appealing that she really was. He was providing her a game plan on what he wanted in a partner and a relationship, all she had to do was follow that plan during the time they were together.

        Being in her position it was very easy to convince Doug that I didn’t love him, we had nothing in common and she could provide everything he needed to be happy. At the time of the affair Doug and I were very busy and stressed, our lives revolved around our children and work. We really didn’t have much time, if any to have fun together. She appealed to what was lacking in his life by pretending to be exciting, fun, willing to travel, take him away from all of his responsibilities. She also gave him the attention that I was unable to give at the time.

        The most upsetting part is she knew nothing about me or us, she had no idea what a close family we were. What a dedicated wife I was and honestly she really didn’t care. Doug had told me that early on when they discussed where their relationship was going, he said that he would not leave his family. By saying that he pretty much opened up that statement as a challenge to the OW. I know as a woman we can be pretty competitive when it comes to other women and relationships. I am pretty sure that she did everything in her power to win this challenge and try to convince him to leave his marriage.

        There are times when I beat myself up because I can’t be the way she was, but honestly when I think about it, she couldn’t continue being the way she was either. No one can keep up that facade for a long period of time. As the affair progressed Doug began seeing parts of her that were not so desirable and some inconsistency concerning her affair behaviors and her real life.

        Really it was all a game, a game we knew nothing about. We were just going through our lives innocently believing that even though things may not have been perfect, we were safe and loved. For just a short period of time I would like to play that game, have the power to manipulate people’s lives without them knowing about it. Just think how powerful that would feel. I am not sure if I would receive pleasure from it, but it would be nice to have that kind of control for just a little while.

      • Paula

        nmwf1, my heart goes out to you, as I completely relate to all you are feeling, and all the questions you are asking. I am three years post our Dday. The sexual and emotional affair my partner of 24 years was involved in for 15 months (!) had ended when his ex-AP, an old GF of his, who he had had a long distance sexual relationship with for around 2 years more than 25 years ago – who was supposed to be a friend of mine – I’d known her for over 32 years at the time – texted me to tell me all about it, in a moment of pique over “losing” the competition I didn’t even know we were engaged in. This woman came on holidays with our family, I went out on girl’s nights with her, she was close to us, you have no idea how much it tore me up, well, you probably do! We still love each other as madly as you do your H. It just tears you to shreds. You cannot comprehend what this man, this man you love and trusted with your well-being, has done – and WHY??? Please know that although it takes a very long, long time, things do improve, it is one of the most terrible griefs (second only to losing a child, I have heard, and I certainly believe it) but when you do the work, as you are, you will grow as a person, you didn’t need to, but you have to, in order to survive this unbelievable blow. I have felt as bereft as you, I’m not fully healed, but on my journey, I have learnt that healing does not look quite as you think it will. I hoped I would recover and be the same person, the trust would return, and I guess, things would be as they always were, love would conquer all, and I would be whole again, just the same as I was before! Sadly, that is not what healing looks like, and it takes a very LONG time to ACCEPT that your life IS changed, through no fault of your own, but that you WILL be okay. I wish I could salve your pain, I’m sorry that you are in this place, keep visiting here, reading, talking. It will never make complete sense, the OW will never understand the pain – ours was/is particularly nasty, and still insists that it was all my fault, I deserved this – even your H will not really – they can empathise, and feel REALLY bad, but they really can’t feel your pain fully, even when they are as remorseful and prepared to do the work as your H (and my ex) are.

      • Teresa

        nmwf1. what you have written is beautiful..in a pain filled way, if that makes any sense? You were able to share the depth of your pain, in written word…this will be read by many BS who can’t adequately express themselves, and they will then be able to share their pain with their CS…

    • nmwf1

      Thank you all for responding, It helps that everyone is here to help, All of this is very painful. But more than just being in pain over the affair itself and the selfishness and the ego and all of that, The part that will haunt me long after healing from the affair itself, is knowing that he felt for another woman, and that his heart was with her for a while. I will never be able to change that. Its like she took a part of him from me for a while, (real or not) a part of his heart feelings went to her. I know that his heart is totally back connected to mine now, but what a price to pay.

      • Teresa

        I feel that that is one of the most painful aspects of this kind of betrayal…that for a time, YOUR H’s heart was away from you and with someone else…I’m almost 18 mos out from DDay and when I think about that part of it, it still brings tears to my eyes! It DOES get better over time, especially if your spouse is remorseful and working to help you heal…hang in there! This site is a wonderful “release valve” for the anger and pain…use it often!! 🙂 There are some really great people on here…and Doug isn’t bad himself! LOL…Just kidding, Doug! ;p

      • chiffchaff

        nmwf1 – I’m also 10 months from DDay and it is still hard to deal with the fact that my H fell in love with someone else, and that he went to such lengths to deceive me in order to keep it going. It has taken something from us that will never be replaced and, although things are much much better now, that sadness remains and probably always will. I will still never understand why cheaters do what they do when more reasonable options are open to them if their marriages are so broken or damaged that they want to leave. It’s their weakness, yes, but it’s also so immature.
        I hope it gets better for you.

      • Teresa

        nmwf1 sorry, this is my 3rd post, I don’t want to bombard you, but I remembered a post that REALLY helped me and several others that I’ve talked to…it helped us to understand the pain that we were going through…and how it would just come over you, right when you feel you are getting better…here it is…https://www.emotionalaffair.org/the-four-stages-of-healing-after-an-affair/
        You might want to share it with your H so he can better understand you and the many different stages of EA recovery…

    • nmw1

      Hi All, Doug, I have read your story over and over, still trying to grasp some since of reason in it all. Something you said really bothers me. ( I have been discussing this topic with another betrayed spouse who is struggling to.) I cannot grasp that you continued to see the OW even after Linda found out. I know in my heart that my husband cut it off D-day with a final call that I made him make to her. But If he would have, so much as wrote her a text message saying he was sorry, after that day, we would be separated at this point instead of living together trying to recover. It takes a strong person to hang in there when the person you love is pouring salt in an open wound. An I am not that strong.

      But aside from that, I want to know how you were able to face Linda with such betrayal behind her back. I love my husband, i built my whole world around him. And yet when all of this was going on, he was able to face me as if everything was normal. How does a person do that? How do they look you in the eye with such deceit? Like you; he says he wasn’t himself, that it wasn’t him, I don’t buy the affair fog bull s*** because I think a person knows exactly what they are doing at the time, I think they are just enjoying it so much that they really don’t care about their spouse or the consequences that lye ahead . Not to mention they probably think they can hide it and nobody will ever find out. And what about guilt? If you really love someone; how can you cross the line and not think to yourself (WHAT THE F*** am I doing to my wife this will kill her ) and not turn around at that point? Instead do it anyway. I could not live with myself if I had done that to my husband. I have had men try to flirt or come on to me before, even ones I would otherwise be attracted to,and maybe it was flattering “”BUT” I would never even engage, and would always put a stop to it immediately, not just because I have moral fiber , but because I love my husband and cherish our marriage vows, and because i would never want my husband to feel the way I feel right now. But he couldn’t do the same for me and that’s what hurts.

      I’m sorry that I am so negative about the reasons,(maybe its my pain talking ) but frankly I see them as excuses. Hind site is 20/20. Reasons would make it rational. I don’t see any reason a person can give that would make betrayal and infidelity rational. I’m sorry, but I am tortured , I’m angry, I’m sad, I’m jealous and I don’t trust anymore. And I want to love my husband without this nagging pain in my heart. How do I do that?

    • Disappointed

      I am just as hurt today if not more so than when I discovered the EA 7months ago. My H had an EA with a friend and student of his, a married mother of two 7 years younger than me. When I confronted him he left. He cried to me that he had fallen in love with her and that she shared his view on relationships (no marriage just date with separate residences). NC since 2 days post D-day. He moved out 2 days later. He has said he no longer has those feelings (whatever they were) and has admitted it never would have worked. He has said so many hurtful things. Said she was innocent and was only interested in protecting HER threatened me with never seeing him again and the death of our company. I feel betrayed by her as well. She had attended my birthday dinner and I used $14k of my retirement money to give her an opportunity to sing an opera role with orchestra. He said we are a bad combination and toxic to each other. Looked at me with disdain and said “we were never soul mates” but did not claim they were. And yet he has not truly walked away and stays at our home 50% of every week or more. 3 weeks ago I discovered a used condom wrapper in his suitcase after a biz trip. How can he still be looking me in the eye? Was it really just an EA? I feel like I don’t know anything any more. I am in as much pain now as I was months ago. In fact it is worse because all my hope is leaving. How could I be so wrong about him? What is the truth? And how do I go on without ever knowing it.

      • Anita

        With you finding the used wrapper, also his EA, and him
        having his own apartment, and only being at your place 50% of the time.
        A good husband would live at home, have no EA and you
        wouldn’t be finding used condom wrappper after a biz trip.
        You have to decide if you can live like this, otherwise he
        doing what he wants when he wants and doesn’t care.
        As long as your going to put up with this,he will continue
        there’s no reason for him to stop.
        Its up to you to decide how long you can go along with this,
        before you have had enough.

    • Surviving


      I agree with you the fog is BS and nothing more than excuses.
      I am not strong either I found out about the EA no physical when I over heard him ending it with her. It’s been almost two years.
      In time the pain does fade the pain isn’t as intense.

      But the truth is he wanted to do this each and every time he contacted her he wanted to each time they met for lunch he wanted to.
      I refuse to believe he was in a fog during this time.

      • Recovering

        I didnt believe in the “affair fog” at first either… I didn’t, but it has been a year since I found out about his 2 year PA, and I do believe it! He had all of these weird ideas about how he thought that I felt about him! We lived in the same house, and saw each other mostly just on weekends (he went to school in the evenings), and even then, there was no “US” time because life got in the way. I didn’t put him first. Always thought that our marriage would become normal when he was done with school and THEN we could be together again as a couple. He was weak. He was lonely, and SHE started hitting on him, making him feel special and he liked it. They kissed but didn’t have sex ’til 5 months later. He KNEW it was wrong, yes, and I think that is why it took so long for them to do it (and it ALWAYS involved alcohol – liquid courage, as he calls it, so now I REFUSE to be with him if he is drinking). Once the whore started giving him attention, he started going back for more stroking, and then he couldn’t get enough. And I was tired, and grouchy, and going through depression on my own, and so it was easy for him to make up this horrible life with me because at that time I was never happy, and of course for me he was my rock, the one I complained to, so he saw me as a negative person, who since I was never happy couldnt love him… Of course I did… then he gave in, and he needed it. She was nothing special. It never occured to him that SHE was a liar and a cheater – she was married too, with young children… ordinarily this type of person he would’ve judged HARSHLY… but he was getting what he thought he needed… he never even considered the fact that SHE was still sleeping with her husband the whole time she was telling him she loved him. Never occured to him that SHE WAS A WHORE. Then he would have had to look at himself… they lie to themselves more than they lie to us, which seems impossible, but it is true… Since he has been caught and is out of school, I haven’t changed at all, but now he is totally back in love with ME! His lies were exposed and his fantasy flattened, and he realized everything HE believed wasn’t true… though at the time he really felt it was. THAT is the fog. THey delude themselves to deal wih the guilt. Not good, not right, not fair… but people do it all of the time. I wish you the best of luck. I am not this objective all of the time – I still hate him sometimes for being a sick prick, but I love him more, and I deserve better…. Good luck.

        • nmwf1

          Hi Recovering, I still don’t believe in affair fog (especially if it has to do with a reason or an excuse for the affair) , because you have to let yourself get into an affair in the first place. In my opinion, affair- fog is just another word for a cheater who cant see clear because they have their head stuck up their AP’s A** instead of seeing the destruction they are doing to their own marriage.

    • Surviving

      Sone CS were/are in love with, infatuated with and addicted to the OW or OW’s…
      I have yet so see any addiction therapy that let’s the person seaking therapy excuse their behavior by saying they were in a fog.
      Of course it sounds so much better to say my CS was in a fog.
      I choose to call it as it is they make a choice to call text sleep with the OW and when and if they decide not to be infatuated with, in love with or addicted to the OW or OWomen then the marriage or relationship can start to recover.

    • nmwf1

      Hello Doug, I’m still reeling for answers, I once again have questions of what you wrote. You said yourself after talking to Tanya, you rewrote the story on your wonderful marriage. It seems to me unless I am mistaken, you knew you had a wonderful marriage to Linda before you crossed the line, and yet when faced with temptation; you were just plain weak. But i don’t understand how a man can know he has a wonderful marriage, a wonderful faithful wife, can know how much he loves his wife and knows how much she loves him, and know full well that infidelity even in the smallest measurement would certainly hurt his wife, much less a full blown affair which he knows would flat destroy her and his marriage. And yet is willing to risk all of that, because some bimbo named Tanya, who knows full well he is married, Flirts with him, REALLY DOUG? REALLY? I read Linda’s post as well and she said you have a very close nit family and i think if she felt that way, than certainly you did to. Linda kind of defended you in saying that she was busy, you were busy, basically life just got in the way, but no matter how you slice it, we all have issues in everyday life, but we don’t go out and have affairs because of it. And in my case my husband claims he was looking up old friends and just happened to come across his old girlfriend in the process and called her up just to see what she was doing. But like you he was faced with temptation and was just plain weak and threw my love a side just like you did Linda. And like you, he says we had and still have a wonderful marriage. (God help me) he says he just got caught up in it all. He knew it was wrong and he knew how I would feel, but he sure didn’t do anything to stop it until he got caught. Come on an old girlfriend he hasn’t seen in 35 years REALLY!!!!! Who the hell is even the same person after 35 years. Shes a real winner being she is in a relationship of 15 years with a poor schmuck (who doesn’t deserve this either) has no clue that she was cheating behind his back with my husband. Tell me I’m wrong!! I’ve been married to this man since I was 19. How could he do this to us, to our lives. WHAT EVER!!!!!!!! I think I’ll take up drinking.

      • Doug

        nmwf1, Not sure what your asking but I completely agree with you. Even though things were not real great in our marriage at that time, we have had a wonderful history together and what I did doesn’t make sense, was wrong and I feel much guilt and will be forever remorseful. I know your angry and in pain right now and that’s understandable. I hope that your husband understands what he has done and will work his butt off to help you heal and rebuild your marriage. Best of luck to you!

        • nmwf1

          Hi Doug, Things don’t have to be great in a marriage all the time, THAT’S LIFE. If it were great all the time, we would all be Stepford wives. But everyone knows infidelity destroys marriages, everyone knows betraying the one you love is painful and damaging to your marriage, and yet people go through with it anyway. I want to know if you just never thought you would get caught; and what Linda don’t know won’t hurt her, or did you not care about your marriage anymore and didn’t care if it ended in divorce if Linda found out , or did you think’ if Linda finds out you would worry about it then, or did you just, let the chips fall and if it ended your marriage than so be it. Because you can’t have your cake and eat it to. I just want to know if your wife was even a factor at all. Just like I want to know If I was a factor at all for my husband. He has no answer, He always say’s I don’t know, I made a mistake.

          • Disappointed

            Nmwf1 – I can feel your pain and anguish. I feel the same way. I want to know why. Why I meant nothing, why over 17 years meant nothing, how he could forget me and not care that he ripped my heart out. But there will never be a good acceptable answer. The affair was not about me. It was his boredom, his disappointment in his life, his career, a classic mid life crisis. He ran toward an awakening, the hormones of infatuation, the forbidden, the secrecy, the adrenalin, the fantasy, the flattery. The OW was married with two kids and felt neglected and took advantage of comments I made to her about how I felt invisible. I had known her for 4 years. I am jealous of her for all the things he said while high on infatuation including that she was innocent. She is still with her husband and my life is a wreck. I am separated and looking for a new job to keep our house as I do not think he will recommit. Your husband does not have an acceptable reason. It was fun, exciting, new. It was nothing yet everything for how it made him feel. It was only about how it made him feel. Not even about her. That fact does not make it hurt less. It makes me feel empty and sad. But that is the only truth to be had. Try to take comfort in his remorse. I would give anything to see that remorse. I have gotten “I am sorry I hurt and betrayed you and you did not deserve it, but I am not sorry it happened. All you did was say no to me, what did you expect to happen?” The remorse shows that your husband is looking at himself and knows he is lacking. If you love him take him at his word and allow each other to heal. I wish you the best. I feel the hurt and immense pain in your posts. You are not alone. Please find solace in his pain, it means that the man you fell in love with is still there somewhere.

            • Rachel

              I get the same answers. I’m sorry. I know I hurt you. There is no remorse at all. Walks around the house like a peacock. Living his own life of freedom. Now saying our marriage was disfunctional? This new excuse will just justify his p brain that it was ok for the e/a. Oh and he’s still claiming it wasn’t an affair just looked up an old friend. And texted and emailed.because he feels it’s ok to go to lunches with women.
              He needs to be put on an island with all of the other cheaters.

    • E

      nmwf1, perhaps you can take some heart in that Doug wrote this post years after his EA and I think he answered a lot in the post. Maybe in time, your husband will think more clearly about the “why” and be able to answer you. But disappointed is right, you may never have an answer that gives you peace or closure. I believe this is where acceptance comes in. You are right, marriage is tough, we don’t always feel butterflies when they walk into a room right? That is real life. But chances are there was some kind of struggle going on with your husband, can you truly dig deep and think of nothing? I don’t believe that every couple can recover from an affair, for some it’s just not possible. But for others, it truly is possible. The fact that you are still there says a lot. Trying to understand may be keeping you from healing. Try to accept, try to forgive.

    • nmwf1

      Hi E, I do realize that Doug wrote this long after the affair, I do see that he is trying to make some since or reason why, however as you can see from the comment I wrote to (Recovering above) I don’t believe in affair fog, and I will never see a reason to cheat. When you marry the one you love; you promise to be true and faithful to them for the rest of your lives, but if you find yourself in a crossroad somewhere along the way, that you can no longer hold true to the promise that you maid on your wedding day, than why the hell would you put the person who loves you in so much pain. Why not spare the agony of an affair. Leave, separate, do something else, not shatter their lives with this kind of torture. I think I would have healed a little better, but lies,deceit, betrayal, secrets behind my back, all the while facing me, and acting like everything is normal, frankly makes me want to throw up. But when you love someone you don’t give up. But trying to heal is a torturous journey (although I will make it for all that its worth ) that has forever changed my life and my faith in marriage and the vows we made. I really don’t think I will ever go to another wedding without thinking what a bunch of crap the wedding vows are. ( I mean really does anyone really every hear what they are promising the other person or is it just something to say in front of everyone) To bad the vows that you cherished, can make a complete fool out of you one day when you least expect it. What a shame…….

    • Surviving

      I gave been where you are now it is horrible to know someone you loved and still love could cause you this pain….

      I came to a cross road where it was either I was going to continue being this horrible person I was turning into with emotions all over the place…and causing pain to my H with anger and hurt being released on him especially when I was starting to feel happiness.

      At some point as hard as it is you have to accept that your H did this and then decide if you want to stay in your marriage.

      • nmwf1

        Hi Surviving, How long did it take you to except it, cause it will be D day for me this 3rd of July, 12 months ago and I still can’t except it. I try to let it go. But it haunts me everyday. I don’t want to lose him, I know he does not want to lose me and yet I feel so betrayed and so stuck in this roller coaster ride of emotions and somehow I cannot break free. I hate hurting him because of my anger and resentment and yet my heart is in pain everyday and it some times make me physically ill. And its all because of his total lack of respect for me, and total disregard of our marriage and my love for him. He chose to do what he did, he chattered our lives with his selfish act. Now like Doug he is trying to put our life back together. The only thing is, is that I don’t want to be like Doug and Linda and make the rest of my life about an affair that he had and always trying to get past triggers and pain at every turn. I don’t want to have to talk about this sickening, pathetic part of my life that is so hurtful. How do you just tune out the most devastating event in your life. HOW DO YOU MEND A BROKEN HEART?

        • Recovering


          I also need to know the answer to this… we are just over a year out now… by 11 days… and even this morning I was thinking that it is just too much and maybe I should just leave… I am good at running away… and obviously he is too since he cheated… I know that I CAN’T forgive because I don’t understand… I CAN’T understand because I KNOW that I could NEVER do something like this to him… NEVER!! How he could have sex with it and then come home and crawl into bed with me… hell, he didn’t even shower!! What a bastard he was!! Some days he still is that bastard… others he is the man I deserve… My husband I guess is getting sick of trying so hard… some days he is so supportive and understanding, and then other days he is really just a jerk and tells me to just stop thinking about it. Well, I CAN’T! And had he THOUGHT about ANYTHING other than his penis and his ego, we wouldn’t be in this mess… (it all started in a bar… he knew her but had never thought of her that way before she came on to him, and next thing ya know he is trying to make it something else other than sick…). I guess it would be easier for me to move on and accept things and him had he had an emotional breakdown… maybe cried and said how sorry and STUPID he was (a trigger word for him – God forbid he do something stupid, yet what else was the affair but the dumbest damned thing he’s EVER done…)… I guess I expected him to beg for forgiveness…. to kiss my butt even if just a little… to get the flowers I haven’t gotten since my son was born 10 years ago… But he has NEVER even asked for forgiveness… said that he doesn’t deserve or expect me to forgive him for what he did… and there has never been an apology breakdown… like I could leave and he would make it my fault somehow. In fact, even after a year I think he still blames ME for the affair… he didn’t feel like I loved him is his excuse… well maybe I didn’t put HIM first, but HE didn’t put me first either, and I didn’t spread my legs for the first horney guy in the back seat of his car!! I guess I haven’t gotten the TRUE remorse that I need. He is still emotionally distant, and I guess I am at my end of feeling alone and like I need to just get over it… I can’t… I love him, but he destroyed me in every sense of the word. I am a different person, with hate in my heart now… I don’t trust myself… I lack the confidence I used to have… I just want to run away and be all alone…. yet I want him with me… I NEED that emotional connection that has been lacking for so long…. maybe he is just a penis and an ego… if so then I have wasted half of my life on this man and tortured my children by bringing them into this world of him… Do you ever NOT feel alone…. because I ALWAYS do now…

    • Greg

      NMWF1 and Recovering,
      If at a year out you both still have that much anger and hatred in you due to this it may be something you cannot get over. Leaving my be the only choice for both of you. I know that is not what you want to hear because both of you have said how much you still love your husbands but if what they did is still hurting you so much then it may be better to not be around them. You are not doing yourselves or them any favors by staying in a place where you are hurt by just being near them. I also am approaching my one year D-day, July 11, and if I still felt like you two seem to at this point I would not want to be around my wife anymore. I do realize that everyones situation is different but if staying is still causing that much pain, why put yourselves through it?
      I don’t know if either of you have done therapy or if your husbands have, if not I would highly recommend it to deal with the pain and anger for yourselves and if your husbands haven’t I would say almost say force them to just so that you can say that you have tried everything possible to fix the situation. If both you and they have gone to counseling and it isn’t getting better it is time to look at something else, seperation or divorce my be the answer even if it is not what you want.

      • Recovering

        You are probably right, but I guess in my situation it hasn’t TRULY been a year out in a way… let me explain…

        Right now I am hypersensitive… I AM VERY ANGRY. The OW left the company almost 3 months after I found out about them. My husband told her it was her or him. He looked for another job. She had already been interviewing for another job, which she got. Whew! A little less upheavel in my life and one less thing to deal with… and on we go to working on US… so then here it is.. 8.5 months later, and we find out that there may be a chance of the OW coming back to my husbands company because there is a position open that would be a promotion for the slut. My husband insists that she won’t come back. That he couldn’t believe she would do such a thing. I insist that she would. Selfish whore she has shown herself to be, I KNOW a little over a month ago that she will come back. I feel it in my bones. We try to brush it under the rug because there was no point in getting all worked up over something we weren’t sure would happen or not. Meanwhile, my husbands boss is looking to promote him in a BIG way (this would mean in-ground swimming pool for me big…). Husband told me as soon as he found out that she MIGHT be coming back so that I would know… no secrets, etc… I worried and fretted and stressed for a month. Last Wednesday I get the call that the company offered the slut the position, and that she will be returning to the company the first week of July. The only person I am aware of at the company that knows about the affair is the OW’s old boss – the bitch that brought the OW back to the company… I lose it. Get wasted, throw up, and then decide that the whore isn’t going to take more from me than she already has. My husband is angry… can’t believe the OW would come back. Think he is kinda angry that I have called every one of the whore’s moves since I found out about them, and that he was such an idiot to not see her for who she really is… and that I can even though I’ve never even met her… He is angry that he is having to give up his career… not angry at me, angry at her and at himself because he knows this is all his own fault. I told him not to leave the company, that I would be brave and not obsess and we shouldn’t let it affect our lives anymore… blah blah blah… am trying to be brave… he knows better… knows I can’t handle it working at the same place… knows I would probably literally go insane or die of a heart attack in weeks from the stress of it… He decided to leave the business unit. Is taking a job – a total lateral move… Good for US, just not good for his career or our financial future. The moving to the other job is taking longer than I would like. There is a HUGE chance there will be overlap between the time it comes back and the time before he leaves. I am mental. He doesn’t want to see it… but it is a whore and I am already guessing at what it will do… it will try to be ‘nice’ to my husband and screw with his brain again… Yes, at this point it is his job to tell her to screw off, and he says that he would… Knowing her audiactity just pisses me off…

        A month ago, before we found out about the possibility of the whore returning to the workplace, things were actually going REALLY well for us! WE were doing good. We were communicating, and being loving and I was starting to trust him again (which scares the baJesus out of me). I have been under so much stress from this whole thing that I almost feel like we are starting all over. He is getting frustrated with me because in reality he is doing what he should be doing, and I am all over the place on what we should be doing. I don’t this stupid whore to have an affect on our lives AT ALL, yet now our whole lives are changing, again, while it walks away scott free with a promotion and her marriage still in tact. I threatened to tell it’s husband about the affair… I can’t do it. I can’t invite them into my life… I want them OUT of my life… we ARE doing the right thing by leaving the company… I know this… but having to sacrifice again for something I didn’t do just chaps me – BAD. Karma is taking her sweet time killing the whore off in the single car car accident!! LOL!!

        So I DO love my husband, and things WERE going well… we hit a MAJOR road bump, so I have regressed. I am in a bad place now… my chest pains have returned, and I am not sleeping again… I have returned to a year ago… I know that once we get out of this company and away from the whore I will start to be able to breathe again… it all is just taking too long, and the stress is REALLY getting to me…

        Greg, I do appreciate you being candid and honest about your thoughts. Is one of the reasons I am on this site… and one of the others is to vent… I am hoping for the best. I love my husband, and for him to leave his job for US and my mental health… well, that isn’t something that he would’ve EVER done before, in the entire 16 years of our marriage. His work always came first, so to his credit it is a MAJOR step for him to put me first. I am just sooooo stressed………….

        • Greg

          Damn, she is coming back even after the threat of exposing her! I suspect that her husband knows and she spun it as your husband was pursuing her and you as a psyco wife that will tell him lies. Seems in form with her character. I hadn’t realized that she was coming back and understand the regression. The fact that your husband is doing the right thing even though it means a set back in his career is a very good thing and I retract my statements that you might need to leave. He is thinking of you and your marriage, your anger is not so much related to him but toward what she is doing to your family and marriage. That is understandable and not surprising given the situation. Even though it may not seem like it things still are going well for you in your marriage, because he is doing what needs to be done to keep you safe, i see that as full commitment to you. Yes things aren’t going so well in the job side but long term that is much easier to fix than the marriage and is less important as well.
          Maybe you should just FedEx her a handgrenade, that would really solve the issue.

          Just Kidding. 🙂

    • Surviving

      After the one year mark we went away for the weekend and it was the make or break point… We didn’t discuss the EA at all and my H said no matter how long it took or how much anger I showed he wasnt going to leave me, no matter what I decided to stay or leave I had to accept that he did this. I also read many postings on this site and even with leaving the pain doesn’t go away so I knew I had to accept what happened and then start to move towards forgiveness and rebuilding trust.
      It does get better.
      Once I accepted it the anger started to go away

    • nmwf1

      Hi Greg, One year is not enough time to heal such a devastating blow to a marriage of 33 years. I have been married to this man since I was a teenager, I have built my whole world around him. Separating at this point would be dumping salt in an already wounded pride. I never said I have hatred for him, I have disappointment and heartache because of what he did to us. i do love him with all my heart and I know he loves me with all of his heart. He is doing everything he can to help me through,He say’s he will do what ever it takes to win back all of my love and trust. But through it all I feel I have lost myself. I don’t know what to think, I want answers, I WANT TO KNOW WHY I WASN’T ENOUGH. I want to know how he could feel good about himself in an affair, knowing full well that this would destroy me. I want to know how he could face me and look me in the eye when all of this was going on.. I want to know how he could act so normal, all the while betraying me behind my back. Yes it has been a year, but some times it feels like yesterday to me. This pain is lasting and relentless , its strong, its gut wrenching, I want to know how to get rid of it. A year ago I was about 30lbs overweight, because of the stress i have lost 52lbs you do the math. . I have lost my self esteem, i have lost my joy for life. YES i AM DROWNING IN A SEA OF SELF PITY, but for the life of me I don’t know how to climb out. Your wife is lucky that you are so understanding and can overcome her infidelity, My husband is not so lucky, I am still angry, still hurt, still devastated, still reeling for answers. I fear I am a long ways from healing . I want back that self assured feeling, i want back that true unwavering just him and I feeling that was so absolute.

      • Paula

        nmwf1. I agree, there is no absolute timeline. I would offer that a year is early days. I do also think that men and women are very different. Often men don’t seem to need to pull it to bits, they don’t seem to have the same level of complete devastation that hangs around and hangs around. I truly don’t mean to upset the men here, I know this is a terrible generalisation, and many of you are every bit as damaged by this as many of the women are here, and vice versa. Of course there are many similarities in many of our stories, but everyone here, and every relationship has it’s subtle differences. Greg, I’m so pleased for you if you are feeling a lot better – well done. Many of us years out are still in a lot of pain, and still doing the work to get through this challenge. nmwf1, you really have it nailed. I hope you continue to progress, you sound like you have the same kind of good man who did a bad thing as my ex 🙂 He did, and continues to do “the work,” as yours does. Love him and let him love you, and together I hope you get to a better place

    • Greg

      Don’t worry Paula you won’t upset me. Yes men do tend to get over it faster, especially an EA, we’ve been raised that way. We’ve been taught to not look too deeply into our emotions and in my case I actually understand where the affair came from and that it was a symptom of others problems in our marriage.

      I do understand the need to know why, especially with such a long history together. The reason I wanted to bring up separating is two fold. First to get it out there so you could dismiss it if you truly don’t want to. Second because of the sentiment that I see in you last line of wanting the, ‘unwavering him and I feeling back.’ You will probably never get this back and to move forward you will have to accept that at some point or it will never work out. I don’t say this to be mean but to be honest. He has done something that is very damaging to your psyche and you will never be able to forget about it. This doesn’t mean you won’t be able to move forward from it but it will never be forgotten and will always be there in the back of your mind. Are you strong enough to move forward with this still being there in you memories for the rest of you years together? I don’t know the answer to that, only you do, and you are the one who as to make the decision about how to go forward with it. I just know that for me I decided that I had to accept what my wife did and have realized that I will never be as fully trusting of her again but do still want to be with her. I have made that choice to still be here even with that little voice popping up occasionally saying, what is she doing right now? It is probably somewhat easier for me for a few reasons, being male and the fact that we didn’t marry young being the two biggest. Can you make that decision to keep moving forward knowing it will never be what it was? I

    • E

      Nmwf1, holding on to our hurt and anger is a defense mechanism. It’s built in us. It’s natural and perfectly normal. It is our own way of self protection born out of the fear of getting hurt again. I thought I had the fairy tale. I met my husband when I was 14. Married him when I was 17. We will be married 25 yrs next yr. He is the only man I’ve ever loved, the only man I’ve ever been with. My fairy tale was shattered and there were times when I thought I just wanted to die. It can get better. I promise you. I am a firm believer that denial breeds depression and keeps you from moving forward. If you have not read it, pick up Elizabeth Edwards book – Resilience. The book was mostly about the death of their son and how she dealt with it. My heart truly hurts with you. Try to accept the past. It’s the only way to put it behind you.

      • nmwf1

        hi E, I wrote a while back to you, its at the bottom of this roll. I don’t know if you read it or not but it was my saga that i am still trying to overcome. I want someones opinion about contacting the other woman because I have an overwhelming urge to do just that. please help i am mixed up and need closer. what do you think?

        • E

          nmwf1, this was something I struggled with for a long time. It is a slippery slope!!! I did contact the OW a couple of times as a matter of fact. Nmwf1 – the ONLY contact I made that I can look back on and feel good about was the last one just a couple of months ago. I was not angry or hateful. I apologized for saying horrible things that I said to her in the past. I told her a few things that I wanted her to know. I said what I needed to say and in doing so I believe it helped me put an end to
          Her being a part of my thoughts much more often than she deserved. If your intention is to make contact to say all kinds of awful things etc, then I would urge you not to do so. My experience is that it will not have the results you desire. You will actually be letting OW know that she still has the upper hand.

          • Debbie

            E, I have done exactly what you explained in your last blog in the initial stages I was wanting to hurt her and ruin her. With time I realized that these feelings were only hurting me. I had to learn to forgive everyone in the scenario for me to heal. It is a good feeling when you can do this, it doesn’t stop the thoughts etc. but it makes you feel stronger and a better person. I am comfortable for my husband to go to meetings where I know the OW will be attending and feel a new found freedom because I have let go. I know my H doesn’t want to go there again he told me it was a nightmare the pain he caused everyone our friends family and children. I believe him, he is a good man who just got lost for a short while. I feel safe and although I will never forget what happened I accept it.

    • Gizfield

      Recovering, I know this is difficult but there is NO JOB worth your marriage, health, and sanity. I would report this whore and her boss to the appropriate persons or authority. You may not get what you deserve now but you will get it. so will she. If you have any proof of inappropriate workplace activity so much the better..

    • Gizfield

      Oh, I just noticed the photo at the top of this post. Tooooo creepy, lol.

    • nmwf1

      E, Thanks that is the first thing that I have read that makes since to me. I don’t want to be angry, I am tired and wherry, it (IS) a defense mechanism because I am afraid, I was always so sure of everything in my relationship with my husband. (so I thought) I have posted on other blogs that, My husband works out of town, we have an RV about 40 minutes from his job site,in another town, its aprox 5 hrs form our home. But every week either he comes home or I go there. i mostly go there because I can go on a Thurs and come home on Monday mornings when he goes off to the site. He has been working there for 3 + years. He runs the job and crews. To get to my point, We have often talked about how working away from home can be hard on a marriage, so we have always made it a point to make every weekend count and I am a wife who has never gone though life with blinders on, I was always very aware of the possibilities and temptations that are out there,and loneliness, so I have always been very aware of his needs both sexually and emotionally, and I have always made sure that I met those needs in every way, for that reason, but I trusted him so much and so strong. I never in my wildest dreams thought this would happen. He decided out of the blue, (so he says) to look up old friends and walla! one ( I think the only so called old friend he even looked up ) was an ex girlfriend of 35 years ago before he met me. She lives quite a few states away from ours however. From day one of his cell phone bill history with her, they camped on the phone everyday several times a day, and text messaged endlessly, He claims they never met up during those months of the EA ( I don’t know how to believe him about that because he is without me during the week) and she has strong ties to our state not far from where our home is. The 3rd of July last year my husband and I were here at the house watching a movie about 11 at night and he got a text message, I have never been suspicious of anything before, so this was new for me, for some reason it didn’t feel right so I bluffed him and asked him; was that your alarm, (trying to think fast he blew it ) he said no its and 800 number. I knew his phone did not ring so I knew it was not a phone call, it was a text message. So i played it off for a minute and watched him as he was fidgeting with his phone. (he never does that) then he said: do you want me to go let the dogs out of the back yard. (we live in the country and the dogs run the fields at night to keep other animals from the live stock ) I knew right then that he was going outside to read that text message . so I ran to my bedroom window, he had to pass it to get to the back yard. I could see him, but he could not see me. Sure enough he was standing there big as life outside my window reading a text message. OMG! I knew right then and there it had to be a woman. I said nothing to him because I wanted to investigate further, then he had to leave the next day 4th of july day cause he had to be back on the job on the 5th. the minute he left i went to work investigating his cell phone bill history, but it took me 4 days to figure out how to get into his account on line. we don’t get paper bills. (only on line and I have a different service than he does) i had to try several possible passwords (because I couldn’t ask him for it obviously) I just happened to crack it (go figure it was a miracle . And there it was hundred’s and hundreds of calls, thousands of text messages, hundreds of picture mail. So I anonymously called the number and sure enough a woman answered. I could not talk and just hung up and was absolutely DEVASTATED! But because he had just left on Monday the 4th I did not go down until the following week on Thurs.(which gave me time to investigate tons of things) That Thurs, I drove all afternoon so that I could get there right when he got off work. He does not work Fridays so I knew I would have the whole weekend to talk to him. .I was on the phone with him when he arrived at the RV after he got off work, I waited until he got inside before I drove up. He did not expect me until the next day. So he was surprised when I told him i was right outside. i walked in the RV he acted happy to see me, He hugged me and i didn’t hug him back, I looked at him with furry , sort of shaking he backed up and sat on the couch (I think he sensed what was coming) With that look on his face that say’s
      ( I’M F***ed) I pulled out this book sized phone bill and history log, and threw it at him. Then you guessed it all hell broke loose. I had the most out of control rage,melt down,rage,melt down, rage, emotional sex, rage melt down weekend of my life. We did not leave the RV for 4 days other than going out to lunch twice I think. I made him come clean because I told him that I contacted the phone company and signed and affidavit and paid to have the security send all the emails all the picture mail. to me, I told him if he so much as lies to me one time about what i would read or what I would see in those pictures when i got them that I would not be there when he got home. I found out that they sent naked pictures of each other back and forth, of course close ups shots of (lets say body parts) . He confessed to having phone sex with her on several occasions.,. ( i still don’t know If she ever physically came to our RV and seen him in person) I cant imagine him being that bold sense a lot of people know me at that RV park. he insists she never has. I do know they had sex back when he was going with her. But this EA went on for a couple of months before I found out. At times he would even be talking to her, and put her on hold to take my call, I would talk to him for a few minutes and then he would get back on the phone with her and camp on the phone for hours. How could he talk to me like normal all the while knowing he has his AP waiting on the other line. (talk about a sick feeling). And when I would come there for a weekend, Monday morning would come and I would kiss and hug him, tell him what a wonderful weekend we had and he would tell me the same and then he would walk out the door (according to the phone bills) he would call her immediately the minute he got in his truck and talk for about 15 minutes and hang up and call me to see if I was out the door yet to travel back home and tell me he loves me and then, hang up and call her back and talk to her for about 30 or so more minutes. (talk about sickening) And the fact that she was and old girlfriend adds insult to injury . I cannot believe this man that I thought I knew so well was even capable of doing something like this. It was so out of his character, but it has put such a strain on our marriage. I know he cut it off with her, the day I confronted him (so I believe, who the F knows,I’m not sure of anything at this point) but for the life of me i do not trust him anymore. How could he do this, we talked about it, what the hell was he thinking. Did he just think I would never find out? I want to know how long it would have went on had he not got caught . And if they never met up and physically had sex during this time, I want to know if it would have come to that eventually if i would not have found out. I fear i know the answer to that. I don’t know how him and her feel about each other. He will not tell me anything except he made a mistake, he says it wasn’t him, he don’t know who he was, Its a cop out, he made a conscious decision to contact her behind my back . he made the decision to continue the relationship knowing it would destroy me if I found out. And yet he was willing to take that risk for her. .I’m still so hurt. Forgiveness is hard, even though I want to forgive. but every time I start to feel happy and think I’m winning the battle a trigger will set me back ten fold, then the jealousy of the OW sets in, the jealousy of him and her set in , the pain grabs hold of my heart. and then the anger sets in, my emotions take hold and I lose control. I told another blog friend that I am on a emotional roller coaster ride from hell and i cannot get off. I am in the last car and I am hanging on for dear life. I am so lost!!! simply lost!!!

    • Debbie

      Hello Doug, I have read most of the comments on this page and my heart goes out to each and everyone. Can I say you sound just like my H. He is so sad that he has hurt me, is doing everything in his powere to ease my pain. Because of him the anger and pain are gone. I have accepted that the A happened. I believe my H was enjoying feeling good about himself it gave him confidence and was another world without the pressures of real life, in a sense it was make believe. The part that hurt me was the OW was in control like she knew he was a good man saw his vulnerability and played him. My H is high up in his job she was in a similar position as him but learning the ropes he was basically her teacher. This I believe was the relationship they had, teacher student type. After three years they stepped over the line the affair lasted three months. Initially I was devastated the night I found my husband texting her it was like a bomb exploded I went bolistic. I rang the OW who hung up on me. Not a good plan for her. So at 5am in the morning I showered made myself pretty and headed for her home 25 km away. I was met buy her husband at the back do and told him everything, she came dancing out the door next and asked me what she could do for me, I said you can stop sleeping with my husband and if you ever go anywhere near him even look at him I will have an intervention order taken out on you With that I I promptly left. Basically I fought for my husband like a tigress fights for her cubs. My H said he was humbled that I would do that it showed how much I loved him. I’m not saying this is the best thing to do but for our scenario it worked. From that day on my H and the OW have not had contact. I love my H and I know he loves me our life is better than ever because we work on it every day in a positive way.

      • Debbie

        One last comment, I believe confronting theOW as I did blew the fantasy away reality hit home for both my H and the OW. Basically I treated what they were doing as a ridiculous game exposed it for what it was childish and stupid. Unfortunately it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the person who uncovered it all. I just wished it wasn’t me who quashed the A I would have much preferred my H to have come to his senses before it came to this. I am grateful in the end that it was stopped regardless and all concerned can move on to better lives. I still think about the whys and what fors at times but as said before I don’t feel that emptiness and pain that I felt 18 months ago today.

      • Doug

        Debbie, Thanks for the comment. I’m glad for you that your husband has been working to help ease your pain and anger. You demonstrated quite a bit of bravery by confronting the other person like you did and it’s apparent that it worked in your situation.

        • nmwf1

          Hi Doug, Did Linda contact the other woman? I am very torn in my thoughts about doing this, it has been a year ago this month and that is all i think about. But not to explode on her about the affair but to get answers that she may or may not want to give and to find some kind of closure to it all. I know She has been in a relationship for over 15 years with a man, but they are not married but are still together. however I’m sure he never knew anything about the affair. I want to make her feel guilty for betraying that poor man, like my husband betrayed me. she was a part of it and she is going about her business pretty as you please. I have often wanted to tell him (her boyfriend) what she and my husband did behind his back. But I’m pretty sure he would be pretty devastated and I really wouldn’t want him to feel the pain that i have felt for the last year, That man did not deserve such betrayal and neither did I. What would be the point. I think she needs to think about it though. contacting her has suddenly became an obsession with me, its just one more piece of turmoil to haunt me on a daily basis. what do you think? Tell me where to turn and and how to heal. I love my husband, he is doing everything right. its me that simply cannot overcome what happened.

          • Doug

            Hi nmwf1, No Linda did not confront or contact the OW. I’m sure at times she wanted to but in the end she felt that it would do no good and would just give the OW more power over her. She did an interview with Dr. Huizenga a while back on the subject that you might want to listen to: https://www.emotionalaffair.org/lindas-interview-about-confrontation-after-the-emotional-affair/

            I understand your desire to contact her, and maybe that is what you should do in your case, but be sure you think through all of the pros and cons before you do. For instance, do you think it will really move you closer to healing or will it only create more questions and/or problems?

          • Linda

            I would also like to add if you are contacting the OW because you want closure or to make her feel guilty you may be barking up the wrong tree. I know in our situation the OW did not feel guilty for betraying her husband or for the devastation the affair caused our family. As you know there is a very selfish trait among cheaters. If you want closure you may get the opposite result, she may tell you things that may or may not be true but may end up hindering your recovery. I also obsessed about seeing the OW, I just wanted to meet her to see for myself what was so special. I really don’t think it would have been productive, it would have given more to obsess about.

    • KelBelly

      I contacted the other woman because I didn’t feel my husband was being truthful and I needed the whole story. I talked to her until I felt I had the whole story and I feel by doing so, I was able to get what I needed to move on. My husband worked a long with me with her and I was able to see what it was truly between them and I now feel less threatened believe it or not. I hope whatever you decide, that it works for you.

      • Recovering

        I contacted the OW immediately after I found out… guess really not “contacted” but left her 2 nasty vm at their workplace. Which she immediately responded to by running all upset to my husband wanting to know why I was calling HER!! Whatever… since then I have thought about contacting it on a fairly regular basis, until recently at least. After leaving the workplace for another position in August of 2011 (I found out in June 2011), it returned to my husband’s workplace just 2 weeks ago. It informed HR that it was concerned about there being ‘issues’ with my husband, who proceeded to call my husband into the office to discuss these “issues”, at which time my husband informed HR of what happened and that he was looking to leave the company SOLELY because it returned. My husband NEVER harrassed it! In fact, even avoided it completely after the affair was discovered by me!! I was the one who left it the 2 nasty vm, to which my husband supported me and told the OW that they deserved to be punished because what they did was wrong (his story and I believe him… now). He is the one who broke it off… At any rate, it returning to the workplace, and it whining about “issues” has just reinforced what I believed all along – that the OW is a lying, selfish, childish whore who believes she is entitled to do whatever she wants and owes nobody anything. I know NOW that contacting it would result in NOTHING but lies and pain for ME. It doesn’t feel a bit of guilt or remorse. It’s husband still doesn’t know, and it is happy living a lie. I have gone back and forth about telling her husband, and it angers me more than I can ever express that she gets to pretend that life is fine with her husband when he is oblivious, but I have decided that I am not the one to tell him. It has been more than a year now. My husband and I are getting stronger every day. I still have triggers (right now I have to drive past the whoretel on my way to my current assignment location for work) and most times my husband is supportive of me during these triggers. I am REALLY starting to believe that he is sorry and that he really believed the lies he was telling himself to be able to deal with the guilt while he was getting his ego trip somewhere else. I haven’t really believed it for most of the past year, but he is showing me who he WANTS to be now. I remind him that I didn’t like him during his cheating. I called him “mean” all the time while he was with her (though at the time I didn’t understand why he was so mean). He sees now that he was hateful and cruel to me, and for nothing that I actually did!! His cheating was HIS problem, and not mine. It still angers me that he could even have ANYTHING with a person like the OW, but he sees her in her real light now… he really must have been messed up in his head to even be able to have a conversation with it! Anyway, my point is is that your problem is really with the CHEATER and not the OW. Yes, if the OW hadn’t been a whore at the time too then there wouldn’t have been the opportunity to cheat, but the CHEATER didn’t have to cheat. Cheating is full of lies, and we each see things through our own filters, so no matter what the OW tells you, you’ll never really know what the whole story is. They cheated. HE lied to YOU. They BOTH were responsible for what happened equally, and yes, she should have considered that he was married or involved with someone else, but that is the nature of the cruelty. THEY didn’t care about you. She isn’t going to give you anything that can help you. Guilt from the OW is RARE! If she really felt bad, then the cheating would’ve ended after the first incident, or it wouldn’t have happened at all. Don’t waste your time on someone who obviously doesn’t care about YOU or your husband/significant other. Someone who is decent wouldn’t participate in cheating… You will get nothing but pain from her!! Believe me… I have had the same urge as you, but I beg you to squash it!! There is NO threat if your husband REALLY wants to be with you and REALLY wants to change!! YOU will ALWAYS be better and stronger than the OW – she is selfish, cruel, and doesn’t know how to love. Obviously if you are sticking it out then you are NONE of these things. It matters WHO YOU ARE! She is a NOBODY!! Chin up! YOU ARE WORTH MORE THAN THIS!

        • Linda T.

          I read your post and can really relate to it. I know your post was written a while back, but felt compelled to respond. I too met with the OW because I couldn’t get any answer’s from my CH. Even when I found receipts of weekends, I would ask him was their anything else I needed to know and he would lie to me and say, NO! Only for me to find out on two more D-days that the affair was for 2 more years, not the original one for lunch’s, then a weekend. It took 3 months to find that out. I only stayed with him in the beginning after 25 yrs. of marriage because I thought they only went to lunch together for a yr. I couldn’t have handled anything else, but I did wind up doing just that. Now 25 yrs. later I so wish that I had divorced him. He didn’t change much, wasn’t remorseful, drank just as much and wouldn’t tell me anything. So, I told him that I was sick of him lying, giving me bits and pieces and I was going to met with her. He didn’t discourage me, but I could tell he was nervous. I was surprised that she agreed to meet me. We talked in the car for about 90 minutes and sitting so close to her and looking her in the face was one of the hardest things I had to do. I started crying a little at one point and she reached over and put her hand on my leg in a kind gesture. I still don’t know why she met me and we did meet again about 8 months later. Also spoke on the phone numerous times, asking her questions as things were not adding up. But when I look back on it, my questions actually fed her the answers. All she had to do was answer yes or not. I think I did that because I didn’t want to hear the truth. Sometimes I wonder if they were talking to each other and getting their stories straight as I still feel it strange that she would meet with me? I copied down almost everything she said and somethings do conflict with each other. I received the letter telling me about the affair one year after it started, from her husband and that it had been going on for a yr. I called my CH and couldn’t reach him all day. He was suppose to be at a conference, but it was his first weekend with her after seeing each other for 7 months. So, all day I’m sitting their with this letter telling me, “Your husband is having an affair with my wife. Wake up, he is making a fool out of you.” My 14 yr. old daughter saw this letter also and I just kept calling him. I reached him around 6:30 that evening and he explained it so well. He told me that he had fired this person’s wife and her husband was trying to get even with him. He even offered to come home, but I told him I believed him and not to leave the conference. I hadn’t any sign’s as he was always home, still having sex, etc. Was drinking a little more, more irritable and impatient and I did have to do more things to get him interested in sex that I didn’t usually have to do. I didn’t know the signs of affairs 25 yrs. ago as I trusted my H with my life, he would never do that to me, he loved me to much, as I did him. High School sweetheart, loved him as much after 25 yrs. as the day I married him. Looking back on it now, I realize that I did all the giving, he did the taking, but I was to much in love to see it. So, I believed him, we went on with life and then 3 yrs. later I received another letter from her husband telling me that he was still playing me for a fool and had he been off anywhere lately without me? He also sent the explicit love letter’s my CH had sent her for her 3 birthdays. I found out that they had went off on 2 weekends together and then one at the end that might have only been for one night. This letter came and my same daughter got it and recognized the handwriting, called her older sister and went to her house. We were out on a business dinner, came home, daughter wasn’t there. I called my oldest daughter and she asked me to come over and by myself. I thought maybe my youngest daughter was pregnant. Husband went to bed and sleep. I went to my daughter’s, she was 3 months pregnant with twins and she told me, “Mom is this is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do..” I took the envelope, opened it and started reading the descriptive love letters, tried to hold it together to spare my pregnant daughter. That letter told me again, that my husband was having an affair with my husband and had he been gone anytime lately? I never could find a time that he had. My h told me that it had ended a yr. before that, but I find that hard to believe because he still wasn’t acting himself. I still feel that it was still going on. I still don’t know the truth. They slept in the same bed on two weekends, a yr. apart and he swears that they didn’t have sex as he couldn’t cross that line. I wish now that I had met with her H to ask him more questions and what proof did he have that they had went off on another weekend? What kind of person was she, they had two little girls, she worked at my H’s office, but not even in the same building with him. She flirted with him at a conference, he was 38 and like the new attention, even though he got it at home, more than enough. We had never dated anyone else, he had been drinking and another woman had never come onto him like she did. She knew what she was doing. I so regret so many things, not making him leave for a while as that would make him think what he had done, as he never showed remorse, just anger. He knew my feelings about affairs and how I would leave in a heartbeat if he did that to me. I thought our marriage was special and now 25 yrs. later we are struggling to hold it together. I’m sleeping in another room. Everything that he wouldn’t tell me back then has come back to haunt me. I don’t have the answers I need and he claims to not remember them. He is finally remorseful at 69 yrs. of age and that’s only been for the past yr. Now, I don’t know if I have any feelings left at all for him. I’m so upset that he did what he did for 3 or maybe even 4 yrs. and was able to do that to me. Maybe they didn’t have sex, I’ll never know and it’s killing me. I’m 69 yrs. old, have lost half of my hair and the only happiness I feel are my 7 grandchildren when I’m lucky enough to see them. I don’t want him to touch me, we live in the same house, me in another room and life just goes by. I’ve been to 5 counselors, both of us one and can’t seem to find the right one. We can’t use the one that we used in the beginning, at $175 an hour, she doesn’t take insurance now.
          Sorry this is so long, I was just needing to talk.I did want to address one thing that you questioned and couldn’t decide what to do. First, I’m glad that I saw the OW, but it’s a personal choice. Second, you asked if you should tell the OW’s husband doesn’t know about the affair and you are trying to decide wether to tell him. All I can tell you is this. I wish I had paid more attention and got in touch with the person that sent me that letter and went and saw him. Maybe that one yr. affair, wouldn’t have ended up being a 3 or 4 yr. one where they got more emotionally and possibly sexually involved. My H might not have felt the strong feelings for her at one yr. that he did at 3 or 4 yrs. Everyone at my H’s job or a lot of them knew about this affair, but me. So, I feel like a joke now. I wish someone had told me, I really do, even as painful as it would have been. A spouse needs to know these things so they aren’t blindsided like I was. We’ve been married 51 yrs. now and my life hasn’t been very good and now it’s harder to get out of it at my age. He’s given up drinking, trying harder, but just doesn’t want to talk about the A as he says he’s put it out of his mind and that we are 69 yrs. old and are wasting our life’s and should just move on. Hell, I don’t know if I even have any feelings left for him after all that he has put me through in my life.
          Well now that I have written my book (sorry) I hope something that I’ve said will help you get healed.
          Blessings, Linda T.

      • nmwf1

        thank you, i needed to hear something positive and that I was not just a lunatic. I have already made my decision and I have decided its the thing I have to do. you just made my decision a little less stressful. What ever outcome I get i guess I will have to live with it. I feel I need to know the truth and maybe she will tell me what I want to know. I hope my outcome is as good as yours was. A lot of opinions that i have read, suggest that if you don’t let them think you give them a second thought, such as ignoring them if you come across them in a public place or never contacting them, than the other person would think it does not bother you. (Really?) That is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever herd , Who would buy that for a minute. Of course they know it bothers you. Its human nature. And in my situation, I don’t care if she knows anyway. She SHOULD know how pathetic i think her and my husbands little affair was. She was pathetic and he was pathetic. Shame on both of them. I would rather let her know how deeply him and i still love each other and that she would never be the woman I am in his eyes, and that all she was to him was a temporary illusion in a weak mixed up moment in his life. And now in his eyes she is just a very bad mistake that he regrets and wish would never have happened. I also want her to know that she is lucky I have more class than to tell her boyfriend of 15 years what her and my husband did behind his back, because if i did she would just be a bad mistake for him to! Poor schmuck!!! At least he doesn’t know what a fool she made of him. Maybe its better that way. Infidelity hurts!!!!

        • Anita

          Linda is correct by contacting this other woman you are barking up the wrong tree.
          Forget her and put that effort into your marriage.
          Its your husband who needs to stay away from her. He
          cheated on you, and he hurt you. Your healing should be
          centered on why he cheated, not with whom, she could have been anybody. It was his responsibility to stay to
          remain faithful to you. this is where you need to focus that energy.

          • Anita

            By not contacting her, your taking the high road, therefore giving you the highest point. By contacting her your showing her your weakness. Instead put your head up and
            forget her. Also by contacting her your showing her that you don’t trust your husband to do the job of leaving her alone.
            It shows that you need to chase the other woman away from him, and its you doing the work of keeping him faithful.
            Its his job to remain faithful to you. Give him that chance to prove to you he can do it, if not than you know your answer.

    • Surviving

      So true everything you said.
      I debated contacting her but after no response from my H to her VM, Text messages and email to his personal account at the 18 month mark of NC she sent an email to his work stating to him not me that she was sorry, that she should have known he was 100 percent with HER that’s what she called me then asking for his forgiveness and how hard it was on her to not have their 20 plus year friendship….
      That email was answered by us with silence.
      So now I knew if I contacted her I would have heard her warped perception of the EA and her lies.
      If you want to know how OW are look at their sites I did and read exerpts online from Rielle Hunters book.
      They don’t care about us and the don’t care about our h they only care about themselves they are selfish and most show no remorse towards the spouse.

    • jewel

      I did contact the OW. the phone conversation was short and sweet. I asked her to stop contacting my husband so that we could give our marriage a chance. she replied with “anything I can do to help”. I was stunned! my reply to that was “REALLY??? REALLY???, ya, i think that would “help”.
      and that was that…she immediately blocked facebook etc (though I had done it from our end, i could tell she had too)
      I don’t know where she was coming from…thinking that she was supporting my husband in working on our marriage while at the same time telling him she was in love with him??? WTF? truly warped.
      I haven’t told my husband that i did this. Part of me wants it to be MINE. My last ditch cavewoman maneouver to save my marriage. Kinda like pissing to mark my territory. it made me feel good to assert myself in that way, it didn’t feel like I was giving her any power, just telling her that I was taking mine back. I do understand the immaturity of this and I have moved past it, but I don’t regret it for a second.

    • Gizfield

      Anita, I believe your intentions are good, and I don’t want to offend you but I find some of your comments to be overbearing. I get it that my husband was a cheater and that ideally, I guess, I MUST forgive him. The”experts” can’t really say what is best in these situations but you give a lot of advice on what people “should” do when on these situations. As an example, I DO have a problem with Other Women/Men. Their behavior is a scrounge on society, VERY harmful and should be adressed , that is MY OPINION only. Again, I have no problem with you but your comments on what people SHOULD do make me uncomfortable. Thanks.

      • Anita

        The other woman/man aren’t the problem. The problem
        lies within the marriage. Finding the reason behind the
        cheating is where the answer is. An affair is a coating
        (if you will) over a problem thats underneath it. Getting to
        that problem and solving it is more important than the
        other man/woman. There is nothing special about the
        other person, other than they have their problems which
        led them to be a partipant.
        The spouse who cheated is responsible for maintaining
        faithfulness within the marriage.
        I understand how you feel, at first I felt that way also, until
        I could accept that there were factors within the marriage,
        and my exhusband’s wrong choice to have an affair verses
        counceling and being honest with me, along with our lousey communication. It wasn’t one thing that lead to this
        it was many many unaddressed issues that caused the
        demise of our marriage. My exhusband’s affair partner
        was someone he turned to when he gave up on our marriage. I can say this with openess now, however at
        that time, I also wanted to blame the other person and
        him, the truth was I also had some blame. Of course an
        affair should have never happened, but it did. Forgiveness
        is healthy, because it releases all that poison, and also
        help me realize I wasn’t such a saint either.

        • Recovering

          I do believe that issues in the marriage can SOMETIMES lead to a person being more open to cheating, but really, the issue is with the person who cheats, REGARDLESS of what is going on in the marriage. I had NOTHING to do with my husband cheating. He had other choices, and chose the worst possible one. I am not saying our marriage was perfect, but whose is!! I was lonely too, yet I didn’t cheat. I DO feel morally superior to him in this regard… what he did was disgusting, and I know that I would have NEVER done such a thing!! He has learned, and is learning, that cheating NO MATTER WHAT is WRONG. Some people secretly believe that cheating can be justified… these are the ones that cheat. Ones who believe there is NEVER a justification for cheating don’t do it – don’t even get sucked into it because they don’t put themselves in situations that would allow it to happen, and they actually pay attention to that voice inside that says “this is wrong” instead of brushing it aside. You are right… there is absolutely NOTHING special about the OW – quite the contrary! I think this fact has caused me more torture than if it had been special!! To hurt me so bad for someone who is such a horrible person! And to sink sooo low when he knew better in the first place… I think THAT is what tortures me the most! That he took the worst road possible, the easiest for him to feel good about him, but the worst for us – especially since he says that he never wanted to lose me and always wanted to work things out with me. Well, that isn’t possible if there is a third wheel is it. Now that she is gone we can work on us, yet with more hurt than we could have ever had to deal with before… imagine if he had not been a huge coward and came to ME when he was feeling bad in the first place!! How happy we could be now instead of dealing with recovery!!

        • Fred

          I agree with the others here that your posts are not helpful. While the health of the marriage can lead to vulnerability towards having an affair, what is going on in the marriage and the affair are two separate things. There is no justification for the affair, that responsibility lies completely with the cheating spouse. And the OM/OW certain dies bear some responsibility also. They did not respect the marriage or the CS. But they are not your focus, your spouse is. Your spouse and the AP both had other choices, they chose cowardice and selfishness.

    • Anita

      By me going through my annulment process, and this site,
      I was able to see my past for what it really was. In this
      process I could see why we divorced. When we married
      it wasn’t done freely, we did it because of a pregnancy, we
      married when my exhusband was still a teenager. My
      exhusband always felt he missed out on his youth, of dating other women. This lead to many problems within
      our marriage, and him cheating. I was responsible for
      my behavior of sex before marriage that started this whole
      problem. Of course our children that came from this union
      made it all worth it. However I wasn’t the perfect wife either, I also had my flaws. However overtime I could see
      all this and it was very healing. Today my exhusband and
      I get along, he’s remarried to someone he met later after
      our divorce. We also forgave each other, also our children
      have forgiven us. Even our family members have put this
      all in the past. Also this former affair partner, there was
      no reason for me not to forgive her, she was only small
      part of a bigger problem. However this is past all of us

    • Gizfield

      Anita, my issue is not that your opinions and mine are different, because believe me they are, my problem is that you present your OPINION as FACT. I’m not influenced by that but I think there are a lot of fragile people on here who might be. You dont have any credentials to”guide”others except that your husband cheated and you divorced. Your last comment is an example. I need toforgive, the other person is not my problem, etc. pretty much anything I said is dismissed as wrong. That is NOT helpful. Maybe it is to other people, but it is not to me.

      • Anita

        I am sorry your hurting, infidelity hurts so much, and its
        painful when someone we love hurts us. I remember
        those raw emotions, of trying to grasp and make sense
        of it all.
        Gizfield, I have had the time to heal, forgive and reflect on
        my past. As far as forgiveness, I am a Christain, and God
        asks us to forgive others when they hurt us, so it doesn’t
        take root and make us bitter or resentful. For me its not
        a option not to forgive. However I am glad I did, because
        it has brought me happiness peace and joy! For me
        the Bible has final say, also its the oldest book still around
        even after 2000 years. Nothing compares!
        I wish you the very best, take care of yourself, my heart goes out to you.

    • Gizfield

      thank u, Anita! I can tell you are a Christian woman and that your faith is important to you, as is mine. I know from experience that forgiveness can come in the blink of an eye, when the time is right. Take care.

      • Anita

        At the time when I was going through all this, it felt like
        one of the worst things in the world. However I had to
        remember to be thankful for even the smallest things,
        such as running water, a roof over my head and ect…
        By doing that I could see that other people around the
        world had bigger problems with more heartache.
        My loss was my marriage, however I know lives that
        are lost through tornadoes where family members are
        killed and their homes are nothing but rubble, and yet
        their still praisining God for the small things, such as
        a picture that was spared.
        I guess as long as we have are health and can still breath,
        we have much more life to live and storms of life pass
        us by, until another one comes along.
        Gizfield take care and God Bless you!

    • Disappointed

      My H is really struggling and seems to be hitting rock bottom. Worried his mom is going to fund his escape from our life. She is visiting and he is playing up the poor me story. 46 yrs old and cant be a man. Says everything is over (meaning his career, our marriage, etc). I told him it doesnt have to be over. He has choices. And he continues to be a coward. He continues to wallow in self pity and see his EA as a beacon of happiness. Even tho he admitted it wasnt real and he doesnt really know her. Why do I still love him? Pathetic.

    • KelBelly

      Hello, I’d like to introduce myself, my name is Michael and I am KelBellys H, the CS…
      I’ve been reading posts on here for a while now and I believe its time to tell my story. To start, I’ll give you a brief background on me. I am a Combat Veteran that served in Iraq in 2004 and I suffer from PTSD. Needless to say, when I came home I wasn’t the same man that left his wife and kids the year before. When I got home I was already in a type of a “fog”‘ and as time passed the fog only became heavier. I harbored a lot of anger against myself and my wife and instead of talking to her about what I was feeling and kept it all bottled inside. Huge Mistake!! When I came home ,my wife wasn’t the same woman I had left either. She had come down with an illness that took 2 years to discover a diagnosis. By that time I had become frustrated by the weekly visits to the ER only for her to be sent home with a “Sorry, we don’t know whats wrong with you.” Even after we had found the cause I was so deep into my “fog” that I was drifting further from her everyday. At one point I tried to seek counseling for my “condition” but I was essentially turned down by the “professional” that i sought help from. That was when I took the stance that “I wasn’t the one one that was screwed up, it’s everyone else…” After a few more years of living in this fog I started to seek avenues of escape and they were online games and chat rooms. This really drove a huge wedge between my spouse and I as I found my games and chats to be more important than my own family. My wife and I had a huge argument in December where she had told me that she loved me but she was tired of the distance between us and she wasn’t going to put herself out there for me any more, at least that was the only part I heard…. At that moment, I made the decision that maybe my family was better off without me and I pushed my wife and kids further away thinking that the idea to “leave” would be hers to make it less painful for her in the long run. A few weeks later I found someone online that I “connected with” and I entered the “Affair Fog”. About a month went by and my wife came to me and said she wanted to start working on our marriage, meanwhile I spent my time talking with the OW. Another month went by and, for reasons that I still haven’t found all the answers to, my “fog” started to lift and I ended my EA with the OW. A week or 2 after that the OW sent me a message wishing me a Happy Birthday and my wife found it and confronted me about it and that’s where our world fell apart…. It’s been 8 months since D Day and we have made Huge progress in our relationship. I finally found a counselor that has helped me a great deal with my PTSD and anger issues and my wife and I are still together. We have had our ups and downs these past few months but we are weathering the storm!! I have never been much of a talker, it was not a big part of my upbringing, but I have found that sharing my joys, fears and worries with my wife are a good thing and I wish I had been doing it all along. Good communication is the key to a healthy relationship. I still have days that I have a hard time expressing my feelings or my troubles but they are fewer and further between, it’s a work in progress…
      Thank you for your time.

      • Doug

        Michael, Thanks for sharing your story. As Surviving said, the first post is always the hardest. Keep moving in the direction that you’re traveling and you and KelBelly will be just fine.

      • Patsy50

        Michael, first let me thank you for serving and protecting your country. I am one of the older girls here and been married for 41 yrs. and my husband had an emotional affair with a coworker. It’s been 2 yrs since D-Day for us and we are doing good. It is a very tough journey especially for the BS but one that can be conquered if both partners agree to work their hardest to get the relationship back on track. I think communication is a must. I know we didn’t always have good communication amongst us and is one of the reasons for husbands EA. I wish you the best in your journey. It might be a hard road, but one well worth traveling together.

    • Surviving

      Thank you for sharing your story, the first posting is always the hardest. Has all contact ended with you and the OW? You sound like you are taking responsibility for your actions and that’s a huge step not all other CS do that.

    • KelBelly

      Thank you Surviving. Yes, I have ended all contact with the OW. Starting to write was the hard part, once I got started it seemed it get easier. And yes, I accept full responsibility for my actions.

    • Surviving

      I keep asking my h why didn’t you just leave? If this is what you were feeing and doing why couldn’t you have just said I don’t want to be married anymore, to keep up the double life and the lies, why? Maybe you have an answer from a CS point of view or maybe not.
      I’m over two years DDay and were much better, I still wonder was the thrill really worth the pain I’m suffering because of it, he’s says he didn’t think he would have caused all this pain in me, he thought I would just be mad. To my H credit he has never waivered and threatened to leave when I have had many emotional breakdowns…

      Kelbelly it’s great your husband came on here I wish mine would even if it was to read some postings.

    • KelBelly

      That’s a really good question, one that Kel & I have discussed at length to find an answer to. Here was my answer: I felt it would have been easier on her if it were her decision to leave me. When in reality, we were both waiting for the other to walk out the door. Thankfully, neither of us left and we were able to work through the chaos.

      • Bob

        I have been in an affair for over 3 years. Iam the cheater and still undiscovered. All these posts are great and its hard to believe my actions. Its not a Fog its an addiction for sure. My affair partner is addicted as well. Its not so easy to stop believe me….

        • Teresa

          So Bob, is your addiction worth more than the pain you have read on these posts??
          When your wife finds out, and she will, one day…karma has a way of catching up with you….you think your wife is going to care when you say it was just an “addiction”?
          An affair is the most selfish thing one spouse can do to the other spouse!
          The pain goes deep, wrapping its tenticles around the heart and soul of the betrayed spouse…and it changes them forever.
          The fact that you’re here, posting, says that you know you’re doing wrong, and possibly seeking a way out….so do it. TODAY!

        • nmw1

          To Bob, posted on dec 6 2012, If you get this I just want to say, addiction or not, you had a choice in the beginning, you were not addicted at that cross road, never the less I just hope you realize that if and when your affair gets discovered by your wife, her world will be shattered and life as you know it will change forever. you will destroy the beautiful person your wife probably is and just know that your little fix you get from your so called addiction , won’t seem do wonderful anymore when it hurts someone so deep that did not deserve it.

    • KelBelly

      Surviving, I think Mike coming here has helped him a few ways. The first seeing that he is not the worst person in the world as there are others having the same troubles and it has helped him to see just how painful his actions have been and how deep they cut. I think it also has helped him by reading the stories of other betrayed spouse so he can learn what is needed to heal our relationship.

    • Strengthrequired

      Doug, I just wanted to say ithat it was refreshing to read this. I can only hope and pray that my h, becomes as open and transparent as you are now with Linda. You should be so proud of yourself.
      I actually believe that it is a experience on both sides the cs and bs, that we either grow and better ourselves and learn from our mistakes or we go opposite and just never learn. Just repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
      I actually found the courage to read your words to my h last night in the hopes that he can see that isn’t alone in how he feels and what he has done, and that just maybe it will open his eyes up to being transparent with me, willing to talk to me whenever I need to about his ea, without fear of him getting angry and upset at me.
      I am hoping that he could feel better, knowing these words he has heard me read was from another man that has been through what he has and made it through the other side a stronger and more caring person towards his wife, and that we too can make it through to the other side in a better place.
      One thing is I didn’t get, a bad reaction. He listened, then he asked where I get all these things I read to him, lol. I told him off the Internet hehehe. I told him a little about your story and about how I really felt a connection with Linda in how her reactions to the ea, were strikingly similar to mine, and it made me feel somewhat normal, and not alone.
      I told him that hoped him hearing your words Doug, would show him that he isn’t alone with how he has handled his ea, which tbh is also so very similar to his.
      Thank you again.

      • Doug

        Strength, Thanks for the kind words. I’m glad this post was of some benefit to you. Perhaps I’m misinterpreting some of your comments, but it seems as though your husband has at least acknowledged that he screwed up completely. Hopefully, that acknowledgment will lead him to do some soul searching and result in real change.

    • Strengthrequired

      Doug, my h knows where he wants to be, I know he has had a hard time stopping all contact with the ow, unless it as an excuse to je, but he was hoping to let her feelings drop for him, so he wouldn’t feel bad about hurting her.
      He tells me he has stopped the contact, since a month ago, I found he was still talking and msg her several times a day, calling her babe, and god knows what else. I am trying to believe it, but you know after living with this for 14mths it’s hard to believe it, after he kept lying time and Tim again.
      Sometimes I would tell him, just go and be with her and let me go, as I just can’t handle this, but he would hold onto me tighter.
      I guess I’m hoping that him hearing words from someone that has gone through what he has, would help him in some way or smother. I know my h feels guilty, yet at times I think he is placing his feelings of guilt in favor of the ow.
      I would love to see the light at the end of this long dark tunnel, and at times I do, at times I see my h shining. It is a process and I do believe my h and I will get through this, it would however be nicer if it was sooner rather than later though.
      I really do relate to Linda, it is one roller coaster ride I wish I didn’t get on, your emotions are all over the place, the anxiety and panic attacks are shocking, the weightloss, the sleepless nights, the feelings of feeling worthless, and your whole marriage was based on a lie. Horrible, absolutely horrible to know that some woman can waltz right in and turn your life upside down and make your h think you are the worse person on the planet and in such a short time, hav him believe he doesn’t love you, ( which is like a stab in the heart when you hea those words coming from the man you have loved a lifetime) and her having him believe you never loved him, and how I never deserved him.
      Yet I keep hanging in, because, I love him, we have a family, and I will admit, you and Linda came into my life not that long ago, ith your blog, and it has given me more strength to keep going. So thank you.

    • Strengthrequired

      I have been thinking, if a cs has an ea, not a physical affair and they are so “in love” with the ow/om, they are willing tom risk their families for this other person, then Why did it not turn into a pa?
      Is it because they are not sure if the other person is worth that next step. Is it they are worried about their appearance?
      I wonder because I know at least one of them would have been trying.
      I’m just trying to understand.

    • Surviving


      Who knows for sure why, my CS didn’t think what he was doing was cheating because it wasn’t physical, and when she wanted more from him he broke it off, so he didn’t think it was worth it to be with her.

      • Strengthrequired

        Surviving, thanks for your reply. I just think, they do all this kissing and flirting, yet dtd. Maybe it is the guilt associated with actually dtd, that they just can’t go there. Yet I wonder how on earth you can be so in love with someone, kiss them etc, and turn them down each time by being completely intimate with them.
        I often wonder if I was so inlove with someone and they apparently loved me but kept turning me on by kissing,saying sweet nothings to me, yet kept stopping once it was getting to the point where I wanted to dtd with them, then I would be wondering why? Inwould be thinking this person doesn’t really want me, so why am I here. I would be definitely thinking that I’m not then person he wants if he can’t make love to me.
        Maybe I’m just looking to deep into it.
        I’m trying ti understand the ap as well, when they kept getting turned down, why do they think it will change? Especially when the cs is still with the bs, of course they know they are still intimate with the bs. So don’t they feel crappy for making the moves on the cs and they keep getting turned down.
        Just a thought I’m trying to process. Lol

    • Strengthrequired

      If I was the affair partner I would be feeling used, and wonder why on earth am I still with this person who clearly doesn’t want all of me.

    • Brenn

      I know this is an old post, but i am going through this… I discovered the EA in december (he was in Iraq all that time) and didn’t say a word, it was confessed voluntarily in march, although he ended it later than that -for all the ‘research’ i’ve done i believe around july. She contacted him a month ago and they met “to make things clear”, then she wanted to see him again and he refused. He does not know i know all those things. He came back from deployment, which means we’re about to live together again… The problem is that we have so many things to work on that i haven’t talked about that subject at all, in fact one time he said he was very sorry (through skype) and i said to leave it in the past! Now that i see him i want to throw all the dishes to his face and other times i want him to kiss me and hold me and make me feel secure… But then he plays around and avoids kissing me, holds my hand if i hold his first and then lets go as soon as he finds something to do… I don’t know if we should be living together… I sometimes think that he misses her and that’s why he avoids me… But the other day i said that if he’s not ready then we shouldn’t live together and he said he wants to make it work and he wants to be with me and we have to work… I don’t know how to react to those things because just remember this brings so many feelings i can’t deal with… Also we have two children and have no time to talk… I sometimes feel like he isn’t worth my time and my love, that we talks bullshit and why to talk when he won’t do? Then i love him again and want to spend the rest of my life with him… Then i think i should just forget about it and be happy… I don’t have any idea of how to deal with it…

      • Brenn

        Oh and this was P&EA.

    • Cristina

      My husband and I have been dealing with a P&EA since October of 2014. It was just an EA up until October. The AP was once a very close friend of mine. From the beginning he has maintained all sorts of things, When he first came home and declared “I love you, but I am not in love with you anymore” my heart shattered but I knew in my gut he was lying to himself and to me, when he came clean about the affair and whom it was with I broke down but then a feeling of calm washed over me, and I knew it wasn’t going to last long, when he came home and told me that he was “in love” with her my heart shattered even more but then I also knew what he feels for her isn’t real.
      As of now we still live together, he is moving out soon to gain perspective on what he wants. He told me the other night while at dinner that a part of him wants a divorce due to him being unhappy for so long, and the other part doesn’t because he still loves and cares for me, that he and her have made some futurish type plans that were nothing serious like kids, marriage, or moving in together. That he gets the feeling from her sometimes that she will either make it something or they will peter out. He then went on to say that he has been thinking that of when he moves out cutting contact with the both of us so he can really have time to contemplate and to think. This is not the first time he has mentioned this, I have agreed with him that we both need space to grow and heal. That I know what I want and that’s to save us, but he needs to figure out if he wants that too.
      I have made changes, and strides while he is still within the home and he has told me he sees them. He has also said he feels knee jerked because he is still there which makes it hard for him to decide… OKAY… He has not done any reading and I have done tons and tons of research, hours upon hours of webinars trying to understand why men cheat, why women become the other woman, our discussions have been made better by advice I read, or have received from coaches, family, and the like.
      I am terrified of him moving out, because now I have to trust he will be serious and not contact her at all. I have a hard time with this, because initially she broke it off so that we could have a fair shot at counseling… two days later she is calling him saying she misses him, this shows me that she can’t even respect her own decisions. I know her well enough to know that when she is no longer in the dark about this and how he has begun to feel (he hasn’t told her, they have a texting/ meet up 2x a week relationship, which I read word for word) she isn’t going to take it lightly and she will initiate contact, that’s really all it takes for the communication barriers to reopen, when she does this it will show she has no respect for him and his wishes as a man trying to figure his life out. I know I have to adhere to it, because it will show I am the bigger person, that I am stronger than what he believes I am.
      I am just worried he will make a huge mistake…. She is a 33 year old single mom with 2 kids 11-12, she has no job, no money of her own, she lives with her mother, lives off FAFSA money from school when she gets it, her parents equally pay all her bills, she is a FT nursing student, and has no sense of class. He has told me he has considered all of this, that he has even told her he doesn’t want to be a father figure to her children, nor does he ever want to get remarried “if” things between us do not work out, that he and I will be friends and she has to be okay with that, and that he wants to take things day by day… she responded with I do not expect you to be any figure to my children, I am okay with not getting married, if you and your wife want to be friends more power to you, and I am okay with day by day…. right!!!!
      She has already started in with the ” Can I trust you’s?” “are you going to break my hearts” and so on… she does not want us to be friends she has said and done things via social media, to him, and to others in hopes of ripping the fragile seams we are hanging on.
      What she doesn’t know is this, we are still intimate, we still exercise together, we still cook dinner together, cuddle, watch our shows, go out to eat, hang out, laugh, joke around, we go to movies, we go and hang with our mutual friends we have shared for 12 years, his family does not accept her, they still view me as family regardless of what happens with us, so she is an idiot to think the ladder, and an even bigger idiot for thinking she can break the solid connections of understanding, and knowing my husband and I still have, he does not deny we still have connections that are stronger than any he has ever felt or known and it has been that way since we met 12 years ago. He claims the only thing missing is the emotional connection we once had. He maintains he has no idea what will happen with us outside of our marriage if we divorce, or even with her that has not changed since day one of this.
      I believe in us, I am positive about us, and I am sure of us. We have withstood more things that now seem so trivial compared to this. I do not believe she was brought in to our lives to rescue him, he has not said anything about her being his true love, his destined soul mate, I refuse to believe she was brought into the picture for that reason. She was and is the one test of our relationship, the dangled forbidden fruit he took a bite of, once reality hits if he chooses that path it will haunt him. I am worried however for where this may be going… I do not want a divorce, I do however want my life back and a new foundation to be laid… any advice on after the communication rule is lifted how to mention without becoming desperate or sounding desperate that I am still vested????

    • Jan

      My H and I are three months into his EA with a co-worker.( after I found out!) He did break all ties with this woman 2 months ago, but she don’t want to let things go. We have been married 41 years, and up until about 2 years ago, never had infidelity crash into our marriage! I know all to well the roller coaster ride of emotions, talked about here. One minute I love him, the next, I hate him! One minute, I want him to leave and never come back, the next minute I don’t want him out of my sight! I have had the awful dreams to the point of not wanting to sleep, and have physically been sick, and have lost 26 pounds in the last 3 months. It is the most horrible thing, I have ever been through in my life! All my respect, love, and trust, for this man, for 40 years, was erased in a short 5 month period, that he worked with this, disgusting woman. Everything was completely hid from me, until 3 months ago, when I found out on my own. Total devastation!! I couldn’t believe what I was reading in their FB messages! I can’t even remember what happen the rest of that evening after, I confronted him about her! It is all a horrible blur! I feel like I will never be in control of my feelings and emotions again. I wonder how long I will go through all this chaos, and pain before it starts to subside. I feel now 3 months later, just like I did the day I found out! Does this kind of pain ever end? Don’t know I am going through with the divorce this time, or not. I have already forgiven him once, 2 years ago,( not near this bad.) and he promised he would never do this again. Well he did, and this time it was even worse than the last time! He wants to save the marriage, and says he does love me! I don’t believe him! How can he love me, and rip my heart out like this, and hurt me so badly? In my mind that just isn’t possible.

    • Fred

      Hi. Great post. So succinct and so dead on. Just one suggestion, could you check your spelling and correct it? The word “conscience” especially is spelled “conscious” a couple of times in your article and it threw me at first.

    • theresa

      HI Doug and Linda, Happy New Year!
      (This is not the best time for an uncomfortable topic, so feel free to wait for a while before reading the questions.)

      I was surfing when I hit on this. The answer is probably in here somewhere. But without you mining for it, can you remember if these questions are in here.

      Why did the affair continue after discovery?
      What precautions did you take to continue to hide it?
      How was this handled between you and Tanya?
      Can you remember how it felt to look Linda in the eye and continue to deceive her?

      • Doug

        Hi Theresa and Happy New Year to you as well!

        I think I could write a chapter for most all of your questions but instead I will try to answer as short and sweet as possible.
        1. We basically had two D-days. One in I think September when Linda discovered numerous texts on my phone and the second was in early January I believe, when she got a good look at the cell phone bill and the extent of the communication between Tanya and I and my confession that indeed an EA was going on. After the first D-day, to be quite honest, I wanted to continue the EA as I was in that foggy state of mind and wanted the good feelings to continue. Linda really didn’t know for sure that I was in an EA at that time. I lied my ass off to deflect suspicion. After the second D-day, the affair ended a few weeks later. I know it was dumb on my part to take so long after that discovery but the whole thing was a process – which I regret.
        2. The only real precautions taken to hide it was to make sure texts were deleted. Most all of our communication (when not at work) was more by phone at that point – not text. I kept my phone by my side constantly.
        3. I’m not sure what you mean by how was it handled by me and Tanya other than to assume you mean how we went about being secretive, etc. Basically we talked on the phone several times a day during the week pretty regularly, talked at the office, had lunch together about every day and tried to be diligent in our texts deletions.
        4. I do remember how it felt and it causes me much guilt and regret to this day. But at the time (my old selfish, foggy, asshole self) I was able to compartmentalize things pretty well and though it would make me feel like shit when I deceived her, those shitty feelings were offset by the ego stroking and such that was experienced when with Tanya.

        I hope that answers your questions.

    • Myrna

      Thank you for your honesty. Your transparency was very helpful. At least I know I’m not crazy. Sometimes I feel like I’m losing my mind. Reading these messages is helpful. At least I know I’m not crazy. Sometimes I feel like I’m losing my mind.

      I don’t like the person I am becoming. I am approximately 3mos post DDay – and still reeling. Some days I can hardly breathe. We will be married 40 years this coming December – and an affair was something I “knew” would never happen to us. It completely blindsided and devastated me. I am stuck between immense grief and rage.

      My husband’s affair was emotional, but it lasted 18months. The OW was an old flame who lived 2500 miles away – otherwise, I feel he would have met up with her. I discovered it by finding emails and Facebook messages saved on an external harddrive. I was searching for a slideshow I had made of our son’s wedding when I discovered it. Lucky me.

      She sought him out on FB and it went from friendship, to “what if,” to “love,” in only a few months. It even progressed to sexual pictures and a video – which I discovered while trying to get to the truth about the length and depth of it. Initially, he said it was only a few months, but when confronted with the truth (and desiring reconciliation) he sat down and wrote me a timeline and divulged all of it. He is very remorseful – and has given me access (and passwords) to his email , phone, and FB account. Honestly, it feels kind of like closing the barn door after the cows are out…but I still want/need transparency in order to rebuild trust. If that’s even possible.

      The affair lasted from March of 2009 to September of 2010. I saw texts from times he was with me – and finding ways to tell her he would call soon because he missed her. Others where he’s texting her telling her I’m asleep – and he just wanted her to know he loves her. Initially, when I found out, he said it was a long time ago – but he doesn’t say that anymore. He knows that for me, it was new. It’s still new. Here’s another kicker, he stayed facebook friends with her until I discovered it this past January. He actually asked if I wanted him to “unfriend” her. Really?

      We had been going through a lot at that time. We had lost our business of 15years, had gone through our 401Ks, and were about to lose our home. He was feeling like a failure. He tells me it was an “escape” – and I believe him. The thing is, I was going through the same thing he was going through – and I never sought comfort from anyone but him. I am beyond heartbroken.

      I never pursued a career – I was a wife, helpmate, and mother…and now a Nana. I never regretted that until now. I was happy with my life. My kids adore me, my grandchildren adore me…and he says (that even then) he adored me. I know the failure was his, so why do I feel like my life is a colossal failure? I know he was hurting then, but so was I. One huge slap in the face was that – even as he was telling another woman he loved her – he was telling me that as long as we had onto each other, we would be okay. The duality is more than my heart can stand. It doesn’t help to know SHE was the one who ended it. In all that time, he never felt enough love for me – or guilt from his own actions – to end it.

      Another thing that crushes me is that he hid it from me for all these years. After the affair ended, he walked seamlessly back into my life as if it never happened. The truth is, I feel like all these years (since the affair) are tainted. There was an elephant in the room and I didn’t even know it. He reminds me often that the affair was so long ago, he doesn’t know what he was feeling or thinking back then…only that she provided an escape from the losses we had faced. All this time, he allowed me to believe our relationship had come through the fire of all our losses – stronger than ever. To know that he “needed” her changes all that. I see everything (from that time) through the lens of his affair – and I know nothing was as I thought it was. He says he thought he had dealt with the magnitude of what he had done – he dealt with the guilt and put it behind him. But the fact that he was never honest…and encouraged me to see “us” as having landed on our feet after life had knocked us down – tells me he suppressed it. He never dealt with anything until he was forced to.

      We had so many mutual friends who admired our marriage – admitted they envied it. I can’t help thinking about how cards from our married children have always included “thank yous” for the “example” our marriage has been to them. All our years together, and we still held hands and had long talks and easy conversation. My husband was my dearest and best friend – but how can a best friend do what he did – and stay there for 18months with no conscience? How could he allow himself to fall in love with someone else, let alone get into our bed every night, hold me and profess his undying love and devotion? He even spoke with me at our church (while he was doing this) about how to stay in love and keep your marriage strong. How could he do that knowing he was systematically destroying the marriage we had built? I cannot fathom the level of deceit he was capable of pulling off – with little or no remorse – until he was caught. Is he sorry for what he did, or that he got caught? I think probably a little of both, but what does it matter anyway? The destruction is complete and I see no healing in sight. I feel like part of me has died.

      Our counselor assures us we can come through this stronger than we ever were, but I don’t believe that. I know I will never feel as safe with him as I did – even when he was doing this. He was my “safe” place – my refuge when life was falling apart around us. I believed that, why wouldn’t I? He always said what a blessing our marriage was. I had no reason to doubt him – and every reason to lean into those things with all my heart. I can hardly look at him without wanting to cry.

      If anyone has any suggestions as to how a 58 year old woman can survive, let alone, get through this, I’m open to suggestions. I don’t like the person I am becoming. I am approximately 3mos post DDay – and still reeling. Some days I can hardly breathe. We will be married 40 years this coming December – and an affair was something I “knew” would never happen to us. It completely blindsided and devastated me. I am stuck between immense grief and rage.

      My husband’s affair was emotional, but it lasted 18months. The OW was an old flame who lived 2500 miles away – otherwise, I feel he would have met up with her. I discovered it by finding emails and Facebook messages saved on an external harddrive. I was searching for a slideshow I had made of our son’s wedding when I discovered it. Lucky me.

      She sought him out on FB and it went from friendship, to “what if,” to “love,” in only a few months. It even progressed to sexual pictures and a video – which I discovered while trying to get to the truth about the length and depth of it. Initially, he said it was only a few months, but when confronted with the truth (and desiring reconciliation) he sat down and wrote me a timeline and divulged all of it. He is very remorseful – and has given me access (and passwords) to his email , phone, and FB account. Honestly, it feels kind of like closing the barn door after the cows are out…but I still want/need transparency in order to rebuild trust. If that’s even possible.

      The affair lasted from March of 2009 to September of 2010. I saw texts from times he was with me – and finding ways to tell her he would call soon because he missed her. Others where he’s texting her telling her I’m asleep – and he just wanted her to know he loves her. Initially, when I found out, he said it was a long time ago – but he doesn’t say that anymore. He knows that for me, it was new. It’s still new. Here’s another kicker, he stayed facebook friends with her until I discovered it this past January. He actually asked if I wanted him to “unfriend” her. Really?

      We had been going through a lot at that time. We had lost our business of 15years, had gone through our 401Ks, and were about to lose our home. He was feeling like a failure. He tells me it was an “escape” – and I believe him. The thing is, I was going through the same thing he was going through – and I never sought comfort from anyone but him. I am beyond heartbroken.

      I never pursued a career – I was a wife, helpmate, and mother…and now a Nana. I never regretted that until now. I was happy with my life. My kids adore me, my grandchildren adore me…and he says (that even then) he adored me. I know the failure was his, so why do I feel like my life is a colossal failure? I know he was hurting then, but so was I. One huge slap in the face was that – even as he was telling another woman he loved her – he was telling me that as long as we had onto each other, we would be okay. The duality is more than my heart can stand. It doesn’t help to know SHE was the one who ended it. In all that time, he never felt enough love for me – or guilt from his own actions – to end it.

      Another thing that crushes me is that he hid it from me for all these years. After the affair ended, he walked seamlessly back into my life as if it never happened. The truth is, I feel like all these years (since the affair) are tainted. There was an elephant in the room and I didn’t even know it. He reminds me often that the affair was so long ago, he doesn’t know what he was feeling or thinking back then…only that she provided an escape from the losses we had faced. All this time, he allowed me to believe our relationship had come through the fire of all our losses – stronger than ever. To know that he “needed” her changes all that. I see everything (from that time) through the lens of his affair – and I know nothing was as I thought it was. He says he thought he had dealt with the magnitude of what he had done – he dealt with the guilt and put it behind him. But the fact that he was never honest…and encouraged me to see “us” as having landed on our feet after life had knocked us down – tells me he suppressed it. He never dealt with anything until he was forced to.

      We had so many mutual friends who admired our marriage – admitted they envied it. I can’t help thinking about how cards from our married children have always included “thank yous” for the “example” our marriage has been to them. All our years together, and we still held hands and had long talks and easy conversation. My husband was my dearest and best friend – but how can a best friend do what he did – and stay there for 18months with no conscience? How could he allow himself to fall in love with someone else, let alone get into our bed every night, hold me and profess his undying love and devotion? He even spoke with me at our church (while he was doing this) about how to stay in love and keep your marriage strong. How could he do that knowing he was systematically destroying the marriage we had built? I cannot fathom the level of deceit he was capable of pulling off – with little or no remorse – until he was caught. Is he sorry for what he did, or that he got caught? I think probably a little of both, but what does it matter anyway? The destruction is complete and I see no healing in sight. I feel like part of me has died.

      Our counselor assures us we can come through this stronger than we ever were, but I don’t believe that. I know I will never feel as safe with him as I did – even when he was doing this. He was my “safe” place – my refuge when life was falling apart around us. I believed that, why wouldn’t I? He always said what a blessing our marriage was. I had no reason to doubt him – and every reason to lean into those things with all my heart. I can hardly look at him without wanting to cry.

      If anyone has any suggestions as to how a 58 year old woman can survive, let alone, get through this, I’m open to suggestions.

    • Sasha

      I really appreciate your honest take on your emotional affair. My husband had an emotional affair and it rocked my world. I struggled with depression after I found out about it. but I found some guidance. I had a ton of issues and started to follow the advice of Dr. Robi Ludwig. I saw her on a tv show once and I really appreciated her take on current psychological issues. She has written two books but my favorite book is Your Best Age is Now. I have read it and loved it! I highly recommend it to anyone out there struggling with dealing with midlife and any issues when you reach an older age. I got hit hard during my 40’s and this book really helped me to become better and my husband and I survived his infidelity.

    • Vanessa

      “I was a hypocrite and totally ignored my own conscious.”
      “My conscious was telling me the way out but I was too stupid to take it.”

      conscious = CONSCIENCE

      an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one’s behavior.

      Sorry I couldn’t just correct it silently in my mind…

      • Doug

        Thanks for pointing that out Vanessa. And thanks for being nice about it too!

    • Theresa

      If your husband can’t admit that he had and EA and he can’t talk to you about it, how can you ever be happy with him as his #2 person?

      I have found MY worth and I’m worth so much more than being 2nd place in my husbands life to another woman.

      How do you stay with him if he can’t even own his actions? How do you ever feel #1 in his life again?

    • Theresa

      Doug, I don’t understand how a husband can truly love his wife but have such strong feelings and latch onto another woman at the same time.
      I can’t believe that the entire time of the EA while taking in all of the attention from the OW, that any of the words to your wife are true. (I love you, I want you, I want us) How can a man say that to his wife and mean it while getting his emotional needs met by another woman?

      • Doug

        Hi Theresa, Oddly enough, a person can love his/her spouse and still do something that hurts them, that causes such trauma. Typically, the CS is not thinking about their spouse as they selfishly are just thinking about themselves in that moment and how the other person and their interaction is making them feel. The CS can compartmentalize things to a point where they can act and do things as they normally would with their spouse, while maintaining an affair with someone else.

        • antiskank

          Good question, Theresa. It’s a question that bothers me too.

          My H tells me that he has “always” loved me. I have asked how that is possible given the horrific things he said to me after I found out his dirty little secret. At that time, I was told he had never loved me, and that was just the beginning. Everything about me was torn apart in the most painful ways possible. He admits this is not something you would do to someone you love so it just doesn’t add up.

          After the initial shock wore off a little, for the first 2 1/2 years after d Day, we (well I) tried to get past it and rebuild. We spent a lot of time doing fun things together, hugged lots, and had great sex. He declared over and over that he loved me right up untilt he day that he once again declared that he felt nothing for me, that he wanted her still. He admitted to lying about loving me duriong that time. Now we are back to his claims of loving me always. I think it is part of the game, does it make sense to anyone?

    • Lisa

      I have tried and tried understanding my husband’s affair and why it happened so I can decide what to do moving forward. I really try to understand the whole feeling and emotional side of it. The feeling of being new, exciting and having someone gush all over you. But that’s not reality. New jobs are exciting too but then gets to be work. Buying a new house it fun and it’s new but after 10 years, the newness wears off. A baby is cute and lovable but then become teenagers and it becomes a job. So why do we continue to let ourselves believe that just because something is exciting and makes us feel good all the time, that it’s ok. If our marriage was in the “not new and exciting stage anymore” why did I not have an affair too. In my mind, I know that life isn’t always going to be just full of highs, joys, happiest of happy moments, etc. Just because my husband wasn’t surprising me with flowers, or listening to my every need, or helping with the children because he was busy providing a comfortable life for us, does not mean that I need to justify that with getting involved with another man. I look for the good that is still in my life and all the positives that my husband still was during those times when things maybe aren’t going as great as they could be. Find a positive instead of trying to justify doing something that you know if wrong and going to hurt and disappoint so many people. That’s what people who have make bad choices do. They either don’t know it’s wrong (which is not the case) or make reason to justify it (and justifying an affair is making their spouse out to be the one not meeting their own needs) These are character flaws in my mind. I think that’s what I struggle with moving forward. When life is all good, it’s easy to be faithful or do the right thing. It’s when life gets challenging is when someone’s true character comes out. I’m getting older and want to know that my husband isn’t going to “escape” and “run” the next time things aren’t perfect in our life, and I know we are going to have more of that. Why do you think that typically only one person in the “stagnant” marriage is having an affair?

    • M

      Hi Doug,
      I appreciate your honesty here. The steps you took to attempt to build trust is what I want from my husband. It’s been 5 months and we got hit with a cancer diagnosis for him that we’ve been going through 2 months after d-day. Whenever I bring it up he has no words, no attempts to help me heal or even to build trust. I try to let him know when things cause me to feel unsafe like when I look over and he is angling his phone away from me or closes his screen quickly. He keeps saying he doesn’t know what he can do. I’ve tried sending him resources to help us but he just reads them and moves on. He keeps acting like we would be okay if I would just let it go but I can’t, I’m hurt and I don’t feel like I can trust him.
      What do I do if he says he wants to do better but never actually tries.

      • Doug

        I’m really sorry you’re going through all this—it’s a lot with the betrayal and now the cancer diagnosis on top of it. It sounds incredibly tough.

        When your husband says he’s lost about what to do, it might genuinely be because he’s overwhelmed or confused, especially with everything that’s going on health-wise. But it’s crucial he understands that rebuilding trust isn’t just about intentions; it’s about actions.

        Maybe try pointing out specific, small things he can do that would reassure you. Things like not hiding his phone screen or sharing passwords might seem minor, but they show he’s willing to be open and build back that trust.

        It could also help to set up some regular times to chat about how you’re both doing. Not just the big scary “we need to talk” sessions, but regular check-ins where you can both be honest about what you need and how you’re feeling without any pressure.

        Since he seems stuck on how to move forward, seeing a couples therapist might really help. They can show him how to take those steps towards rebuilding trust and help both of you sort through all these intense emotions.

        And don’t forget to look out for yourself too. This is super hard, and you also need support from friends, family, or maybe a personal therapist. Make sure you have folks you can lean on.

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