A conversation with my brother-in-law’s affair partner – now wife.

spoiled womanBy Doug

The other day I had a brief but interesting conversation with my sister-in-law regarding her relationship with her adult step children.

In case you’re wondering, yes this is my brother-in-law’s wife (initially his affair partner), and the step kids I’m referring to are our nieces and nephew.

It’s an extremely rare occasion that I’m ever left alone for more than a minute or two with my sister-in-law (Let’s call her “Kate”).  Usually, she and my brother-in-law (Let’s call him “William”) are attached at the hip whenever they are in town, and she typically follows him around like a little puppy whenever he moves about.

Anyways, on this day we all were gathered at Linda’s parent’s house for dinner and William had to run an errand for my mother-in-law.  Linda was inside helping her mother, and her dad was talking with our daughters who were in the pool.  So it was just me and Kate sitting there chatting (a situation that no doubt makes Linda a bit nervous as I have no problems asking questions).

There have been some family changes recently, which I won’t get into, that have created opportunities for Kate to come in contact with our nieces and nephew.  In fact, with one of our nieces and nephew, it was the first time that they have ever met in person, even though Kate and William have been married for about two years now.

So there we were sitting at a table outside under an umbrella on a hot summer day.  As we talked, I found an opening to start my interrogation…

My first logical question was “So how did it go when you met “Lori” and “Mike”?

Her answer…”Not so good.”

“Oh yeah, why is that?”

To paraphrase, her response was something like… “Because they both really hate me and don’t want anything to do with me.”

Apparently Lori (never one to mince words) told Kate that she didn’t like her, wasn’t interested in having any type of relationship with her and that she was only being tolerant of Kate because she was married to her father.

Mike chose to go another route and refused to talk to her much at all; giving her the icy cold shoulder treatment during a recent two-day visit.

My response to her, “Well, you really can’t blame them at this point based on all that’s happened.”

Discussion – Should You Tell Your Adult Children About the Affair?

She didn’t like that too well.

She kind of got snippy and said, (again to paraphrase) “I don’t know what you mean, I’ve tried to talk to them and be extra nice to them…” “I even bought Lori some furniture and took Mike shopping for some clothes.” (An obvious attempt to buy their acceptance/friendship with William’s credit card.)

I said, “That may be so, but in their eyes you are the person who broke up their family and caused their parents to divorce.  On top of that Lori was the one who had to take care of her mother as she stayed in bed, depressed and suicidal.”

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She replied, “I know but that’s been over two years ago and they need to just get over it.”

After that statement came out of her mouth, I was very thankful that Linda was not sitting there with us.  I have a feeling I would have had to peel Linda off of Kate as she tried to gouge her eyeballs and pull her hair out.

I retorted, “That’s easier said than done.  It’s going to take a very long time for them to get over it – if at all.”

Her response… “Well at least it’s a good thing that I don’t have to see them that often!”  And she chuckled.


Unfortunately our conversation had to end at that point as my father-in-law left the poolside and joined us at the table.

I sat there and thought to myself that this chick really doesn’t have a clue!

Later that night I filled Linda in on our little convo, which made her see six shades of red.  I thought her head was going to explode.   She couldn’t believe that Kate had the nerve to suggest that the kids “just get over it.”

But then again, what did we expect, right? 

This woman has displayed over and over that the only person she cares about is herself and that she would pretty much do whatever it takes to get what she wants – good or bad.

Anyways, I was kind of bummed that my conversation had to be interrupted and I’ve been contemplating what additional questions I should ask her next time I get the chance.

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Any suggestions??


    62 replies to "A Conversation with Kate"

    • TheFirstWife

      Hi Doug. Thank you for this blog as it has saved my sanity. Many times. Glad to see my H was exhibiting some “typical” behavior during his affair. It is hard to watch your spouse unravel in front of your eyes and there is nothing you can do (as his wife) to stop it.

      On to your present situation. I will try to keep this brief as I am so mad as I write. My H’s OW was very willing to be Kate. Knew he was married. Willing to accept my H had a wife & family (I saw those words in writing). She was looking to step into my place and take over as step mom. Didn’t think there was anything wrong there. And my H (during his affair) was working towards that same goal. Replacing me with the OW (a 29yo covered in tattoos, drama queen type with major issues – which is why she latched on to my H in the first place). He treated her nicely.

      Ok so now you can identify with some simarities between your family situation and what was almost my family situation.

      Here is what I would say to Kate as the BS. Yes I don’t want you around my children as you exemplify what is wrong with so many people in this world. You have no concept of right from wrong. You destroyed a family by being a cheater. You knew it was wrong to pursue a married man but yet you did it anyway. Your behavior shows your happiness is the most important thing.

      Not very good qualities for a parent by the way.

      So good to know my children have a better moral compass and know right from wrong. Clearly something is missing in your life for you to say the things you do. Please know my children are glad they do not have to see you very often. It works both ways here.

      Please stick very close to your man. Because he just may turn around and repeat this pattern when he grows tired of you. And maybe then you will realize all that you have done to me and my children and how your selfishness destroyed a family.

      You must sleep with one eye open. After all how do you know someone is not out there waiting to replace you?

      I would love to know how Kate can be in a relationship with a knownisr and cheater. See we BS end up in that situation by accident. Kate ended up in that type of relationship by choice.

      I would LOVE to know he she justifies the cheating and affair to herself.

      When my H ended his affair, the OW was suicidal and blogged all of her unhappiness and despair. They had a deep and special connection. (Really. I call it the infatuation stage of a new relationship). In any event she tried for a third time to start up again. This time my H ignored her attempts and showed me her emails. Her blog then became her outlet to get back at me. I was standing in her way of true love and happiness.

      So dear Kate one day I expect you will be on this blog when it comes back to you. It could be a PA or an EA or both. Whatever it is you will be inducted I to this lite group and feel our raw pain. And you will know your life will never be the same.

      Remember keep looking over your shoulder. She is out there just waiting to take your man.

      Your parents must be so proud of your choices. I am in my 50s and I know my parents would kick my butt (all the way from a different state) if any of my siblings or I caused the break up of a family.

      • TheFirstWife

        Should say inducted into this elite group. Darn autocorrect

    • Alice

      Doug and Linda, it may be helpful to you to google “narcissistic people” and read about common traits and actions. I think both Kate and your brother in law fit the definition. They aren’t just selfish, their brains are wired not to be able to feel compassion or empathy. Nor are they capable of really feeling love either. They are only connected to people that can make them look good in someway – like showing off a fancy coat. Almost as if to say “everyone look at me, I’ve got a hot wife!” Or “everyone look at me, my husband has money!”

      Especially look at the traits of narcissistic fathers and I’ll bet you get a better understanding of why he treats his own children like shit in favour of his trophy wife.

    • Exercise grace

      I would probably ask her if it is worth it. Is their relationship worth the loss of William’s relationship with his kids? And if the answer is “yes” at this present time, what is she going to do if (and likely when) he wakes up one day and decides it is NOT worth it? I would ask her if she worries about that. If she loses sleep wondering if he will ever leave her for someone his kids could love and accept into their lives. I would ask her how she handles the guilt (knowing full well, of course that she likely has none) of being half of the reason so many lives were torn apart and continue to be.

    • Alice

      EG I think that’s a valuable question if William was a normal father but I’m willing to bet he really doesn’t love his children – not properly. He will only “love” them when they can do something for him, the rest of the time they’ll live in the gutter. Kate probably figured that out a long time ago and knows his kids will never be a threat to her. If she thought they were any kind of threat she would be causing drama to manipulate the situation to gain advantage but she’s not – she’s totally apathetic

      • Strengthrequired

        Eg, when that happens, some ow comes into the children’s lives that are more acceptable to them, than the home wrecker, step mother. I hope she gets told to just get over it, and move on.
        I’m hoping doug, that your bil wakes up and sees that she is not worth losing his children over. These ow are never worth that. Honestly, what else did we expect to come out of her, definitely not remorse.

      • Strengthrequired

        Alice, I do believe Linda’s brother loves his children, yet I believe he sees them as grown up, where they don’t need him as much. i do believe one day,, he will realise it one day, just how much time he lost with his children because of her.
        I can also imagine the arguments that Kate has had with William over the children, about how they treat her. She will make it all about how she tries so hard to be close to them, and they just don’t respect her. Eventually he will grow tired, and his eyes will open.
        Don’t forget it’s almost time the honeymoon stage comes to an end, if it hasn’t already. I bet each argument that they have behind closed doors, she will be worried, is he going to leave her sorry ass.

        • Doug

          I think you’ve nailed it SR.

          • Strengthrequired

            Doug, no father that loves his children will accept some woman even if his new wife, belittle his children all the time. He will eventually choose his children, there is no competition for hm and his children, but for the new wife, she is still in competition mode. First the first wife, the. His children. If she could keep him away from his children she would. Why do you think it has taken so long for your bil to become more involved with the family again? It’s all because of her.

            • Strengthrequired

              Plus the bubble was a nice place to live for a while. Well that’s just my opinion anyway.

        • TryingHard

          People embolden themselves with their own sense of right and wrong but how can this man turn his back on his own children? I’m sure he rationalizes it all with th money he keeps shoveling out to them and they will take it. Sounds like the kids are not nearly as materialistic as good old Dad. Good for them. I think they will be just fine as long as they distance themselves from him. I only hope Kate is yammering away at him making his life a misery

          • Strengthrequired

            I think trying, that he is trying to get his children to like his new home wrecker of a wife, so he feels, see all worked out just fine. See my children see in her what I see in her, now they can understand why I luvvvv her, why I chose her over their mother. Unfortunately he is in la la land on his own, I do think that once he gets rid of the dead weight standing between him and his children, it isn’t going to help him get closer to them again.
            We know ourselves just how much the ow in our husbands lives wanted to keep our husbands to themselves, and it was hard getting them to wake up, this man married his ow, you can only imagine the hold she still has on him. It is hard to fathom that he was able to turn his back on his children, it is sad, but in some way I think he is trying, but she will always standing in between them, somehow.
            I was actually amazed when Doug mentioned that William went out on his own, without Kate, that hip attachment is starting to detach.

    • Joey

      Hey Doug – Great post!

      I think throughout all of this, my main take away is really trying to be empathetic for what other’s are feeling. It was really difficult for me at first to want to hear what my ex fiancé was trying to convey to me about where her mind was at when she started and continued her affair. But when I took a step back and really tried to put myself in her shoes, I felt compassion and empathy for her and decided to work together to reconcile. As we all know, it didn’t work out in the end and after too many false reconciliations, I had to walk. But I don’t regret trying because I now don’t hold so much anger for her but instead still have compassion for her struggles and hope she can mend what is broken.

      I think if you ever had the chance again to have a one-on-one conversation with Kate, maybe you could just ask her or maybe tell her to put herself in the shoes of your nieces and nephew just once and see where they are coming from. I think deep down she knows that the her husband’s kids have every right to be angry and frustrated with the situation, especially since it sounds like the both of them have handled it horribly.

    • TryingHard

      Kate’s about as deep as a thimble. She doesn’t get it she never will. I think subs your conversation with her hopefully proved to you how narcissistic, self centered and egotistical AP are. I’m sure your AP would have had the same attitude. My husbands as well.

      It’s sick. I only feel for the kids. They are innocent victims of their awful father. I hope they are using him for every dime they can get out of him. It would serve him right. What a couple of useless human beings.

      • Strengthrequired

        If they don’t th, she will, and they will end up with nothing.

        • TryingHard

          Indeed SR!!! Karma always finds its way. Always

    • Strengthrequired

      Ohh and th, my husbands ow will never get it either. Maybe not even when it happens to her

    • TryingHard

      I would bet William is either a car salesman or insurance guy. Just wondering.

      • TheFirstWife

        Haha both slimy types. I get it. Lol

      • Doug

        Far from it TH. He’s an executive VP, Director of Marketing for a large Fortune 500 Corporation. From a business perspective, he’s very professional and intelligent – and wealthy.

        • TheFirstWife

          Which is why Kate is with him. Status, money all the finer things in life.

          Which is why when men hit 40s and 50s they are a “catch” to younger women.

          Kate would most likely never have given him a chance if he was the same looking guy with the same personality but was an average, lower middle class guy.

          When my H and I met in college we had nothing. We are self made and we both worked hard to get where we are. My H OW was blinded into believing she was going to live very comfortably. We are not rich but my H earns a nice living.

          if we divorced there is not much left after alimony and child support and college tuition. Not much of a catch thrn, is he?

          • Doug

            Exactly, she knew what bars to hang out in and snagged her sugar daddy! Before him, she really didn’t have a pot to piss in.

        • TryingHard

          LOL he just has the heart of a used car salesman:).

          I worked corporate for a while. I saw lots of cold hearted egotistical bastards at work and flirting with the then called secretaries. They were awful. Seemingly having it all but lacking a soul.

          Sadly many do end up with their portfolio and an insipid trophy wife. Those are the guys when they die no one remembers them. A very sad existence I’d say.

          • Doug

            You know, prior to this whole situation, he would do anything for his kids – and did. Probably too much in fact and I think he started to resent it because in many respects they took advantage of him and relied on his monetary support a little too much – even in adulthood. Now he has a spoiled little wife who keeps looking younger every time I see her somehow (especially in the lips and boobs). 😉

            • TryingHard

              I bet you may know quite a few fathers like that Doug. They spend so much time working and supporting the family. The mother does all the heavy lifting at home making it way too comfortable for good old over worked Dad because, and after all it’s pretty easy when you have a financially cush life, he “needs to stay focused”, he’s “tired”, etc and the beat goes on. So what happens is he doesn’t develop a real relationship over time with his kids and his only value is what he can do for them financially. It’s sad and I personally know many people like this. LOL even my own H. I pandered wayyy too much to him and made his parenting part way to easy.

              Yep like many men of his generation financial support was the most important part in their idea of parenting and we wives facilitated that. One of my biggest regrets, but I truly didn’t know any better and believed I was doing the right thing. Well if the only relationship he had with his kids was with money the relationship was tenuous at best. Now he has his new project to throw money at, Barbie Doll Kate. It’s a sad existence.

              His children are adults now. They should be supporting themselves but if Daddy is silly enough to keep shoveling the cash well why or who would say no? They have a right now to choose with whom and whom not to have a relationship and that includes their father.

    • Alice

      Doug, I’m not sure if you’ve mentioned if Kate is significantly younger? Is she about the same age as his kids?

      • Doug

        He is about 58 and I think she is 44. The kids are 32, 30, & 27 (approximately) The closest kid lives 8 hours away so the family rarely sees each other.

        • Strengthrequired

          So now I am trying to understand why she had to take the son shopping for clothes? She definitely found her sugar daddy, new boobs and lips. Barbie dol indeed.

    • Gizfield

      He he, just about time for Kate to start showing her she and getting really desperate. I love it.

    • Gizfield

      Oops, sorry. Her age, not she.

    • TheFirstWife

      This is the nightmare every woman faces as we age. I am lucky in that I am still slim and look good for my age. Can I compete with a 30 year old? No way. Would never even try.

      This is our society now. Fake and plastic and lots of “help” to stay young. No morals either. I will get what I want with no regards to morals or right or wrong. I wonder where our society went down the wrong path.

      As for Kate and her “man”. He is a male, not a man. If he was unhappy in his marriage there were things he could have done instead of cheating. If he was just unhappy well I cannot believe finding a younger wife is the answer.

      This is what I say to my H all the time. You were unhappy for 12-18 months before the affair. Well news to me. I saw no sign. What did you do about it? Nothing but find a girlfriend to make you feel better and happy. Did it work? According to him, not much at all.

      And of course the OW was feeding into it. She will make him happy. He deserves to be happy. Until the day he wakes up and realized what a huge mistake he made leaving his wife & kids. By then it is too late (at least in my book).

      So dear Kate I hope you do not plan on gaining weight, getting ill, suffering depression, having to take care of family members who are ill, losing friends and relatives to illness/death. I hope you have no financial problems. Because when life throws a curve ball at you and/or something affects your marriage, you may not have your guy sticking around to help you out or stand by you. It is always easy whenife is easy. True partners stick together in good times & bad OR they work things out in a mature way. They do not cheat and have affairs and throw away their family.

      Kate right now you are family. See how easy they were tossed aside the first time. Hope it does not happen to you. Wouldn’t be surprised if it did however.

    • TheFirstWife

      BTW my therapist is very quick to point out that most men do not communicate to their spouse and do not willingly go to therapy either.

      This describes my H to a tee. Very unhappy in his life about 2 years ago. Projected as my fault (he now admits that was wrong and after my H described our marriage to our therapist, the therapist stated it sounded so good he would marry me).

      In any event my point is my H CHOSE to cheat. He CHOSE to find someone else.

      For years I would tell my H that if he ever found someone better or he just wanted out then he should come to me and admit it. Don’t cheat. It only makes things worse. Plain & simple.

      He chose to cheat. It is like self medicating. Job stinks? Blame your wife and cheat. Kids are difficult? Blame yoyr wife and cheat. And on and on.

      • Tabs


        You have a great therapist! Wish mine were that good.

        My CH has NEVER acknowledged why he cheated. But, he did point out the conditions he faced at home. First being, he thought for sure I was having an affair. I work with my CH. When did I ever have time to have an affair? Second, he said I went “wonky” when my mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. The doctor gave her 18 months to live. I wasn’t home a lot because I chose to spend time with my mother. Again, when did I ever have time to have an affair? So you’re right FirstWife, my CH CHOOSE to cheat. He was self medicating his ego. I wasn’t home for him. I didn’t go skiing with him. He was (and probably still is) a self centered and arrogant guy. My H used to be a psych major in college and prides himself on understanding human behavior. He needs to look in the mirror.

        • TheFirstWife

          I am so sorry that at the worst time of your life your H chose to cheat. Not support you and your family at a difficult time. But cheat.

          Your circumstances are exactly what my therapist stated. Men do not want to admit things are wrong. They don’t want to admit they have problems or are unhappy.

          Every one of my friends told me the same thing about my H. Ask him. Personal question and he makes a joke, avoids answering, deflects and changes the subject. So true! Never talks about himself. Ever.

          And look where that got him. Wrapped up in an affair. The funny thing is the OW claimed they had this deep connection. Give it six months and I guarantee she would have been right where I was. No deep conversation just superficial day to day stuff. Leopards don’t change their spots.

          My therapist also told me that the guys who really want to stay will do everything possible to win us BS’ back. And then they will start to revert back to their old comfortable ways.

          So true. My H is better than before in terms of talking, but I definitely see where he has slacked off a bit. He twisted himself I go a pretzel to get me to stay in 2013. But in 2015 I do see some regression. At least I expected it and was not surprised by it. Thanks to my therapist.

          I wish there was some way to get them to see how their choices and actions have devastating effects on the BS.

          Maybe the affair was your husband’s way of dealing with your mom’s illness. Not looking to make an excuse but have you asked him?

          I asked my H last week why he wants to stay with me. He answered all the usual stuff. I then asked him if I am so wonderful, why have you gone outside our marriage 3x (grad school girl for 24 months and twice with his last OW). What are you not getting for me that you have to go and cheat and get the ego boost? Clearly I am not all that for you to do this 3x.

          As you can see while we are still together I am not under any illusions here. Oh and now he wants to go for counseling. Last two times he quit after 3 sessions

    • Shifting Impressions

      I have often wondered what my husband’s AP was after? She knew me as well and looking back…..I really wonder. Stuff like giving little gifts to our little grandchildren through my husband etc. Makes me ill now. She has no children of her own and thus no grandchildren either. She is approximately the same age as my husband and myself.

      I did go and see her after d-day. I asked her if she had anything she wanted to say. I was sort of hoping for an apology. The message I left her with was “This is MY FAMILY” and no one touches my family. She was particularly taken with one of my adorable little granddaughters. Still bothers me.

      It was important to me that my adult children know who the affair partner was…..should she ever try to insert herself into our lives again.

      It floors me to think that someone can break up a family and then think they might reap the benefits of that same family. I don’t think my husband really gets how sick that was…..I mean she was just interested in the kids, right????

      I mean who leaves flowers on someone’s kitchen counter, welcoming them home while they are having an EA with their husband. When I asked about that….she says she was just being nice etc. That’s the kind of nice I can do without. In my world that’s just SICK!!!!

      Brave of you to ask those questions, Doug.

      I still don’t believe my husband understands how intrusive those “nice gestures” were. I guess a lot of us have lots of questions we would love anwered.

      • TheFirstWife

        That is one bunny boiler psycho nut job you had to deal with.

        Your H just doesn’t see what’s wrong and how she crossed the line.

        I was in the same position as you in the late 90s. My H had an EA (before they were called that – back then they were called “friends”) with grad school girl. Two years of her inappropriate behavior. From the moment I met her I told him she was interested in him. Watch your back. Be careful.

        End result was I finally stopped all contact. But she was my friend (or pretending to be for 18 of the 24 months they had contact 4 nights a week in grad school). She actually called me to ask me if my H could go with her to a mutual friend’s wedding. I will never ever forget the look on my H face when I handed him the phone and told him what she wanted. He was mortified. But he still did not get it. He still thought I was crazy over this situation.

        Funny thing about grad school girl. I just unleashed on him last week about her. Almost 20 years later. How he disrespected me. Blah blah blah. Now he finally sees everything I was saying and ow he finally gets it.

        So as your H does not see what is wrong with his AP, and how she is inappropriate and what her motives are, what are you going to do now?

        • Shifting Impressions

          TFW, he ended the EA right after D-day and there has been no contact for over a year and a half. He just hasn’t really acknowledged how inappropriate that behavior was. It is still part of the process of him dealing with it all. I feel he still is protective of her….and yes that really pisses me off big time. And yes he was part of that inappropriate behavior.

          He sees that having an EA is wrong but I don’t thing he suspects his AP of any ulterior motives, but like I said I often wonder.

          • TheFirstWife

            That was my husband in late 90s with his EA with grad school girl.

            I dismissed it at the time but now it has surfaced in a big way It now infuriates me he did not get it 20 years ago. But he does get it now.

            But not enough realization to stop his next affair. How come we can see it but they cannot? How blinded are they?

    • TryingHard

      It’s called know your enemy and the wives are definitely the enemy. Unwittingly so on our part. It’s sick that they do this a double stab. We are innocent and unaware of what’s going on right beneath our noses and they have to seal the deal by pretending to care about you or worse that they are a friend of yours.

      Therefore going forward, I trust no one. Nice right?

      • Strengthrequired

        Th, exactly, they treat you like they care, then stab you in the back. I trust no one, will always wonder what their motive is. If we have friends or family like this , who. Wants them. Not me, been there done that. Sick of fake.

    • TheFirstWife

      This behavior has been going on since high school. So many of my friends tried to steal my boyfriends. then I get married and girls befriend me to try and steal my H.

      Complete distrust. All the time. And now I can add my H to the list. Lucky me.

    • TheFirstWife

      I just remembered this detail of my H’s affair and want to share how delusional he was. Okay we met in college and married. Together 32 years and married 27. Kids in HS.

      So his most recent OW was 29. Single, cute type, not a great body but okay. Covered in tattoos. Neck, chest, arm (from what I could see). She wore funky boho -hippy type clothing. Freelance writer is her career.

      We are complete opposites. That is a nice way of putting it.

      Anyway the email exchange between them. She questioned my H about how will his friends accept her. (Please note when I first asked him about this email he lied about it and said it was hypothetical. Yes and I am stupid and cannot understand words in black and white where this was going). My deranged H writes an email in response that his true friends will accept her b/c if they love him, they will love her too.

      When the dust had settled I asked him one day if he thought which of his friends would accept her. Tattoos, drama queen, major issues (abandonment issues, father figure issues) etc. My H answered that almost no one would accept her. He realizes that now. The wives of his friend would not accept her. He knows that.

      So during his affair when he was almost on the verge of divorcing me, be truly believed his friends and social circle would accept her. Yes try bringing her to your corporate events. That would go over real well.

      But yet he truly believed it would all work out nicely.

      The Kate story is an example of what happens after divorce. She broke up a family but Doug, I wonder how many friends your BIL lost as a result of her. Please share.

      • Doug

        That’s a tough question FW. Since we have always lived hours away from my BIL, we are not that in touch with him to know much about his social circles. He has moved from the town where he lived with his ex-wife, so I’m fairly certain he does not maintain any friendships that were in that town. He has developed a new circle of friends in his new town that probably have no clue about their history and how they got together. I guess then one could say that he has churned his old friends into newer – less informed friends.

        • Strengthrequired

          Doug, I can guarantee, it wouldn’t be something they would like to tell their new circle of friends. “Ohh I cheated on my wife with her, left my wife and married her”. I have a feeling the story on how they met and got together will omit the fact that he was married at the time.
          A bit sad actually, when you think about it. Imagine not being able to light up when someone asks you how you met your spouse. It’s a nice feeling when you get to look back with fondness of the day you met, when no drama was involved, to taint your story.

    • MLC Experiencer

      Sounds to me like your brother in law might be having a midlife crisis. His OW sounds like a classic affair down.
      It won’t last.

      • Doug

        I think when the affair started (I think it was about 4-5 years ago) he was indeed in the midst of a MLC. Not sure if it’s still going on or what. Linda and I both have the feeling that it won’t last. We shall see!

    • MLC Experiencer

      MLC can last up to seven years.
      My wife is currently going through a major one due to her terrible childhood.
      I’ve done a lot of research in the last 18 months and apparently affairs are symptoms of deep psychological problems. Affairs are nothing to do with the cheated on spouse. They are collateral damage unfortunately. Them and their families.
      Its fascinating.
      The stories I’ve read in this comments section also smack of midlife crisis.
      It’s real, and it’s everywhere.

      • TheFirstWife

        So I have been well schooled by my therapist about mid life crisis.

        My H had one which led to the recent affairs w/ same OW twice.

        But he had a 2yr+ EA with grad school pal. Before they were called EAs and of course he denied it. That was almost 20 years ago. Never mentioned again. I never even thought about it.

        However that old EA is now part of his legacy and something I now deal with. I asked my H last week why he keeps going outside of our marriage to get what he needs.

        I think he was that funny flirty guy when he was out at work events w/out me. The kind of guy I always despised. The kind that would never behave that way if the wife was around.

        So I have been living like this for 2yrs since DDay1. It took me all this time to piece it all together.

        So I told him he had better watch himself b/c if I see something I don’t like there are no second chances.

        He did not have a horrible horrible childhood. But sorry no matter what my H knows right from wrong and wah wah wah stop the pity party already. Cheating is cheating.

        No excuses for this choice. His issues not mine. But I do resent being dragged through the mud b/c he was turning 50 and was bored a bit and unhappy and had a crappy job and boss. I turned 50 before him and was happy. Vi made it to 50 and was having fun.

        Sorry but I just think there are other things you can do besides cheat. Get therapy. Talk to your spouse. Read a book. Go to church. Volunteer. Take up a sport or hobby. Join a gym. Take yoga. Release your frustrations in a healthy way. BTW my H plays basketball 1-2x per week. And golf when he can. He has outlets.

    • Rachel

      Advice please.
      My ex just wished me a happy birthday.
      I only wish that he would have zero contact with me. He’s now pretending to be all nicey nice.
      Is it rude to tell him to lose my email?
      I pretend he’s non existent . I wish he would do the same.

      • Tryinghard

        There’s really nothing you can do or really want to do. If you say Shut the eff up, it only makes you look bad in your sons eyes. You don’t want that so I say be civil and say thank you as you turn around and walk away.

        Mainly you need to be prepared for this kind of interaction with him forever so you need to be mentally and emotionally prepared for it. Narcissists like him always have an agenda. Maybe his was hoping for a nasty response so he could say to your sons, “See I tried to be nice. She’s mean to me. That’s why I cheated”. Certainly don’t give him that pleasure.

        You know the opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. His birthday wish has no more relevance than if a grocery clerk wished you happy birthday. Hopefully less so.

        As to no contact, just keep up your end of no contact but make sure it doesn’t look like you’re being vindictive about it to your sons. Ugh, he really is like a nasty wad of gum on the bottom of your shoe:)

        HAPPY, HAPPY BIRTHDAY RACHEL. I hope, other than the piss ant interference, you had a great one ?

    • Rachel

      Thank you trying, great great words.
      And he would report back to my boys. You know him well.
      Thank you!!!

    • TryingHard

      Always remember when dealing with a narcissist, they always have an agenda and they will ruthlessly pursue that agenda. Because the agenda is to benefit them and their image. He will go to great lengths to try to make himself look good to your family, your friends and especially your sons. He will put on a show of humble contrite, the proverbial wolf in Sherpa clothing. His goal now is to prove to the world he’s a good guy, not the selfish cheater liar. He convinces himself everybody else is stupid and he is smarter than everyone else. What’s really sad is he believes it.

      All that crap, going to your fathers wake, saying he wants to reconcile and now recognizing your birthday are just his obsessive moves in a sick game to bolster his self image. He needs you to be the bad guy in all this. Your job is civil indifference to all his moves and he will have many. He won’t quit. But the more you smile, hold your beautiful head up, and turn your back and carry on with living your life, he will only end up looking more and more pathetic to the rest of the world.

      He thinks he really knows you and knows how to manipulate you as a means to his ends. What he’s too stupid to know is through all this you are not that woman he was married to. You’ve changed. You are doing just find without him.

      I feel for your sons having a dad like h but they will figure it out too. You have to set the example you want them to follow. Being rude and hateful won’t thwart your ex but it will hurt your sons. Don’t give him any power. Indifferent is your motto and way of life where he is concerned.

      I hope for your sake he finds a person just like himself to go off and live happily ever after. That could be like watching two preying mantis kill each other. Trust me that’s next. He will find some fellow Barbie narcissist to rub in your face. Again indifference.

      Don’t let him fool you, he doesn’t care, he only wants to use you for his own personal gain. Sick bastard.
      LOL. I’ll have to fill you in on my Narc MIL. But I’ve learned to be indifferent to her. She no longer affects me emotionally. Haha it’s only taken 35 years but I’m way smarter now

    • Rachel

      Thank you again. As you are 100% correct in all that you have said.
      He told both of my boys that he wants me back.
      I find it funny if he wants me back, why hasn’t he ever told me?
      Haha! To make me look like the bad one because I don’t want him back!!!
      It never ever ends!!!

      • TheFirstWife

        Typical guy. Only wants what he can’t have. If you were to tell him you want him back, he would run for the hills.

        However you are his “thrill”. His new challenge. Something elusive.

        What a jerk. He did not appreciate you when he had you but NOW he sees the light.

        A day late and a dollar short.

        Hope you had a good birthday. You deserve it.

        PS I don’t know the answer about blocking his emails since you have children. Makes it hard to know the right thing to do. But not responding to the insensitive jerk puts you ahead in this new relationship. He cannot say anything except you don’t respond. Ohh boo hoo to him.

        What about all the times in your marriage when he did not respond to you. Now he doesn’t like it.

        • Strengthrequired

          Rachel, Happy Happy Happy Birthday to you lovely.
          As for your exh, accept his Happy Birthday, just say Thankyou.
          I believe that you just need to keep above his level, don’t reduce yourself. Don’t give him anything to hurt you. Your children will see you as the bigger and better person, and whatever he says, will mean nothing. Unfortunately he will always be apart of your life, due to the kids, then the grand children.
          Please don’t let him get the better of you, you are not married anymore, you are your own person again, he can babble on and on to you in emails, yet you have the power in your hands to not give in to his manipulation. remember an email can be deleted without even reading it, or keep them and don’t read them, put them aside for when you need your own ammunition.
          Yet being civil is the way to go, he cannot tell you what to do or not to do, you aren’t under his control anymore. You have started your own life, now enjoy it, keep thriving and let him sit back and watch, let him realise that you have moved up in the world and there is no going back to being beneath him. He can’t push you down anymore, no matter how much he wishes you were still his.
          Hugs to you

    • MLC Experiencer

      Hi Rachel

      It’s interesting that he’s indicated his willingness to return.
      Any chance of some background info? Timelines?


    • Rachel

      Thank you all for your advice and birthday wishes. I had a wonderful day and a beautiful dinner on the coast in Rhode Island .

    • Sue

      So how is your BIL’s marriage now? Just wondering.

      • Doug

        Hi Sue, Well, from what we can tell they argue a lot. She calls to check up on him constantly when he comes in to town to visit his mother. She’s kind of ill right now and is going through various medical testing. We are assuming that it is probably related to her alcoholism – very similar to his previous wife. Here is an update I posted a little while ago and I think things are pretty much the same: https://www.emotionalaffair.org/honeymoon-phase-coming-end/

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