selfish quoteI know you guys are probably tired of reading my rants about my brother and my disapproval of his situation, but I just had to share another example of the selfish bubble that he and his wife continue to reside in.

For those of you who do not know, a few years ago my brother had an affair, got divorced and married his affair partner.

My most recent head-shaker is the result of a few different things that have happened over the last month or so. Here are the events and then I’ll explain why they upset me.

  1. My brother and his wife left a couple days after Christmas for a two week vacation at a high-end Caribbean resort.
  1. Our niece (my brother’s daughter) is pregnant and just bought a new house with her fiancé.
  1. My brother visited our niece just a week or so ago to check out her new house and spend a day or two with her.

Here’s where I get upset…

Saturday my mother calls me and lets me know that my brother had dropped by her house the day before, as he was in town on business. He does this often and I’m glad that he does. It is about the only self-less thing he does these days it seems.

Now, my mom loves to take pictures and therefore loves to look at them – especially of family. Knowing this, my brother apparently says to my mom, “I took a bunch of pictures which are being developed at Walgreens. I left them in your name so just drop by later and pick them up.”

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Again, that was nice of him. So far so good.

Then my mom goes on to say that she picked up the pictures and sat down to look at them and every one of them was a picture of my brother and/or his wife at the beach, or in a bar, or at the pool while on vacation. Not one single picture of our niece, her new home or her fiancé.

Keep in mind that my parents haven’t seen their grandkids in over a year, have never seen our niece’s new house, much less her new fiancé. Gee, I wonder what he’ll take pictures of when she has her baby – he and his wife in the hospital waiting room???!!

Doesn’t he think that my parents would be interested in seeing pictures of their grandkids and events and people that are a part of their lives?

During our conversation, my mom even said “What makes him think I want to look at 20 pictures of them in their swim suits?”

My brother knows how much his kids mean to my parents. When my parents were younger and more able to drive long distances, they would travel 8-hours or more for a weekend just to see his kids play in a soccer game, or a perform in a play or even just to babysit if my brother and his now ex-wife had to go out for some reason.  I can’t even begin to tell you all that they’ve done for those (and our) kids over the years.

Perhaps my brother’s recent history is clouding my brain here and I’m being overly critical, but to me that just goes to show how selfish he is and how it’s all about him and his wife.  It’s like he’s oblivious to anyone or anything else.

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    124 replies to "The Selfishness and Obliviousness Continues"

    • Gizfield

      Linda, it’s sad your brother is acting in such an immature manner. Nobody wants to see him and the current wife’s swimsuit photos, especially your mother. I actually thought you were going to say the photos had Racy stuff in them, lol.

      I have noticed that the few Cheater marriages I’ve been privileged to witness, they seem to all love over the top public displays of affection. Nobody else’s love just seems to quite measure up. It’s all over social media, all the time. Overcompensation, perhaps?

    • Alice

      He is a selfish jerk. But frankly, your family is enabling his behavior. From your past posts, it seems that your mother is more than happy to come up with excuse after excuse for him and the rest of you sit in silence with fake smiles not wanting to rock the boat.

      So why would he change? Why would he act any different? What’s the motivation for change? What consequences are there for him? Everything in his world is tralalala happy.

      Until someone pulls him aside and tells him in a matter-of-fact manner, that his selfish action are hurting his children and that he needs to make them a priority in his life, he will never change. The boat needs to be rocked.

      This is pretty much the same situation as my father-in-law, only in this case he was a widower. Some young thing came into his life and immediately got 100 per cent of his time and attention (and money). His kids and grandkids became unimportant. Pretty soon he couldn’t even be bothered to pick up the phone to wish them a happy birthday. It caused huge damage to their self esteem. Yet, everyone tip-toed around him, not saying anything for fear of causing drama.

      By the time he died, he had pretty much no contact with them at all. All they had left of him were deep emotional scars and the funeral bill. Until this day, my husband and his siblings wished they would have rocked the boat…..even just once. Maybe things would have been different.

      Linda, it won’t get better. It will get worse. He won’t have much interest in his daughter, let alone her baby. Say something and say it loud.

      • Linda

        Alice & Rachel, you both are absolutely right. He does need a wake-up call. I honestly think he doesn’t see that what he does is so stupid. God knows my mother isn’t going to tell him anything and my father isn’t thinking too clearly these days, so he won’t say anything either. Two of his kids have laid into him and have expressed their anger but it hasn’t seemed to affect him, outwardly at least. Thanks for the kick in the pants! Linda

    • Rachel

      Not tired about reading your rants. God knows I do it weekly on here ( probably more)!
      Alice is right, say something.
      Tell your brother that mom and dad would love to see pictures of his daughter and new home.
      He sounds selfish and parading around the pics of look at us, we are so happy!!! And I’m sure NOT.
      I would mention it to him.
      Good luck.

    • Blue

      Linda, I think your brother’s brain is so far up his OWN butt he’s probably just going to get mad at you when you point out how his now actions are actually affecting his children that way he doesn’t have to ‘feel’ the guilt of how he left his family. I’m just saying this because he may hurt your feelings to bring you down to keep you silent. We’ve all been through dealing with ‘head up the butt’ syndrome with our own spouses and they sure don’t process information that same with poo in their ears. Don’t let him bring you down, Linda.

      • Linda

        Hi Blue, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I wonder sometimes if he isn’t over any guilt that he might have felt. If he does still feel guilty, he sure doesn’t show it or say it to anybody in our family. He really isn’t the type to try and bring me down, but he is the type to get mad and then never step foot in our house again. Linda

    • exercisegrace

      Linda, I agree with the others. I think you should have a word with your brother. He may not be in a place to “hear” it right now, but I believe someday the truth will penetrate. It seems to me, most cheaters feel like they must prove to everyone how great and wonderful their affair partner is. After all, he traded his family for this woman. He probably lives in a great deal of denial and would be hesitant to end the relationship even if he wanted to eventually. Because after all, if he did? He would have to admit that he traded gold for a pile of poop.

      • Linda

        Thanks Exercisegrace. Boy you hit the nail on the head! My brother goes out of his way to show how great his wife is. My niece has said that she doesn’t want my brother’s wife to be around when she has her baby. My brother got mad because he said that she (his wife) and spent $2000 on furniture for the nursery and that she deserves to be there. Well, his wife doesn’t work and hasn’t for a while, so I’m pretty sure the $2000 was his. He just wants her to get the credit for it so she looks better in the eyes of my niece.

    • Broken2

      Linda I feel so bad for the children. They are going to grow up with some serious issues. My brother cheated on his wife and married the AP she did nothing for his kids and everything for hers. When they were kids they had to sleep on the floor because her precious babies couldn’t share their room with them even though they were all girls the same ages. They were just in the way. Vacations were spent with her girls, never his. They still talk about it today with sadness and they are in their late thirties. You have a right to rant. Your brother is selfish and spineless as my brother was. (is) Karma is a bitch….that wife is long gone. He has just failed at wife number 4 and has a new girlfriend. He is 66…not sure anything will ever make them truly happy.

      • Linda

        Hi Broken! Well, if there is any good thing from this situation, it’s that the kids are all adults – the youngest is about 26, so perhaps they’ve been able to handle this better than if they were much younger. But you’re right, if they were young kids and had to live through this, I think the damage would have been much worse. Do you think your brother is to the point where he regrets his past actions? Or too selfish to care?

    • TryingHard

      I’m always glad when you post. Lol aren’t we all here to rant??

      Your brother is a classic narcissist. Now why would your mother want to see boring old pictures of a house or boyfriend when she can be treated to beautiful pics of lovely vacations and best of all of her favorite person???HER SON!!! after he knows he’s really her favorite, not those selfish pesky grand kids and all their tedious resentment!!! Why can’t they just be happy??? And he spends money to make sure they are. Selfish brats in his little entitled narcissistic brain.

      I’m in the same camp. Call the jerk out on his odious behavior. EVEYOME tiptoes around these people. I see it with my MIL and guess what? That makes everyone enablers. I’d laugh in his face at his stupidity. He has way to high an opinion of himself and the only poor souls strong enough and smart enough to call him on it are his kids.

      I know when my h was in his narcissistic state my eldest son wanted desperately to call him out but my h was spending money on him helping him fix his house. He said mom I just can’t right now. Dad’s spending a lot of money helping me with my house and I need it. Soo hmm maybe my apple didn’t fall far from the tree??? I applaud your nieces for being brave enough to call his shit out. Money or not. Too bad the rest of her family don’t have the same guts. And this will have a lasting impact on them. Adult or not. She’ll find folks who support her and hey will become the surrogate family she needs. Sometimes blood isn’t thicker than water. I wish I knew them. They sound like strong women no thanks to their father and probably kudos to their mother!

    • OHC

      So I just got some news from my ex-AP and let me just say, to all you wives–don’t trust your husbands, not at all. I am stunned. I can’t give all the details right now, but let’s just say he took a major step that will seriously impede my moving forward with my life. All these big steps I took to make positive changes in my life that had nothing to do with him, he just upended them. And he’s apparently going to drag his wife and kids along in the process, because the marriage is doing so well.

      You may think it’s the OW who makes trouble. And jesus, who better than a single OW to be the bunny boiler!! But no, it’s your husbands who can’t decide what they want in their lives and cause a whole hell of a lot of trouble.

      Sorry to vent and be vague, I’m just stunned. I started a new, exciting life and now I’m trapped

      • Blue

        OHC- WTF does this mean?! ‘it’s your husbands who can’t decide what they want in their lives and cause a whole hell of a lot of trouble.’ Are you talking to the women and men here who have been betrayed or his wife who you’re cheating? If so may I put a blanket question on Cheaters ‘Do you think you are so much better than the people you are Cheating?’ Seriously- it’s really disturbing to Cheat people. Full Stop.

        Actually I’m surprised you’re surprised by his actions, whatever the heck they are, when you left your fishing line in the cesspool. You did. But it’s His fault?! Take some bloody responsibility for ‘YOUR’ role. You’re not trapped, his wife IS! She’s got a family that include her children to think of. What’s your excuse?!

        • OHC

          BTW, I love how you act like this is predictable. Don’t all the BS believe their husbands love them more than anything in the world and once the affair ends they wake from their fog and hate the OW? Doesn’t this go completely against what you believe about the OW? Wouldn’t you expect me to think this is awesome? Shouldn’t I be whispering sweet nothings in his ear and plotting how to rid him of his wife?

          Don’t act like you think this is normal

          • Blue

            My husband didn’t wake up to reality until I found out. Then his house of cards fell. He was panicked. I was panicked. It’s the worse thing I’ve ever been through.

            It works different for every one and every situation. One thing that’s a common thread in infidelity is one spouse cheated, lied, betrayed and endangered the person they vowed to protect until death (or divorce.) I don’t even know what the point of marriage is any more.

    • OHC

      I ended it 18 months ago and moved to the other fucking side of the country to let he and his wife be. I’m the one who demanded no contact. He is the one deciding to blow up my life right now. And his wife’s, by the way, despite the fact that I moved on and made some pretty serious personal and professional sacrifices to put distance between us. But apparently I’m still at fault, is that the way it goes? I need to quit another job because he decides to follow me? Move his family where I am? Really? And when he moves to my next job, what do I do then?

      But of course the OW is always at fault. I’m a crazy person no matter what I do, right? There is no way the poor, pathetic, lost soul of a cheating husband could be the one at fault. She isn’t trapped, she can divorce him and get alimony and child support wherever she wants to live. I don’t have that option, I have to support myself, I can’t leap from job to job every year

      • exercisegrace

        You can refuse to speak to him. You can refuse to take his phone calls, or answer his emails. You can walk away from him without a word if he approaches you. You are only trapped if you climb into the corner yourself. You don’t need to have a conversation with him about this. Send an email telling him clearly that it will be the last communication with him you have. You are changing your phone numbers. You want to be left alone. It is over and done. You will inform his wife if he contacts you again and you will forward the emails and texts to prove what your relationship was. That should make him back off fairly quickly.


    • Blue

      Then tell his wife. Please don’t ever judge a woman who is a mother trying to protect her family. This is something you know nothing about. She doesn’t even know she needs protecting because everyone who knows is lying to her.

      Your AP was your BOSS. You were his SUBORDINATE. He told you he was in love with you- What kind of PROFESSIONAL does this?! He should be fired.

      You do need to support yourself and he sounds like he knows you’re wrapped around his baby finger and you’re ‘friends’ so you won’t tell. He’s devious- no integrity.

      • OHC

        I will tell his wife if he pursues this more. I’m not judging her here, she has no idea. I haven’t told her up til now because I didn’t think it was my place to do so and I had removed myself from the situation. But she has a right to know if he’s going to pick up their family and move close to me

        I’m really not wrapped around his baby finger, don’t know where you get that idea. Did I love him? Yes. But if I did whatever he wanted I wouldn’t have gone no contact and wouldn’t have moved away. I never even told him I was in love with him, I denied it when he asked

    • Alice

      I dunno, OHC, but you sound like your addicted to drama. You’ve mentioned before that you posted on several forums for betrayed wives….not really sure why? It doesn’t seem like you are looking for answers or any kind of healing. Seems like you look for specific places that you know will stir up drama, then posting stuff like:

      ” I just got some news from my ex-AP and let me just say, to all you wives–don’t trust your husbands, not at all. I am stunned. I can’t give all the details right now…”


      “Don’t trust your husbands”


      “Can’t give the details right now”

      This sounds like you even careful craft things in order to extract this most drama possible.

      And my question is if you 18 months ago you moved across the country to leave him to his marriage….why are you *letting* him contact you? If you moved that far, surely you could change your email address and phone number? Kinda seems like you can’t let the drama go.

      • OHC

        Not that I need to answer this, but no, not trying to create drama. I have revealed so many details about my ex AP and myself that I worry very much that someone would figure it out. Which is why I don’t give all the details.

        As for being on the BS blogs, I used to write a blog myself about a year ago and many BS would visit, I would visit their blogs in return. Sometimes it was friendly, sometimes it was not. I shut down my blog last July and haven’t visited a BS blog in about that time. I don’t consider this a BS blog, btw

        Actually, the reason I am upset is that after finally having the drama of the EA die down, after finally finding some peace, my ex-AP is about to start more drama again. I am sure if it was your husband doing this, you wouldn’t find it to be silly drama

    • Blue

      He may assume you’re wrapped and it seems he’s using the feelings you shared and maybe your kindness and friendship to have it both ways. Or maybe he’s so wrapped around a ‘what if’ he can’t fully engage and respect his marriage. And chances are he doesn’t care who gets in his line of fire.

      I myself, have no idea whether my husband is 100% genuine 100% of the time. He doesn’t like it when I express this, so I rarely do. He hates it that I can’t tell, but all the stories I’ve read make me second guess everything. I guess that’s why I’m sitting on the fence, having a Plan B. I never thought I’d be living my life like this. I thought I was a stronger woman. It feels way more complicated than I can express. The only thing I do know is that I love my family unit more than anything else in this whole world and I’m going to work hard to do the best I can. I want a man that is my hero because I trust him.

      • OHC

        Thanks, Blue, and sorry if I wrote anything offensive last night. I was so shocked and upset, I needed to vent somewhere. I am calmer now and have time to figure this out (there are more details in my response to Tryinghard below.) Again, I apologize if I came off as over the top

        I appreciate your thoughtfulness here

    • Tryinghard


      I think it’s awful that you have to run around this country finding jobs just to get this guy out of your life. You’re right you have no one but yourself to rely on financially. You have to take care of you. I don’t know what kind of company you work for but do you have to interact with him for your work? Can you move to a different department?

      I do think the one thing you can do and is totally in your control is go full NC. no more seemingly innocent phone calls, emails, nothing. He will get the message then. We tried to tell you that theses “innocent” contacts was just him and you to an extent, leaving the affair door cracked open for who knows what. Now it looks like you’re going to pay the price again with you financial well being. I would bet if his wife knew about the affair she would not allow him transporting her and the family across country to the same town you’re in. Maybe it is time you told her.

      You are in a heck of a mess. I almost feel sorry for you.

      • OHC

        Thanks, I am calmer this morning. I was so surprised last night I kind of lost it. But the good news is that this is far from a done deal and it will take a while before a decision is made. This is him beginning a process, but there are a lot of other variables that are not up to him. And no, I wouldn’t be in the same situation I was in before, where we would be directly working together, however he would be one of the most powerful people at my company.

        For me it’s less about whether I will have to work with him directly and more that he would be a presence in my day-to-day life again. I don’t want to worry about turning a corner at the office and running into him. And I certainly don’t want to worry about running into him and his family on the weekends. This is a clean space I have claimed for my new life, I don’t want to think about him at all, really.

        But for now there is little I can do but keep moving with my life. It will be months before we know if this is really happening, it could easily blow up without me needing to do anything. I should probably have a conversation with him about it, like why are you being so stupid, but I don’t have the energy to go into it with him, he will just act surprised and turn it into something about his career and say how great his marriage is now and it’s just a coincidence and it won’t be a problem for him. Gaslighting goes both ways, they don’t just use it with their wives. I don’t have the patience for it anymore

        If it gets to the point where it’s actually happening and his family has decided to move then I will consider sending her an anonymous note. But I will cross that bridge when I come to it. There are some challenges to that approach, mostly around the lack of proof, but it’s an option. Or I could be in a serious relationship by then and find the whole thing really unnecessary. I just need to be aware of it in the background but keep moving forward with my life and keep our communication to a minimum

        • Blue

          OHC- I realized you were in shock last night and venting. I did take it personally probably because of my own insecurities about my H.

          All AP are not in the same camp as is not all BS are in the same camp. Each and every story is like a snowflake: all are shaped different but they still are all frozen water floating down to earth.

          Just continue trying to be a better person and try and never do anything that you have to hide or be ashamed of. You can only control your own actions and how you react to them…and believe me, I’m my own worst enemy sometimes.

          • OHC

            I completely agree–thoughtful action rather than reaction is the best answer. In reality, nothing has really changed at this point, I still have better control of my life, I can still be proud of the changes I have made, I can still take joy in my friendships and the activities I have reclaimed since the affair ended. As long as I stay tethered to those things that bring me joy, I can stay centered on what’s important.

            Where I have no control is over him, how he thinks about our relationship, his marriage, whether or not he is being honest with those around him, whether or not he is doing the right things for his career. But I can control how I react when his decisions affect me personally. Maybe the simple fact that I’m not reacting with joy to his plan and am withdrawing from him will be enough to kill it in the end

            For now, I am going to stop thinking about him and enjoy my day. I hope you have a good one as well

            • exercisegrace

              Here is what you can control. When you say “no contact”, MEAN IT. When you take his phone calls, and talk about the two of you being friends? You have not ended things, you have merely down-graded them. Experts in the field (meaning highly educated counselors) have strong agreement that an affair is never completely over until TRUE no contact has been established. You have allowed him to think the two of you can continue on as before, because your ACTIONS aren’t matching your WORDS. This creates a disconnect. And if I am remembering correctly, you told me you believe he as some form of Aspbergers? So he will need even clearer, stronger boundaries than most.

              Secondly, you can send him one, final, strongly worded email. Tell him it is over. Tell him if he pursues the move you will tell his wife. Stop being passive-aggressive. Saying it’s over, but acting like it isn’t is not fair to anyone involved. He may very well feel that you have been subtly encouraging him to move. Deep down that may thrill you. You may feel your time with him is finally here. But I would bet money that if he moves near you, nothing will change. He will not leave his wife, you will be the secret on the side, and your life will on hold and contingent upon the whims of a very selfish man.

            • OHC

              Does it sound like I think “my time with him is finally here?” Seriously, how on earth do you get that from my reaction. You are assigning to me what you assume every OW wants without reading my words. I have a mortgage and a career to worry about, with only myself to rely on, this isn’t a game to me

              Thank you for your advice, I will handle it myself

    • TryingHard

      No OHC you took EG message wrong. She’s putting the onus on HIM. YOU TELL HIM it’s over. I agree with what she said and you my dear have the power to shut him down. You don’t need him in your life married to another or otherwise. EG is on your side !! No nothing you said makes it sound like you want him in your life. I think you want him come rely out but he weakens you. Don’t give him your power or goodness. He doesn’t deserve it.

      And yes you are right the lying and gaslighting goes to the OW as well. Probably more do. He lied to you on so many levels. He’s a fraud and a liar you deserve better. You want better I know you do. You just need to cut that final cord by going full no contact and go on and be happy.

      This guys no good. You are lucky he chose his wife over you. You’re right you do have your career to think of. That’s why the old saying goes “don’t shit where you eat”. You need to protect your job. Do you really want to look for another one?? If the affair is found out trust me the subordinate woman gets the shaft. You’ll be labeled as sleeping your way to the top and you didn’t ! No one will believe you though.

      Look we are trying to help you. I know you think you’re helping us by warning us not to trust our husbands. Well I can tell you I don’t need you to tell me that. LOL I’ve lived it. Heck all I have to do is wake up in the morning to know I can’t trust him but I appreciate the wise words of warning!!!

    • OHC

      Thanks, Tryhard, but I’m not sure I agree that EG is trying to help. That’s fine though

      As I have reflected the past few days, I think the problem is one that is different than we have discussed. Knowing him and in particular his social challenges, which often comes out in his inability to see how his actions will affect others emotionally, I don’t think this is a move for him to try and start something with me again. I can tell the man isn’t in love with me anymore. I have a feeling he feels his marriage is much better and we are friends again, so what would be the harm if he took a great job that happened to be near me. In fact, how great to work with his best friend again! (I can honestly see his brain rationalizing in that way)

      The difference is that I know it would be a disaster. If not for him, than for me. That would never occur to him, that it would be so upsetting for me. But I think it would be a lot more difficult for him than he realizes as well. He has very frankly told me that he took all his feelings for me and his feelings about our relationship, put them in a box, and shoved them in a corner. He hasn’t dealt with them or acknowledged them, even in therapy or when he was seriously depressed.

      So yes, he’s been through over a year of intensive marriage counseling and we were no contact during much of that time, so I’m sure things are better at home and continue to be good. That probably makes him feel great. But by never acknowledging what led him to the relationship with me, I think that would bubble to the surface very quickly if we were in the same place. He may even be trying to move closer to me in a subconscious way, but I don’t think it’s an invitation to restart the EA. And I think if he actually realized the effect it would potentially have on his marriage, he wouldn’t do it.

      I am still not totally sure what I will do, as I said it is not a sure thing and definitely a long way off. It may go nowhere for him through no intervention of my own. But I don’t think the best approach is to threaten him. I also don’t intend to tell his wife any time soon. I have no idea what she is capable of or what her reaction would be and I can not risk her calling my new employer about this. She may even try to make sure he gets the job and I get fired before he starts, who knows–after a bad two years financially for them, this job would bring in about 4X as much as he makes now. There is more at risk for them than just their relationship.

      So for now I am still just contemplating the situation, but obviously a lot has become clearer in just the last 48 hours. That’s the benefit of not reacting to situations from an emotional place, but thinking them through. It’s still something that can absolutely not happen. But I think it stems more from emotional stupidity on his part rather than from some desire to be close to me again and that affects how I handle this with him.

    • TryingHard


      ok well you’re a big girl. You know what’s best for you. Good luck to you

      • OHC

        to be clear, I value your insight and your efforts to be supportive. The outcome I am aiming for is the same as what you propose. I’m not sure we should be in touch anymore and I need my freedom from him if he is this emotionally dense.

        I just think the steps to get there are different. Giz’s words reminded me that he doesn’t process social cues the way others do and if he is going to learn and understand where this was a major mistake, someone needs to explain it to him. If I create a lot of drama, tell him I never want to speak to him again, and threaten to tell his wife, it won’t make sense to him. He will be scared and know he did something wrong, but he won’t understand what it was. If I plan more carefully and actually explain to him why I think we shouldn’t be in contact and that his plans have an effect on me emotionally, he will back off. That’s the only difference

        Thank you for engaging me so respectfully, I appreciate it

        • Tryinghard


          I really don’t have much to say that I haven’t already said. You have your hands full and it really doesn’t have to be so. Saying that I understand what may be an underlying motivation and I’m hoping its your career. You can’t do anything to jeapordize your job. You’ve already done enough by getting so personally involved with him.

          While I believe you were wrong to get involved with a MM for you it’s worse because he’s your superior. He could make your professional life a moot point! Yeah there’s all kinds of sexual harassment laws that would seemingly protect you but in the end the woman loses. There’s still that Hester Prehn scarlet letter societal attitude. You’re a woman, you’re expendable.

          As you said you have no one but you to depend on and besides you may even like your job. His emotional and social skills are not as developed because of the aspergers so I’m sure you’re walking a fine line while drawing your boundaries. But I’ve got to believe if you just shut it down he may just shrug his shoulders and move on? I dunno, don’t know anyone with this affliction.

          As I said good luck to. You’ve certainly got a hell of a mess on your hands. A friend once told me we make our own hell. I think he was on to something:)

          • OHC

            Ha! You are right about that. I made my own hell, that’s part of why I don’t blame him or curse him. I have no one but myself to blame

            I completely agree the woman, particularly if she is a subordinate, is expendable. The difference now is that he doesn’t work at my new company yet. And the other difference is that at heart I think he wants to do the right thing, I just don’t know that he always knows what that is

            Thanks again

          • Just a Thought

            With at will employment laws in effect, pretty much all legal protections are compromised.

            As for that Scarlet Letter, it carries no weight with sensible people. Too many stupid or jealous employees automatically assume there’s “something going on” in any office friendship.

            Folks, hate to be the ones to break it to you…Oh who am I kidding, I LOVE stating the obvious. Sometimes “just friends” really IS “just friends.”

            • gizfield

              Well, obviously we all know that the vast majority of people have the level of maturity to actually be “friends” with people of the opposite sex. If we didn’t, we would all be cheaters. I have male friends myself but I’m not interested in anything more with anyone because I’m married.

            • OHC

              But you are a cheater, so how can you say that? I’ve been “just friends” with every other male I’ve worked with the past 20 years. And all my male friends and boyfriend/husbands of friends and so on. Why do you think it’s a matter of maturity? You cheated on your husband when you were young, so maybe that’s your explanation for your behavior. But I don’t have an explanation for why this one relationship went so differently when it wasn’t something I planned or was looking for or ever thought would happen. But I have to say maturity was not high on the list of being the issue when I’ve gone through therapy

              Personally, I have never cheated on someone I was in a relationship with, never lied or snuck around. So maybe that’s the difference. The problem of falling for someone unavailable seems to be different than the problem of willingly betraying someone you are in a committed relationship with

            • gizfield

              I never claimed to be the guy’s “friend”. He was my ex boyfriend, and when I spent time with him while I was married I knew it was wrong. We were Cheaters, not friends. If we were friends, I wouldn’t have snuck around, I would have introduced him to my husband, maybe invited him over for a beer. Do you see the difference?

            • OHC

              I guess I don’t understand, is it better that you right off the bat knew it was an affair, but otherwise have the maturity to have friendships with people you claim are friends?

              Your logic doesn’t hold. You claim you aren’t interested in being more than friends because you are married, but that wasn’t true in your first marriage.

              I never snuck around with my AP and never knew I was a secret. Does that mean it wasn’t an affair on my part, just on his?

            • gizfield

              My logic is fine. I knew it was wrong. It was an isolated incident, not repeated.

            • OHC

              Maybe I’m being dense, but I don’t get your point at all. I had an isolated event as well. I was “mature” enough to have hundreds of friendships and work relationships with men for decades without any crossing the line.

              You are ignoring the fact that most of the time people have issues with boundaries with just one person, not general issues with boundaries. Saying it is an issue of maturity is oversimplifying it. Sure, some people are serial cheaters, but I don’t think most are. There is something about a particular person and time in your life, often coupled with circumstances, that lead to an affair

            • Lynsey

              “I never snuck around with my AP and never knew I was a secret.” But, OHC, you knew he had a wife. Why didn’t you insist on meeting her since you claim you were “just friends” with this guy? That’s what morally conscious people do when they are platonic friends with members of the opposite sex.

            • exercisegrace

              Lynsey, because that would be like a bank robber notifying the chief of police that he was entering the bank after hours! Cheaters do not have a functioning moral compass and they KNOW what they are doing is wrong. That’s why they hide it at the time and then LATER they act all innocent. Lying by omission is still lying.

            • OHC

              Because I didn’t live in the same town as they did and he was my work colleague, not a random friend. In fact he was my boss. I didn’t meet about 80% of my colleagues’ spouses due to the nature of our work. In fact, there are several I am still very close friends with whose wives I have never met

              What EG said is just wrong. It had nothing to do with that. I was maybe in the same city as her twice over those 5 years and was working late at the office. As in actual work I was getting paid for, I wasn’t focusing on his wife while I was there.

              Nice try though, EG.

            • exercisegrace

              OHC, I was addressing my comment to Lynsey in particular and cheaters in general. It wasn’t directed at you, although I can see where you got that impression via this thread. However, it is all true. IF one has a strong moral compass, they wouldn’t be in an affair.

            • exercisegrace

              OHC, I will only add this in response to your “nice try” comment. IF the two of you were really “just friends”, he would have mentioned you to his wife, numerous times. As I recall from other blogs, you had regular contact with his family (parents, etc) and it sounds like a lot of people knew you worked with him. So he had to take some pains to keep his relationship with you off his wife’s radar screen. That choice is pretty much the definition of a relationship that shouldn’t be happening.

            • OHC

              EG, yes, clearly we weren’t just friends, we had a full fledged EA.

              However, my point was more that the question of whether our behavior was correct or strange was really more about what would be normal with fellow colleagues, rather than regular friends you have.

              It would be very strange to have a really good guy friend who was married and whom I talked to on the phone and went to dinner with where I never met his wife. It is not strange at all, particularly at my old job, to have a married colleague you worked very closely with, where you do those same activities and yet never meet the wife.

              I did in fact meet his parents, but only because of a the strange coincidence that they live one block away from me. Otherwise, I never would have. And I knew his friends because we worked at the same company and he introduced me to them through that route.

              Lastly, his decision to keep me a secret still baffles me–I wasn’t part of that decision and find it stupid, actually. The only thing I can say is that the fact she never suspected anything or found out is less a sign of him going to great lengths to hide me and more a sign of the disconnect in their relationship. She had strict rules that he wasn’t ever supposed to talk about work with her. I’m sure it stemmed from him being a workaholic, but that rule made it very, very easy for him to hide our relationship. She also doesn’t really keep in touch with his parents, I think they see each other once a year. So it doesn’t surprise me my name didn’t come up at Christmas. And the “no work” rule extended to when they would socialize as a couple with mutual friends.

              I still think she must be somewhat aware of me and just doesn’t say anything or doesn’t care

            • gizfield

              And this shit happened over 20 years ago. I was an adult woman so I was responsible. Maturity is respecting boundaries, like not dating when one person is married.

            • gizfield

              O.k. the affair partner was my high school boyfriend. He was always either my Boyfriend or my Ex Boyfriend. We were either dating or broken up. We did not hang around or even communicate if we weren’t dating. We never had a “friend” relationship. We met two days before my fifteenth birthday at the school playground where he was playing basketball with some boys and I was hanging out with other girls. We could not even date for a year. He told me he wanted us to date when I turned 16 and we did. We had a long-term sexual relationship for years, until we finally broke up when I was in my early twenties. I moved elsewhere and met my husband to be about that time. I didn’t even see or speak to ex boyfriend for about ten years. He contacted me, for the purpose of renewing our romantic relationship. I initially refused but about a year later we got in contact again and I agreed to see him. In secret, not as a friend. We didn’t have much physical contact but did eventually then broke up, for good, thankfully.

              I’ve been in one relationship or another pretty much continuously since I was 16. My male friends were just that, usually guys I knew through my boyfriend’s, friends, or husband. Like Trying Hard, I don’t socialize much with co workers. I eat alone, read or play games or something. I am not antisocial but I am a loner with a very short attention span.

            • OHC

              Ahhhh. This actually makes a lot of sense now. I think we have very different personality types. I m a big extrovert and tend to have lots of friends who I actively see and stay in touch with. I also have a tendency to start dating my good friends. Pretty much every relationship I have had except for two started as a friendship. And I end up staying good friends with most of my exes. So we are just built differently

    • OHC

      I think you are right in that folks are rarely fired, even for a full on affair. And in an EA I don’t think the company can or would do much at all, especially if the subordinate or other subordinates weren’t complaining

      But in general, the woman doesn’t come out as well from the scandal perspective, particularly if she is single. And other women tend to be the worst in terms of judging/shaming whether an affair happened or not. I’ve seen it a million times. But that’s only if the affair becomes confirmed

      I will say plenty of people thought something was going on with me and my AP. But the funny thing is I’m sure they thought much more was going on than actually was (that it was a PA + EA and not just an EA). And while I know a few of his friends talked to him about the dangers, no one treated me differently or told his wife. Even very good friends didn’t tell his wife. As long as it’s just a rumor, very few people will act differently.

      Even then, we had plenty of marriages that stemmed from affairs and ultimately everyone just went along with it. Those two people just couldn’t work together again. But neither was punished by the company.

      • Tryinghard

        I don’t think you’re dense at all. Sometimes I do wonder if what you are talking about affairs are the same as what we, both cheaters and betrayed here, are talking about.

        Maybe your friendship with this man wasn’t an affair at all. You really haven’t told us much about it so maybe it’s just a matter of points of view in the discussions?

        I mean from what little you’ve said about the relationship it doesn’t sound like it was an affair. Maybe just a really caring relationship. I don’t know.

        What I can tell you is the folks here know they or their partner had a real affair complete with lies, betrayals, sneaking around and sexual relations for some of us. We are deeply hurt people. We are trying very hard to put our shattered lives back together for many peoples sake least of which are our own. I’ve sen my husband go from a pillar of our community to a laughable cliche. It’s so sad for him but he did it all by himself well he did have the OW as a facilator to it. But truly it was his choice. She didn’t hold a gun to his head.

        I agree there are circumstances all around us that makes it tempting to make a poor choice and it takes an incredible amount of maturity to make the right choices ie just because you can DOESNT mean you should!

        Anyway I understand why you don’t want to go into detail regarding yourself. I’m sure you can’t risk any chance of your employer or those gossiping co-workers catching wind of it. I just think sometimes you aren’t talking about the same experiences you are having with the ones we are currently having.

        LOL I would bet even you would, hate, loath and despise the OW in my life as much as I do:). Especially if you knew the whole story which BTW did not come from my husband but her own family members!! But in the end it is my husband who is 100% culpable.

        • OHC

          There are a lot of reasons I don’t go into the details. Part of it is I wrote a blog every day for 6 months about it, with every detail possible. I just don’t feel like going through every single detail anymore.

          Then, when the time was right, I took down my blog. Deleted it from existence. That’s the beauty of your own blog, you have that control. But you don’t have any control over comments you leave on other people’s blogs. They are out there for as long as the other person wants them to be.

          I don’t worry about gossiping co-workers because he and I haven’t worked together for 18 months. And I really don’t think there could have been more gossip about us than there was. But, as his wife still doesn’t know, there is always the risk that a friend of hers or someone else will recognize details and tip her off

          You can question it if you want. That is always the issue with an emotional affair, how do you know if you never crossed a line physically. But I don’t question it, neither does anyone who knows the details, including more than one therapist (one of whom treated both of us at the same time), and many people who don’t know the details but spent enough time around us that they just knew. His assistant came to me a year after we both left the company, put her hands on mine, and said, “I know that you two had an affair, I know that you were in love. I don’t know if it was physical, but I just want you to know that I knew the whole time.”

          And to be clear, he and I don’t question it, which is probably the most important piece of information. We quite openly and honestly discussed our feelings for each other in the last months we worked together, although asI have said before, I never quite got to the point of being able to tell him I was in love. I could say I loved him and that I had feelings for him and even that it was possible I was in love, but I never made it over that last line.

          We would spend hours and hours talking about our relationship and our feelings for each other, what it meant that he felt closer to me emotionally than he ever had to his wife. I don’t know what to call it when two people, one of whom is married, spend the sheer volume of time that we did discussing what our relationship meant, going back to our first day meeting and reviewing every episode when we knew we had feelings for each other. Our first day, when he said he felt such strong feelings for me that he decided then and there to never mention me to his wife

          Maybe that’s not an EA. Maybe all the other details (and there are a lot) I haven’t shared don’t mean anything either. But honestly if our relationship wasn’t an emotional affair, I don’t know what is

          His wife has every reason to hate me. I never said she didn’t. She also has reason to hate him. If she had any idea that at the same time he was begging her to go to couples counseling and not divorce him, he was flying me to cities to be with him and spend hours discussing our relationship and what we meant to each other, she would be beyond furious. She would be single right now.

          But when I say we never snuck around, we didn’t. We didn’t have to. Everything was enabled by our job. Everything was legitimate. He didn’t tell her details and she didn’t ask. He didn’t lie, he withheld. My name was right there on his calendar, over and over and over again, all she would have had to do was look, but she never suspected. And I had no one to lie to except myself.

    • Tryinghard

      I’ve worked with many men. Both professional and Union labor. Male CEO, VPs, managers seeked me out for my skill set and a business resource. I was/am friendly but I know how to draw the line. I never went to lunch one on one. Never went for a coffee break one on one. I work well with others and have a little fun but mostly it’s business. I wouldn’t even go to lunch with female co workers. My lunches and breaks were MY time. The last people I wanted to spend my private time with were my co-workers. I had nothing in common with them other than work. They may have thought they were my friend but I only ever saw them as co-workers. Nice but that was it. They’d invite me to for drinks and I always say no. Had to get home to my husband and kids. He and I have a full social life I never needed or wanted one with co-workers . So I guess I just can’t relate to inter office affair drama or the need to even carry on one.

      Married or single I seriously doubt I would ever date anyone I worked with or for. As a woman I know the biases and I would really protect my source of income. No date, affair, relationship, man, whatever would be worth jeopardizing my financial well being or all my hard work building a career or even cause anyone to gossip about my integrity, perceived or otherwise. Wouldn’t be worth it. Just my opinion

      • OHC

        I get what you are saying. But you worked in an environment in which that was OK. My first career, I was friends with some people I worked with, but generally left work at work. The same is true of my current job, you leave at 6 and that’s all. There is no socializing

        But my EA was 100% enabled by my company norms. Not an excuse, but it’s simply the truth. Everyone was on the road, there was no option of going home to your family, every night was spent at a client dinner, lots of alcohol, everyone staying in hotels together. If a partner said meet me to talk about work at 11pm in the hotel bar, you did it. You didn’t have a choice. And you stopped even thinking it was bizarre. We even had programs where you went away for 3 weeks as a group and weren’t allowed to have contact with anyone in that time, including family. It’s very cultish and the spouses (usually wives) either got used to those norms as well or didn’t care or stopped asking

        Also, you HAD to do frequent one on ones with the leaders in your department, it was basically required and the only time to do them was usually dinner or late night drinks. These discussions were deeply personal and often emotional. The point was to develop lifelong mentoring relationships. And it worked. I have 4-5 amazing mentoring relationships, all with men, all of which are platonic. I have only met the wife of one of those men. And then there is my AP. You can see how easy it was to have our relationship fit in to that environment

        Now that I have been gone for a year I recognize how bizarre that environment was, but when you were in the thick of it it was hard to see otherwise

        • Tryinghard

          OMG!!! That would be my idea of HELL. Seriously, I would rather scrub toilets for a living than endure that as a lifetime career. That said I’ve heard of companies like that and they are cults! Hell, I’m telling you. Egads I hope you’re making a lot of money for all the sacrifices you’ve made for those buffoons!

          Yes I did get to leave at 5 unless I was working on a project. I also had to travel with my boss going down to Bentonville, AR to see the big shots down there. Hated it. Always ordered in room service. I think he was happy I did that so he could go drink without any witnesses:). Hated corporate life. Was glad when I got out of it:)

          • OHC

            Hahaha. Yes, they paid well, but they are lost years of my life in many ways. You become very accustomed to the lifestyle and the community and staying in the Ritz and having black cars take you everywhere and even the working 24/7, it’s like a drug. So many people comment on how I finally look happy and relaxed again. Part of that is that I was also carrying the burden of my EA during that time, but part of it was that it was just an unhealthy way to live. I am still in corporate life, but in a more normal job now

            • Tryinghard

              Yeah you bet it’s heady but yes those are lost years. It’s sad because it doesn’t really sound too normal at least not to me but I have a bend for calm. I love the Ritz and the Four Seasons but I sooo love my beautiful home so much more and my own beautiful black car in my garage that I bought and paid for:). We just got back from a nice vacation and I was so happy to be sleeping in my own bed.

              When I’m at the airport I always feel so sorry for those road warriors I see and pity them for all they are missing. And for what??? To each his own.

              Well maybe now that you’re not in such a rancid corporate environment you’ll have a more satisfying personal life away from work trolls:)

    • Tryinghard

      Hey OHC I have a question for you? How would you have felt if you worked in the same town, same office and knew the wife? Knew what they did on the weekend maybe even ran into them say at the movies or the grocery store. Say the wife came in the office all the time and she was friendly to you, nice even. Say you knew their kids. Even had conversations with them. What if you knew his friends, not work friends, but outside friends? Was just really involved physically, not sexually, but close proximity.

      Seriously, I’m not being mean or snarky I’m just curious for myself. I promise I won’t say anything mean to your answer:). Ok I can’t promise but I’ll try very hard not to!!!!

      • OHC

        It never would have happened in that circumstance. Even if I didn’t know her but we had been in a normal working environment I doubt it would have happened. Our relationship really developed over night after night of dinners and drinks and breakfasts with him never needing to be anywhere. Our work relationship during the day was intense as well, but it probably never would have passed a slight office attraction

        Remember, the minute he confessed his feelings to me and I found out I was a secret, I made us start planning our separation. It took a few months, but every email or conversation we had after that contained an understanding that our situation had to end.

        Up util that point, while I sometimes allowed myself to believe he was in love with me, I had no confirmation. And he would often pull back in a confusing way or do things to push me away. When he confessed how he felt he explained that those episodes, which had gone on for years, always came after he had particularly intense emotional experiences with me. At the time, though, I didn’t know that and it was hurtful and confusing. I just didn’t believe that this super handsome, successful guy who had a very pretty wife and three kids was actually in love with me. Every time he would do something to think maybe he was, he would push me away

        Which is a long way of saying that until there was no other way around it, I always believed that we had an amazing connection and that he considered me his best friend, but that I was the only one In love, the only one getting hurt. I didn’t understand the true set of circumstances until we were over three years in and it turned out we had both been in love for years and it had definitely hurt his already damaged marriage. Does that make sense?

    • TryingHard

      Yes. Mine was a theoretical question. Not to judge you but to figure out how the OW that interfered in my marriage could look me in the eye when I went in the office. How she didn’t feel guilty doing what she was doing and facing me and his family on a day basis. How she could actually invite herself to a family function at my sons house??? I would be trying to crawl under a rock do I don’t get what’s in the mind of a person who willing chooses a personal relationship with someone else’s husband.

      See I was nice:)

      • OHC

        I never want to meet her. Ever.

        I think there was a time when I did, when I had a little crush on him but I truly was harmless. I was interested in who she was.

        But over time I didn’t want to, to the point that last summer when I found out they might be in the same beach town as me, I changed my vacation plans so there wasn’t even the possibility of it happening. He and I were no contact at the time, the whole idea made me sick

        You can see why I am so uncomfortable with the idea if them moving to my town. And I feel like that’s partially his fault–I never asked to be kept a secret. Maybe if he hadn’t done that things would have been different. Maybe she would have tried to reach out to me if she knew there was someone new he was working with that he had become good friends with. Who knows at this point though

      • exercisegrace

        TH, our situations were so eerily similar. My husband’s affair partner was insistent that she meet me and our children. She wanted to see our house, etc. She even house-sat for us once when we went out of town for several days. That still makes me feel completely violated to this day. When they started a secondary business, they actually ran it out of our home… make me feel “more secure” about the two of them working together! It was a very open thing and so I had nothing to worry about. This woman was in my home every day, she interacted with me and my kids frequently, and at least in the beginning sat at our table for lunch or dinner quite often. Talk about sheer nerve! But she had experience with home-wrecking and ours wasn’t the first she had a go at.

        People like you and I are left gobsmacked trying to understand how someone could be so brazen and evil. How do you eat a meal staring at the children whose lives you are helping destroy? How do you look at them KNOWING you are trying to take their father away from them? It takes a large amount of pathology to be able to justify why you are making such awful choices. She had a front row seat to my emotional and physical deterioration, as I began to suspect more and more that something was going on. She used the distress SHE created to try and convince him I wasn’t a good wife, that I was crazy, controlling, possessive and many other awful things. I don’t honestly know how she lives with herself.

        • TryingHard

          I hear exactly what you are saying and to do it in your HOME really takes the cake!!! It’s as if some sort of perverse pleasure is derived doing it right under you nose. That’s what I don’t get. How on earth can they see this as love when YOU, his primary relationship, is in your face? Had he not been married would it have been acceptable to date in front of his old girlfriends? How romantic is that? That’s not romance, it’s sick! I can’t imagine being in that position. What goes into their minds? Does it add to the titillation?? It’s so weird.

          Coming to my grandchild’s birthday was crazy!! It was before DDay , but I remember that day. My husband and I walked into the living room and there she was! I thought, well that’s weird to have a co-worker, when NO OTHER co-worker was there, at the party. You know like the puzzles you play with your kids, What Doesn’t Belong in This Picture? Walking out I asked or commented to my H that I thought it was weird she was there. He said he thought it was weird too, but that he didn’t know anything about it. End of discussion of course because I didn’t know about them yet. Didn’t think anything more of it. Well DDay info comes out and I asked him again what the hell she thought she was doing there. What kind of mistress has such big balls she comes to MY grandson’s birthday party!!!?? He said she told him my son invited her. I ask my son and he about came undone. He told me she kept insisting on coming to the party. That she didn’t have anything else to do that day and just wanted to “drop by”. He said well ok, he’s pretty laid back and besides he had no idea what her agenda was but he said he thought it was weird too that she was so insistent about coming. It was weird, she was weird. But she was def the kind of person who insinuates herself into your life. She used to say our employees and the company was like family! Maybe because she had such a shitty family she had to pretend our employees/business were her family!! Now that’s pathetic. I’ve had lots of jobs and I’ve never considered any one of them remotely like family. But I’m not a pathetic, desperate loser either! I could go on and on the depths she and actually her relatives insinuate themselves into your business and life. I understand it’s how she got her claws into my H, and was very effective to someone with character, moral, and self esteem issues!!

          Anyway, I thought OHC might give some insight into the mind of a co-cheater. I’ve come up with my own theories and conclusions and yeah most aren’t pretty, but I thought she could give some personal insight from a cheater’s perspective. Not so much:) She has her own story she likes to tell and that’s ok. I guess we all do to some extent. I try to look for answers, but the only thing I continue to realize, and was actually verified by my therapist, is that she was at the very least a personality disordered person and most likely a sociopath. Guess I just need to accept that which I pretty much am!!!

          I’m forever trying to see the good in people. Keep reading about forgiveness and the need to even forgive the OP. So I try to find a shred of decency on which to build my forgiveness. But every time I come close to doing that with the OW, because trust me I would love to get her and thoughts of her out of my mind, I hear something despicable she did or said, even slanderous according to my attorney, I just thing F her she doesn’t deserve forgiveness, probably doesn’t want it so just keep hating her. She’s going to die soon anyway. LOL she thought her rare cancer was in remission, but it’s back wreaking havoc on her again. Never wished it on her but, Sucks to be her!

          • OHC

            Sorry if I didn’t give you the insight you were looking for, but I can only speak from my experience. I didn’t have an affair with a man where I had regular interaction with his wife, or any interaction for that matter. I’m not trying to lie or promote my own version of events, I can only tell you what I know.

            I can’t give you insight into your husband’s OW, since I have gone to great lengths to not interfere with his family and she did the opposite. What can I tell you? She sounds crazy and manipulative to me too

          • exercisegrace

            TH, perverse is this woman’s middle name. There is no doubt in my mind she deliberately set out to ruin a number of things for me, including our favorite two vacation spots. She insisted on staying there when they traveled on business and one of the places she had to fight him to go to it. They drove over six hours just to spend a day and night there. Disgusting. She was like a dog pissing on things to mark them. She has thoroughly ruined numerous rooms of my home. It is unforgivable in my book. I am furious at my husband and I think I always will be for that. Cheating is one thing (and bad enough) but even a dog knows better than to shit where it sleeps. If he had just kept it all somewhere else, away from his family and away from places important to us, it would have given me something at least.

            I can’t believe that woman had the nerve to come to your grandson’s party. These gutter sluts need to stay in their ditches. Oh well, at least they are back in them now, LOL. All three of our therapists said ours is a sociopath too. They all just shook their heads at her crazy. On the bright side, she showed him what can happen when you make stupid decisions!

            • Strengthrequired

              Eg, how true. — ” on the bright side, she showed him what can happen when you make stupid decisions”. At least out of all the mess left in our wake, this is what’s learned.

        • Strengthrequired

          Eg, my h ow told my h when she came back into his life a couple of months before dday, that she wanted to get to know me and his children. We went out a couple of times, and she also came to our home on two occasions, for some birthday parties. On my sons birthday, she gave him a card with a monkey grinning, and grabbed a banana from my kitchen to give to him. My h didn’t know that. My son and my children were quite offended. Then the next birthday she gave my baby girl, who just turned one a pair of earings that were dangly and long, which was more suited to someone much older, than a one year old. On both occasions she say at my dining table and ate my food, while people were eating and after she smoked in their faces, and in the face of my children. Of course she could do no wrong so my h said nothing.
          Needless to say, I gave those earrings to my son and told him to give them to someone he liked, after dday, as I wanted nothing around of her in my house.
          She had no intention on getting to know me or my children, she just wanted to see what she could end up with, and what she was up against. Possibly thought she could find something to help bring me down in the process.
          She also used the same tactics as what your h ow did, all to destroy me.
          I too, can’t understand how she lives with herself, and she calls herself family….

          • exercisegrace

            SR, the cold calculation is stunning when I look back on it. When the two of us would have the chance to talk alone, she would bait me to complain about him. Things like “you must get so frustrated with him when he works such long hours”. She wanted to take “proof” back to him of how unsupportive I was. But I supported him without question. The tide turned quickly after that, and it became increasingly obvious she didn’t like me. She put a minimal effort into pretending whenever he was right there, which was most of the time. She was seeing the discrepancy in the relationship he was describing to her and the relationship she was SEEING with her own two eyes. It deteriorated to the point where she would only say hi or even look at the kids and I if my husband was there. Otherwise she just ignored us. I was told it was my fault for “not trying harder” to be her friend. Sure. Okay.

            Eventually the stress and anxiety of my suspicions created physical illness and depression for me. Coupled with infections thanks to their PA, and I was a mess. This is when I was tried and convicted without being able to defend myself, and found guilty of being a terrible wife and a terrible parent. She definitely wanted to try and bring me down and I don’t doubt she was measuring the rooms in my house for her furniture.

            • Strengthrequired

              In that short time, my h ow told my h that I was a terrible wife and mother, she saw me 4 times in total, and only 2 times at my home, where I was running around being the host for my childrens birthdays. The other 2 times, when it was her and both my husband and myself.
              eg, I think they use that because if they believed we were no good it’s easier to convince the depressed husband, and also harder for them to break a family, if they actually believe we are good. It’s easier to convince themselves that they are saving the mm, and the children, then to say they don’t deserve me breaking their family.

    • Strengthrequired

      Ohc, my h ow was not a co worker, she was his cousin. We hadn’t seen her for twenty years, then she leaves her husband, gets into contact with my husband, starts giving him poor me stories, and ohh how am I going to raise my children, what am I going to do. That was a couple of months before my h affair. She came to our home on two occasions, with the last time, she had already been planning her move onto my h. A week after that visit, she met my h while he was overseas on holiday, then the rest is history.
      We welcomed her into our home, she saw I had a one year old child, a three year old, and two other children under the age of nine, plus my as well as my older two. It did not phase her one bit, not me confronting her when I saw her, actually she was shocked that I was angry with her, yet all it was, was about her, my children did not factor into her decision to try to destroy my family. She wanted my life, she actually even wanted my children and did her best to try and get what she wanted. The only problem was she did not count on me standing in her way, she thought I would be a push over. It still took over a year to knock her off her perch, but we finally did. At what expense though, during that year my self esteem, my health, my sanity, and the effects it had in my children was the result.
      Now we are still trying to make through each day, yet at least those days are getting further away. Thank goodness

    • TryingHard

      LOL OHC, Not blaming you. You did the best you could trying to answer my question. Was just asking in generalizations. I realize you have no personal knowledge of her. DUH, 🙂

      I’m pretty sure I have it/her figured out pretty concisely. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and it’s a terrible personality. Reallllly opens you up to being fucked over. You’d think a bright, intelligent, astute person such as myself would figure out by now, GIVE NO ONE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. I just thought with your experience of being in an affair with a married man you’d have some additional insight.

      No biggie!!! Hope you have a great Valentine Day

      • Strengthrequired

        Th, lol, me too, I have that same personality, give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and it does make you a push over. I agree.

    • TryingHard

      wooops. Personality trait—that is

      • OHC

        If I had all the answers I’m not sure I would still come to this site. I’m as confused by my experience as a lot of the wives are!

        Hope you have a nice Valentine’s Day as well…

        • Strengthrequired

          Happy valentines day all, well it’s Valentine’s day here already, so I will give an early one to all of you.
          I’m going out with my h tonight, hopefully it turns out to be the best one we have had in years. Fx….

        • TryingHard

          LOL I hear you OHC!! Well ask away. We try. I know I’m not very supportive of OWs but I would be if it didn’t seem like you were so defensive. I think we are honestly trying to give you some good salient advice or at least our view. It’s certainly your prerogative to take it or leave it. I’m sure you’ve been damaged in you relationship with a cheater but at least you knew what you were getting into, we didn’t have that luxury :/

          I guess in the end none of us have ALL the definitive answers, we can only educate ourselves and draw conclusions from what we learn.

    • TryingHard

      Happy V Day to you too SR!!! We are going out tomorrow night to a verrrrry fancy schmancy place!!! Oooo lala. Not my choice but his 🙂

      • Strengthrequired

        Th, have a wonderful night, sounds beautiful. You deserve that romancing, and he deserves to fit the bill. Lol

    • Tryinghard

      Oh good lord EG. I’d have to sell my house. I made him sell his car because she was in it. LO he didn’t want to because it was fairly new, but I insisted.

      I swear if she’d have been in my home I’d have burned it down. I know when I went back to work at our business once she was gone there was evidence of her shit everywhere. Made it very difficult to get past it. Not to mention how the employes wanted to gossip about her to me. I’ve pretty much expunged everything she touched.

      Can you sell your home? How do you deal with that?

      • Strengthrequired

        Th, eg, I’d want to sell the home too, if she did anything in here with my h. The car, I had my h sell, didn’t want him to keep it either. She was in his car so often, I hated getting in it. Thankfully he was all for getting rid of it. It was fairly new too.

      • exercisegrace

        Thanks TH and SR. We plan to sell the house as soon as we can without losing our shirts on it. The timing isn’t right with the economy. The whore has taken enough from me and I will NOT let her steal even more money. Interestingly, our counselor recommended that we just sell it, get out and eat the loss. She told my husband it was just one more cost of his poor choices. But I think there have been enough stupid decisions and I don’t want to make any more. Plus, our middle child is two years from graduating high school. I don’t want to yank him out of his school where he has many friends and plays sports, as we are contemplating a much bigger move than just moving out of our house. We are thinking perhaps a new location and a clean slate.

        TH…you described my fantasy, LOL. I have bought lottery tickets and told my husband if I win, I am burning this house to the ground! I too have thrown away many things that were reminders. My most dramatic move was to put his entire wardrobe (and I mean ENTIRE..down to socks and underwear and jackets, etc) in garbage bags on d-day and dispose of it. I WAS nice enough to go out and buy him new stuff, LOL.

    • TryingHard

      Well the market to sell your home is getting better and better so that’s good news for you and its future sale. When all that came down you are right it was an awful real estate market and I wouldn’t take that kind of financial hit either. I feel for you girlfriend, I’d be dying in that house though. Feels like the equivalent of being burglarized. Also most important is your son still being in high school and you are right it’s devastating to uproot them at this point. UGH really bad move Mr. EG!!!

      LOL I didn’t make him get rid of all his clothes, but one day I was doing laundry folding his boxers and all of a sudden it hit me. I went and collected all his boxers and threw them in the trash. Told him he needed to go shopping and buy all new ones. He knew why! Also I figured out, during the affair I had bought him some really cute boxers with kisses and hearts on them for Valentines Day. I noticed after giving them to him as a gift that he NEVER wore them. I thought it was so weird at the time and didn’t really ask. Assumed they were too tight or itchy or whatever. Then during “throw the boxers out day” I realized why he didn’t. She would have known I had given them to him as a Valentines present and he didn’t want her to know I had given him something so intimate and playful. Would have totally screwed up his M.O. right? What a loser!!

      It’s funny how sometimes you get a piece of the puzzle and everything else you’ve been wondering about, all those crazy little puzzle pieces that have been hanging over your head, somehow fall right into place. The good news is I guess is eventually we get our answers. Just have to listen.

      I’d love to beat a path out of this small town. Not because I don’t like the town itself just way too many people who know my business. Embarrassment for my husband, embarrassment for me, although I don’t have ANYTHING to be embarrassed about other than not throwing his cheating ass to the curb and people judge. Anyway, my whole family is here, grandchildren, and business. It would very hard for us to pull up and move. I just still cannot believe he’s rubbed my nose in his shit and in this small town and with the town whore whose family’s business is the gossip central for the town!! And for what, really, for what??? So stupid!!! I think had I divorced him I would have moved to the larger, neighboring city near me just to get a fresh start for myself.

      I hope you and your H do get to sell the house soon and even get out of town. I hope moving does enable a “clean slate” for you.

      • Strengthrequired

        Eg, th, I didn’t throw his clothes out either, yet my h did a few throwing anyway, he put on some weight and none of them fitted him anymore, so that was a plus.
        I was thinking eg, can you make the house look different, new paint job, new furniture, maybe new things out the from and back, ohh and some new furniture, just to make it look different and not so much a nightmare to live in? When we moved back home, we got rid of furniture and changed the way the inside looks a bit. The from yard, and back yard still waiting to give them a different look. As for the business, hoping to move that to a new factory soon, I am hoping it happens, because I feel sick every time I go there. I remember her smug face sitting there when I caught him with her one day, the look on her face when I walked in, then she buried her head in the phone.
        I’ve told my h that I don’t want to live in this area, too many reminders, yet we just can’t do anything about it yet.
        I agree, you don’t want to lose anything else because of her, she already took so much, as did my h ow. We lost so much too. Still waiting for the lotto to hit here too. Lol

    • GODSPEACH1968

      I have no idea why anyone is even responding to to OHC. I’m generally kind to people, but I want her to get lost.
      Go somewhere restart a blog for PEOPLE IN HER SITUATION.
      The two of them bludgeoned a family nearly to death, and she STILL GUILTY.
      No Excuses. I don’t see people who cheat as the devil incarnate, but the SELFISH, EVIL acts they were willing to commit without GIVING A RATS HIND QUARTERS ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE INNOCENT.
      I’ve suffered tremendous emotional, physical, relational, and financial DEVASTATION BECAUSE OF MY HUSBAND AND HIS FORMER GIRLFRIEND’S reckless reaction.
      My children have special needs, I have added PTSD, SHAME, Depression to Bipolar Disorder.
      My dreams and the lives of my children will NOT BE RETURNED TO NORMAL EVER BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DID. NEWSFLASH!!! Your pathetic apology MAY BE SINCERE NOW, but IT’S TOO LATE!
      You and this man couldn’t get whipped, jailed, degraded or punished enough to restore peace to the Wife and Her Children.
      You would not believe the comments PEOPLE MAKE TO BETRAYED SPOUSES. The shame is unbearable. WE DID NOTHING WRONG!!! People cheat NOT BECAUSE THEIR JOBS ENABLE IT, But because they don’t set up boundaries.
      I could care less TO HEAR YOUR LAME EXCUSES. You and this Man were SELFISH. I hope you will have scars for the rest of your lives. I hope that when or if YOU EVER GET MARRIED, you shake and tremble when YOUR MAN WORKS WITH A FEMALE or COMES HOME LATE.
      What you are experiencing now is KARMA. PURE AND SIMPLE. I hope you are OUTTED. You and the sad Excuse for a Husband. I could care less about some job or professionalism while YOU AND HE HAVE NEITHER. Now he’s stalking you.
      Congratulations!! You wanted his attention, and now you got it. Live with it. The wife and kids have a living hell. Why shouldn’t you??
      You have SOME NERVE AND NO COMPASSION whatsoever riding up in here after HELPING THIS SORRY EXCUSE FOR A MAN HURT HIS KIDS much less the wife.
      If this were a real platform, I would have to walk out for fear of wringing your neck.
      My children and I suffer with Meds and memories. I have to find a way to forgive.
      This woman has the nerve to try to create conversation with my mom and sister whenever she sees them. GUILT!!!
      Guess What? It won’t work. You CHEATED AND HE CHEATED.
      If you are REALLY SORRY, AND HAD ENOUGH, take your fine resume and work elsewhere. You feel like you shouldn’t have to go through all this. REALLY??? Well, you shoulda thought of that BEFORE YOU ENTERED INTO THIS PACT WITH THE DEVIL.
      If a job means more to you then peace of mind than start popping Prozac now. I wish I had been given the choices you chose not to take. And yes, I DO TAKE OFFENSE TO YOU BEING HERE. Maybe, everyone else will be all nice, and try to help you solve your issues, but frankly Scarlet I don’t care to…please do the Betrayed a Favor, and go read 1000 ways to lie, cheat, steal, or sleep your way up the Company Ladder or WHATEVER FORMER WAYWARD I’M SO SORRY I CHEATED WITH SOMeone’S SPOUSE types do in their spare time..Maybe buy the book, Not Just Friend’s, Get A Clue, Buy a Vowel, OR BEST THING YET GET LOST

    • theresa

      A couple of questions
      How many times have you thought about, or, promised yourself that this is the last time! One more time and I’m going to his wife? If it was more than once, why?
      I have done this to myself too many times. Can’t follow through on these promises to myself, he’ll never make me feel bad about myself again!…and then there was another time. You see’, I know once was too many, but 100 is not enough
      If you feel remorse for causing his wife any pain, please give her one small nugget, give her a gift. TELL HER! Now.

      Why would you want him as a friend? It’s much easier for you to walk away, from a friend. I’m sure you will feel loss. But your vested interest in being associated with him does not come close to the loss his wife and family will feel. (Blue, I love the phrase “family unit” by the way. Makes me think of the small WORLD a family is, in and of itself)
      The work thing, is there any corporate policy re work place relationships? If he is in a position of authority? Can he reel you in regarding your work assignment? Can he torpedo you if he could?
      This guy’s behavior is extreme, could it escalate? Sounds like he has already f/u your life. Why give him that power. Take Yor life back.

      • OHC

        Theresa, was this for me? I explained this in another place, but the EA has really been finished and done for about 18 months. We stopped working together at that time as well. We had sort of a strange end to our relationship–while our separation was planned by both of us, an event occurred that made it happen very suddenly without any agreement on the terms. So basically I just went no contact without explaining it to him, I figured he would figure it out. Which he kind of did, but never agreed to

        We just got back in touch in October, there was a professional reason that I reconnected with him. He asked that we be back in touch as friends at that time and so far, it has been fine. Really, truly fine. The EA has not restarted, we talk on the phone maybe once a month for no more than about 30 minutes and text a few additional times a month, but nothing major at all. As in a total of ten messages between us on average a month.

        As for why I would want him as a friend and why I think he wants to be friends? We were best friends for almost 4 years, spending all of our time together. We also built a business within our company together, just the two of us. There are many shared experiences, especially professionally, that really we just had with each other. We share a group of mutual friends whom we are both still in touch with and whom we will both continue to be in touch with for the rest of our career. It is a small and tight network.

        I already felt the loss. We went a year of no contact and while I fell out of love for him, I never stopped missing him or knowing there was a hole in my life. I think he feels the same. I don’t know where his feelings are at the moment, but he certainly seems much happier in his marriage from what I’ve heard from others. I do feel like I have taken back my life. I am happy, dating, in a great new job, working out every day. I haven’t been this happy in ages. I think sometimes people see my posts and think this is still a very active EA, it’s not

        As for him coming to work at my new company? I can’t tell if he’s serious about it or not. I’m not going to freak out and cause a lot of commotion until I know more. Yes, he would be in a position of very high authority, but I wouldn’t be reporting directly to him, like before. Would he try to pull me to work with him? Probably. Would he torpedo me? Never. Not his personality or his style. One of his incredibly good qualities is an inability to get mad, I’ve never seen him raise his voice or get seriously angry with anyone. And believe me, I have been furious with him before and yelled at him and stopped talking to him. He never responds with anything but kindness, for better or worse

        I still don’t want it to happen, but as I am very new to the job, I don’t think it’s terribly appropriate for me to call someone to complain about how he treated me at a previous company (when I was a willing participant) and potentially ruin his reputation and ability to get good jobs elsewhere. He is a top executive (I’m an executive as well) in a small field, word would get around about both of us. That’s also why I’m not crazy about the idea of telling his wife. I have no idea what she would do with the information and if she would try to harm my career.

        So at this point I’m in a wait and see mode and am not freaking out one way or the other. His chances of getting the job are at best 50/50 and would take 6-9 months for a variety of reasons. I’m approaching it in a calm way (although I was obviously not calm when I found out!)

        The affair, not my AP, fucked up my life for many years. I take full responsibility for my own poor decisions. But I am happy and in control of my life now. I will figure out how to handle him and the situation should it go forward, with an understanding that I have to determine how far I will go and what risks I will take to stop it from happening

      • OHC

        I should explain one more thing. I was very angry with him for months when we were no contact. And hurt and depressed and any number of emotions. All of those feelings ultimately helps me back from moving forward with my life.

        It wasn’t until I made the decision to accept what had happened with love and forgiveness for both of us that I was able to move forward with my life. It was like a huge weight off my chest and almost immediately things shifted mentally for me. A whole new life seemed right there for the taking, instead of one consumed with him

        I know many get frustrated when I get stubborn about not saying bad things about him or seeming too calm–so much so that some bloggers claim I made the whole thing up. But it is that state of acceptance, love, and forgiveness that keeps me grounded and confident in my decisions, whatever they may be. So that’s why I resist. Because I’m only where I am now by taking that approach

    • Lynsey

      OHC, One of the definitive warning signs that it’s an emotional affair is that the spouse does not know about this so called “friendship.” The wife still doesn’t know about you OHC, so it’s still defined as an emotional affair. Face it, you are still the other woman, the affair partner, or the mistress.

      • exercisegrace

        Lynsey, I agree with you. Most educated, licensed, respectable counselors will tell you that an affair isn’t over until there is no contact. They will also tell you there is no going back to just friends. The danger remains, whether the two people involved acknowledge it or not. MORE importantly, there isn’t a betrayed spouse in this world that would be comfortable with their husband or wife being friends with their former AP. No matter how casual or infrequent the contact. When my husband begged me to forgive him, one of the conditions was no contact of any kind. She has repeatedly contacted him, and he has told me every time.

        When my husband ended the affair, he wanted to tell me. His AP begged him not to. She also wanted to continue to work together. She convinced him that she could separate business from personal, and they could go back to just being colleagues. She spent the next year trying to subtly get him to re-engage in the affair. When that didn’t work, she left the company and began her campaign of hate. OHC, while I am sure you *think* the two of you could be “just friends”, I doubt it would ever work. It certainly would never be fair to his wife and kids. Contact of any kind is selfish in the extreme on both of your parts, but that is, of course, your choice.

        • OHC

          I can see how a BS would see it that way, but you ignore that there needs to be a hell of a lot more than her not knowing about me for there to be an affair. For one thing, there needs to be an emotional or physical relationship between two people. There can’t be an affair without the affair

          And as I have said before, therapists tell the parties of an affair different things. The therapists I have dealt with–two that I was in therapy with and a friend who is a therapist all have said I need to do what’s right for me in my life. If it is a positive for me, I feel like it is over, and it doesn’t stop me from making progress, they think it’s an option, just a step I need to take with caution. None have believed I should tell his wife.

          Maybe the point is it is over for ME. I can only control my actions. If it is not over for HIM, he shouldn’t be doing it. But he has to take responsibility for himself and his marriage, it is not my responsibility. My responsibility is to maintain boundaries with him, which I am now doing

      • OHC

        It was an affair, it is no longer an affair. I never, ever challenge that it was an affair for a long time–nearly 4 years. Absolutely. It is no longer an affair, though. We don’t have an emotional or romantic relationship anymore.

        Being a secret is one of things that CAN indicate an EA, but there are a whole bunch of other conditions that also need to be in place that no longer are with us–we don’t communicate or see each other all the time, share our emotions, talk about our relationship, tell each other I love you, none of that. I have only seen him once in the past year

        I can’t control what he tells his wife, but I’m not hidden. He and I are friends on Facebook, his brother recently added me as a friend, she can see all that. I heard recently that his parents mentioned me to her. He needs to figure out how to communicate with her about that, it’s not my job, especially if he wants to be friends

        He has many friends from his old company that she has never met or heard of–and for which she has specifically said she wants nothing to do with but is fine with him keeping in touch with (I know that from his best friend, not from him.) I used to be his AP, but now I’m just one of those people.

    • TryingHard

      If you don’t work with him anymore and you don’t live in the same town as him anymore, and it’s not emotional anymore, why is he still in contact with you? Do you talk sports, or some kind of mutual hobby, art, what is there that you two have to be in contact a dozen times in a month which is practically every other day.

      I’m sorry OHC but from the POV of the wife, the affair is still going on. Maybe not from yours but I can ASSURE you were she to find out, she would consider the affair ongoing. Particularly since you don’t even have work in common anymore. As to you being FB friends, LOL, if she knew about the affair you’d be de-friended ASAP if she intended to reconcile. No you would be banished to the hinterlands:)

      I don’t mean to be harsh but the fact that she doesn’t know about the true meaning of your and her husband’s relationship doesn’t negate the fact that your affair is still not in the open and ergo your current relationship with him.

    • OHC

      We talk about work, sometimes we help each other out on subject matter, sometimes on career thoughts. We update each other on our former colleagues and good friends, pass on hellos or funny stories when we see someone.

      And his parents. His father has been ill, I live close by so I see them more frequently than he can. We sometimes talk about how he’s coping with it. But also I update him when I see them

      That’s it. Its usually just a quick text

      • TryingHard

        I can see where the fine line is drawn between your POV and the BS POV. But trust me, LOL, as I said, were the wife to find out, she would def consider the affair ongoing.

        BTW I also don’t think it would be wise to out him to his wife. I have a feeling this guy could torpedo you if he wanted. He didn’t get to a high executive level at any kind of big company by being Mr. Nice Guy!

        So really??? your shrinks ACTUALLY said “do what makes you happy” Really??? HHHMMM doesn’t sound like anything any of my four therapists said and they were real doctors. OH well maybe these shrinks went to the YOLO university. Hey fuck everybody, do what makes you happy!!!

        • exercisegrace

          TryingHard. This is the classic OW double-speak. I’m sorry OHC, but if you truly regretted what you have done to this man’s wife and children, you would never speak to him again. Ingratiating yourself into his family by cultivating a relationship with his ailing father is sick. If my husband’s affair partner did that it would inexcusable. I would demand that he put a stop to it, and he WOULD. If she ever finds out, I think you will be surprised how fast you become non-entity.

          And the shrinks that basically tell you “if it feels good, do it”? Are not doing you any favors. I doubt their credibility, as they are certainly lacking in integrity, human decency and any moral fiber whatsoever. But there are always a few quacks out there willing to take people’s money and tell them what they want to hear.

          • OHC

            They have never said, if it feels good do it. What they have said is if it is healthy for you (and they test that) then that is ok. But you need to learn what is healthy and what is not. And that’s what I have done.

            I have to say this again, and the therapists have also drilled this into me–the health of his marriage is not my problem. As long as I am not crossing lines with him, I can feel out a friendship. The recovery of an OW has nothing to do with the BS. A therapist basically never mentions you. My recovery–and any therapist will tell you this–is on finding my own two feet again and losing the title of OW. Figuring out how I got in to the situation in the first place and recognizing patterns in relationships. And dating again

            Quite frankly, I have a relationship with his parents that is independent of him or his wife and has been in place for years. His father has been very ill for 6 months and she hasn’t visited once. My ex-AP has been 5-6 times, but she doesn’t come and hasn’t allowed any of the children to come see their grandfather, even though he almost died (and they aren’t babies, all are older than 10.) There is no falling out between them, no grand history, she just doesn’t believe in travel. And in general doesn’t call or keep in touch with them or her own parents, for that matter.

            So when it comes to his parents, who are really struggling right now, I don’t really give a shit about whether or not I’m intruding. I had a major surgery a year ago when my ex-AP and I were no contact and they took care of me like I was their own child. Brought me food, checked in on me every day, sent me flowers. Brought me to the ER one night when I got very sick. None of that has anything to do with him or his wife. If he and I went no contact for the rest of our lives tomorrow, I would still maintain a relationship with them. I don’t do it to get something out of him, I do it because they are good people

            I do regret that I caused pain in their marriage, but my recovery isn’t about their marriage, it’s about me. That may surprise you, but it’s the truth and any therapist will tell you the same. In fact, the main point of my recovery was to disengage from their drama. That is their business and has nothing to do with me–he can say he is wonderfully happy or horribly sad and I will not engage him on that topic. He needs to work that out with her and if he can’t, he needs to deal with it alone.

        • OHC

          Hey there. They don’t say do whatever makes you happy. They say, do and test what is healthy for you. Test your boundaries, learn where they are because if you don’t, you will make the same mistakes again.

          And they are pretty open in discussing the fact his wife doesn’t know. I think it was a mistake for him not to tell her, and they know I’m genuine in that, but they also think that’s not my job. And most of them, from experience, say the person for me to fear in retaliation is her, not him.

          Btw, I don’t totally believe in therapists. Most of my really good decisions had nothing to do with them and some of the bad circumstances that happened between my AP and I were due to a therapist that went too far and decided (literally) that our relationship was like the TV show Scandal and she was hooked on the weekly update. That was bad.

          I just point out that these therapists happened to also be couples therapists and directed me in a direction that the BS would probably find surprising. So for all the talk of “this is what the experts say,” that is usually what they say to the BS, not to all the parties

    • lea

      Dear girls,

      I have been reading all what OHC posted here with interest. And i have couple comments to say.

      First of all, she is not open and ready to hear all your advices. Like the saying goes: you can pour gold or water into ears of a donkey it will always shake them off.

      Secondly, as long as she is not willing to really look in the mirror at herself and her actions and choices she will tenaciously believe that what she had was love.

      However as my h’s niece told me during his madness that since she met as us during her teens she realized what love was really about. It is there without glitter but shines and engulfs everyone close by. Just like sunshine.

      Thirdly, doesn’t it seem lacking boundaries to you all when she says that she is in contact not only to him but also to his parents? In my point of view, it is not her place to do so unless she is relative of them.

      This sheer determination of hers to stay on the fringes of his social and personal life denotes to me that she is exactly we BS describe stalking obnoxious OW.

      And sadly she will continue to do so just to hang on to her belief that what they had was love. Because admitting the truth is almost equal to emotional and mental suicide. In that case she has to accept the truth for who she is and what she has done and been doing to others. However it is much easier and much more palatable by deluding, justifing, and lying to herself.

      Have a great weekend!

      • OHC

        I think you confuse delusion with not deciding that everything a BS has to say is absolute truth. I am a grown woman and have been through an EA. I know what it feels like, I went through hell getting out of it. Unlike any of you, who can be quite proud of never having been in an affair, I actually know what it feels like to be in one and be out of one. I am not currently having an affair. It’s not stubbornness, it’s the fact that I am the only one who knows which of my emotions are at play right now.

        As I have said a million times, but will say again, while I believe we were in love, I also believe it is irrelevant. He needed to make a go with his wife, he did, and it has worked. They seem happy. End of story.

        I don’t really understand why it’s so offensive for me to say it doesn’t matter that we loved each other and it’s good they worked it out. I could lie and say that 18 months out it’s clear we didn’t have feelings for each other, but why lie on an anonymous forum? We did have feelings for each other. IT DOESN”T MATTER.

        And how I’m a stalker in this situation is beyond me, but the fact of the matter is that for you it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It only has to do with your husband’s OW and what her actions were. It is essential for the BS to believe the OW is an evil bunny boiler. And yet, when you really think about it, how crappy if your husband cheated on you with a skanky whore who was worth nothing, stalks you, and meant nothing for him. Really tough to give up.

        But if he had real feelings for her and walked away out of love for you? That is a real love, in my opinion.

        I say this with no expectation you will understand or agree, btw, so don’t feel you need to reply

    • TryingHard

      OMG I am so lost on these threads!!! LOL, blogging can be confusing.

      All the lovelies here. I’m not posting to try and convince anyone here. I try to “keep it real” for all and yes my opinions have a lot of tough love and not a lot of fantasy or justifications. If what I have to say helps someone in ANY manner then I’ve done good. One never knows when one simple little word will help someone with an aha moment.

      OHC isn’t the OW in my life. But I’m sure some of my comments to her are flavored with the disdain I have for the OP that interfered in my life. She wasn’t a bunny boiler. Once my h told her it was over she moved back into the darkness like a good little cockroach!

      To that end we can only post on this blog what we have experienced. OHC has experienced being a mistress to a MM. Most of us here have not. We can only speak to her what our feelings would be toward her if we were in the wife’s shoes. She can take or leave it, I don’t care. I have NO idea who this person really is. For all I know she may be some crazy, trailer park living person who has nothing in her life other than television and the internet. She could be some person, male or female who has experienced unrequited love and looks to strike out at BS. Who knows really??

      I have NO idea why OHC wants to keep this loser in her life and yes I believe he’s a loser from her description. If she wants to continue a friendship with this loser that is her business but one thing she will NEVER to is convince ME it’s ok. It doesn’t mean she should be run off this blog. I don’t agree with a lot of what she says but I have learned a lot about OW and my husband’s situation through some of what she’s said. I guess I’ve always learned more from adversity than not. If you really listen to her and see her contradictions I think you too will learn from it to. I don’t take any offense from her. LOL even her 4-6 vs 8-10 comparison. And you know why, because I KNOW who I am, I know that I’m a 10 in ANYONE’S relationship. If the marriage is considered a 4-6 it’s the cheaters fault NOT the BS. And maybe she said that.

      One thing I am glad to see is at least her presence has brought out a lot more posters and that’s good. Surly everyone’s sick of me by now BWAHAHAHA!!! but I appreciate you letting me give my opinion.

      So yeah, I think it was Lin who said we won’t convince her. Well that’s her loss not mine. I love learning from others and even an OW like OHC has contributed to my education. More importantly it is WE who do the listening. Take what helps and leave the rest.

      This blog is one of the best out there. I also like Betrayed Wives Club. Elle has some very good posts. She’s a very bright experienced woman. And just for fun I read Chump Lady. Lots of great smart people at all three. The rest, not so much. So a big thanks to Doug and Linda for letting all of us post here and NOT block what we have to say.

      • OHC

        I really like and respect you, TH, even though I know you think I’m pretty stupid sometimes. I’m going to take a break for a little while, not because I feel like I’ve been run off but because there needs to be a healthy balance for me between the time I spend thinking about the EA and the time I spend living my life

        Also, I’m not sure there should be so much hullabaloo about me and my pathetic EA. I’m not proud of it and it’s been over a long time. And I don’t want to drag my poor AP’s bedridden father into the mix at this point. People think I’m stubborn, but really I’ve just already come through the ringer on most of this and figured out what still matters and what doesn’t.

        For those of you 18 months-2 years out from your D-day, you know there are things you feel are so settled you don’t want to revisit and other things that are still trigger points. It’s not that different for me.

        Anyway, I always appreciate your thoughts, TH. Just going dark for a little while to live my life

        • Tryinghard

          For the record OHC I don’t think you’re stupid at all. I think you are probably quite astute. I think you don’t see the forest for the tress with regards to your affair and that is not coming from a place of stupidity. I’ve done the same.

          I understand you need to stay away. I hope you will at least try to think about some of the things we’ve said. Not the nasty visceral things because I think a lot of us, me included just projected our hatred for the OW that was in our lives onto you. And maybe you did the same to us.

          I hope you find happiness and peace and a great guy!! I hope you will respect yourself not to settle for second best. That’s all any of us want and deserve.

        • Strengthrequired

          Ohc, I hope you are ok, I agree you shouldn’t be run off of this site, just because your an ow. We are all here to find some sort of closure and a way to look forward to the future, so we can leave the past behind. It shouldn’t matter whether it is a bs, a cp, or an ap. we are all going through something we need to recover from. We have all been hurt some way or other here, we all need that helping hand, that somewhere that helps us make sense of it all, or at least learn from it.
          I hope you are ok, and keep enjoying this new life of yours and those dates. Please drop back and let us know how you are doing?

          • Strengthrequired

            Ohh and ohc, I think you handled yourself really well, hold your head up.

    • lea

      Dear OHC

      I apologize to you if it seems I sound harsh. However as any other peson who has been hurt and wants healing, I offered my opinion. Let me try to paraphrase.

      First of all, I hope you know about the Golden rule: treat others as you would treat yourself. It is fairly obvious. Taking that into consideration, if you were in place of your AP’s wife you would not want things happen. And I’m pretty sure you have read our, BS’s, opinion about that. So looking back at the golden rule, you purposefully hurt that woman.

      Secondly, still being in touch with him you hurt her too. Looking at least at this site you probably heard many of us mentioning about No Contact rule And how that affects us. And it doesn’t help you and them either by you being in contact with his parents. I understand that they were great and kind and helped you in time of need. However, you don’t really know what that wive knows and the reason for all her behavior. So from where I stand it looks more like stalking, bunny boiler or not.

      Thirdly, and this is really important for me. What the golden rule also implies is that when you hurt someone you always hurt yourself. And if you are not in tune with your heart and spirit, body will show that throw pain or illness.

      For this I can offer couple of places to look:
      1. Louise Hay
      2. Luis Martins Simoes
      3. M.D. Paul Pearsall

      At the end, only looking at yourself and admitting and then accepting you can heal yourself. And that is all I can offer to you, OHC.

      Have a nice day!

    • exercisegrace

      For what it’s worth, I have only seen one comment on this board (from a poster I have never seen before) that could qualify as trying to “run OHC off”. My comments were certainly not intended to run her off, and I stand by them. Maybe she and her affair partner had “real love” and maybe they didn’t. The truth remains that what she continues to do by staying in contact with him and with his extended family is wrong. When someone chooses to live with morals, integrity and basic human decency, then they will admit when their actions have hurt other people. They will be remorseful of the collateral damage caused by their choices. If I were to have an affair, end it and be TRULY repentant? I would walk away from the affair partner and his life. Yes it might cost me friendships and other relationships. That is called consequences. It baffles me as to why people think they can cheat, hurt others, and not have to give anything up or receive any consequences of their actions. But I guess the title of this thread is very appropriate.

      For those who think MY comments were harsh, a little background is perhaps in order. OHC and I go way back. She has posted on numerous betrayed spouse blogs. I have never understood why she wants to invite such debate on those blogs, and then return to the CS/OW blogs to criticize the betrayed spouses and call them bitter, unforgiving and say they will never heal. Personally, I try to steer clear from the OW blogs. They say nothing I want to hear, and I have nothing to say that they want to hear.

      OHC, I hope for your sake you find peace and healing. It remains my opinion this will never occur when done at the expense of others. But obviously you are free to find your own way. I am not an enabler and I never will be. I will always speak truth and hope that someone uses it to guide themselves to better choices. If that is offensive, it is not a personal attack, it is just the way I see life.

      • TryingHard

        I didn’t think you said anything to OHC that indicated she wasn’t wanted here. I think she was trying to prove a point to we silly BS’s and tried to convince us. She constantly contradicted herself and I still think she was the original person who wrote the post “Aubrielle”, and the supposed person that was a secretary that posted defending the OW. She even stated that the AP secretary “took her hands and told her I know you and he are having an affair….” something to those words.

        I def think she had an agenda here. I think she wanted to rub salt in BS wounds as she is undoubtedly still hurting over being dumped or unrequited whatever we/she wants to call it. Regardless, she made a boneheaded decision to have an “emotional affair” and yes the quotes are intentional 🙂 and still hasn’t gotten over it.

        She bit off more than she could chew coming here and trying to convince us of her POV. I don’t think I’ve seen her post anywhere else, maybe Shawn the Wife blog. But she shuts those people down pretty quick.

        If anyone went after her it was me right from the beginning. And I agree with everything you are saying. She had excuse after excuse to still stay in contact and I truly don’t think she knows herself why she stays in contact with that idiot. But I’ll tell you all she needs is for his wife to find out and then she will see how unwise her choices were/are. She’s living in a fool’s paradise because the wife doesn’t know, so is her AP as far as I’m concerned.

        Look I’m the last person to not call someone out on their shit. This ain’t no bakery so if you come here and want opinions it isn’t going to be sugar coated by any of us. JUST SAYIN…

        This is Doug and Linda’s blog. If they found what we have to say offensive they could block us. So keep posting EG. Glad you realized OHC was the same person you’ve seen do this on other blogs. She can have whatever opinion of BS she wants. She’s never been married so she doesn’t get it. It’s ok. I think the Karma bus is after her 🙂

        • Strengthrequired

          Eg, Hun, it wasn’t you that wanted to run her off. For me, I feel sorry and sad for her. I worry about her, I would like to think that she can move in from the mm, but I do see she is not strong enough to say no. I do see the justifications she has, as to why it is ok, and why the h is like how he is because of the wife and the her husband aren’t good together, just justifying why something wrong was ok in her eyes, yet I don’t understand why you would want to keep someone in your life who can’t give you all of themselves. It is far too draining. It’s draining psychically mentally and emotionally.
          We can only try and help someone make the right decision for themselves, it is upto them if they choose to listen. Yet I still feel sorry and sad for her, I just see that this man has such a hold on her, and I worry she is just going to get hurt more, even though she in many ways allowed it.
          One thing is, I don’t see her as the ow I have dealt with, yet I do see the pain and feel the pain her mm wife would feel and is feeling, whether she knows about the affair or not. Maybe I was hoping to spread some kindness.
          I still find myself amazed however at how she held onto her own and engaged in each response. I think I would have stopped, and wouldn’t have been bothered trying to win my case, prove my point, it was far to exhausting just reading.

          • Strengthrequired

            I just wanted to add, I also see the pain she is in, which is why I wanted to give her support as well.

        • OHC

          Wow, TH, kind of a shift in tone

          To be clear, When EG interacted with me in the past, it was under the name OHC, both on my blog and others. I’ve never set up a different name. So she didn’t “realize” I was the same person. We have had an ongoing discussion for about a year now in varying places

          I won’t get into the rest of what has been written, because I find it ridiculous from the idea that I’m here with an agenda to pour salt in your wounds or that karma will punish me or any of the same old lines that repeat again and again.

          I was here to engage in discussion about a relationship that had a massive impact on my life and that I’m still trying to understand. I thought that’s why you all were here as well, to continue to process what affairs are and how they impact your life even when they are over. Contrary to what EG said, there were in fact several BS I had great relationships with, but they all stopped blogging. And I don’t feel comfortable on the OW sites because usually they are serial cheaters or all about sex or so very different from my experience that there is nothing to say

          But discussion only works when there are people with open minds willing to engage and even admit they might be wrong now and then. And for now, this group isn’t that way. I don’t feel run off, this isn’t a really belligerent group like you will find on some blogs, but it also just seems like a giant waste of time for me when folks won’t actually engage and I’m accused of using fake names every time I say something they don’t like

          I’m sorry you have all gone through the pain you have and wish you well

    • TryingHard

      LOL no tone change at all. I’ve never changed my opinions. I meant everything I’ve said to you in the past and now. I never have understood why you hang around this blog. It is so BS heavy, not many CS’s, very few males (especially Cheaters), and we are very opinionated when it comes to OW. As I’ve said, there’s plenty of blogs that side with the OW if that’s what you’re looking for. It seems many of us have given you advice and opinions from our POV and you eschew it. I can only conclude you have an agenda. I may be wrong again, it’s my opinion.

      Look, I don’t pull punches, I don’t sugar coat TO ANYONE, I may ignore comments, but never sugar coat. I’ve told you exactly what I believe and have never wavered.

      I do still wish you well. Why on earth wouldn’t I?

      • OHC

        Saying the karma bus is coming for me is a different tone, from my view. And saying I’m using fake names implies I have a personality type that goes beyond just the typical view of OW. And I’m surprised you interacted with me at all if you thought my purpose was to come taunt all the BS here

        I never asked anyone to “side” with me. I have no interest in spending time with a bunch of OW who think affairs are great. I basically don’t have anywhere to go to discuss these things, I’m not in therapy anymore, I don’t want to bother my friends about it. There isn’t a place for me. I know that doesn’t make sense to you because everyone believes I’m just like every other OW, but I’m not. At least not the ones blogging. That’s why I came here, because it’s just about the only site focused on EAs and is run by both a BS and WS

        But that’s fine. I am a big girl and have figured most of this out on my own up until now and I’m proud of the progress I’ve made the past 18 months. Whether a bunch of strangers on a blog agrees or not doesn’t affect me. I’m confident I will continue to make progress and make mistakes and learn from them, in all my relationships

        • Strengthrequired

          Ohc, keep moving forward with your life, without looking back. There is a wonderful man out there, that is waiting to give you all the love he has without sharing it with someone else, and he is waiting for to give him all of your love. You both are just waiting to meet each other, if you haven’t already, considering all those dates you have been on. Mr right, won’t play with your feelings, won’t only give half of himself, and he won’t hurt you, he will be your protector, he will be giving you himself completely.

    • TryingHard

      You are taking this wayyy too personally OHC.

      Look you had an affair with a MM. Yes the Karma bus is on it’s way if it hasn’t picked you up already. LOL you don’t think I’ve suffered from Karma??? Ha you think I think I’m perfect??? Oh hell no. Maybe all this shit I’m going through is MY own Karma bus. Please unless you are Mother Theresa Karma will find you!

      Nearly everyone who has commented to you you have defended and disagreed with. You say you came here for help and support well we’ve tried and you have an excuse. I don’t know what you expect.

      I’ve called you out on Bullshit talk and I’ve supported you as well. I totally get how you got into your EA. What I don’t get is that you don’t want to see how continuing contact with the asshole is not working on your behalf. I DON’T GET IT! But I don’t get women who have affairs with married men at all anyway!

      So let me ask you just what kind of support to you expect from all of us? Gosh, being a OW on this blog and not giving us anything to work with, and believe me there are some OW who have come here wanting help and advice from the BS POV, (EYES OPENED WHERE ARE YOU????) as in a poster here. Eyes Opened. We’ve all supported her here. So as an OW maybe you could approach us differently if you really want help because there are some very wise and compassionate folks here. And I still stand by my words, you don’t deserve the shit you got. You asked for it by deciding to get involved with a MM and still continue contact, no matter the reason/excuse. I think you would want better for yourself than someone else’s crumbs. No one deserves that. And I don’t think you’re stupid!!!! Ignorant, maybe:) Big difference. Maybe you’re just very young and inexperienced. Don’t know.

      As to the different personas, I got to say, your writing style is VERY similar. There are glaring similarities. I know I’m not the only one to see them. You want to deny it, well that’s your choice. Heck maybe we are all wrong. But for any poster here to think their words are running someone off I think are ludicrous! And if your feelings are hurt that we are suspicious well let’s just say that’s who we are now.

      I don’t know why I’m here. I’m four years out this year. My life is going realllly well. My husband has been great. But if I can say something, ANYHTHING to help someone who’s been through the hell and suffering I’ve been through, even an OW, not matter is my words are positive or critical, than maybe it’s a little Karma payback for what I’ve gained through reading these blogs.

      I do wish you well. I do hope you find a great guy. I do hope the Karma bus is done with you, although if Mrs. Cheaterpants ever finds out, I doubt it. Once your suffering stops and you start living your life with true integrity your Karma will turn around. Hopefully something someone has said here will have helped you with that.

    • TryingHard

      LOL do not think for one minute that anyone who would come here to taunt a BS would not be the recipient of my words.

      No One. Nothing intimidates me. I haven’t disagreed with everything you’ve said.

    • Strengthrequired

      Th is right, eyesopened came here looking for help and direction, and she didn’t get off easy either, but she saw how destructive her relationship with her ap was, and once she made that decision to cut ties with him, she didn’t look back. She started focusing on her family, her marriage, and trying to relieve the huge amount of guilt she carried around with her.
      Somehow she saw that interacting with a lot of us bs, she was able to learn from our experience, gain insight of how the bs feels, and has been able to use that to help her, and believe it or not she helped many of us too.

      • Strengthrequired

        I also just wanted to say ohc, is that we all want to help each other here, we are all still healing, if we werent we wouldn’t be here. We understand the pain, your guilt, your in, which is why we try to help you, because we know what it is like to be on the receiving end of the pain that was placed on us without our consent or knowledge for some time. We know how going no contact is important for a marriage to have a chance of working, and for the affair to stop. We know how affair partners that have stayed in contact have more of a chance of starting things up again, most likely by matter of weakness. Unable to help themselves, next thing it has flared up again. Look at some of these be here who have found out that their ch has been having an affair on and off for decades.
        Anyway, I wish you well too, I hope you can be strong enough for the sake of your health, and for the sake of your future to find someone that is deserving of your love.

    • OHC

      Thanks SR. I think some of the confusion is that for me I’m trying to make sense of a relationship that for me has been over a long time. So I’m here less to get advice on what to do now and more to process something that is still confusing and painful at times. I realize why everyone is so focused on the fact he and have started some contact again, but I’m not here for help on that. I’m here to understand a period of time in my life that I still don’t understand completely.

      I think that’s the mismatch. I’m not sure if that makes sense, but it’s why I think I come off as defensive at times

      I appreciate your kindness

    • Strengthrequired

      That’s ok, ohc, I just think you deserve better out of life. We are all so confused about what happened in our own lives, we are all in recovery mode and some are just finding out. We are all hurt here, and our emotions can also come defensive. However we all want to move forward. I think we can agree to disagree that staying in contact is not going to be beneficial to you, unless he was a free agent, not still married. Yet I also think you can find a man that will give you what you deserve, and that is completeness. I think you will understand that she that person comes and makes more of an impact on your life than what this mm has.
      I just want you to be careful, so many people including yourself can get hurt more if you fall back into the affair with the mm. I know that is not what you want.
      I know as well we like to tell you how important no contact is, that’s because it really is an I portent step in recovery.
      Hugs to you

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