Men Who Have Affairs Are Insane

insane manby Sarah P.

While we all know this intuitively, I wanted to provide an example of how insane a man can become when he is having an affair.

While reading the Chicago-land news today, I came across an absolutely horrifying example of this. It really drove the point home. But, before I get into it, I wanted to state that my heart goes out to the wife who was completely innocent in all of this—and like most wives, was blindsided and lost the life that she thought she had in an instant.

Today I read a news story that recounted a recent absolutely atrocious crime by a man named Jeffery. This man, who is in his early 50’s, had an idyllic life. He was the CEO of a successful company, he had a devoted wife, lovely children, and the financial freedom that most of us dream of.

The news reported that his home alone was easily valued over 1 million dollars and the company he owned was extremely prosperous. With a life like that, someone would have to be crazy to screw it up.

Yet he did….

The news story did not report exactly how he got involved with the other woman, but we do know there was another woman that he was sleeping with, and the news report referred to her as “Catie”.

Jeffery, who I will re-state was “happily” married, had made the choice to get involved with Catie. But, somewhere along the way, Jeffery began imagining that Catie was having an emotional affair on (the married) Jeffery with a former co-worker of Catie’s.

Of course, Catie denied the affair and the evidence points towards the idea that Catie was telling the truth about not having an affair with the former coworker. In other words, Catie was not having sex with another man and only with the (married) Jeffery.

Still, Jeffery became enraged and convinced himself that an emotional affair was happening between his mistress and the mistress’s former coworker.

Jeffery very calmly and coolly thought over a way to get rid of the man who he believed was having an emotional affair with his other woman. And so he stalked the man and then shot the man in front of the man’s home and the man’s real fiancée (who was NOT Catie) was inside making breakfast for the pair. Unfortunately, the man died on the scene even though his distraught fiancée made attempts to revive him.

Yes, this CEO who had everything in his life took the time to actually premeditate the murder of an innocent man due to his delusions. In (married) Jeffery’s non-rational mind it made total sense to him to knock-off what he delusionally believed was a rival for the affection of Jeffery’s other woman.

Jeffery did not stop to consider what the fallout of his actions would be—he failed to comprehend that he would be caught and that his whole life and the lives of his family would be ruined in an instant.

Jeffery, who had NO CRIME RECORD prior to this and who was a model citizen, threw it all away because he believed his mistress was having an emotional affair with another man.

Stories like these truly baffle me. We know that when men have affairs they are very deep in denial. But, most of them are not so deep in denial that they go to this extreme. Also, to think of the utter hypocrisy within Jeffery’s mind-set is completely baffling.

So here is the married Jeffery cheating on his loyal wife with another woman, yet Jeffery has the audacity to enforce some sort of strict moral code on his mistress. It appeared that his mistress was not sleeping with the other man, but even if she was, why on earth would Jeffery believe that a woman who was going to cheat with a married man would EVER be loyal to him.

Huh? Where’s the logic in that?!!!

In the news story, employees and neighbors of Jeffery all thought that the police had the wrong person because they all described Jeffery as ‘the nicest person in the world.’

So what gives?

What gives is this is an example of the deep denial that occurs during affairs.

The mindset that men have when they have affairs never fails to surprise me. The mental acrobatics that Jeffery must have been involved in to premeditate and carry through with his actions is alarming.

While Jeffery will probably spend his life in jail being the bottom to some angry, larger male inmates, Jeffery will be getting off relatively easy.

What of Jeffery’s wife? What of his family? What of the surviving family members and the actual fiancée of the man who was murdered? What of all those dreams that have been destroyed?

Affairs are always wrong and there is no way around that. But, affairs can also be deadly and there are hundreds of crimes of passion every year in the news—I just happened to come across this particular one.

I am getting to the point where I believe that the laws surrounding infidelity should be reenacted in all states. These are the now abolished laws that made infidelity illegal and made sure victims had some sort of legal protections and due process available. Victims had a right to be heard in a way that meant something. Other women who participated in adultery were shamed out of communities.

We all know the truth—adultery is deadly. Most of the time adultery kills the love in a marriage and murders the marriage that a wife thought she had. Though these events are unseen—the effect is the same—and an affair causes the death of love. Yet, it is denial that is the biggest psychological enemy because it allows men to carry on doing something that should never have happened in the first place.

Even though this is almost no comfort at all, know that when your husband was carrying on elsewhere, he was literally out of his mind. And this has nothing to do with you or reality. Maybe when we comes to, there will be something to rebuild on.


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116 Responses to Men Who Have Affairs Are Insane

  1. gizfield January 30, 2015 at 8:22 am #

    What about the Google executive whose crack whore stood there, watching him die of an overdose? He had a perfect life, or could have at least. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

  2. Beckyb2 January 30, 2015 at 9:35 am #

    Just what makes you believe anyone who cheats is sane? Insanity is part of a cheaters mentality and their total lack of morality. what part of sanity lies and creates chaos pain and loss of self respect? Insanity has no cares or concerns for the pain they are making for the ones who love them insanity never will care. Sane people never chose to self destruct nor do they ask anyone to join them in abusing and hurting those who love them.

    • El Ng III August 22, 2017 at 10:03 pm #

      I hate to break it to you, but what people call “love” is a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed. It hits hard then slowly fades away, leaving you in a failing marriage. The American ideal life includes everlasting happiness between a man and a woman, which is why you don’t want to understand what I mean, but that belief about everlasting love isn’t natural at all.

      In fact, we need several chemicals to love our children for more than a few minutes. Even more chemicals are required to keep us from abandoning them completely. Human beings naturally aren’t meant to dwell.

      Nevertheless, if a man cheats, a mental illness isn’t to blame. The man is bored of the relationship, stuck in a two-equally-attractive-women complex, or the relationship isn’t meant to be. This isn’t always the woman’s fault, but likely because of a phenomenon called “limerence”.

      Limerence is the state of being attracted to another individual, likely involuntarily, and will last at most a few years. That is why most relationships will last not longer than seven years.

      Do not take offense to your mate leaving you or seeming to be uninterested, because it is only natural.

  3. SoManyTears January 30, 2015 at 9:59 am #

    Is it possible that a man can have ONLY an emotional affair (that lasted 15 months) with a woman he’s previously had an affair with, lives just 3 blocks away communicates with thousands of times every day of those 15 months, was telling her he loved her, begging for sex, saying to her, “if my wife dies we can be together” and she loves him and has for 39 years. This is my husband. He denies all of it. I don’t think that a grown man that, during this time, had stopped having sex with his wife (me) can’t have had more than just an EA. we are stuck on this point. If he would only be honest.

    • Gizfield January 30, 2015 at 10:54 am #

      SoManyTears, from what I’ve heard they will only admit to what you can prove.

      • SoManyTears January 30, 2015 at 6:20 pm #

        How sad that a man won’t unburden his heart by telling the truth. Pride? Selfishness? Not being able to own up and admit his sins will cause no healing and more than likely he’ll lose his wife and family for it. So sad.

        • CBb February 5, 2015 at 10:33 am #

          And that is the part they just do not get. My cheating husband denied loving his other woman, even though he was planning to leave me and be with her AND I saw his emails where he said he loved her. They both claim they did not have sex. It was only kissing and EA. Yeah right and I am Santa Claus.

          Believe your gut and does it really matter if they had sex? Cheating is cheating. Emotional, sexual, 1 day, 1 year, whatever. Cheating is cheating.

          They all seem to act the same after it is out in the open. Honestly why do we bother sometimes? We only make ourselves crazy.

          I let it go and moved on past it. It is his issue and I will always believe what I feel is the truth, despite what I am/was told.

  4. Gizfield January 30, 2015 at 10:23 am #

    I honestly believe anyone who engages in seriously strange behavior, like murder, was already one beer short of a six pack all along, and adultery just brings it into the light. There is insanity all around you and thanks to hipaa laws you won’t even know it. I have a family member who thinks shes close personal friends with Hillary Clinton, controls Obama’s thoughts in his sleep, and she is single handedly preventing the Apocalypse. Among other things.

    The girl next to me, her friends seemingly normal husband shot her, put her in a freezer, beheaded her, then call ed the police, said she was alive. They pursued him, and he committed suicide so who knows what prompted all that.

    A lady who babysat my daughter when she was small, her husband went insane. I had met him, thought he was a nice sweet man. he kidnapped their two daughters, let the small one go. Kept her teenage daughter, his step daughter, hit her with the car, broke her arm, then jumped off a bridge in front of her.

    Anytime you cheat on your spouse on any level, you risk that you may let out the secret crazy hidden self of yourself or your affair partner, maybe even your spouse and are putting all of you in danger. You just truly don’t know what anyone is capable of. Even yourself.

    • CBb February 5, 2015 at 10:35 am #

      I will no longer sleep after reading that! Yikes some crazy stuff.

      • Gizfield February 5, 2015 at 2:00 pm #

        I know! And my husband claims his affair partner is crazy. An alcoholic pillhead. Nice.

  5. crepowersnemesis January 30, 2015 at 1:00 pm #

    I have somewhat different thoughts on sanity vs. insanity. I believe I look at this from a medical and legal use of the words, and not popular or common use. Two months after I told my husband I knew of his affair, he revealed to his meddling sister (a cancer nurse whose daughter was diagnosed with bipolar disorder) that he had an affair and that we were working through things together. She diagnosed that he was bipolar and told him he needed immediate psychiatric intervention, medicine, and perhaps hospitalization. She was sure that he had severe mental illness because this would be the only reason such a good Catholic man could possibly do the things he did. That afternoon she was able to coerce him into meeting her, not me, for an evaluation at the hospital where she works because it has a mental health inpatient facility. Guess what? The evaluation confirmed that he was sane, not bipolar, didn’t need meds or hospitalization, only counseling. He was already in counseling and his interfering sister knew it. I wish I could make her pay that bill since I believe the wrong person was evaluated. If we go by common beliefs of insanity, everyone in jail would be declared insane, not criminally responsible. Are all of the people we write about, the cheaters and their illicit partners, insane by law and able to be declared incompetent or medically mentally ill? Some are, but most are irrational, irresponsible, thoughtless, and most of all, just plain selfish. We should not believe that they were insane and imply that their actions were beyond their control. They weren’t. They made deliberate choices and acted on them, just like the rest of us. They need to be held responsible for past and current deeds and not be dismissed as being insane. It’s not a free pass.

    • Laura February 4, 2015 at 11:49 am #

      Well said. Infidelity is a choice. Infidelity is a person’s response to (or escape from) his/her own unaddressed emotional isssues…such as low self-esteem, childhood issues, wounds from previous relationships, narcissistic issues, and so forth. The research is pretty clear on this:

      Although someone having an affair is certainly able to compartmentalize the “regular” life from the “affair life”, this does not necessarily indicate insanity.

      Laura S
      Executive Director
      Infidelity Counseling Network

  6. Had to talk January 30, 2015 at 1:38 pm #

    First ever comment on an article here. But…ah…..women can also do these same things as guys.
    As a man and the betrayed spouse I really appreciate this site and the articles but had to remind all that women can also make very bad decisions.

    • Gizfield January 30, 2015 at 5:20 pm #

      I agree, women act every bit as bad as men. Some are worse.

  7. Gizfield January 30, 2015 at 2:06 pm #

    Insanity is a pretty broad definition. There are so many different diagnosis it’s incredible. Anyone truly mentally ill isn’t getting away with anything. I think most doctors are pretty savvy regarding fakers. And from what I’ve heard Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity is very seldom given.

  8. Strengthrequired January 30, 2015 at 4:03 pm #

    There was a current affair episode on a man who was having an affair for several years. His mistress kept telling him to leave his wife for her. The last time he was asked to leave his wife, he told her he would handle it. He went home and that night killed his wife. Made up a story to the police that she was missing. The investigation went on for a while, and the wife’s diary came to light, how she just wished her husband would just love her. They had two children. He was convicted of his wife’s murder after the evidence found.
    The mistress in tears, said “oh I don’t believe her asking him to leave his wife had anything to do with her mm killing his wife”. How she feels terrible.
    Everytime I hear about these types of stories, I think about how close we all have come to being one of those headlines. Affairs truly do hurt lives, the innocent and not so innocent.
    Every time something like this comes on TV, I can’t help but get up and walk away, because I get so upset.

  9. antiskank January 30, 2015 at 6:22 pm #

    I would have to agree that they are extremely STUPID, but I don’t know if they qualify as insane. Like crepowersnemesis, I tend to think that view just gives them an easy excuse, sort of like the whole idea of the “affair fog”. They made their choices and in my case, it wasn’t me!!
    Each time he made a choice to continue his EA with the skank, he chose her over me and continued to do so for a very long time. Who knows if he has changed his mind? He is an expert at telling me what he thinks I want to hear and smoothing the waters so he doesn’t have to be held accountable for his actions.
    I am more likely to believe that as the BS, we are the insane ones. We have been abused, betrayed, lied to, discarded, disrespected, damaged and hurt beyond belief and what do we do? We come back for more, declaring our love and trying to ‘save’ our marriage! I am one of these crazy people. Are they even worth it? I know I deserve better for sure but it is so hard to walk away from your whole life and all that you have invested. Hope springs eternal!

  10. gizfield January 30, 2015 at 7:36 pm #

    Are Cheaters worth it, Antiskank? Oh, hell NO! They have a character flaw. That being said, everyone has character flaws. If they have been a decent person all along, and they cheated they no doubt acted like a turd at that time. But, people can change, if they have a decent basic character.

    I will use myself as an example. I did commit adultery a long time ago, I thought it was wrong all along, but did it anyway. Which I admit. Let me emphasize that I never thought it was right. Ever. I was disgusted by my actions and haven’t repeated them. So, yes, people can change but you have to figure out if they are decent or not on the basis of their character .

    • antiskank January 31, 2015 at 11:49 pm #

      Thanks for the insight, giz. It sounds like you learned something from your experience and made a choice to change and not repeat your bad behaviour. I get the impression that Doug has done the same. I’m not so sure that some of the offenders, my CS included see things that way. They spend so much time trying to justify their actions so that they don’t have to be held accountable that they see no need to change themselves or work to repair the damage.

  11. Rachel February 1, 2015 at 8:33 am #

    Excellent point, antiskank!

  12. gizfield February 1, 2015 at 9:12 am #

    You are very welcome, Antiskank. And you are absolutely correct that if you don’t see a behavior as wrong or a “problem” you won’t change. In fact, I asked my husband the exact same question. “If sneaking around with a whore, for ANY reason, isn’t wrong what is there to prevent you from doing it again?” Actually, I should have left off the ” again” cause he continued sneaking around with the shank under the guise of “friendship”. She was “helping him with our marriage” and apparently he’s some sort of Spiritual Advisor, and an expert on handling teenagers who have “gone wild” (I’m putting that as nicely as I can, the daughter couldn’t help it that she had little supervision while her mother was whoring around with a married man).

    My cheating episode was in the early 90s, so cheating was just called what it is, cheating. No We’re Just Friends, She’s Helping me with Whatever, We Weren’t Doing Anything Wrong horseshit had been invented yet. If you were married and seeing or talking to someone inappropriately behind your spouse’s back, you were a Cheater. No qualifiers of Physical affair vs. Egotistical affair(my nickname for Emotional affairs, I think the term Emotional Affair is a little to flattering for this crap in my mind. It’s all so DEEP, ya know? It’s Complicated. Uhh, no it’s NOT, you are a cheater and that is not complicated or deep at all.)

    Nobody knew about this at the time. I did tell my HS best friend, after it was over, cause she knew the guy and maybe you have to confess to someone for absolution or something. Whatever the reason, I did tell her. He was my HS boyfriend, and she was disgusted by it as I was.

    There wasn’t any cell phones or emails at that time, and since no one knew, it wasn’t ever exposed. I had no interest in being Friends with this guy so I never spoke with or communicated with him again. I did see him occasionally around town for a few years, like accidentally at the bank, or somewhere and was just really repulsed by it. No desire to reminisce or anything like that. Not even about our pre affair relationship as a legitimate dating couple. It gives the other person the wrong idea, too. ” What we did wasn’t so bad, right?” I did tell my current husband about it, which was probably a mistake, in that he used it to excuse and minimize his own cheating. A few other people know about it, but it’s not really a topic of conversation. I mean, I haven’t seen this guy in 20 years and none of my current friends, family, etc. even knew him. He is irrelevant, that’s the best way I can describe it.

    I don’t Hate my ex, I just never think of him, and when I do ( like now, writing this obviously) it’s very detached and emotionless, like it was someone else’s story not mine. There is nothing for me in the past with this guy. It was an unfortunate incident that I personally am thankful I put in the past 20 years ago.

    • antiskank February 2, 2015 at 12:38 pm #

      Thanks for sharing, giz. You do give me some hope that it is possible to get beyond this at some point in the future. But I don’t know if my CS will ever be able to put the love for his skank behind him.
      If it depended only on me making the changes, we would have resolved everything by now. Unfortunately my CS seems to still be holding back and even continuing to minimize his cheating. Now I hear “It didn’t really mean anything. It was all just a fantasy”. I say bulls–t. A fantasy that carried on for 6 years and runied my life, destroyed my confidence, and wrecked our marriage. A fantasy that he was willing to trade in everyting to keep!!
      For almost 3 years after I found out about her and the contact stopped, he continued to long for her, fantasize about her, and try to keep the fantasy and associated feelings alive. I didn’t know that until recently! How do you give up something that powerful and satisfying? The pull of the fantasy was obviously stronger than the pull of a marriage and a hurt wife. Can you tell I’m having a bad day 🙁

  13. tabs February 2, 2015 at 8:45 pm #


    Hope you have a better tomorrow. I soooo sympathize with you. Bad days are miserable.

    How did you find out about the longing for the OW? That is one of my biggest fears. How do you fight the memories, espeically ones that are so strong…

    As for this article, I find “demented” a better adjective than insane. My H was jealous of the OW and her many “friends”, and wasn’t very subtle about it. He emphatically told me he wasn’t and denied it all. As his wife for 20+ years, I could tell. To make matters worse, the OW also knew and played on his jealousy. I tried to tell him, but I was told I was completely wrong.

    • antiskank February 3, 2015 at 3:02 pm #

      Hey tabs,
      I wish I knew if it would ever get better and we could feel safe, loved, happy, and whole again. I may be doing a little avoiding lately because I am just sooooo tired of feeling down and rejected so I am choosing to see the good things in my life and trying not to think about the bad memories and ongoing issues too much.
      I found out about my H’s longing and fantasizing recently. For such a long time, he has been telling me all the things he thinks I want to hear – he loves only me, desires only me, wants to be with only me, I look great, he was so stupid, he feels dirty and disgusted if he happens to see her or her name comes up, he hopes he never sees her again, she is disgusting, etc……
      I was starting to believe him a little, (okay, maybe not entirely but more than a little) and was trying to rebuild a marriage from the ashes. He swore he was being honest and life was wonderful and would get even better!
      I felt something was missing because that was his whole game. It was like he had been told that you had to get up in the morning and
      – tell your BS she looks good
      – hug BS twice
      – tell BS you love her
      – tell BS you want to be with her forever
      – tell BS you were so stupid to pursue skank…..

      You get the idea. It was like he followed his list and checked off the boxes each day, but there seemed to be no feeling and no other action taken. I pushed for answers. why wasn’t he talking about our lives, his affair, his skank, the damage he had done, our recovery, rebuilding our life. Why wasn’t he reading any of the books or articles to help us, why wasn’t he going to counselling? Why wasn’t he doing ANYTHING to help me heal or rebuild our marriage?
      After much pressing, he admitted he didn’t do anything because he didn’t want to, didn’t think he had to – even though I had explained on a daily basis what he needed to do. A few days later after a little more discussion, he admitted that during that entire time (2.5 years!) he had fantasized about being with her, having sex with her, he had been missing her so I guess that’s whay he had not felt like doing anything for me regardless of my feelings or the state of me or our marriage. He didn’t want the good feelings he had with her to go away and admitted it made him angry and afraid when they were harder to conjure up. I was devastated all over again to say the least!
      On the day I chose to tell him that I was done with him, he begged and told me that NOW he was definitely over her, hadn’t fantasized about her for at least a week (funny, huh). In a weak moment and taking all other things into consideration, I decided to give him another chance. He is failing miserably and refusing to talk to me- there’s nothing to talk about! He just repeats that he loves me and thinks that’s all he has to do. I am just so numb and hurt, although much stronger than I was. I don’t think I can ever believe a word he says. What do you think the chances are that he could actually be telling the truth for a change?

      • Blue February 4, 2015 at 6:34 pm #

        antiskank: If you find out somewhere, could you fill me in? I don’t know either whether I’m delusional or insane to believe what he says. I just want to believe him so bad…

        • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 4:27 am #

          Blue, antis lank, I believe we are all trying to find the trust again, we all want to believe that they are telling the truth to us again. After all they hit us for a six, with the lying and the cheating. They can’t expect us to just get over the lies, and just trust that quickly, and in a way I think we put too much pressure on ourselves to trust too quickly, when clearly we aren’t ready, probably also because the lack of help from our spouses too.

      • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 8:32 am #

        Antiskank: I think there is both good and bad news. The fact that he is fantasizing after all this time seems to me a clear indication that it isn’t the OW herself, but the fantasy. Affairs are, at their core, just escapism. And marriage isn’t what they are trying to escape. It is themselves. It is the cheater using unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with something or some things. Usually a combination of past and present issues. This is why less than three percent of cheaters leave for the AP. Because it was never about the marriage being bad and it was never about the AP being great. It sounds like your husband wants to be in his marriage, but he is struggling along without his drug. He misses the “high” of it, and the escape from whatever it is he needs to deal with head on, so that can be put in the past.

        And that is the bad news part. Until and unless he is willing to deal the issues that made him vulnerable to cheat, he is still vulnerable. Maybe not to his AP but to some other woman willing to be a married man’s whore. He needs to take proactive steps to fix what went wrong inside of himself. For now, just know that you didn’t cause this and it really is up to HIM to do the lion’s share of the work to fix it.

        • OHC February 5, 2015 at 11:58 am #

          I think there is danger in always sticking to the same story–an affair can only be an illusion, if there were feelings it was a “fog” that will pass, two APs will never be happy together, karma will punish them in the end. There is a repetitive narrative among BS that says there is no other answer than the on that has been laid out, usually by one or two specific therapists in books.

          The fact of the matter is that while that narrative might be true sometimes, it’s not always true and may not be true even in the majority of cases. But it makes the BS feel better and gives them a way of understanding a very difficult event in their life. I think that part is great. What is not great is what seems like an inability to admit that it isn’t always true.

          If your husband is still thinking about the OW 2 years later, he may in fact have had real feelings for her and miss her. We don’t have to make up a whole fog story about this. He has chosen to stay in his marriage, but may be at a point where he needs to make a real decision about whether that was the best decision for him or not. The same way any wife in that situation also has to figure that out.

          People fall in love with people other than their spouse. Not in every affair, but it happens and it isn’t just fog. Those same people can decide to save their marriage, even if they love their AP, for a variety of reasons, including sense of responsibility, their children, maintaining their place in society, money, and yes, love for their wife.

          Falling in love isn’t an excuse and it doesn’t make the affair ok. But I think it’s more wishful thinking than anything to say that the reason more APs don’t end up together is that the relationship wasn’t real, the people are horrible, they are insane. Most people have a great deal of their identity tied up in their marriage and are very reluctant to give it up, even if they don’t love their spouse anymore. That is reality. And in most cases I think they do still love their spouse, but it’s not necessarily the reason someone stays. It’s the spouse plus all of the other reasons

          Do people who have affairs have a bunch of childhood issues, etc, they need to fix? Sure, I guess so, but honestly who doesn’t? Everyone would be a little better off with some therapy. Most couples would be better off with some couples therapy. But I have to be honest, I have no idea what you would find in my history that would lead you to say–oh, OK, that’s why she had an EA with a married man. I’ve led a pretty great life and am generally a very happy person.

          I just think we need to take the hysteria down a notch or two. Most people who have affairs are not insane, some have real feelings for each other, most will still try to save their marriages. Of those who don’t, some end up with their AP and some don’t, some make it and some don’t. Some are good people at heart and some are not. And there is no such thing as karma

          • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 12:56 pm #

            What I personally stick to are the facts. Less than three percent of married men leave their wives for their AP. Divorce is (sadly) commonplace in our society and receives little or no judgement. So if these men really loved their AP, they would leave and be with them. The majority of cheaters end up saying the affair was the worst mistake they ever made, and the affair itself was nothing more than an escape. I have read many blogs, studies, books, articles, etc on this topic. Overwhelmingly, the affair is just a symptom of greater issues within the cheater, the marriage or both. Most cheaters figure out what went wrong and they fix it. I am sure that during the affair, they make a convincing case for being “in love” but in the end it is an excuse for their bad behavior and they see it as such.

            Take the hysteria down a notch? I don’t see hysteria, I see truth. Most of us have lived with men or women who have become an entirely different person while they were cheating. Cruel, cold and emotionally abusive. If I thought for one minute my husband was the man he acted like during his affair? I would be long gone. His actions were not sane actions. He treated our children callously as well. It was completely out of character for a man who had been an outstanding father up until his affair. Once he ended the affair and dealt with his depression, he was “himself” again. Three different therapists have discussed the reasons for this at length with us. And none of it has anything to do with his AP. Or me, for that matter. It was his illness and his poor decisions to self-medicate in a very destructive way.

            I believe affair partners have their own issues. At minimum, you have to have zero self esteem to wait around for scraps to fall from another woman’s table. To allow yourself to be a married man’s whore is pretty much the definition of mentally ill. AP’s like to dress it up and put a little lipstick on the pig to make it all sound prettier. But it in the end? It’s just an embarrassment. Healthy women with sound self-worth, don’t take scraps. They look for men who are available and worthy of what they have to offer in life.

            You are right about one thing. There is no such thing as Karma. There is God and his judgement on those who attack the covenant of marriage. Thankfully, for those who are truly repentant, there is His grace and mercy as well.

            • Gizfield February 5, 2015 at 2:50 pm #

              You know, EG, you are so right about divorce being so commonplace, there aren’t many real deterrents to it. if my husband and I were to divorce, the only people who would really care would be me and my daughter. It’s so common among his family and friends they probably wouldn’t bat an eye. My MIL would probably love it so he could tote and fetch for her all day long. My family and friends would be a little more concerned, but they know he was a cheater, and they would probably think I was better off and wonder why I stuck around as long as I did.

              So, yes, I agree if it were Real Love, why are they still married? Millions of people are divorced, and like I said, nobody really cares one way or the other.

            • OHC February 5, 2015 at 3:25 pm #

              I understand you believe you are completely right about everything. That doesn’t mean you are, though.

              There is definitely selection bias in the books and blogs you go to. You choose those people to interact with and those books/theories who reinforce what you already believe. You also pick the “facts” that you actually believe and use them to support what you say. I am not implying that you are doing it in a manipulative way, I think it’s human nature

              For instance you don’t question the 3% quote. That sounds off to me, just in terms of the number of people I know who have ended up with an AP. I would love to know how the data was collected, how old it is, who was questioned. It might be right, certainly most men stay with their wives. But I don’t just accept it is as correct. I also do not accept that if men stay in their marriage it is because they love their wives or love them more than the AP. There are a lot of factors involved.

              And I’m not surprised that you have the view the OW as pathetic. You have never taken the time to think about their experience in an objective way or even be open to the idea that an OW and her AP could have real feelings for each other or the complicactions of that relationship. I don’t think you need to, no one says a BS needs to care about the OW experience. But it also means that you have no real understanding of it and are usually pretty far off.

              As always, I respect you have had an experience that shapes your view and set of opinions. But that doesn’t mean it’s right for everyone. My experience has been different and is just as valid, even if it doesn’t line up with yours.

              In general in life I think it’s dangerous to refuse to accept other people’s experiences. When people insist they are right about everything on a certain topic, it’s usually a sign that they are not. And for the BS who have a different experience? I’m not sure how it’s helpful for them to keep hearing there is one answer or one explanation when that doesn’t mirror their experience

              • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 4:19 pm #

                I choose books written by people who have advanced degrees and have spent their careers studying the topic of infidelity. There is surprising agreement among them regarding this topic. Not surprising, is the fact that OW hate what these facts show. For the most part, the research bears out what I and many other betrayed spouses like me have experienced.

                As far as the blogs I read, they are chosen for an entirely different purpose. They are where I find support for what I have gone through and for what my children have gone through. Not one of them claims to be an expert. Nor do I. We share our stories. We laugh, cry, and support each other. We offer advice on making it through. For someone who is so critical of the betrayed spouse blogs, you spend an incredible amount of time on them.

                I agree that people remain in their marriage for many reasons. I didn’t stay after my husband cheated ONLY because I love him. But the fact remains, if he had truly loved his affair partner? He would have left. If what they had was better, more fulfilling, whatever? He would have left. And that is true in most cases. Affair love lacks the solid foundation the marriage was built upon. A strong relationship cannot be born in lies, deceit and betrayal.

                I will beg to differ with you on your next point. I have taken quite a bit of time to understand who and what the OW is. And we all have “issues”. But at the end of the day, the fact remains we have no business visiting our pathology on someone else. We have no right to try and break apart another woman’s marriage and damage her children. I don’t have sympathy for the whores of this world. I don’t care about their pain. They CHOSE IT. I DO pity them. They ARE pathetic. NO ONE says “I want to grow up and be someone’s whore”. “I want to spend my days waiting for a text or a phone call.” “I want to take the leftovers, and sneak around in back seats and hotel rooms.” “I want to give up my chance to have a real relationship and my own family because I’d rather steal one from someone else.” That, my dear. Is the very definition of pathetic.

                As far as “real” feelings go? I’m not sure how you define “real”. Most married men shake those “real” feelings off pretty quickly don’t they? Most of them are quick to run home to their wife, send off the no contact letter, and that is that. If their feelings were “real”, they wouldn’t be able to let go and ultimately they would be with the affair partner.

                Lastly, your experience is exactly that. Your experience. It is real and valid. In no way am I saying it isn’t. I am merely saying be careful not to infuse too much meaning into a relationship that he was never willing to invest much into. I know I am not always right, but I hit the mark on infidelity more often than not. Again, the research backs me up. I know you don’t like hearing what I have to say, so it always surprises me how many betrayed wives’ blogs you start these debates on.

                • OHC February 5, 2015 at 5:30 pm #

                  We will never agree on this and that’s fine. I don’t actually spend any time on any BS blogs anymore and haven’t for some time. I believe this blog is a general blog and not limited to BS

                  And I think we are sometimes arguing different things. Of course marriage is a more complex relationship than an affair with a different and deeper base of shared experiences. I would never argue otherwise. But I would say that the reasons marriages stay together are also complex and it’s overly simplistic to say that if a married man was truly in love with his AP then he would leave his wife

                  I actually find it interesting that it makes total sense to me why a man in love with his AP would still choose his marriage and it doesn’t to you. I think it makes sense to me because it was my experience. You could just as easily say it makes no sense at all for a single OW in love with her AP to give him up voluntarily, but I did. And I’m sorry but we are 18 months out and we both still believe we loved each other AND that we did the right thing.

                  You can call me a whore and pathetic as much as you’d like, it doesn’t phase me. The truth is my AP played a major role in my life, and while I totally acknowledge the affair was difficult and complicated and painful, I will never regret meeting him and having him in my life. He feels the same. So your attempts at insults just fall flat. We don’t view each other or our relationship the same way the BS feel we should

                  You truly have no idea what he was willing to invest, what he did invest, and why he stayed in his marriage. You also don’t know where my lines were and what I wasn’t willing to invest. You don’t know either one of us, but you are willing to make a lot of assumptions.

                  I don’t make assumptions about you. I don’t make assumptions about your marriage. And I certainly don’t use course language about you or BS in general. I respect that two people can have different opinions and different experiences.

                  But I also think more logic should be applied in some of these posts instead of falling in lockstep that if a man has fantasizes about his AP for over two years, it MUST be affair fog. No, it could be that he cared about her and is having a hard time letting go. There isn’t one answer to everything

                  • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 6:11 pm #

                    “I will never regret meeting him and having him in my life.”

                    This is the difference between us. Your inability to regret what you did to this man’s wife and children. Your inability to say…..What I did was WRONG and I am SORRY. Everything else is just details. Whether feelings were “real” or not, what was invested, why he stayed. All details. Because indisputably the majority of men STAY.

                    I think it doesn’t make sense to me because I would never betray someone I love. And I would never participate in TURNING someone I love into something despicable. A cheater. If I loved someone, I would be with them. Honorably. Completely. To love someone two years after the fact is MOST of the time, loving the fantasy. The idea of the person, not the person themselves. Although I won’t argue that some people do love someone they should not.

                    Let me be clear. I did NOT call YOU a whore. That term, by definition, is someone who sleeps with a married man or who is married herself and has sex outside of the marriage. The actions you took were just as damaging and wrong, but you did not make a whore of yourself. So you can call it coarse language, but I call it a dictionary definition. If someone doesn’t want to be called something, they shouldn’t BE that something. There isn’t a “coarse” description to give a woman like me who has spent nearly 28 years of marriage, faithful in every way. Who has honored her marriage vows to the letter.

                    I don’t need to make assumptions about you or him. You wasted years with a man who never gave you a real relationship or a true commitment. You have said as much yourself on other blogs. It wouldn’t be my choice, and i don’t understand it. But. It is up to you to make your own choices. I wish you well with that.

                    As far as falling into “lockstep”? i was merely suggesting to that poster a possibility as to why her husband might still fantasize about his AP two years later. I was trying to comfort someone who is hurting, not rub salt into her wounds. My view is as valid as yours, it just isn’t as palatable to OW.

                    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 6:55 pm #

                      I knew you would object to what I wrote about my feelings for him and how he feels for me. But there are two ways to react to that. You can understand it to mean I have no remorse and am a horrible person. Or you can realize that maybe the experience of the two APs is complex That we can have remorse but still feel love for the AP. That maybe some husbands don’t admit everything to their wives out of self protection, but actually miss their AP and have appreciation for the role they played in their lives

                      And to be clear, I said I don’t regret knowing him and having him in my life. I didn’t say I don’t regret the affair. I wish we had figured out how to have boundaries with each other and benefit from how much we liked each other without entering an EA. He is a brilliant, kind man and was a wonderful mentor to me. I wish that was all he had been, and not an AP

                      I don’t think there is a palatable or non palatable view when it comes to OW. I focus on the logical and when the answer is NEVER that the husband has real feelings for the OW, it is no longer logical. I am the first to admit what a lot of other OW won’t–some men are just having a midlife crisis, some OW are totally crazy stalkers or slutty, some men are just on a power trip and are actually in happy marriages. But I also happen to believe some marriages truly were awful before the affair, some APs really love each other, and you can never account for why some men decide to stay except its not always because they love their wives more

                      I don’t know if my AP loved his wife more than me and in many ways I don’t care. It’s not a competition. That is his family and he belongs with them unless he and his wife truly can’t stand each other, in which case they should divorce. It was a commitment he made and should try to keep, whether he was in love with me or not.

                      And yes, the years I spent with him could have been spent with someone else who was single. But as someone who is always glass half full, I have a hard time regretting the relationship for that reason. The personal lessons I learned from this experience, including the very positive ways he taught me to lead, prioritize my happiness and love myself in the ways he loved me are invaluable. You may see the, as a waste, I don’t. Those years could have just as easily be spent in a bad relationship with a single man where I may not have learned much at all. Who knows

                      Again, I know most BS don’t really care at all what the OW experience has been. But in ignoring or denying it, they risk losing insight to what their husbands feel but don’t tell them. Not every husband, I’m sure some truly do wish they had never met the woman or women in question. But not all of them. I guarantee it

                    • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 7:08 pm #

                      Ohc, have you ever wondered why he didn’t tell his wife about you? If he was so inlove with you, instead of leading you on for four years, he would have left his wife, he would have told her about you. He just enjoyed having his cake and eating it too. You were there while his wife was home raising the kids, he got to play and fool around, all the while keeping his wife and family. He knew you wouldn’t tell his wife, so why should he. A lot of ow would have got fed up with the whole dance of hiding and sneaking around, and having him not commit and the whole I want you to leave your wife for me. He didn’t have that worry with you, so he kept you hanging on day in day out, without the fear of being found out.
                      Why do you think he keeps in contact with you, because he knows you still have feelings for him, and it is only a matter of time, before you start up again with him, and he gets to have his cake and eat it all over again.
                      He know he is safe with you, that you will not tell his wife.
                      Now yes he may have had some sort of love feelings for you, you definately had love feelings for him, but You have to admit, that the love you had for him, did not outweighs the love he had for his wife and children and the love he undoubtedly gets from them, especially his wife. None wants to stay in a loveless marriage, not a man or a woman, and if he felt his marriage was loveless, he would have left her for you, and not looked back. Heck he had four years to work out his feelings for you, yet still stayed with his wife.
                      You can say it was love, but by what you have written, and by no means do I want to insult or offend you, but this man never had any intentions on leaving his wife for you, he was just playing with you while his wife wasn’t around.
                      I just don’t understand why you let him string you along for so long when clearly you had such strong feelings for him, and he still couldn’t tell his wife about you, and leave her.
                      If his feelings were as strong as you say, there would have been nothing holding him back, he would have been yours.

                    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 7:36 pm #

                      Honestly it was more complicated than that and it’s too hard to go through 4 years history to explain. But to be clear, I never asked him to leave his wife and repeatedly denied I was in love with him when he asked. He told me he loved me many times and I only said it to him once.

                      There are some very specific events that happened at the end that led him to try to save his marriage, but for all who know him, love for his family was not the number one reason. And he never got any message from me except that if he were a real man he would try to make it work with his wife

                      It’s not as straightforward and obvious as it may seem. While it went on for 4 years, we really only had about 3 months to figure it out because that was the only period of time in which we admitted our feelings to each other. And we were cut short in working through everything due to an outside event. If that event hadn’t happened, I think there was a high chance he would have gotten a divorce and it would have barely affected him. At the time he essentially had no relationship with his wife or kids

                      Whether we would have ended up together who knows–being in love doesn’t guarantee relationship success. I know everyone thinks OW believe their AP walks on water and their life would have been a fantasy, but I’m not that naive

                      I try to be as honest as I can here. He’s not perfect, I’m not perfect, his wife didn’t do anything to deserve this, their marriage was in real trouble but that wasn’t pillow talk in any way. We never snuck around, not once. They were so disconnected she never even suspected an affair. If she had she could have figured it out in about two minutes.

                      It just wasn’t as black and white as it might seem.

                    • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 8:49 pm #

                      So basically you are saying you don’t regret it because you wanted it and you got something out of it.

                      Do you even hear yourself? Do you really believe it is OK to hurt someone, to hurt CHILDREN just because YOU want the attention of a married man? Does it make it OK to hurt them because you think his marriage was crappy or any of the other reasons you use to justify what you did?

                      Affairs are wrong. There are excuses but there are never any that make affairs ok. I watch my husband struggle with the loss of his own dignity. With his feelings of guilt and regret that he betrayed not only me, but every moral and value he has ever held in his life. That is not something to be proud of participating in. It is not justifiable under any circumstance.

                    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 8:55 pm #

                      EG, you are reading what you want into it now. I regret the affair but I don’t regret his presence in my life or the positive things he did for me. It’s not straightforward. I think he feels the same way. In many ways we were very positive forces in each other’s lives. In other ways we weren’t and certainly the end of our relationship was a disaster for both of us.

                      My point is that it’s not black or white. It’s not all bad or all good. It’s more complex than that. I’m sure many people who cheat regret the whole thing. But there are others who have more complicated feelings, even if they don’t admit that to their wives.

  14. Beckyb2 February 4, 2015 at 2:54 pm #

    Insanity as defined by having and acting on delusional thinking as in entitlement to cheat and abandoning the value they have in life to be less yet delusionally they think they are good people while they are victimizing innocent people and acting and thinking as bad people do thoughtlessly and abusively treating loved ones to their delusional thinking and acting. Insanity comes in all sizes and shapes.

  15. Beckyb2 February 5, 2015 at 3:39 pm #

    You know when someone doth protest the facts too much maybe you should see the real life struggle. Facts are whores male or female are never going to experience the joy the pride the love the concern the fun the excitement of marriage . The ups and downs the commitment the love the shared life all you can see is the less than real relationship of lying hiding cheating where are you at two am when the three year old threw up for the fifth time and the baby needs a diaper change and needs you to breastfeed where are you when the husband/wife is throwing up crying they hurts so much while sick just where the hell are you oh your laying on your back with any one low enough to fall for your pitiful whorey life. I am not friendly with lower than whale shit whores you don’t have to believe in karma or God the truth is life can’t ever fuck you up as much as you do to yourself. So knock yourself out with life.

    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 3:51 pm #

      This is a great example of how everyone responds to their own experience. There is nothing in this description that remotely applies to my experience. I’m sure it makes you feel great to vent at me as if I’m your husbands AP, so go for it, at this point it doesn’t bother me in the least and if it makes you feel better, then great. But the truth is you know nothing about me or my story. And I have done nothing personally to hurt you

      It’s up to you and other BS how much truth and honesty you want to read or try to understand. I would never blame a BS who said this is all I want to believe. But it doesn’t mean they are right or that I have to tell them they are right.

  16. antiskank February 5, 2015 at 7:26 pm #

    Very interesting debates! I do agree somewhat that maybe OHC does protest a little too much. You make your experience sound so ideal, maybe that’s what we all want, a love so strong that we are willing to give it up for each other’s happiness! It sounds like you, just as many of us – are trapped in time and need to move on to a real life and forget the past – real or imagined. Just as we cannot completely understand your experience, you cannot understand ours. I am sure that nobody is trying purposely to offend anyone else, but I do admit that I feel somewhat offended when I come to a group for insight and support and keep seeing someone discount everything that the BS feels because their experience is different. Just my two cents, but this is already a traumatic experience fo us all, could we dispense with the hostility?

    Being betrayed is a devastating, life altering experience and not in a good way! It is so painful that we will do almost anything to get some relief from the pain. This includes doing much research to educate ourselves, reading whatever material the experts have written, consulting with others in the same situation, and trying whatever it takes to get our lives back on track. When you have invested your whole life, heart and soul into another person, built a life, home, and family with them, the stakes are very high. This is not something that we get over as easily as a broken nail!

    I’m sure not every OW is the spawn of the devil. I do know that in my case, many men in the office where my CS and his skank worked had special names for her that describe how they viewed her. My favourite is Easy-Sleazy! She would flirt with anyone and spent much time displaying her “assets” for all to see. Although my CH has admitted to fantasizing about his skank, even he admits that it was more the feeling of the ego boost, the excitement that someone found him attractive, the attention from a younger woman, the stroking of his hand, shoulder, and ego that he misses – not specifically her. He was feeling old and unattractive and along came someone to make him her hero! They never took their relationship outside the office but spent time in their little love nest at work. They never declared any feelings to each other and when I spoke to her, she claimed that she saw him like an older uncle! He says he can’t understand what he saw in her, etc. My problem is that after so much lying and so much time has gone by, I don’t know if I can believe a word he says. He is a very poor communicator and not good at expressing his feelings – heaven forbid – a man admit to feelings!!

    At this point, the skank is a separate, yet connected issue. I was not one of those people who felt they had to change everything about themselves after finding out about the EA. I didn’t change my hair colour, get plastic surgery, or try to be a copy of the skank. I am just fine as I am and have worked on being a better person in so many ways for years. I will not pretend to be something I am not.

    Often we as the BS, are willing to give up what we see as a marriage damaged beyond repair, but our CS will not let go. If I don’t feel loved completely, cherished, special, desired, respected – what’s the point? Regardless of what his feelings for her were or weren’t, I have lost the feeling of safety in a loving, caring partnership. I don’t feel that it is just us against the world, that he has my back, that I am his only one. He made a willing choice to ignore his commitment to me and that is very tough to swallow. I hope to get beyond this but am not sure that I can.

    It gives me great comfort to know that there are people here that understand how I feel, support me in my pain and indecision and doubt. Even the posts that I am not involved with give me comfort as others support each other and bring up points of concern that I share. Thank you to all of you that care enough to offer a kind word and suggestions for getting better!

    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 7:49 pm #

      Oh gosh, my experience wasn’t ideal at all. I went through many years of torture about what was really going on, I put myself in a bad career situation because of him, the end of our relationship was so devastating that it was like a bomb going off in my life, even if it was something I chose. I’m still recovering from all the bad choices I made in the wake our relationship ending. Totally stupid actions and I own all of them

      I just refuse to say bad things about him. And I refuse to say it was fake. It didn’t feel like a fog then and it doesn’t feel that way now. I have asked him about it since and it would have been easy to say he regretted things, but he admitted he didn’t. That he has never been as close to anyone in his life as he was to me. Again, I don’t say that to say we were perfect and ideal. He and I both fucked up many things due to this relationship and it was our faults completely. We both ended up in long term therapy and on antidepressants. I don’t say that lightly. I’m just trying to provide an honest perspective so people could understand that it’s not always what you read in the books.

      Maybe there is a BS out there whose husband was like my AP and maybe it would be helpful to read this, because her husband wants to be with her but is recovering from a broken heart. I just think that may be more useful than everyone telling her he will wake up one day and decide the whole thing was an illusion, he hates the OW, and everything is great now

      I don’t mean to be disrespectful if I come off that way. I stay on the blogs as a reminder of the pain I helped cause his wife and because I still have my scars. But having lived through this, I just refuse to lie about my experience

      • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 8:40 pm #

        And that proves one of my points. Real love doesn’t drive you to long-term therapy and antidepressants. Because “real” love is healthy for you and those around you. You were in a poisonous relationship that was hurting everyone, including you.

        • OHC February 5, 2015 at 8:48 pm #

          Aren’t a fair number of the BS depressed and in therapy? Does that mean that if that happens they should leave their husbands?

          And to be clear we only went into therapy and became depressed when we were separated. So take from that what you will

          • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 8:56 pm #

            Yes, they are. Here is the difference. They have a right to their pain. They didn’t choose it. What they DID choose, was to marry their spouse. They spoke vows and made promises. They built a life that includes a home, children, in-laws, chores, bills and lots of happy memories. In some cases, decades worth. They had every reasonable expectation that their vows would be honored, because THEY upheld those same vows.

            The devastation for them came out of nowhere. They didn’t choose it one day at a time, one text, one phone call, one flirtatious look and so on, step by step by step.

            for some their marriages were struggling before the affair. Others were not. ALL of them STILL expected their spouse to be as faithful as they were being until things got worked out. THAT is what sent them into therapy. The choices of two OTHER selfish people.

            • OHC February 5, 2015 at 9:39 pm #

              Just using your logic that if it’s true love you don’t end up in therapy.

              How do you explain that our depression only stemmed from our separation? How does that make it poisonous?

              Say what you will, but we took care of each other and made each other happy for years. When we separated we both morned the loss, even if we knew it was the right thing to do.

              There is no excuse for an affair. But that doesn’t mean we didn’t truly love each other

            • OHC February 5, 2015 at 9:53 pm #

              One last point, that’s important. As an adult, you know that you can lose someone you truly love and come out the other side. I knew it was going to be awful when we separated. And it took a long time. But we both survived. It was the right thing to do.

              It is harder to break ties to your children and community and leave your house and put everyone in financial ruin. Some people are willing to do it. But most, I believe, choose to suffer through the loss of love. And as I said before, I think most men love their wives enough that they are willing to try to make it work

              • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 10:25 pm #

                Well there’s one thing we agree on. Most men DO love their wives enough to turn their focus back where it belongs. Into the marriage. Most of them (not all) realize the strongest, truest love is with the woman they gave their name to and pledged their life to.

                You can run all day with your “affair logic”. But at the end of it, the vast majority of affair partners end up alone. I don’t understand who chooses to put themselves through that? Why go through all that pain? Why not just find someone available and get therapy for whatever drives them to poach other people’s lives?

  17. Beckyb2 February 5, 2015 at 8:01 pm #

    This is ridiculous love will NEVER include you and two people who are married. Are you really so blind you can’t see being asked to whore on the side for anyone who is married is NOT love. it has another name and you won’t like this one either but lust is not love. Cheating and joining anyone who is cheating means you are willingly accepting the role of ABUSER of the innocent spouse possibly children and grandchildren that is NEVER love. I have no reason to sugar coat your bullshit you never bothered to address your lower than average self esteem that made you see someone else’s life as if you were ENTITLED to any part of now look up delusional thinking and character disordered people your picture will be right next to it if not it should be. You are a wanna be always wanting to be what you are not in this case it is obvious your still in kaka land can’t you pull your head out of your own behind to see yourself? Can you see yourself standing up by a single man you love getting married and have the betrayed spouse show up and tell why you should NOT be married? Hmm why not open your eyes to exactly where you never belonged in anyone else’s marriage? It must not feel so great to know all you can never be now you are a cheater how many people truly will consider you as a partner to be trusted with their love?

    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 8:05 pm #

      Wow. You aren’t even writing complete sentences. I think it’s best I just say I’m sorry you are in so much pain and wish you well in your recovery

  18. Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 8:12 pm #

    Ohc, what I want you to try and understand, is that your involvement with your ap, the mm had a huge impact on his marriage from the start, whether his wife knew it or not. They did not have the proper chance to work on the marriage while you were around. Now he may have been so inlove with you by the end, but how fair was that to his wife? Now for him to even back away from his children during the affair with you, that is what we here have all seen and been through with our children. He needed to be completely there for his family, but all he could think about was you. How is that fair on his kids? Now what I don’t understand is why you didn’t put a stop to this madness from the start, if you were able to deny your love for him, why didn’t you let him go, so his family had a better chance at working things out sooner, before you both became closer, and feelings became stronger?
    This man made a committment to his wife when he married her, you had no place being the third wheel. He was investing his time and effort on you, when he should have been placing his time and effort on his family.
    Now he may have been broken, but he was not yours to try and mend. The advise you should have given him, was fix your marriage, or get a divorce. Now I am sure the last thing I would want is because of some major event in my life or his life, that my h stay with me because of it, I don’t need his charity or pity, so I truly feel sorry for his wife if this is the case, as to why he has decided to work on his marriage.
    He will eventually resent her more, because if he truly wanted to be with you, or divorce her, and didn’t due to this event, the. She will be the blame. Just like no doubt she had no idea why, he would come home so late, so angry and distant, or even coming home to her, making love to her only for him to be taking his sexual frustrations out on her, because he was to busy thinking of you and fantasising being with you instead. Now I don’t know about you, but when this wife finds out, I am sure she will feel so worthless and degraded, and she will remember those times he seemed to be into her, and then she will think “he wasn’t with me these times, he was really fantasising about the ow in his life. I’m sure you would feel just as dumped on and broken as she would feel if it was you who was the wife.
    Now just because she didn’t know, doesn’t mean she did not care. She just gave him more trust than he deserved. Or she actually did find out, but didn’t want to believe it, and also thought maybe it will ride itself out in time. Who knows, only she knows that, but she remained faithful to him, because she honoured her vows to the man she loved. If she did not love him, or didn’t think there was a chance to save her marriage, just like him, they wouldn’t remain together. With or without an incident that apparently kept them together.
    However there is one thing I know, while a man is in the midst of an affair, even a woman, they will lie, lie, lie, not just to the wife but to the ow/om too.
    So it amazes me, that such a smart intelligent woman you seem to be, would not know that. That you would believe the dribble he told you, for his reasoning for staying with his wife.
    Unless you are a fly on the wall while in his bedroom, in his home or even while he is out with his wife, will you truly know the truth.
    I’m sorry, if it seems harsh, but not the wife or the children deserved the disconnection he put on them, because he was too emotionally invested in you. He felt a high with you, that let me tell you does fade after years of marriage and children, that is life, but don’t even think that you know the wife and how she felt, how she watched her children and kept them safe while he played work husband to you. With no responsibilities but to place his attention on you.
    The impact this has on children, is unimaginable, it is damaging.
    There can be excuses as to why things happened, why they continued, but in all honesty they are just excuses, to help ease ones conscience.

    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 8:27 pm #

      He didn’t back away from his children because of me. He was a disinterested husband and father when I met him. So much so it shocked me. He didn’t come home distracted to her because he didn’t come him and hadn’t since a week after their wedding. 15 years of him being on the road every week all week. Things were so bad when I met him that when he was home on the weekend he would lie about how much work he had and go to the office to read the newspaper

      And no, it wasn’t pillow talk. Things were so bad that his good friends and his secretary and everyone talked about it. Everyone knew. In fact, many people believed she was having an affair as well. Their marriage was a shitshow.

      As you can imagine, it’s not terribly attractive to have a man have no relationship with his children or wife. I didn’t plan to go after him and never would have chosen someone with those characteristics. But we spent 14-15 hours a day together, ate every meal together, for weeks and years and I fell for him. It wasn’t planned. We both struggled wih our attraction to each other and the emotional connection we had. But to be honest I spent more time with him than his wife had in over a decade.

      I agree that if she knew the circumstances of why they are really still together she would be out of there. And I agree that at some point his resentment will rear its head or she will get sick of his moping around that he has to be home all the time now. I’m not sure if anyone who knows them thinks they will last. But they have three kids and he is finally connecting with them, so at the end of the day that has to be worth something and is certainly worth more than his relationship with me

      I’m not an idiot. He never lied to me because he never really talked about it. He didn’t talk about her to me and didn’t talk about me to her. What I know about their marriage was painfully obvious and well known. And also not an excuse for an affair. But their marital problems had been around for quite a long time, which is why I believe she never suspected an affair

      • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 9:16 pm #

        Ohc, now I have to wonder why he married his wife in the first place, if he made sure he wasn’t home from the week after they married. Yet as a wife I can tell you that if your husband is a workaholic, and has been from the time you met him and married him, you won’t expect that he is having an affair. For the, to have had three children, there has been some sort of intimacy, so it must not have been as bad as what people think. Children do make it harder on a couple once they arrive, all the time they used to spend with each other is then placed on that child or children, that’s just how it is, and sometimes people get stuck in a rut. Some men want the attention to themselves, and when it isn’t, they sulk. Instead of helping the wife, they decide they will stay at work, no screaming or crying children there.
        If you ended up with this man, what makes you think he would have been different, once a child came into the picture for the both of you?
        I have a bil, who has children to two different marriages, he became depressed and disinterested in his first wife, once the second child arrived. Then he married the next wife, they had a child, and now they are divorced, because he was happy not having to fight for the attention of the child, as he was happier that it was just the two of them. Now he thought the second wife was the best thing that ever happened to him, he never left her side until that baby arrived.
        He just preferred to be out and not at home.
        Responsibility was not his strong suit. Now he is depressed and alone.

        • OHC February 5, 2015 at 9:29 pm #

          Totally agree with this. I always felt she didn’t suspect me because his work had been the mistress for many years. Interestingly, he took a job at home to save the marriage and as soon as he did she started working for the first time–with hours before and after his work and on weekends. So they still don’t spend a lot of time together

          The thing is, that may be what both of them want and need. It’s not what I want. Neither one may want the other around a lot. In that case they are well suited. I am not that way at all

          I never was sure we would work if we were dating. Impossible to tell in some ways. Doesn’t mean I don’t love him, but I always had serious concerns

          • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 10:17 pm #

            I in many ways am glad that you can see that there are things that didn’t sit right with you. Of course it doesn’t mean the love was not there. I do think you made the right decision walking away, I know it has been tough on you. As they say, us women fall hard, but in many ways I think we are able to pick ourselves up a lot quicker too. Probably because of the nurturing side of us..

  19. Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 8:34 pm #

    I just wanted to add ohc, that no one can tell you how to act, how to behave, how to honour other people’s marriages, how to honour your own marriage in time. No one can tell you or even demand you stop contact with this mm in every way shape or form, because when it comes down to it, it is your life, your decision, you are old enough to make decisions for yourself, whether how right or how wrong they are. Yet I am sure that you were raised with morals, self respect and respect for others, to not steal, or harm another person, intestinal or not. Which is why you stopped, but it did take too long none the less.
    So please answer this question, if you were married, and your husband cheated on you, and the ow wouldn’t let go, or your husband wanted to keep the contact after the affair had ended, would you want him to stop? Would you want any part of him emotionally or sexually involved in someone else? When all you want is him to focus on you and your marriage.
    I’m just curious how you feel if the shoe was on the other foot. I do hope it doesn’t happen to you though, but as we have all learnt here, never say never.

    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 9:21 pm #

      Of course I’ve thought about that and wouldn’t want it to happen to me. But if anything I think I understand how affairs happen a lot more than I did before. There are certain actions his wife took that were completely understandable and that maybe I would have done in a previous life, but that effectively pushed him more and more towards me. I will never make those mistakes now.

      The one thing I would say is that sometimes the OP plays a role that helps keep the marriage intact longer. That’s the one thing I wonder about him trying to be more in touch lately. There is basically no way for us to have a full EA again–we live nowhere near each other, don’t work together, have very busy jobs, and he has tons of kid duties now. We couldn’t have an affair again if we wanted to. There are logistical boundaries that weren’t there before. But he may want me in his life still to fill some sort of emotional hole his wife isn’t filling. And part of me wants to say tough–leave her if she isn’t making you happy at this point. It was just the two of them with me out of the picture for over a year. If he still needs me and wants me in his life, maybe there is still a problem in their relationship (I’m not blaming her, btw, I just wonder if they ultimately grew too far apart over the years to bridge the distance)

      So I’m not an idiot. He is emotionally immature and doesn’t deal with conflict well. I can see why he would be tempted to take advantage of me and our history if he and his wife started having problems again. I’m very aware of that and have strict boundaries in place now

      I don’t know if that answers your question. It always felt different with us because of our work together and the sheer volume of time we spent together. Makes it much harder to say everything I did both professionally and personally for 4 years was a mistake. We did great work together, work I’m proud of. Was it great work because of our emotional relationship? How do you tease that out? I learned a ton from him as my boss. Do I discount everything he taught me? He was my life, day in and day out for many years, save Friday evening through Sunday evening.

      Sorry, I’m rambling, had a long day at work. I don’t know what my point is except it’s not so clear cut sometimes. It’s always clear the affair is wrong, but how you feel about it when it has passed and what you need to do as the OW to move forward and live your life from a positive place may not be what a BS wants from you. If I tortured myself every day with how much I sinned and how all those years were a complete waste and what a horrible person I was, I may not have recovered from my depression. Im sure there are many who believe it would be better if I had killed myself or lived in a permanent state of despair. But everyone needs to find those kernels of truth and positivity they can hold onto if they are going to move forward. It’s not just the BS that need that

      • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 10:04 pm #

        Ohc, I can understand what you are saying, and I am sure no one would want you to harm yourself, moving forward and past, past mistakes and errors of judgement is the best route, any of us can take.
        This is why affairs are so hard, because it is not just one person that gets hurt, everyone involved directly and indirectly get hurt.
        You are not a bad person, just like our husbands are not bad people, just bad choices.
        There are ow out there that just don’t care, who they hurt. Like my h ow.
        What I worry about with you is, you yourself are still recovering with what happened, and still appear to be struggling. Now I know how much you care for this man, but you need to care for yourself more.
        This man dragged you down, you are in long term therapy, trying to move past your affair. Yet if he remains in contact with you, I am worried that you will fall back into the affair. You may think your stronger, but you are still recovering, you are not ready. If this man has any chance of keeping his marriage together, then he needs to let go of you completely. If you have any chance of recovering from what sent you into a depression, then you need to keep clear of the temptation, for your own health.
        This is what worries me, because with all good intentions that you have, you just are not ready, you need more than one year, you need many more years to find yourself again, and to be strong. I fear for you, that you will fall back into his arms, because it just feels right, it feels better.
        I’m so sorry ohc, but you do not deserve to be stuck, you have many years ahead of you to find someone that truly deserves you and you truly deserve him, you deserve to have a family, and to be completely happy.
        Please take advantage of the therapy you are recieving, and don’t let him drag you down, where you remain stuck.
        Life is truly too short. Find a man that has no baggage, let this man sweep you off your feet, and show you off to the world as his one and only love. Don’t come second to anyone.
        How has your dating been going? How is this man you are seeing? If you truly like this man, give him a chance and throw yourself in completely, and you just never know. Maybe he will be the one that does the sweeping you off of your feet, and brings you that undying love that we all deserve.
        We all make mistakes ohc, we learn from them and become stronger, more knowledgable, more wiser. It can make us into a better person.
        I want you to see the joy of marrying the person you love, having a child with that person, and sharing your life with him. It is beautiful, as long as it is done the right way, two single people. The other is just destructive to all involved.
        One thing I am happy with, for you, is that you are dating again. Keep moving forward and don’t look back. This is your chance to find the love you deserve.
        You really do need to look after yourself. You need to be strong and happy again.

        I will say that you have given much to think about, so whether you believe it or not, it does help reading what you say, I just hope it helps you too, when you get things off of your chest.
        Of course not everyone will share the same views as you, or even me for that matter, but we are all here trying to get through a difficult stage of our lives.
        Look after yourself

        • OHC February 5, 2015 at 10:19 pm #

          This is so kind, thank you. You made me cry a little

          I agree I’m still at risk. That’s why I came back to the blogs and am keeping a check on myself. I don’t trust our relationship yet as a friendship, but I’m giving it a chance for now

          I haven’t found someone special yet. But I’m going on blind dates set up by friends and doing some internet dating. I’m definitely open to it in a way I wasn’t before. I even kissed someone recently, which sounds small but was big for me. I’m optimistic now that I have finally made right some of the really bad decisions I made in the wake of my EA ending, namely where I am living and my job. Changed both again last month. And I’m excited for the dates and for the possibity of happiness. Actually, I am happy for the first time in a long time and am excited for the possibility of even more

          I will get there, it’s a process but I’m getting closer every day.

          Again, thank you for being so kind. For some reason, I really needed this tonight and I’m not sure why. Thank you

          • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 10:42 pm #

            Ohc, I worry that you are making a is take keeping the contact open. Due to the reason, that your feelings are still very much there for him. He knows it, I am sure of that.
            You need to be able to move with your life, without the need to hear his voice. You need to be able to move in into a new relationship that has every chance to make it, because you are completely in it. You deserve that and so does the man you begin to fall for.
            I worry if you keep the contact open, that you won’t move forward, and every time you hear from him, it will continue to cause you heartache and pain.
            You won’t be able to move forward if he is dangling himself in front of you, like a drug being dangled in front of an addict. It will keep dragging them back in.
            So please think about what I have said to you, focus on dating, like you have been, and even if you have to kiss a few frogs before that prince comes along then it will be worth it in the end.
            Good on you for getting back out there, have fun and enjoy the attention.

            • OHC February 5, 2015 at 11:06 pm #

              Thanks. To be fair, his emotions are out there sometimes too. But that just makes it all the more unstable

              If I’m honest, I’m hopeful that being back in touch takes out some of the drama. For as long as we weren’t talking to each other, there was a lot of heightened awareness. I still work with many of his friends and it came up a lot. And contrary to what people think, no one lost interest in the drama around us. Now that I can say, yep, talked to him last week, he’s fine, the attention goes away. It also becomes less dramatic for us

              So my hope is it fades away even more, losing the allure of what happens when you aren’t allowed to talk to someone. I don’t know if that makes sense. But I’m aware it might flip the other way, that’s why I’m vigilant

              And yes, it’s nice to go out on dates and even be optimistic again that I can find love. It’s been a long time since I’ve felt that way

      • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 10:20 pm #

        So now you move from not only refusing to take responsibility for something that was completely and totally wrong in every way to what? Being the one who is holding his marriage together?

        Ladies and gentlemen, I give you affair partner delusion at it’s finest.

      • exercisegrace February 5, 2015 at 10:32 pm #

        There isn’t anyone on this planet that is ever worth killing yourself over or even hurting yourself. I don’t believe that anyone on this board would believe it was better if you had killed yourself.

        Learn from your mistakes. Own them and let them make you a better, stronger person. Move on and live your life.

  20. gizfield February 5, 2015 at 9:55 pm #

    Ohc, I know you say that you and your affair partner never talked about his marriage, but WHY did these two people get married in the first place? Was she pregnant? You say he paid her no attention from week one, yet they have been together for 15 years?

    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 10:05 pm #

      She definitely wasn’t pregnant. Or I guess if she was she didn’t have that baby.

      Honestly have no clue, don’t know very much about how they met or anything. And I’ve never met her so don’t have clues from that side. They have extremely different family and educational backgrounds. But both are attractive and very athletic. He insinuated once to an audience of 50 (not just me!) that he proposed because she stuck around even when he told her he wasn’t sure he loved her. He claimed when she was still there two years later he thought he should go ahead and marry her

      Honestly, though, who knows if that is true. Jerk comment to make, one way or the other.

      • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm #

        Ohc, gee it definately was a jerk comment he made, and to broadcast it to 50 people as if she was a sorry case, because she still wanted him, so ohh I will marry her then. No wonder everyone had a view about how his relationship was with his wife. If he didn’t want her he should never have married her, just because she was there.
        In all honesty I’m glad you have removed yourself from that situation. You are so much better off.

  21. gizfield February 5, 2015 at 10:05 pm #

    This is off the topic, but I am reading the sweetest book. It is called Falling in Love For Life by Barbara “Cutie” Cooper (lol). It’s the story of a couple who were married for 73 !! years, until his death a few years ago. It was $1.99 on the Kindle yesterday but it may have gone up since then.

  22. gizfield February 5, 2015 at 10:11 pm #

    Ok, I’m assuming that they had some sort of relationship at some point then and it just disappeared as soon as they got married. Fair enough, I guess. I asked because most people who marry someone they don’t love, it’s because of a pregnancy.

    • OHC February 5, 2015 at 10:33 pm #

      Who knows. I think there are a lot of complicating factors and even really good marriages were put under a lot of stress by the working norms of my last company. Very high divorce rate.

      • Strengthrequired February 5, 2015 at 10:46 pm #

        Ohc, married couples need time with each other to nurture their relationship. If couples don’t get that, then one or both can become resentful, and not feel important to the other. Having demanding work, can make matters worse. It definitely doesn’t help the marriage.
        Yet so many people now go into divorce too quickly, nowadays. Without trying to make the marriage work, or even compromising time spent with each other.

        • OHC February 5, 2015 at 11:08 pm #

          I agree. One of my good friends from my former company had a great marriage. Lately it’s really been slipping because they aren’t spending time together. I was shocked, they were one of the strong ones. Just a reminder that marriage requires constant upkeep and investment in each other

  23. AtIt February 16, 2015 at 12:57 pm #

    OHC, I believe you stated your case well and the dangers of generalizing. As a CS who ended my affair over a year ago, I can look back with the advantage of hindsight to see feelings for what they were. If a fog existed, it certainly has lifted and I can say without doubt that I loved, and still love my AP. The affair was never discovered but eventually the guilt of hurting 2 people who meant so much to me caused me to end my selfishness. The reasons I chose to stay were numerous but the choice to let her go was excruciating and many times I reconsidered. Even after 20 plus years of marriage, this situation makes one take a second look at all aspects of their life. I’ve made my decision, I’ll live with it, and I’ll accept the sense of loss with a woman I grew to love, much like I grew to love the woman I married so many years ago.

    • Strengthrequired February 16, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

      Atit, so maybe you should be man enough to tell your wife how unfaithful you were, and let her decide whether she likes the idea of you harbouring love feelings for your ow. Let her decide whether she feels your worth the effort to keep your marriage together. Your wife deserves to know why you were absent in your marriage, why you were emotionally abscent to her. Let her decide if she is willing to stay with you, while you still love your ap.

      • Strengthrequired February 16, 2015 at 7:06 pm #

        Sorry if I sound harsh, but I would like to know how you would feel if your wife was the one keeping such a secret from you? I a, sure you would want to know what you have been exposed to unwillingly.

        • Strengthrequired February 16, 2015 at 7:41 pm #

          i am happy to hear however that you did end things with the ow, I just hope you can move on without her and are able to focus completely on your wife and children, without being at risk at falling back into the affair with her.

    • Blue February 16, 2015 at 11:37 pm #

      AtIt: You must feel very powerful over your wife. You have this ‘dirty little secret’ you call ‘love’. Real love doesn’t have to hide, unless it’s love from a coward- you should look that word up.

    • exercisegrace February 17, 2015 at 9:58 am #

      AtIt, your wife deserves more than you can give her. Do you really think it is fair for her to live without the kind of love she deserves? A man who loves her with his whole heart? I would never stay with my husband if I thought for one minute his attitude was that of a martyr who has decided to “live with it” and “accept his sense of loss” over his whore. It sounds like you have stayed in your marriage with the same type of self-serving attitude that allowed you to cheat.

      • OHC February 17, 2015 at 10:43 am #

        Why does everyone assume his wife doesn’t know he had an affair? That was true in my case, but AtIt hasn’t said one way or another

        The reactions you all have had still goes back over and over to this belief that real love can’t exist between two APs and that those two people can’t at the same time decide to do the right thing, which is end their relationship and honor the commitments in their life. That commitment to his wife is based on love for her, I’m sure. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t very much in love with his AP.

        I have brought this up multiple times, maybe it’s something you simply can’t understand unless you have been in affair yourself. You can be very much in love with your AP and give them up to do the right thing. there are many reasons people will decide to stay with their spouse, of which being “more” in love with the BS is just one of many possible reasons.

        I think most BS see it as a competition, which it frankly isn’t. I woukd never presume to say whether my AP was more in love with me than with his wife. I think it’s very possible he was. But it doesn’t matter, the right thing to do was for us to end things and him to try to make it work with his wife. When kids are involved, if you can make it work you should. Even if there is someone else you may have been more in love with. Anyone can survive a broken heart, it’s harder to deal with a broken life and broken kids

        • gizfield February 17, 2015 at 12:00 pm #

          He said in his original comment “the affair was never discovered”.

          • OHC February 17, 2015 at 12:10 pm #

            Ah, sorry, didn’t see that. Doesn’t change the rest of my comment…

  24. Beckyb2 February 17, 2015 at 10:53 am #

    Seriously if you believe love has any part of cheating it is SELFISH not love. The part some cheaters never seem to get is this justifying joining anyone in abusing themselves by settling for less than a real honest open life and joining anyone in abusing another is SICK not love . Cheaters are abusers whether they ever see themselves through the eyes of the ones they abused doesn’t change what they CHOSE to be which is less than they were before they chose to abuse the one who loved them .

    • OHC February 17, 2015 at 11:17 am #

      I understand that is the view of the BS, but it’s not the view of those who have had an affair and been in love (which isn’t true in all affairs by any stretch, but is true in some situations.). It’s not even true from a therapist standpoint. That’s one of those dirty secrets a lot of BS don’t realize–the therapists tell the OW something different than they tell you. Likewise the message to the CS might be different if you aren’t there

      its up to you whether you believe this is helpful information or not. But just because you believe what you believe doesn’t necessarily make it true.

    • exercisegrace February 17, 2015 at 2:06 pm #

      Becky, cheaters have to convince themselves it is real love in order to carry on their filthy behavior. No one sets out to destroy their family and hurt their children. So if they can convince themselves that they have found “love”, it somehow justifies what they are doing in their mind. They may very well experience it as “love” at the time. BUT. It is not mature love. Mature love takes time to develop. Mature love doesn’t wish to harm. Mature love doesn’t want to take the person they love and turn them into a liar and a deceiver. Mature love doesn’t hurt innocent children. This list could go on and on.

      Affair love is all about the infatuation. It is selfish, self-serving, and ONLY cares about the wants and needs of the two people IN the affair. If that is REAL love, well….NO thanks! Mature love on the other hand, takes time to develop. It goes FAR beyond the initial butterflies and romance. It matures and deepens over time. It encompasses not just the “fun” parts of the relationship, but the harder ones. It grows as it encompasses friends, and family. It is lived in the pure light of day. Partners experience REAL daily living together. They grow and mature as they deal with bills, elderly parents, children, chores, and hard times. Mature love is beautiful and sacrificial. It has depth. It creates a legacy. If you have mature love, you don’t let it go. That’s why husbands stay. My own husband told me it shook him to the core when he realized how much I loved him to fight for him and help him out of his depression. How much I sacrificed for him. He realized his AP was only interested in herself. She even told him NOT to get help for his depression, even when he was expressing suicidal thoughts. She was afraid that once he dealt with the depression, he would see the affair for what it really was and leave. And that’s exactly what happened.

      The OW do their best to declare it “true love”, because if it isn’t, then they are just gutter sluts who whored themselves out for married men who dumped them in end. As for ME? I want to always have MATURE love. I get the romance and fun, along with all the other things that make life worth living. I don’t have to live as a second class citizen, begging for scraps. I am the one he wants to wear his ring, carry his name, have his children, and be his life-long partner. I am the one he wants to wake up with each morning and fall asleep talking to at night.

      Affair love always ends. The internet is full of OW bemoaning how quickly and easily the married man dropped them and never looked back. So if they want to call that “real love”? I pity them, their absent morals and their low, low self-esteem.

      • OHC February 17, 2015 at 2:25 pm #

        Likewise the BS has to convince themselves that there is no way affair love is real. The truth is likely in between. Sometimes there is real love and sometimes there is not. Sometimes husbands stay because they are horrified at the thought they might lose their wives and sometimes they stay because they are doing it for their kids or for financial reasons

        I realize you believe differently, but it doesn’t mean you are right. Anytime someone says something is ALWAYS one way, they are usually reacting emotionally and not logically. There is simply no way for you to know which of these relationships involve real love and which don’t. Which of these marriage were based on real love to begin with. Which of these marriages have “mature love” that is rewarding. I know plenty if people who have not had affairs in which “mature love” is anything but great. Every relationship, marriage, and affair is different.

        Personally, I’d rather be in my situation than in my AP’s wife’s positiin. She has a marriage I don’t envy at all. I was able to learn a lot about how marriages can go wrong, how affairs can happen, and as someone older think about what a life partner should look like for me now, which probably would have been really different than my view when I was 25. I have different needs now. I doubt if I had married my long term boyfriend at that time that we would still be married now.

        I would much rather be a single person who is happy and open to a new relationship than married with children in a bad relationship and feel trapped

        This whole concept of the greatness of mature love is if you are in a relationship where that happens. I have a ton of friends getting divorced where affairs aren’t involved. Mature love didn’t work out for them

        It’s great that you feel so fulfilled in your marriage despite your husbands affair. But you make a lot of assumptions abiut what other marriages look like when you assume that relationship is better than any other relationship an individual can have

        And just to be clear, none of this an excuse for an affair. I’m just saying some people choose to save an ok marriage and end a meaningful affair. Your husband sounds like he was different

        • exercisegrace February 17, 2015 at 2:57 pm #

          I don’t disagree that every relationship is different. I just don’t think there is mature love in an affair, because the conditions under which mature love grows are not there. Mature love has a purity at it’s heart that is absent when a relationship is based on selfishness, lies and deceit. Mature love grows and matures as the couple grows and matures.

          I don’t make assumptions about other marriages as a whole. But I would rather be married, then be somebody’s side piece. I would rather be able to live with myself, sleep at night, and know that I have integrity. But I am also strong enough that I could be fine on my own if he had not been remorseful and willing to do the hard work of rebuilding from his mistake. Being a mistress would feel too degrading to me. I am worth more than that.

          • OHC February 17, 2015 at 8:19 pm #

            Well, I am no one’s side piece and haven’t been for 18 months. Even then, his wife was more the side piece than I was for many years. But ultimately, I am wiser for my experience and feel far better off being single and free and optimistic than any of my friends in bad marriages or recovering from divorces right now. I would always, always prefer to provide for myself and be single than in be in a bad relationship. Some people get more security from being married.

            • Exercise grace February 18, 2015 at 10:00 am #

              Well there is something we can whole-heartedly agree on. I would never want to stay in a bad relationship either. Before I had kids, I held an executive level position with a major health care company. I have the ability to provide for myself if that’s what I ever wanted to do. Is there security in marriage? Yes, of course. I love going through life with my husband as my partner and having that support. I love raising our kids together and building a legacy that will last long after we are gone. Through watching us struggle, they have learned some amazing lessons about grace, love and forgiveness. They have learned what sacrificial love is by watching me struggle but succeed. They also saw what selfish love is by watching their father and his affair partner. They know what is true. What lasts. They know what God blesses and that he condemns sin. They know what His mercy looks like. I am at peace with my choices, perhaps because I have always had more than one option.

  25. gizfield February 17, 2015 at 12:48 pm #

    The state I live in is under a State of Emergency due to the winter storms. I’m not used to staying home much but this is my second day off in a row. I took off yesterday to spend time with my daughter since she was off school. We didn’t get to do the things we planned though. Listening to tree branches falling in the yard isn’t as much fun as going to the mall and going to the game center/restaurant there. At any rate, I’m thankful we are fine and hope everyone else is too, especially those people in the northeast.

    I know that a lot of Betrayed Spouses are very interested in the Other Woman, and the thought processes that go along with being a Cheater. I have read some writing by OW myself, possibly as a way of understanding some things I have done in the past. I read a few Other Woman blogs and didn’t really find them helpful, mostly because they glorify the Affair Relationship without offering much insight.

    I actually prefer getting my Other Woman information from actual real life adultery cases because you get more of the true story and how it plays out in real life.

    To that end, I am going to “recommend” a book written by real life adulterer Rielle Hunter. She is the person who had an affair with presidential candidate John Edwards, complete with having an illegitimate child with him. The book is entitled “In Hindsight, What Really Happened: John Edwards, My Daughter, and Me.” It is $3.03 on the Amazon Kindle. Be careful, because the original version is $9.99 and titled “What Really Happened: John Edwards, Our Daughter, and Me.” The Hindsight version was Ms. Hunter’s attempt at an apology after the original book presented her in a less than favorable light. She has added Notes to the original manuscript that are meant to make her appear less callous, I guess. It’s poorly written (1.5 stars) but it is an absolutely amazing look into the brain of a cheater. It is difficult to believe this was written by a woman in her forties, and not a star struck teenage girl. Every attitude you see in many cheaters is in the book, to the nth degree. She honestly thinks she is JE saviour, she was a Life Coach or something, you know. Even after the woman is Dead, Rielle cannot stop herself from trying to massacre the wife in this story, Elizabeth Edwards.

    I don’t like the fact that reading this book benefits Rielle Hunter but it is only $3.03 so I figured what the hell, lol. If you aren’t comfortable with reading about OW I would avoid this. But if you are past that stage in your journey, it’s a real education. I consider it to be a Masterpiece of Delusion. The horse faced heifer is a supreme narcissist, with absolutely no regard for anyone except herself. She saw the money train on a track right in front of her and just couldn’t let it go by without jumping on. If any of you do decide to read this, I’d love to know what you think.

    • Strengthrequired February 17, 2015 at 3:52 pm #

      Giz, take care, be safe..

      • gizfield February 17, 2015 at 5:07 pm #

        Thanks, Strength! Things are much better here today. I’m just hanging around sewing badges and patches on my daughter’s Girl Scout uniform sash. I ironed them on before, and they all fell off. You take care, too!

        • Strengthrequired February 17, 2015 at 5:31 pm #

          Thanks giz, I’m here contemplating getting back into my course, after having a break since Christmas. Lol.

          • gizfield February 17, 2015 at 5:48 pm #

            You should, Strength. You are such a sweet person. I would love to see you focus on yourself for a bit, instead of your husband and Cousin Whore (I mean Cousin It…)

            • Strengthrequired February 17, 2015 at 7:20 pm #

              Giz, you are too kind, lol. Actually, you know what it is? I look at everything I have to do of a day, and it always end up last on the list. Probably because it is for me. I just caught up on the business bookwork, then I have all the kids, and sometimes I feel like there is not enough time in the day.
              Can you believe I have just over a year left to finish it. I think maybe I took it on too soon, especially since it took a while to get my head in a better place.
              you are right though, I do need to focus on me for a change.
              Yet it is hard when I have so many to watch over.
              I hope the worst is over for you there,
              You know giz, my youngest missed a lot of her dad, when he was mixed up with his it, and it makes me so happy for her as well as him that they have become closer. She hugs into her daddy, snuggles into him so tightly, he melts into her. I know he has to feel so terrible about missing any part of her young life, because of it. I just feel so relieved that my little one gets her daddy now, and I see her wanting him and is used to him now, instead of wanting me all the time, because my little girl should never have missed out on her daddy.
              I know for a fact my h didn’t stay for his kids, he stayed with us because we are where he wants to be, it had nothing to do with financial reasons either, as some ow like to believe. It was the love for us, his wife and kids that had him stay. If he truly loved the ow, he would have left and not looked back. nothing would have stopped him.

              Ohc, my h was very depressed while with his ow, he was getting worse, she dragged him down, and it was because I was here standing by him, that he was able to get better. He turned to alcohol and smoking as well as to his ow, in the hopes to make himself feel better, but he just became sicker. He would jump in his sleep, constantly all night long. We even separated for a month, which did not help him. When he moved back he began slowly to recover, it took well over a year, yet that day he moved back, was the start. He would even tell you that he was more relaxed and comfortable, being back home, than what he was at anytime with the ow. He also never stayed at the ow place during our break apart, he stayed with his sister.
              His sister even now tells me how much better he looked when he returned home to me. How worried she was about him, because he looked so sick.
              She looks at him now and cannot believe he went downhill so fast back then, because now he is back to himself. She is thankful to me for standing by him, and helping him through his depression, because she too worries about where he would have been if I didnt.
              Yet she or him, never needed to thank me, because when you love someone, and you know who they really are, and let me tell you living with him for more than two decades, you do know who the real person is, you don’t turn your back on them, you help them. I would never have been able to look my children in the face again, if I did not help their dad, if I had turned my back on him and let him drown in his sorrows and bad choices.
              So not all ch love their ap, they may think they are, but as time moves forward their eyes open, they see the true person, the true circumstances to how they fell so easily into an affair with someone they never would have. Like my husband felt responsible for his ow, because she blamed him for her bad marriage. That he wasn’t there for her, yet he was not the only cousin around her, yet she blamed him, the one that she hadn’t seen for almost two decades. He told me how she was very good at making him believe it was his fault. Yet he sees now how wrong she was to put that on him, how it was not his fault at all. He sees the love he thought he had for her, was nothing but feeling sorry, and him feeling guilty for what she told him she went though with her h, because he had his own life and wasn’t there for her.
              He knows she was selfish, and he knows that if someone loves you, they are not going to blame you for their life, and make you feel guilty when they weren’t even around him at the time.
              One thing is for sure, he now knows he can’t trust her, and he wouldn’t be so willing to help her again.

              • Strengthrequired February 17, 2015 at 7:49 pm #

                Ohc, my h ow loved telling him how she knew he was only staying with me because of the kids, even though he told her he wasn’t. Whatever made her feel better about clinging to a mm. I have news for her though, as I have told her oreviously. No my h did not stay because of the kids.

                • OHC February 17, 2015 at 8:13 pm #

                  I never told him anything about why he was staying. I said he should fight for his marriage and his family. Fight for her

                  I just don’t believe, for a variety of reasons, that true love was the reason he stayed. I also don’t think he stayed for the kids, although I have many make friends who have stayed in bad marriages for years for that reason. I have a pretty good grasp of why he stayed, actually, and it was for far more selfish reasons. And don’t forget, I pushed him to stay. It’s a very different situation

                  For the record, no one who knows them thinks they stayed together out of true love. As I’ve said, their marriage remains a topic of gossip among mutual friends.

              • Exercise grace February 18, 2015 at 10:06 am #

                SR, how bizarre! My husband jumped in his sleep too. He did these whole-body jerks that would wake us both up. Eventually it began to happen when he was awake. He would just be sitting there and suddenly just flail or jerk. The affair nearly ruined his health. His depression didn’t turn around until he ended it, and I could list a number of other physical ailments he had that disappeared when he ditched the whore.

                • Strengthrequired February 18, 2015 at 5:23 pm #

                  Eg, my h although had started to improve the more he was with me, he didn’t start to improve a lot more until after he ended his affair, yet also because we weren’t together properly until late last year when we moved back to our home, he still had a way to go. I have seen such a difference with him, yet hr too still has ailments that he is still dealing with. Which started during his affair.
                  Yet mentally, he is so much better. The jumping in his sleep was constant, at the beginning, and lessened as time went on. He doesn’t anymore, yet he never did before the affair either.
                  Makes you wonder why they let these women do that to them.

  26. Beckyb2 February 17, 2015 at 1:00 pm #

    The twisted words and sick actions cheaters call love shows how little they know what love really is. Sick people looking for other sick people to make them feel less sick is still sick. Lying cheating escaping hiding abusing are not the highlights of love they are the sickness that comes with being less than a loving person.

    • OHC February 17, 2015 at 1:15 pm #

      This is your experience and view and that is valid for you. It’s not necessarily valid for other people’s experiences.

  27. Strengthrequired February 17, 2015 at 5:29 pm #

    Ohc, if it is true love, nothing will keep an pa and a mm apart, not the wife and not the children. They would be two grown people, that know exactly what they want.
    Yes there may be love feelings, but maybe not the type of love feelings that keep a couple together. im sorry if that offends.

    • OHC February 17, 2015 at 8:07 pm #

      I don’t agree. I was madly in love with him and pushed him away because I wanted him to do the right thing. I knew he needed to try and he knew it as well. I didnt want to be with a man who wouldn’t try to save his family. that doesn’t mean it wasn’t painful when he went along with it and saved his marriage. But it was the right thing to do.

      I had two therapists over this time (I moved in the middle.). Both thought I should have been honest with him and told him I was in love and wanted to be with him. He asked me several times point blank and I said I loved him, I had feelings for him, but I wasn’t sure if I was in love and I thought he should save his marriage. I lied. because it wasn’t the right thing to do to tell him to leave his family

      Is there part of me that wishes he had chased me anyway? Sure, of course. Does it mean he didn’t really love me? Maybe. But I didn’t want a man who abandoned his family. I also didn’t want him to have a lifetime of guilt over leaving his family.

      In my view, real love in an affair means recognizing what you want for the other person and being willing to give them up. Manipulating someone into screwing up their life isn’t the right course

      He and I are still young. We are both early 40s. It seems old, by in reality it isnt. We are halfway through our lives. We are on different paths. I may marry or not. He may stay married or not. In ten years we could both be single. If we are, we will find each other. That’s how sure I am of how much we loved each other. But I am also wise enough at 40 and single to know you can love fully and lose that person and that’s the end of story. When you are 25 you don’t think that’s possible. I know it is.

      I’m not sure if that makes sense. But I’ve run into enough folks who are like me–one time affair, either AP or CS, who believe it’s love even years out. And it makes sense to us. So this may be where I say this is an experience you can’t fully understand, the same way I can’t fully understand the BS experience. I can just tell you it’s true. That’s all

      • Strengthrequired February 17, 2015 at 8:50 pm #

        Ohc, I’m sorry, but I do have a hard time understanding why you would put yourself into a situation where you fell for a mm. When you know, there will always be someone that gets hurt.
        I told my h on many occasions to go be with the ow, if that was what he truly wanted, he stopped me also on many occasions from leaving him. He wanted me to not let go of him. Now he could have easily have walked away, many husbands do. Now staying in an unhappy marriage for the children, does not help the children. Children do not want to see their parents miserable, they want them happy. If their parents are happy, they are happy. The last thing I want us a husband that doesn’t really want to be there.
        Yet my point to you was, in my case my h did not love his Ap, he wanted his family not her, and I believe most of us here also will look at the facts in our marriages, the reasons for the affairs our husbands had, and can tell you that their husbands stay because they love their wives and know where they want to be, and it doesn’t have anything to do with the ow, because they look at the ow as a down point in that time, and hold no more feelings for her.
        If they did, none of us would stay, or would eventually give up trying to save our marriages, because we deserve to be happy too, and who are we to hold our husbands back from their one true love.
        So although I agree with you that not all affair partners aren’t loved, not all are either. Not all marriages are bad, and not all wives are bad, yes people fall into situations that they are unable to control. Yet what I don’t understand is why people wait until it is too late to grow a conscience. Why wait until people get hurt. What happened to don’t do something to someone, you wouldn’t want done to you?

        • OHC February 17, 2015 at 9:09 pm #

          I actually do understand more than you’d think. And I didn’t choose my situation. He was my boss. So it got very complicated, as you can imagine. I’m not a secretary, I’m a professional, an executive actually, so career and mentors and bosses aren’t things you can change easily

          In a normal situation, where I could have walked away, I probably would have. But I thought it was all in my head until it was too late

          I definitely agree that not all, in fact probably most affairs don’t involve love. But I think a sizable minority do. And by no means are all these marriages bad. But some are. I try to stay focused on my experience, that’s all I know. And that experience was they had a damaged marriage when I met him, he was my boss so I was somewhat captive, as was he, we truly loved each other and still do, but it was the right decision for a variety of reasons that he try to save his marriage. And he succeeded. And we both suffered from the separation but moved on and healed and still care about each other. He wants me to be happy and I want him to be happy.

          But I fully accept that others have had different experiences. I only insist that they recognize that their situation is not universal. And that while it may different from mine, it doesn’t mean I am wrong about my experience or that others are wrong about their experience. And let’s face it, therapists tell certain stories to some parties and other stories to others. Let’s all think independently and not get brainwashed but what “experts” say

          For your final question, all I can say is that its more confusing than you’d expect to be involved in an affair, or an EA at least. You don’t always know what’s going on or are really aware of pain you might be causing. I wasn’t until his wife told him she didn’t love him anymore and wanted a divorce. And even then, he insisted it had nothing to do with me. It’s not done with as much forethought or malice as you might imagine. That’s all I can say

  28. Beckyb2 February 17, 2015 at 8:23 pm #

    OHC reality based you allowed a person to devalue you to debase you to abuse you and to convince you to join in abusing another person. Hmm reality bites and you have been bitten by the bug of delusional thinking. Sorry but your description is as far from love as a horses ass is from its mouth.

    • OHC February 17, 2015 at 8:28 pm #

      Sorry you feel that way but I wish you well. We will never agree, so let’s just agree to disagree

      • Strengthrequired February 17, 2015 at 8:58 pm #

        Ohc, I am glad though that you see yourself as worthy of a much deeper love than what your ap was able to give you, and you stepping back, I believe is the best decision you made, even if you don’t see it right now.
        You don’t need a man, that is willing to share himself, and that is unable to make a decision. You need a honest man in your life, one that can put a complete effort and focus on you, not someone that has another life outside of you.

        • OHC February 17, 2015 at 9:18 pm #

          Yes, my biggest issue with my AP is that he never made an active decision. He let circumstances in life determine what he did. If a major event had gone a different way, he was fully prepared to get a divorce and was fairly unemotional about it. And in those circumstances we never would have separated. I would have been the “choice.” But events went differently and he decided divorce wasn’t ok. It was never about which woman he loved or deciding what he really wanted. I ultimately took the choice away from him, but he didn’t fight for me, he just said ok, I guess I should try to save my marriage then

          I don’t doubt this was the right choice. I hope that’s clear. I just don’t dislike him or feel like my feelings were fake. It’s been 18 months since we separated. I know the feelings were real on both side, I still love him. But I’m much happier being out of what was a prison, really. It’s better it’s over. But it doesn’t mean we didn’t love each other

  29. SoManyTears February 18, 2015 at 10:56 am #

    I have agonized over whether or not my CH has real live for the OW. Since I discovered the affair, that lasted 15 months, I’ve uncovered many things. For one, the OW has been the OW for 40 years. My CH and I have only been married for 11 years. He cheated on his first wife 39 years ago with her and many of his other relationships over the years. Is that real love? Sadly, she thinks so. He does not. To him, she’s someone he can easily use over and over again. She lets him. She gets power thinking she has some kind if hold on him because he keeps coming back. He’s had many opportunities to marry her or have a public relationship with her, but won’t. Why not? Because she’s only a nasty little secret. My CH keeps her playing the game by telling her all the things she wants to hear. He tells her he loves her and things just never seem to work out for them to be together. She eats it up. She pines away thinking they’ve always belonged together. She posted, on her Facebook, that the worst kind of love is when you love them, they still want you, but circumstances won’t let you be together. She has recently been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer of the spine. So sad. If my CH REALLY loved her, he would leave to be at her side. He will not. Think she realizes it’s all just been a game yet? No. She’ll go to her grave believing they had a great love. I’m ashamed of my CH’s actions. I could never do such a thing to another human being. I have no pity for the OW, however, because she allowed it. At one point, others in her circle, knew what was going on between my CH and her. She told them, “No big deal, this won’t hurt me…this will only hurt her and him” (meaning me and my CH). She was right. Both my CH and I completely agree that he wouldn’t have done this with anyone else but her. She was like a bad habit. He has to live with his bad choices. She is dying with hers. Real love is two sided NOT one sided. Yes, she truely loves him, but it’s only an illusion…a fantasy, because he doesn’t really love her back.

    • Strengthrequired February 18, 2015 at 5:30 pm #

      Soma years, I was going to say it doesn’t sound like your h loves her, she was just easy for him to have. If he loved her, he would have married her and not marry someone else. That is not circumstances that have kept them apart, it is him not thinking she is worth marrying.

  30. gizfield February 18, 2015 at 10:29 pm #

    So Many Tears. 40 years is a long time, for sure. I read an article the other day where a married man had a 30 year long affair with a single woman, til his wife died. Then he wanted to marry her. They met when she was in college I think, and he 20 years older. She is now in her fifties, and he is in his 70s. I guess this guy had his cake and ate it too.

    Unfortunately, lots of people think cheaters want either their spouse or the AP but what they actually want is both. You have to be careful, because some cheaters will leave you on the string as long as you let them. I’m so thankful that I saw the truth about my relationship with my AP all those years ago. Notice I don’t say I saw the truth about Him, cause I was at fault as well. If I hadn’t seen the truth, I might be just like your husband’s AP, thinking we had some romantic special star crossed love when we actually had nothing. I imagine if I’d stayed with the plan, we could probably still be “together”. His cousin works where I do. I bet if I told his cousin I wanted to see him, we could be right back where we were by tomorrow, lol. Cause he’s just like that. No loyalty to anyone. Likes a lot of women on the string. Thank God I’m past that and have been for decades.

  31. SoManyTears February 19, 2015 at 8:05 am #

    Gizfield, my CH told the OW, if I should die, he’d want to be with her, because she’s a “good woman”.

  32. antiskank February 19, 2015 at 6:35 pm #

    SoManyTears, interesting that your husband said he’d want to be with her if you died. That must hurt; I know how hurt I was by that kind of careless statement. A few similarities- we have been married for 40 years also, getting married before even finishing high school. No, I wasn’t pregnant!

    Before I first found out about my CH’s EA, he had a coworker whose wife was ill with cancer and was likely going to die in the next year or so. My CH used this as an excuse for his affair!! After all, if something were to happen to me such as if I died, he needed to have someone ready to take my place. So basically, he imagined me dead so that he could have his skanky AP replace me and he could live happily ever after!! How’s that for cold and callous? This made perfect sense to him.
    At the time, he was sure he was madly in love for the first time in his life. Now he is sure that it was just the excitement and good feelings that he got from having an admirer boosting his ego and keeping it a secret from all. I don’t think he has ever grown up, it’s like dealing with a twelve year old that has a crush on his teacher or has just found his first Penthouse magazine. Insanity? Maybe!

  33. Sarah P. February 20, 2015 at 5:09 pm #

    Hello All,
    Wanted to chime in since I never had a moment to answer comments on this post I wrote.

    Wanted to provide 3 different affair stories from my own extended family and their outcomes. Also wanted to present some of the solid psychosocial research on the topic of affairs. This is meant as more of a FYI so take it as you will.

    Wanted to first talk about my great aunt sense something that so many tears wrote triggered this family factoid.

    So my great aunt had an affair with a restaurant owner in a very small town from the time she was a late teen. It was about 15 years older than her. She saw him through three marriages and three divorces and none of them were to her. Objectively speaking she was an attractive woman. She used to cry every night on my grandmother shoulder because even though he would leave one of his wives he would never marry her. It was always somebody else. Eventually he became very sick and frail and at that point he moved in with her. She had the wonderful opportunity (sarcasm) to take care of him with her savings until he died. She got nothing financially or otherwise. After that she converted to being a Jehovah’s Witness and she is in her 90s and suffers from all kinds of ailments as well as severe panic attacks. My grandmother and my grandfather, on the other hand, have been married for almost 70 years.

    Second story: some of you have heard this before so I apologize for repeating myself. My aunt (biological relative), who is a beautiful, accomplished attorney, was married to a man who was also an attorney. He suffered from bipolar disorder, which was diagnosed, but which he refused to have treated. He was cheating with a very ugly prostitute who also got him hooked on cocaine. He was well-educated and from a wealthy family. His dad however died early of alcoholism. my aunt sent him to rehab and also to therapy. He refused to stop cocaine and got to the point where he brought the other woman into their house and announced she would be moving in and they would be having a threesome. At that point my aunt loaded up my cousin in the car and disappear to a friends house while serving divorce papers to my uncle. when he couldn’t find her he panicked and went to his mistresses house. She supplied him with the gun with which he killed himself. This was in the late 1980’s. He did leave a note at my aunts house that said even though he couldn’t quit drugs or his mistress, he absolutely could not live without my aunt. And so he went through with the suicide.

    On the other hand, my other aunts are still married to their husbands and there has been no infidelity.

    Then there was my other set of grandparents. My dad reports that he remembers them shouting each night after they felt he was asleep. They were both educated and from very prim families and never showed any kind of anger or abuse or anything less than a calm demeanor when my father was awake. He heard bits and pieces of it and he believes my grandfather had an affair with his secretary at the University right before he retired. After that, my grandparents stayed together, but slept in separate rooms. My grandfather died soon after that and my grandmother outlived him by almost 30 years. I don’t view my grandfather as a bad person at all because of the way he treated me and my parents. It’s hard to reconcile that because in every other area of his life, he had the utmost integrity, kindness, and sensitivity. He was a very well read man and also an early environmental advocate. I could see even as a child that he and my grandmother were mismatched and total opposites although she was equally amazing and her own right. They were just like oil and water even though they were both great people. Still that does not excuse his affair. I also think their marriage was on the extreme side and that there was not a lot of gray area. My father reports that there had never been in a kind of love between them and my grandmother absolutely hated being touched, even if it was for a simple hug. That translated into everything she did, including how she treated my grandfather. We know that touch, even nonsexual touch, is a necessity for 99.9% of the population. She fled from any kind of touch. And generally for men sexual touch is one of the main ways they bond with their wives. I have heard many men say that having a life without sex would be a kin to torture. Right or wrong, I have met many men that seem to be wired that way. So, it must’ve been hard on my grandfather sense my grandmother would not engage in any kind of touch after my father was born. There’s that book about the five love languages and the author says that most men have a primary love language of touch, both sexual and nonsexual. I always say if you have a lion in a cage, you better be feeding it on a steady diet of steak, or it will grab the steak that others provide when they come near the cage. That lion needs to be sated. Women have similar needs to and sometimes there love language is touch and other times it’s things such as service, general attention, spending time, and things of that nature. Love languages are individual to each person but the author of the book said generally speaking men’s love language was touch and women’s love language was spending time together. Back to my grandparents, I think my grandpa probably cheated because of years of lack of touch.

    Now clinically speaking, most men report that they do have sexual relationships with their wives prior to cheating. Some of them even have very satisfactory sexual lives with their wives prior to cheating. Once they begin cheating, The paradoxical thing is that their sex lives with their wives become even more frequent than ever before. I have read that this is because free-flowing testosterone increases during an affair. And 87% of affairs begin at work. Just finished reading M. Gary Newman’s book on affairs where he had interviews with hundreds of actual cheating husbands across various populations to gather his data. Most men report that they loved their wives more than their mistresses. 90% of men reported that the other woman was not as attractive or intelligent as their wives. Most men reported they had absolutely no desire to leave their wives for their mistresses. The man admitted to lying to their mistresses in order to have their cake and eat it too but they knew all along they were manipulating the other woman to get sex on the side. No matter how many times they said they love to the other woman, they were early meant it because they were just having fun. This is backed up from a neurological standpoint. In both the male and female brains, The area is responsible for love and emotion and the area that is responsible for sex are separated by some distance. And women we have tons of neurons that connect the two areas that are akin to a high-speed superhighway. While man have neurons that connect them as well, they have very few compared to the female brain. So what we have is a brain that is absolutely able to compartmentalize and has a hard time blending sex and love. That doesn’t mean their brain doesn’t blend the two. It just means that when it happens it’s more exclusive hence what we see in marriages. so they can love their wives and be turned on by the physical appearance of somebody, and have a physical urge, and they may act on it, but many times it doesn’t go beyond that and it doesn’t turn into love. Man also like to lie to their mistresses and paint their marriage is being this horrible thing so that they can draw in the mistress and gain her sympathy. It’s a very convoluted way to scratch an itch, but above all else and truly is scratching an itch. The men that Gary Newman interviewed and his book I believe provide a good scientific sample from which to draw conclusions. So my overall point is, even though men cheat, it has nothing to do with the wives or with them loving their wives less or even with them finding their wives less attractive or less interesting. It has to do with the choice to scratch an itch and scratching that itch does not automatically make them fall in love with the other person, they will often tell a mistress that they love them just to have their cake and eat it too.

  34. Sarah P. February 20, 2015 at 5:11 pm #

    I apologize for any typos. I use my dictation program when constructing these long responses.

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