Hello everyone!

Real love, unlike affair love, is not a fantasy.  Affair love is romantic dinners, enticing conversation and sexual excitement in a hotel room. Typically, it does not last. Real love is much more than that deep down, but on the surface there exist the realities of every day life.  Realities that aren’t always very romantic, enticing or exciting.

Real love (or married love) has an ebb and flow to it. Some days you feel the way you did when you first fell in love.  Other days you feel dispirited, tired, distracted, disappointed, and angry.

Even if real love begins with infatuation, it finds its continuity in married love, with peaks of real passion, valleys of disappointment, and plateaus of days that are just OK.  Successful married couples know this.  They have learned how to communicate and deal with the ups and the downs.

It can be frustrating as a betrayed spouse to find a way to make your spouse understand that what he/she is experiencing with their affair partner is not real

If only they could step outside of their bodies and see themselves from another point of view, they could then realize that though they may feel great now and think they are in love with their “soul mate,” that once the affair love wears off, chances are they are going to regret what they have done. 

So here are this week’s discussion topics…

If you are the betrayed, do you believe that you are (were) competing with a fantasy?

If so, how have you managed to do so?

If you are the cheater, do you believe that your affair is (was) a fantasy? Why or why not?

As always, please respond to each other in the comment section below.

See also  Discussion - Should the Cheater Ask for Forgiveness from the Affair Partner's Spouse?

Thank you so much!

Linda & Doug

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LINESPACE

    65 replies to "Discussion – Competing With the Affair Love"

    • WriterWife

      I know I was competing with a fantasy. It’s one of the first things our marriage counselor said and she was able to convince my husband of that point. As part of our counseling we took tests about emotional payoff of certain actions and why we do various things and the results showed that my husband is driven by seduction (not necessarily sexual, just in terms of wanting to get someone to like you) and fantasy. I think at first he was a little reluctant to accept that his feelings were a fantasy but he was willing to think about it and he ultimately came to that conclusion.

      That didn’t mean we didn’t argue over that point — there were many many many times early on when he would always give the AP the benefit of the doubt but never me. She was perfectly innocent in every way, he was the one who dragged her into this and caused the situation where she lost her best friends. To believe him you had to think that his AP was an absolute blind moron (and trust me, she isn’t).

      I think what caused him to change a bit was counseling, me not letting him off the hook, her actions after the NC talk, and him getting enough distance (though not much since he still worked with her) to see beyond the fog. I mean, for over a month she showed up to work horrifically depressed and sad — you do that when you lose a lover, not a friend. She sent him an email that he’d ruined her life — again, that’s an email to a lover not a friend. So he was somewhat forced to begin seeing that his perception of her was wrong.

      Our marriage counselor had a really great point about the fantasy aspect of affairs. She talked about a marriage being a sort of line between the husband and wife and over the years that line gets gunked up with artifacts: old arguments, stresses, family issues, etc etc. So it gets harder to cross that line and communication gets difficult and it’s harder to clearly see your spouse through it all.

      Then along comes the AP and you draw a nice new clean line between the BS and the AP (and she said the AP could be a person, work, hobby– anything that fulfills that kind of emotional space). As the BS you see these two connective lines and one is easy and clean and the other is crowded with artifacts and its so simple to think that the clean line is the “soul mate” because isn’t love supposed to be easy like that?

      Give it time and that line will get just as gunked up.

      The thing about living with someone in a marriage is that you can’t ignore the bills, you can’t not think about the future and how to plan and save and deal with emergencies. But with an AP those things don’t exist! You might dream or fantasize about a future with them, but the reality and hard work to get there isn’t an issue. And it’s always easier to live in a fantasy.

      To put it bluntly and a bit crassly… you can only date and be with someone for so long before you’re gonna fart in front of them. You can try to put off that moment as long as possible, but at some point you have to give up the fantasy and be yourself, farts and all. That’s what a marriage is — you get the farts and all. In an affair, you still get to present the image that there’s no such thing as farts and you certainly have never farted nor will you ever. But that’s a fantasy.

      • Doug

        Thanks for getting the discussion started WW. It seems as though you did a great job of helping him to see through the fantasy. It also seems you had a good therapist.

      • Hopeful

        For what it’s worth, I like fart metaphors in application to such weighty matters. Of course, once the fart that is the EA finally blows, it is the stinkiest of all and I venture to say that all that was rose-colored about the affair experiences typically eventually come to be seen through fart-smelling glasses…all slightly tinged with the odor of crap.

        Sadly, all must go through hell in the meantime.

      • Linda

        Writerwife, I know you posted this awhile ago but I was curious about your counselor’s test about emotional payoffs. Was it from a particular book or website? Do you remember any other the questions? Fantasy is the largest obstacle in affair recovery, and anything that can be done to erase the fantasy is a step in the right direction. Anything that can get the cheater to see the reality of the situation can greatly help the healing of the marriage.

      • Noone

        That and new things have no foundation…

        Old things that never worked out, were never able to waver the storms that were thrown at it….

        That line maybe all gunked up, but it’s because it’s been through the dirt and some of the most trying times…

        If it was an Amazon product, it be rated close to 5 stars because it’s history of durability and resilience are unmatched to the new that’s never been tried and to the old that’s failed when tested…

        I would always put my money, time and time again, on something that lasts, over something shiny and new.

    • Carol

      I was lucky in that my H came out of the ‘fog’ pretty quickly. He says that was because I called him on his BS in the first two days and told him to get out if he couldn’t take full and complete responsibility for what he’d done. I still can’t quite believe I had the backbone to do that straight away. 🙂 My experience was similar to WW’s in one way, though: for the first several weeks, my H kept insisting that it was all his fault, that the flirting and sexual banter was all on his side (it wasn’t), that he was the one behaving inappropriately and that the OW never thought they were anything other than ‘good friends.’ Sure. Because it’s normal and totally innocent to make extensive plans to meet up with a ‘good friend’ you’ve just met while traveling in a foreign city, right? To make out in said romantic city with a ‘good friend’? To encourage said ‘friend’ to leave his wife if he’s not ‘happy’? To exchange hundreds of text messages a day with your married ‘friend’? To send said ‘friend’ pictures of yourself? Riiiiiiight . . .

      In order for the fantasy of the EA to work, of course, she had to be a ‘wonderful’ person who was wronged by her H, her mom, her schoolmates (no kidding — the woman is 30 and gave him some sob story about how when she was in fourth grade nobody liked her), and has no close friends in whom to confide. The fantasy was that this wonderful, beautiful, accomplished woman thought *him* valuable enough to be her flirty confidant. To look at the reality — that she’s a narcissist who can’t manage to have a functional relationship with *anyone* in her life — parent, partner, or friend — would have burst that bubble straightaway.

      So after D-Day in my usual gentle way, with my typically meek demeanor (um — not), I, er, popped that fantasy bubble. He now will say that he thinks she’s a terrible person who unthinkingly wreaks destruction all around her.

      Sheesh. Could we all just maybe agree that by definition ‘wonderful’ people do not mess around with married people? If everyone could just accept and live by that very basic precept, we’d still have a CIA director (!).

      • Doug

        Thanks for sharing Carol. When the cheater really considers deep down and honestly all the facts and elements of the affair, there should be no reason to hold the OP on a pedestal or make excuses for him/her.

      • kghart

        It’s only been a week an a half since I discovered my wife’s emotional affair, which she started with an old boyfriend via FB. I knew about their renewed friendship but never dreamed she would allow herself to get tangled up in an affair.

        The situation is similar to Carols in that she seems to have herself convinced that she’s justified in her behavior because his marriage is so bad. My wife and the OM had a previous relationship, which ended 21 years ago over a misunderstanding and now that he’s explained it all she’s convinced that she abandoned him rather than vice versa, which she believed for 21 years. Now that she understands what “really” happend her new found quilt coupled with his stories of how bad his marriage has been all these years has her believing she needs to make it right.

        Fortunately, they are not communicating and the OM’s wife has started sending my wife nasty emails. I’m trying to give her some space so she can make a decision regarding what she wants to do. It’s so hard.

    • Disappointed

      I struggle with this every day. My H still feels she is his soulmate and talks about how easy and free he felt… His month of happiness. He has said it wasnt real and that if he had known how miserable we (mostly he) would feel a year later he would not have done it. And yet though he is sorry he hurt and betrayed me he says he will never regret her awakening him and making him feel alive again. His 86 yr old mom told me she could understand why he needed someone new to feel alive again. He says he no longer has in love feelings for me. I wish I knew how to get them back because unfortunately I haven’t lost my feelings for him. It is over 1 year with no contact between them. He is in a full blown MLC and running from everything. He has moved back home (financially imperative til I find a new job for 10% more money). He wont commit to trying with his words. But his actions show him to be more considerate and caring. I just fear it is guilt. He finally started seeing a counselor and I hope that will help, it is my only remaining hope. I have been seeing the counselor myself. He seems to think there is still a chance for us. I just hope he can help us get there. My H called her innocent and I know she pursued him and said high school esque things Like “I cant believe you make time to talk with me.” Nauseating – I would never say that to anyone, not even when I was 16. My counselor says to ignore his words and watch his actions. I am losing faith. How can 1905 text messages in 1 month hold a candle to 20 years. I keep hoping he will grow up before he loses the best thing to happen to him: me.

      • Doug

        Disappointed, it seems that he is at least showing some positive movement – counseling, caring and considerate actions, etc. Take these as positive baby steps and keep working day by day on your relationship. Best of luck.

    • Disappointed

      Forgot to say, I feel like she has permanently beaten me and will always possess his heart going forward. And she never even intended to really be with him. How pathetic is that? My life ruines and hers intact. Mutual friends telling me “it just happened? And acting like it is nothing. They think my H was the pursuer, but he wasn’t. She was not innocent, and he is no hero.

    • Linda

      I am rereading “How to improve your marriage without talking about it” because I am very interested how shame affects our relationships. Men feel shame when they believe they are not protecting their family, while woman fear that they will be unloved or abandoned.

      The authors discuss how an affair and infatuation can temporary diminish the feelings of fear and shame. It explains why during an affair the partners feel so confident and proud while doing things that they otherwise would find fear-invoking and shameful.

      They also state that one reason affairs rarely turn into viable relationships (80% divorce rate) is that the chemical relief from fear and shame is short lived. Once the narcotic effects of infatuation wear off, the woman is likely to feel more insecure and the man more ashamed of himself than ever.

      When you really understand the fantasy present during an affair you will realize that it would never compare to real love. It is a controlled situation that is based on chemicals and secrecy.

    • Disappointed

      WW – interesting, the OW wrote my H she had ruined her life after she told her H she was falling in love with my H. It wasnt her life she ruined, it was mine. She also told mutual friends she was falling in love with someone else and they figured out who it was. I think they feel sorry for my H and her and not badly for me. My H has said it wasn’t real and he didn’t really know her. He still talks about how free and easy it was and how she just wanted to know him. How can he stay in the fog so long? Yeah I know the answer, because then you dont have to grow up and see how at fault you are and what a cliche you have become. My head gets it even if his doesnt, but my heart is crushed, he has never chosen me again. And I am so pathetic I haven’t told him to get lost. Guess first step is a new job and financial independence…

    • Natalie

      Wow disapointed I have to say a lot of what you say is like holding a mirror up to how I feel and the things i think.

      Esp about OW getting off scott free – that still makes me so angry at first I wanted to get in touch with her OH and tell him about what she had been up to – then I was frightened if I did that it might actually drive her and my husband together!

      When I first discovered the EA we were on a once in a lifetime holiday, we had been having such a fantastic time after what had been a really difficult few months and I had never really been able to put my finger on what had been wrong in that time he had just been distant but on the holiday it had been totally different and we were getting along better than ever. Now in hindsight I see this was because of the time difference thier regular contact had been massively cut off. On the very last day of our holiday he showed me something on his phone and a whatsapp message from her just popped up. I had been so trusting when I then started to go through his phone and find thousands and thousands of messages I could not belive my eyes – he hadnt even deleted any of them it had all just been sitting there the whole time – NINE MONTHS worth of hundreds of messages a day!! 233 messages on my 2nd wedding anniversary alone. I would say that my husband was in “free fall” he has a form of athritis for which he was taking medication for and under the supervision of his hospital. He stopped taking his medication cold turkey and I didnt find that out for about 6 weeks when I noticed the mood swings and medicine starting to stockpile, he stopped going to his hospital appts and they discharged him because of it which now we are paying the price for as we try to peice our life back together. That was when all this started, I think he was not in his right mind but it doesnt stop me from being so disapointed with him. We have been together for 13 years and he had always been the perfect partner, romantic and affectionate and kind. I find it hard to believe I am not in a waking nightmare sometimes. She had a severely broken leg and was off work for an elongated period so clearly had a lot of time on her hands – time which she would just use to sit texting my husband. Q EA begins!

      This is the second marraige which she has damaged I might add – I found messages where she says they have to be careful thier friendship “doesnt get wierd” because shes been there before etc with another married man.

      Oddly my husband claims he was not in love with her which I find very hard to swallow, he just felt they “had a connection” because of her injury and his condition. He even swore this in front of our marraige counsellor, I would love to be able to believe this (said girl is very plain and a bean pole not OH’s type at all) but the absolute worst thing that I discovered was that on her birthday he had taken her out for dinner alone and bought her a necklace – from the same jeweller he would normally buy gifts for me – supposedly to “cheer her up”. And its that one act that tears me up every time I think about it. Because the jewellery regardless of being a romantic gift wherever it was bought from was my thing – and it was something I used to love that he did. and now i feel like I have nothing left.

    • Dave

      From what she wrote to him and the fact they were intimate for so long and knew each other well, I can’t understand or decide if what she felt for him was real love or romantic love. She has changed her story several times, waffling between it was real and it was a fantasy. I think she started clinging to it being a fantasy because that is what our counselor told her, and it made it seem not quite as bad – not as big of a betrayal.

      • Doug

        Dave, sorry you’re having such a rough go of it. You just need to remember that you have to do things that are going to help YOU, and that are in your best interests. Something has to give at some point. Either she needs to be all in, or not.

    • Broken2

      My husband once said “”she never bitched at me”. Well of course she didn’t live with him. She didn’t wash his clothes, pick up after him, cook for him, take care of him with when he was sick etc etc. Its all a big fantasy and I competed with his fantasy for 18 months only the playing field wasnt level because I didnt even know I was competing. I often compare it to going on vacation with my hubby. There are no worries, the world outside is left behind for a brief period of time and everything is great. Then you have to come home. In a way I feel like I am still competing because my self esteem is so bad that I look at her picture (20 years younger) and feel completly insecure.

    • Dave

      Yeah, my wife went on and on about how nice it was at his place. He doted over her and looked into her eyes and he held her hands. It was quiet and peaceful, and he always had music playing and candles lit. Everything was neat and tidy and he set the perfect mood. He was very romantic. He bought flowers for her and had them out when she went over. It was blissful and perfect. Good for him.

      The coup de grâce was the day it rained – the last day they were together (she claims). He open the bedroom windows, lit candles and incense, and put on some romantic music while they…and when they were done, they professed their undying love and talked about their future together. How beautiful. 🙁

      I’ve done romantic things with her and for her, but when I asked her to name one, she drew a blank.

      How can I compete with that? :/

      …this leads back to an old subject. You CAN know too much about your spouse’s affair.

      • KelBelly

        Dave, I love romance as much as the next gal but this stuff that this guy is pulling with your wife is him strutting his peacock feathers. Oh, let me get her away from her H and let me have my way with her and when I am done, out the door with her. Its a game!

        That is not love! Love is loading and unloading 300 bales of hay in 104 degree heat for your wife because you can, love is putting your wife in check so she won’t have to be embarrassed by her actions later. Love is holding her hair back at 3 am when she is throwing her guts up. Its that drive to Taco bell at 1 in the morning because she has pregnancy cravings, Its holding you newborn child with tears streaming down your face. It is partnering through sick children, sports events,work schedules. It is stress, happiness, anger, pain!! Love is real and it makes mistakes but in the end when you have weathered the storm of life, it becomes calm.
        When I looked at my marriage, I knew that what was between my H and this other woman was not love! It was two people who forgot what love really was. It was my job as a wife to help him remember what true love was. Thankfully and by the grace of God, my H remembered and came home.
        I really hope that your wife wakes up and gets it Dave as I do for every person on here who is dealing with a wayward spouse. Don’t let her actions dictate your self worth. She will say things to make you feel bad because she is trying to convince herself that what she is doing is right.

        • Exercise grace

          Amen! Well said ,Kelbelly! Affairs simply aren’t real life. Dave, you can light all the candles in the world, that wasn’t it. They created a little fantasy world, where bills and laundry and cooking and kids did not exist. That was it.
          She seems to still be in the fog. It has been shocking to me to hear what my husband doesn’t remember or remembers wrong. Cheating spouses have to induce amnesia. No one crawls into bed with someone else thinking what a great spouse they have. We become demonized so they can justify their disgustingly selfish acts.

        • Rick

          Great advise Kelbelly. Dave I understand completely how your feeling as I’m sure everyone on this items does. Kelbelly words of wisdom are so true. One thought that came to mind whenever a moment of clarity interrupted the storm in my mind. That thought was, “This is so high school, what she saying!” If I wasn’t in the middle of the situation, i would probably laugh and shake my head at the ridiculous things she was saying.

        • kghart

          How did you go about showing your H what true love really is KelBelly? I just discovered my wife’s EA, which has only been going on for about a month and she’s still blinded by the whole emotions and, I believe, chemical euphoria she’s experienced. Although we’ve been talking and she’s agreed to go to counseling to sort out her feelings she still believes she’s supposed to be with this guy and doesn’t want to work it out with me. I just don’t know how to show her I love her without her feeling pressure to “change” and it forcing her out the door. Right now there’s still hope but it’s touch and go at this point.

          • KelBelly

            Kghart, Is the OM married? I think every marriage is dfferent and you need to find what will work for you. For me it was alot of talking. We talked about what our marriage was missing, what he was missing, what I was missing, what we were unhappy about, what was good in our marriage. I started counseling on my own as well with my H. I got a life. I started doing things with my friends instead of being home and up his butt per say all the time. I realized that during our roughest spot before I found out about the EA that I had put everything aside that I enjoyed.
            The biggest thing I did was show my H that what he was feeling with the OW wasn;t fantasy. That it was real and that what they were doing was real and ruining lives. You need to find out the true reasons your wife has turned to another man. She will try to lay all the blame on you at first but as time goes, she will see what she has done to get your marriage to the state it is in as well.
            .

            • kghart

              Yes, the OM is married and I emailed him to let him know that I knew what was going on and what my wife was doing. It seems that she was moving a little to fast for him and he’s ceased communicating with her. My W said he hadn’t made her any promises about leaving his W to be with her. HIs wife knows and she’s been sending not so nice emails to my wife.

              In the past week we’ve done a lot of talking but when asked she cannot tell me what she was unhappy about, etc. We’ve always struggled with communication issues and she’s had trust issues with me from the start of our marriage because of father issues, which she’s admitted. I realize that I haven’t been as attentive in the past 6 – 8 months as I could have been and I let a lot of things slip so I do accept responsibility for not fully being there for my wife. She says that she didn’t realize she was unhappy until she started having “feelings” for him.

              This guy her was her first love from 20 years ago and her first lover. He wanted her to marry him but their relationship ended when he moved away to find work out of state. For twenty years she felt that he abandoned her all those years ago and lo and behold after twenty years he’s told her about how it was him who felt abandoned and that she broke his heart not to mention how bad his marriage is. Now she’s wondering what if. It’s as if she wants to try and go back 20 years and make it right.

              I’ve told her I can completely understand how her friendship, which she was upfront about when he contacted her on FB, could get out of hand and that I understand her feelings are real but that didn’t justify her behavior. I don’t understand how she could seemly turn off her feelings for me one day and have such strong feelings for him the next that she was willing to leave me and our kids. She adamant that she’s finally being true to herself for the first time in her life.

              I’m struggling daily to show her I love her without being clingy and needy but she’s not open to talk about restoring our marriage at this point. I hope this changes soon and I’m trying to give her space to sort things out. I just dont’ want to be a doormat while she figures out how to leave me instead of seriously evaluating what she’s doing and what she really wants because we all know that the grass isn’t greener on the other side.

            • KelBelly

              The only thing I can say is this! Be there for your kids and do what makes you happy. Build a life for you and your children. If your wife is not willing to talk about saving your marriage at this time then don’t push her. Ask her to do things with you and try to include her in everyday decisions. Make her feel that she is important in your life but don’t push for a intimate relationship at this time. I found that when I did this with my H, it pushed him further away and just hurt my heart more. I think the best thing I did for myself is to quit being afraid that he was going to leave and quit putting myself out there to be hurt. Let her know you are there for her but you will not be her doormat. If you are ready, give her a time limit to work it through. The other guy has already made his choice and she is only holding onto hope that he is going to change his mind which I have found doesnt happen very much. If the wife is sending your wife nasty emails, then it means she is not willing to give up on her marriage so chances are those two are going to work it out.

      • Recovering

        Omg I almost threw up reading your story! Thankfully I didn’t have romance to compete with, though the OW tried. My husband is NOT romantic, so I dont even see the draw… She was trying to make something out of nothing, and him being the pig he was at the time went along all too willingly! She was like a sponge… listening to EVERY word… hell, I heard all those stories 15 years ago and was like that too! I’ve heard them over and over through the years and already know how they all end… not that he is boring, but after so long, there aren’t new stories!! She even tried to make his lasagna from his suggestions of how he makes his, though he conveniently forgets that it was ME that came up with the final touches to make the lasgana the recipe we love!!! EGO much? He swears they didn’t talk about me, other than for him to tell her that I would leave if I found out about them. I think he has forgotten all the crap he told her, otherwise how could she be so stupid to think she could have him? What makes me feel better is to think of the misery that the OW must have been in when my husband dumped her for me when I found out. First thing she asked him was if I left – NOPE, but that wasn’t because I wasn’t going to, but because it was 1 am and I was pshyco and up the rest of the night and have 2 children and had to be to work at 8am that morning. That doesn’t really leave a lot of time for going anywhere! I left later and he didn’t go to her despite her professing her undying love as well. What they had wasn’t love. It was sick and a LIE, and anyone who believes what they have in a cheating situation is real is fooling themselves. How can you really KNOW someone when nobody else KNOWS about you? She was obviously so wonderful that he was ashamed to tell anyone about being with her, even AFTER the fact! LOL! What an idiot they both were!!!

    • Gizfield

      Oh. My. God. Please say it isn’t so. He had REAL candles. AND real music. And REAL flowers.!? And rain, and looked into her eyes. This guy sounds like he has been watching the Bachelor, and is a low rent version. The sacrifice of time and money is mind boggling. And the cheapest thing of all is TALK, especially when you have to do nothing to back it up. If this stuff is important to your wife, why doesn’t she buy some candles or flowers. Please dont be jealous of this guy , he sounds like a player who does this stuff with every one. Ugh.

    • KelBelly

      Gizfield, your so funny lol!! Thanks for the laugh and Doug, she is serious about not being jealous of this guy. He is not worth the energy.

    • Rachel

      I too know too much about his affair. She stroked his hands while they had lunch. She kissed him hello and good bye on the lips and hugged him. But he didn’t act on that. Hahaha! Does he think I’m stupid?
      They love the attention. Dave, don’t listen to the stories. If she decides to tell you more about her romantic evening, dont show jealousy. This is what they want. They want to hurt us.
      Try to move on to a better place. Think about you. Difficult yes, but trust me you will feel better. Good luck!

    • justbecause

      Wow, always thought I wanted to know more about my H’s EA. Now, not so sure. I think it’s part of my problem though … the continual wondering. This guy who barely wrote his name on the bottom of a card he might buy on my birthday – from the grocery store, spent hours & hours writing online to the cow. They did talk on the phone. What prompted these conversations? What more did he wish for? Was there more???

      Oh, shut up my over active mind.

      • Exercise grace

        I would think long and hard before you ask questions. In my experience it helped me some (some of what I was imagining was worse than reality or actually never happened) and it hurt me some (it gave me more to feel bad about). Now I have a self-imposed 48 hour rule. If after sitting on it that long, I still feel like I need an answer, I ask. Often in that amount of time, I can let it go.
        As far as the writing goes? Don’t beat yourself up. Been there done that. It’s just a part of the affair, the rush of a new relationship. Telling stories to someone that hasn’t heard them a hundred times, to some sleaze that is probably acting like every word they say is the greatest thing they have ever heard. Gag.
        At some point, when I was calm enough I told my husband that if he could take the time to build a relationship with another woman (PA/EA) then he has time to communicate better and more frequently with me. Further, I asked him what it might have done for our marriage if I had gotten even ONE love letter from him. If he had invested even a fraction of the time he spent on his AP into our marriage, I wouldn’t be here. None of us would be, I suspect. Hang in there, it gets better.

    • Dave

      I should clarify this was stuff that all happened back when they were together for their second affair together. It has been over for a while now; it is just fresh and new to me. So the problem is mine now I guess, because I have given the story weight, form, and power over me and how I feel.

      All the things I wanted so desperately to know to help me to understand are now the movies that play over and over in my head. I’m not longer competing with affair love – just its ghost, which seems to be more powerful in death than it was in life.

      JustBecause, of all the mistakes I’ve made along the way in this process, the worst was demanding to know every detail. I got everything I wanted and more, and now those things are eating me alive. It feels much worse than not knowing. I would give anything for a pill or treatment that would excise the bad memories and images.

      I think this is especially true if the affair had a physical component. My wife’s feelings of “love”, real or not, could be explained away or rationalized as infatuation or limerence, but the physical acts cannot be explained away. They happened and the images of those in my head aren’t fading.

      Maybe it depends on the type of person you are and the type of memory you have, but if you aren’t forgiving by nature, you tend to obsess, and you can remember details of your life back to when you were a child, DON’T probe for more details. They quickly become a curse.

      • Exercise grace

        Dave, I think you make some good points here. I was in the “have to know” camp. It has been a double edged sword for me. Example: the affair was also physical. In my mind, they were at it every day, when in truth it didn’t average once a week. So some of the answers were better for me, because the truth wasn’t as awful as my imaginings. However, you are right that it feeds the mind movies. Honestly? I think I would have had them anyway. I think it’s my personality.

      • justbecause

        Dave –
        Not easy to forgive, obsessive when involved in something, can remember details like no other . . . that’s me. ugh

    • Exercise grace

      Do I believe I was competing with a fantasy? Absolutely. That’s what an affair is, at its core. It’s an escape into an alternate world. No bills, no puking kids at two in the morning, no financial issues, and likely no arguments. What’s to argue about? I’m great, you’re great…life is good.
      There was a period of time during the affair that I can now, in hindsight, see that I could not win. If I pressured him about my suspicions and we fought, I was the awful nagging shrew. When I was trying hard to address the”issues”, my motives were suspect. I was only doing it to disrupt their relationship, not out of love for him or an effort to save the marriage. I couldn’t win either way. I was in a competition and didn’t even realize it until way too late.
      I coped with it the only way I knew how. By hanging in there and fighting for my marriage. He says now that it was some of our huge fights that woke him up. Generally I think you can’t make someone see the truth. They have to arrive there on their own.

    • Disappointed

      And sometimes even after they admit it wasn’t real and that they never really knew her, and that it would never have worked… They still call her their soulmate and say it was their one month of happiness and hope for better times. And look at the twenty years with you as toxic and broken… Sometimes you cant win, because they don’t want you to. Not after a year of no contact. Not after you’ve shown compassion and understanding and more love than they deserve.

      • Exercise grace

        Wow that is harsh. I would say well go pursue your false happiness. I am worth more than just being someone to listen to you spout off nonsense. I deserve more. Hubs, if anyone has made this toxic….. It’s you. Peace out.

    • Muller

      Too bad Those who have or had emotional affairs (with or without sex) have not and do not share more often. I think their story would be different than ours and to me that is just as critical. I’ve read very frequently uon such blogs devoted to those who have had affairs that such spouses, while maybe feeling guilt, almost always remember their affair partner fondly and lovingly despite what they say to us about “never think about them at all.” Are we really that gullible to think they do not. Furthermore, even if it was really fantasy and not love, what difference does it really make except in some vague and distant way. The result is the same. We have faced the horrible devastation of someone who betrayed us, whether it be for love or fantasy. The damage is still done. And, no matter whether the affair was fiction or non-fiction in meaning, the pain and scar ar 100% real. Even if you come back together again, you always live that sense of emptiness, dull pain, and reality that your love is not true love, the kind that would more than anything care and protect the other. An inability to love anyone else BUT YOU. That specialness is gone forever. My wife had a,non-sexual emotionally intense affair in which she fell in love or “thought so” (what’s the difference at the end of the day?”) with another man 3 years ago. We are still together and working through to a “new” relationship slowly. Our past now seems so unreal and almost meaningless. What does her claim of love for me now matter if it couldn’t stand when it was tested I ask myself often. Was it ever real? How does a person decide to cross that line if they truly love their spouse, even if the time of the marriage is a tough one? I almost hate to see other happy couples and or even worse marriages than ours, but yet they remained faithful and committed to ride through the tough times together. I guess three years later, I’m committed, happier than last year, but still sad with such a profound sense of loss. I just think we shouldn’t gloss over,what they did,and try and make ourselves feel better by saying it was a fantasy or fiction. For them, it was love and we were replaced. And whether she left me emotionally for those 4 months be it for fantasy or love, the semantics doesn’t matter. She hurt the one she was suppose to love only and the most in the most hurtful way possible. I’ll carry that wound forever and I have to be honest with myself. No fantasies or fiction for me. Just attempted and attempting forgiveness–whatever that is. Mike

      • Sidney

        Muller,
        The reason very little cheaters post is because when they do, they get blasted. For most BSes, the feelings of betrayal and hurt are very raw resulting in harsh words towards the cheater. Although the cheater knows the angry words are not directed at them personally (since they were not the ones who betrayed the person posting), it still hurts. In my opinion, the cheaters who come to this site are looking to heal themselves…..for a variety of reasons. Some feel guilty, some want to figure out the reason they cheated, etc.

        I personally think the BS could learn a lot from the CS….it may answer some of the ‘whys’ or ‘how could theys’ or the ‘what were they thinking’ questions. For instance, maybe their spouse doesn’t answer their questions or know how to answer their questions….so if they get explanations from other cheaters, maybe it will help them understand their own spouse.

        As for the real love vs. fantasy discussion….I think the cheater perceives it as ‘real’ because the feelings they are/were feeling are real. They experience happiness, excitement, the thrill, etc and those feelings are real…..as well as the feelings of sadness and loss after the affair ends. The situation itself isn’t ‘real life’ because, like people have mentioned, it’s all text, phone, email and not the day-to-day stuff like bills, jobs, children, illness, etc.

        And Muller, you are right…..when they say they ‘never think of them at all’…..they probably still are. However, the more time that passes, the less they cross their minds. Maybe what they mean is that although they still think about the other person, they are not DWELLING of those thoughts and more importantly, they are not acting on the thoughts or are consumed with the thoughts.

        Good luck to you and your wife as you work together on this healing process.

        • Recovering

          Of course the cheater thinks what they are feeling at the time is ‘real’, though cheating in and of itself is all a lie. Cheaters don’t want to face this reality because then they would have to face the fact that they are bad people, at least during the cheating! Hurting others knowingly and purposely makes you a bad person. Luckily my husband never defended the whore when I would bash her as such because he did take responsibility for him being horrible right away, but I’ve read that many cheaters defend the AP to the BS because they don’t want to be called such horrible things and face the fact that they were horrible, disgusting people – they don’t defend because they are trying to protect the AP, they defend because they are trying to protect themselves. Cheaters should be shamed. I am all for cheaters wearing the scarlet letter! If there were REAL consequences, maybe you selfish people wouldn’t hurt us like you do!! I hope Patraues goes to prison for cheating! Actions unbecoming… not only that he broke a real GOVERNMENT contract with his WIFE! You cheaters think you can do what you want regardless of us. I hope you are miserable, and I hope it eats you alive that he dumped you and wants to be with his wife. You shouldn’t have been in his marriage to begin with! If just one of you had been morally sound and not so dang childish, none of this would’ve happened! And you are right! I am not here for YOU, I am here for ME! The cheater needs to pay, and the BS needs to heal. I feel no sorrow for any pain that my husband has gone through because of his cheating. HE made that choice, I didn’t have an option! He had many other avenues if he needed more and didn’t want to leave me… I don’t think my husband thinks of the whore, at least not in a good way. He sees her for who she really is now, and not who he though she was. Funny how I saw her for who she was and could predict every one of her movements after the cheating was outted and he was wrong on EVERY count… clearly he didn’t know her! Is funny, we were on a date night the other night and I saw this person that reminded me of the whore. I got upset more because it evoked the feelings of rage in me that I hate that I have, and he had the nerve to ask me how I even knew what it looked like! Seriously? I know more about the whore than he does… including what it looks like, what it’s husband looks like! Where the husband works, his email, his phone number, their address, what their house looks like, how much they paid for their house, when they bought the house, who it’s family members are, what it’s maiden name is! All of this stuff HE didn’t even know! He didn’t KNOW it! And it didn’t know him! Cheaters are liars…. and they need to grow up and get over themselves. I hope you have pain over losing him – you deserve it because he was never yours to have!!!

    • Dion

      This part is hard. I know it was a fantasy but I still compete with it. And I know it is impossible compete with a fantasy and win. She’s been out of the fog for about year now but I don’t think she believes it was fantasy. She just knows that she shouldn’t have done it but now she has all these beautiful memories to relive. How does a few months of intensity wipe out 18 years? My biggest problem is how I am constantly feeling like I am competing with him. My wife has no idea the lasting pain and insecurity I feel.

    • JLH19

      When my H first told me he had been in contact with his high school girlfriend (his “first love”) and tearfully admitted it to me to assuage his own guilt, I told him the next day that I could never “compete with a fantasy”. Of course, this is before the real D-day a month later when her fiance forwarded all their emails to me and I found out he had thwarted their plans to finally meet in person that very day. At this point, I hadn’t read any books on emotional affairs or even accepted that was what had happened. But when he drove home and begged me to talk to him and forgive him for round 2 of lies, the only solution that made any sense to me was to end the fantasy. (1) I threw my wedding rings into the lake (2) I demanded we leave “right now” to go see her (3) I texted her fiance to let him know we were on our way, and that if they wanted to be together so badly we should just let them. It was my intent to drop him off at her house, over an hour’s drive from our own. I can’t believe he was doing it. He was sobbing and pleading with me. I think he would have done anything I asked at that point. Then she called me and, on speaker phone, told me that it was all “just a fantasy” and begged me not to bring him. She told him, on speaker, that she never wanted to see him. A month later she sent a hate-filled, venomous text to me that shattered any fantasy he had left of her. So I guess I was lucky in that he saw through the fantasy pretty quickly, and before they had a chance to advance his EA to a physical one.

    • Broken2

      JLH19…your reaction and handling of the news of the affair was so perfect. I often wish we could make many people here on this forum see that coddling their cheating spouse is the wrong way to go about it. You made him see immediately that there were serious consequences to his behavior and that helps to wake them up. Good job. I hope you are able to work things out in your life. You seem like a strong lady. I didnt do the wedding ring thing (allthough I would sell mine before throwing it) but I did tell him no contact right the moment I found out and called her with me there. Good luck to you.

    • Alone

      Muller and Dion,

      I’m a female cheater. What you are describing reminds me so much of what my husband is going through. : ( My husband knows that I truly fell in love with this guy. He doesn’t think it was a fantasy or some dream. That makes it a lot harder on my him. He feels like he is always competing. I’m trying to comfort him in that regard and ease that pain as much as I can. You are correct Muller that the result is the same, and yes I think most cheaters do pine for their AP but they will *never* admit that to their spouse. I know for me, I really wanted to fix the mess I made. Admitting that I still pined for the OM wasn’t going to do us a lot of good. It’s a long way out of the “fog”.

      I used to post here a lot, but stopped as I it wasn’t good for my recovery anymore. Cheaters, as stupid as we can be, are human beings. If a cheater comes here, they are looking for help but often get ripped up and torn up. So no one posts here often. But I would bet there are a lot of cheaters that are reading…

      Best wishes to both of you. I really do wish you a full recovery. If your wife feels like me, she is blessed to have a husband like you willing to give her a second chance.

      Sidney, good to hear from you. Hope you are recovered fully.

      • Sidney

        Alone,
        I’m so glad to see you on here! You cross my mind quite a bit and I often wonder how YOUR recovering is doing. I hope your marriage is healing and you have forgiven yourself of the guilt. I still read on here every day, but only comment when a question is directed for a cheater.

        I am doing okay. There’s actually been quite a bit that’s happened since I last posted on my situation, but….the good news is….I’m 6 months ‘clean.’ Although I think of the OM daily, my mind is completely ‘clear’ and I am back to my ‘normal’ self.

        Have you been okay? Hope so. Wishing the best for you and your husband!

        • chiffchaff

          I for one wish that cheaters would post on here more often. I think that it would help my H see what he should be doing by comparison to people who are in his position. He can ‘talk the talk’ easily enough but his actions are frequently at odds with what he says. which then sets us back. I don’t feel like my H is blessed that I gave him a second (well, fourth) chance or that he makes any attempt to heal my pain.
          Maybe it’s just a bad couple of weeks.

          • Sidney

            Chiffchaff,
            Is your husband willing to read this site on a regular basis? If he would, it would allow him to see and hopefully understand how devastating his actions were to you. He can’t fully grasp the damage he’s done until he gets into the mind of a BS. He may ‘hear’ you when you tell him things, but he may not be fully aware of it because it’s you. If he sees that it’s not just you….and it’s every BS, he may finally ‘get it.’

            “Talking the talk” is surface-level. He needs to actually ‘get it’ before real healing can occur….for him as an individual and for you two as a couple. He also needs to understand the ‘why’ behind his actions. Has he ever made any attempt to understand himself?? If he’s had four EA’s, then there’s something in him (about him) that is causing him to fall back into that pattern….if the four affairs are with different women, that is. If the fourth chances you mentioned were with the same woman, then that’s a different story.

      • Linda

        Alone, Thanks for your input and you are correct the BS can learn a lot from the cheater. You commented that you are trying to comfort your husband and ease the pain that he feels. Would you will willing to share how you try to do that, how you help him understand that your marriage is very important to you?

        I know that many of us will never understand the strong feelings the cheater has for the OP, especially compared the the feelings that exist in a long term marriage. How do you compare those feeling or is really fair to do so?

        I believe all of us would like to understand why cheaters choose to continue their marriages even if they are still in love with the OP? I feel it is very selfish of the cheater not to be upfront about their feelings I know in many cases if the BS were told the truth about the cheaters feelings toward the OP they would decide to move on with their lives. They would feel they deserved a partner that only loved them and didn’t harbor feelings for someone else.

        I guess I have one last question, after all the devastion that the affair caused why does it take so long to get out of the fog? What could both partners be doing to speed up that process? Does the BS delay the process or is the cheater in denial? As long as the cheater is still in the fog real healing can not begin and the love for the spouse can not be restored.

        • chiffchaff

          My H described his time in ‘the fog’ as it’s called on here as a time when he just couldn’t stop being selfish. He wanted her to stay where she was and me to stay where I was. He said he wanted his fantasy back as reality was just too hard to deal with. It must be brain chemistry if it happens to so many people who have gone through this and the time to ‘come out’ of it is roughly similar.

    • Alone

      Sidney,

      I barely look at this site anymore, but did yesterday and posted only because I saw you had! Glad you are doing ok. I (we) are better, but not healed yet. Lots of ups and downs, but more ups these days. This is a very long process for sure. Take care and happy thanksgiving to you!

    • Disappointed

      My H and I had a nice Thanksgiving, but I contnue to be haunted by the OW. I think about her every day and how my H chose her and has never chosen me again. I still feel like she took everything from me. The have been NC for over a year and my H just moved back home after having an apartment for a year. His move home is mostly financial as I have not yet found a better paying job. Tonight at dinner he shared some things about his childhood, probably as the result of the counseling he just started. I really pray that he can find his way back to me. But regardless of what happens, how do I get past this? I will never be as athletic or as small and thin as she is. I cant be a fantasy with no responsibilities attached. In some ways I think I am a constant reminder of his shame. Two weeks ago he referred to his month long EA as his only happy, hopeful moments. Tonight he was joking about how he wouldnt miss the warmth of human kindness of anyone. And I had to bite my tongue, I am sure he thinks he misses her still. He said she only wanted to know him. I gave up a family (he didnt want kids) and so many other things I wanted and it was all because I wanted to love and be loved by him, to be close to him, to know him. And he cant see any of it. All he can see is responsibilities he doesnt want and a woman he says he cant have in love feelings for because he realized they were dead because he had them for the OW. The difference is he wanted to love her and he listened to her bs “I cant believe you make the time to talk with me.” It was all make believe and attention seeking, mirrored flattery. My love is real. I am in pain every day and I wonder if she ever thinks about all the pain she has caused me. She was a supposed friend, not a stranger. I feel like she took everything away from me and I will never get it back. My small nonprofit will be lost as well if we do not end up together. The nonprofit is like my substitute family. My counselor (also his) thinks there is hope, but I am so lonely and sad even though I try to act as if I am not. I am trying to be strong and do the right thing. But every day I feel it in my gut that she has won even if they never speak or see each other again. Yes my husband broke his vows, but she pursued him when he was in a depression (he is manic depressive). I will always believe that it was a game to make herself feel better and maybe even snap her husband out of his apathy. She never intended to leave her husband and her two kids. And my H would never be a stepdad. She has her home, no financial worries, her husband and two children. On this day of thanksgiving, I cannot fathom how she forgot to be grateful for what she had and work to make it better. It hurt even more that my H made her out to be self sacrificing for her kids , saying she only stayed because her H would keep the kids from her. She was NEVER going to really be with him. And he threw away the one person who loves him and has cared for him and even got him into counseling to address his demons. I dont think he will ever wake up and really choose me or admit she was like a drink for an alcoholic. My counselor says I need to let her go. That she has been out of our lives for over a year. That I think about her more than he does, that she could have been anyone. But my H still has her in his heart and mind. As long as that is the case she has won and I have no idea how not to feel her lurking like a phantom. I am thankful my H is in my life, but I dont want this pain any more and it will never leave. You cant beat a fantasy.

      • Rick

        Hello Disappointed,
        Even though I am a man, your feelings and doubts are mine. Though my story is has a different ending. She choose the other. I last talked to her about 2 weeks ago after the other man coming to live here 3 weeks prior. The day before he came to town she called me asking for help with her TV. Like a fool I was excited that she called and still thought there was hope. Then 2 days later, I found out she had taken 2 weeks vacation then when I called she kept the call to a few words then hung up. I had asked for over a year for her to take a week off for us to reconnect. When i finally reached her 2 weeks ago. She told me that she was finally in a happy place. She wasn’t as broken as she thought and that I had made her feel worse then she was. I was only answering her questions and talking to her when she looked so lost but I should have moved out.
        After I asked if she’s like to have dinner, since we were “friends” she told me she had plans. I asked if he was nervous and she said that he is secure about his feelings and she thinks deeply of him. Also that I should have never asked her to stop writing him when I found out about the affair, a term which she still disputes. “He didn’t have an agenda” This Thanksgiving was hard to say the least, She never called and I saw a picture of her on FB. She was beautiful but i saw her finally relaxed. I was crushed. It seemed like just yesterday how she would tell me that I was “Her Heart”.
        You know when others say this is about her not you, it feels so lacking. She’s happy and I’m miserable. How come she’s rewarded for this betrayal and I’m in misery for fighting for the relationship? It is confusing. I can remember every harsh word I may have said. The time away. Thinking of others instead of her. She remembered them as well. But I also remember the flowers and the gifts. The times spent dealing with her two out of control kids ( I mean really out of control-drugs, stealing and such.) The vacations cancelled because her kids sabotaged them by getting kicked out of school. The times I would find and talk to her sons. The moments she would tell me I was to tough on them for asking them to live by the rules, then the times she said I was too easy on them because after the argued, I chased them down and talked to them. The times her ex stopped paying child support for 3 years and I helped cover those costs.
        It’s funny, when I mentioned this to her. She said that I was my choice to stay if her kids were so much trouble. If I had left then (4 years ago when the biggest incident happened. Oldest was selling drugs.) she would have begged me not to leave and abandon her. Because I almost did leave. Every so often this past year when i would think of leaving, she’d open her heart. Maybe I was hearing what I wanted or she was letting her heart open and sh’e tell me she loved me. Then I’d get so happy that I was betting this.
        The hard part for me is seeing the baggage I carried to the relationship. Feelings of not being worthy of love because of issues long before her. The hurt she felt when I kept her at a distance. She was lonely. I am a truck driver and being gone 2 weeks at a time made her lonely and scared. Yes it was because of the economy but in the end was it that important. Now no. But it’s the memories of my failures that get to me. It’s the could-a would-a’s that rack my conscience. I am seeing a counselor and finally digging through the past hurts. Others tell me in the end I will come out a head because I am working on my issues and she is running away. But what if this guy makes her happy. Is it selfish to stand in the way.
        Be strong Disappointed. If there’s one thing I would do differently is I would have made myself strong. If he’s not then work on yourself. Quit comparing yourself to her. I doubt she could have lived through the hell your going through. Look at yourself as a beautiful woman. No matter how you view your looks and confidence. Having morals and fighting for someone is sexy. If he can’t be strong then that’s his problem because it is. It was his feelings of inadequacy that led to the affair. I would give anything if my girl had fought through this like you have. Focus on yourself and don’t be draw into his downward spiral. Strength is sexy and right now your allowing him to control you.
        I hope you take care of you and act instead of reacting which is what I did for a year and a half. Take care.

    • Kate

      I just got done reading a book called Sex at Dawn that goes that reviews primate sexuality over time and concludes that monogamy is not natural for humans, so we shouldn’t be surprised that infidelity happens so often. The book says that the longer people are married, the more they feel like family to each other (more like siblings) and sexual arousal wanes due to the familiarity. The author postulates that humans (especially men) crave novelty and that it raises their testosterone levels, making them feel very vital and alive, which leads easily to a feeling of “being in love” (when in fact it is largely hormones), especially if the person has not been with anyone other than his or her spouse for a long time. Separate of the initial decision to cross the boundary into a EA/PA, which I am not considering in this post, this helps me understand the feelings a lot better. Maybe if couples understood the natural tendencies to desire novelty from the beginning, they could talk about it openly and agree on how to handle it. Instead it never occurred to me that my H could stray because I was so sure that I was his soulmate. Now his “love” for the OW seems more understandable to me, and less threatening. I also realize that we need to make sure to include novelty in our relationship…keep growing individually and together.

    • Disappointed

      I am floored. Just had a friend tell me the OW is having another affair with another married man and that she is known for doing just that. The same person who said she is in another affair also knw about her affair with my H. I have no idea how they would know as I have been very careful. I wish I knew more and could tell my H just how special he really was… NOT. All I can think is some other poor woman’s life is being ruined.

    • Izzysmom

      How do you move forward when your spouse thinks they’ve done nothing wrong? He has now had a long heart to heart with her and straightened her out. She is only ever to be a friend. He was delusional and read things that weren’t there. She is just helping him get his life together. Get heathy. Train for a marathon. Get a new job. Blah. Blah. Blah. He had the nerve to refer to her as a life coach.
      How do I move on? Why can’t he see how much he’s hurt and disrespected me? He may not have had sex with her, but he’s cheating on me (and our kids) with his time and attention.
      Do I not deserve to be a priority is his life?
      While, some of the fog has lifted, as his song has greatly changed from a month ago, I don’t see how we can have a relationship when he still relies on her for decision making things.

    • KelBelly

      If there was nothing wrong, why did he have to have a heart to heart with her? He has done something if he had to set her straight! He needs to realize that if this relationship with this other woman has led you to be uncomfortable then he needs to let it go. And yes, you deserve to be the top priority in his life.

    • Angie

      As women it can be hard to accept that our husbands found someone else attractive and may have developed feelings for the OW. What we have to remember is that we did nothing to cause this. Its not because the OW is prettier or smater. Its not that we are doing Something wrong! The problem is their’s! Their lack of confidence or some other issue that the OW doesn’t know about and probably never will! Not only are our spouses seeing the OW as perfect, our spouses especially husbands but on a perfect face for the OW! So I said all of this to say…don’t compete against a fantasy…..when he or she really needs someone they know where to turn….they turn to the person that has seen them at their best and worst. The person that knows their strengths and weakness…..the person that knows their fears and dreams….don’t compete there’s NO competion…you started out the winner!

    • Disappointed

      Angie – I agree with except it doesnt make me feel better. She took his heart and still has it. And eventually despite my best efforts and taking the high road I will be alone. It doesn’t matter that I know that I am the best thing that ever happened to him and that all our friends would agree. He doesnt want me any more as anything more than an old , convenient friend. How does love just disappear? Oh wait it was stolen or seduced and then freely given, just not to me… The one who has spent 20years trying to make his life better. Really rough day. Just dont see the point of anything any more.

      • Rick

        Hello Disappointed, I know how you feel. I commented a few days ago when my thoughts were stronger. But today I’m lost in doubt. I saw a picture of her and she looked happy. It is hard to understand. I can look back and see every argument and my role in it. It is correct what they say about the state the relationship got to is on both people but the affair is all theirs but little comfort comes of that. I see her happy with someone who others would say doesn’t hold a candle to me. He abandoned his child, been in and out of trouble. DUI’s an a time or two in jail. That’s how they began writing. He was in jail with her son.
        I even though I was gone a lot. Truck driver, I helped or tried too with her 2 troubled sons. Helped out when her ex-husband became $10,000 dollars in a rears on child support. I understood she was lonely and if I could do it again, I’d quit my job but I also had 2 sons to support as well as bills for the house. She came out of a bitter and abusive marriage. It was 6 years afterwards that i met and fell in love with her. We did move in too quickly and the problems did overwhelm at times. The petty arguments became to common. I broke up fights and tried my best to help her sons out. Taking the youngest on the road with me in the summer to give both her and him a break from each other. Also because his father never picked him up during that part of the summer.
        It is funny how the things we got together became “business” for her, while I can remember every purchase. The fun of picking things out. Of getting her nice things because she never got anything from anyone. I loved seeing her face when she’d open a present. It wasn’t the item, it was the joy of knowing someone thought she deserved the best.
        How does she choose this guy over me? I know where your at. It doesn’t make sense. I have never thought of myself better then anyone. Years ago I worked as a counselor with troubled kids. Kids people gave up on. She told me she needed space then while cleaning out the closet I found the letters. I didn’t make sense.
        Thru this whole episode and a few counseling sessions, I’ve discovered how unhealthy our relationship was and the hurt and abandoned baggage we both carried. You know one time when I left a job, she chased me down because she was worried she’d never she me again. The job just wasn’t paying very well. Then just last year when she was crying telling me that when leaves someone it’s for good. She never really had too many good relationships, Boyfriend before me turned out to be married. But she was beautiful and caring and giving to my sons and me. It is confusing and I seemed to be rambling… You wonder if what she’s doing is wrong how come she seems happy. Don’t give up on yourself Disappointed. What everyone is saying is true your just stuck in his turbulence. Like the old example. Your in the circle and a target. Try as best as you can to get out of the house. Go for a walk with the dog. Join a club or community group. Work on your faith and let him work on his issues. Your the strong on here. I know it doesn’t seem like it but its true. People tell me the same but it is hard to feel it. I’ll be sure to say a prayer for you.

    • Dana

      My husband can’t decide between me and the other woman. We’ve been married 23 years with a 16 and 14 year old. He is in love with his 14 year younger affair partner. In January, we separated and I was under the impression it was so he could think clearly about what he wanted. Found out two weeks ago, he actually took his emotional affair to a “full blown committed sexual relationship “ with her when he moved out.

      We started divorce proceedings in April. He told me two weeks ago he wasn’t sure this was the right decision because he knows I don’t want it and he was starting to question if he truly wants it. He says he’s torn between deciding if he wants to work on our marriage and choosing her. In this two weeks though, he has continued to talk to her and see her, and anytime we talk or are together I feel no hope, love, anything.

      He has asked for an open marriage more than once and I have no interest in that.
      I told him I think he should take a month with zero contact with either of us to really, truly make an unbiased, uninfluenced decision because there are 5 lives here that stand to be deeply impacted by whatever decision he makes. He acts like that’s an unreasonable request that he can’t consider. So I have 2 questions here:
      1) Is that a fair reasonable request with so much on the line here or isn’t it? I truly don’t know anything anymore…
      2) He thinks me telling him I won’t compete with her is a horrible statement. I told him what I meant was, “I will FIGHT for you, us, our marriage, our family like a rabid lunatic zealot. But I need to know you’re even marginally in for me too…that’s what I meant…we’re both in for each other, us, our marriage, our family not just me trying to convince you to pick me.” I will fight, have been for 20 months, but fighting and competing are completely different. He says she’ll compete and is competing for him. How to I respond to this? I feel like I’m sacrificing my dignity and self-worth and showing my kids a horrible example by letting him try to convince me to compete for him.
      ????????‍♀️????
      HELP! Any and all input is welcome.

    • Better days

      Dana,
      I’m so sorry, I don’t know how you do it. I think one day is reasonable. Set an example for the kids. Teach them that no one deserves this abuse. Continuing on how you are is participating in the open marriage you said you’re not interested in.

    • Shifting Impressions

      Dana
      It sounds like your husband actually thrives on two women “competing for him”, like he is some great prize to be won. Asking him to take a month without contact is not at all unreasonable. But I doubt he is in a reasonable state of mind.

      I agree with Better Days….you don’t deserve this kind of treatment. Not allowing your husband to treat you this way is “fighting for your marriage”.

      I believe it would be wise to get some individual counseling to walk you through this nightmare and get good legal advice.

    • Jj

      I have taken care financially and emotionally of my H for 17y of marriage. Ive had to force him to work, send him to doctors, manage all sorts of emotional roller coasters. However, the last 3 have been hard and I wasn’t the easiest person. Its because i was in excruciating pain, while still working an extremely stressful job, with several unknown slipped and bulging disks I have always been the giver and only needed him this one time; when I ended up in the ER nearly paralyzed and had emergency spinal surgery. I had to beg him to drive me to the ER, he didnt stay with me, beg him to come back when they told me what was wrong and a few days out (unable to basically move) he had a mental breakdown. I had to actually find him a psychiatrist. He never helped me through recovery and I grew very depressed which I shared But suddenly his life was wonderful! The new drugs cured it all! He started (which he never did before and I have known him for 27y) going out with 20 year olds to bars. People he knows from the gym.

      Turns out he shared his worries about our marriage with everyone. Worries i didnt know about. Then started a “special relationship” (the OWs words) with a 26 who has minimum wage jobs, purple hair, wears doc martins with cut off shorts and lace stockings. So yup I would say it was a fantasy. She made up crap to get sympathy- she was apparently almost Killed by an abusive xboyfriend. He was “helping her”. He actually tried to get us to meet. As I have now told him “how the fck do you think that would have went. After i found he was texting back and forth with her and the last text said “make sure to sending me that video of you shaking your ass in a thong” I lost my mind- literally. I managed my response really poorly but i was near a breakdown with stress and physical problems without this. It was too much for my mind. He put me through hell while seeing my excruciating pain. He continued to text her, continued to see her, lying he wasnt. He even introduced her (not telling them this was the girl causing us problems) to his brothers. He faught with me and protected her at every turn and at every lie I would find out the truth. He didnt break it off till she had someone call me and say they were out together and had a relationship.

      Now meanwhile he is arguing- there only friends, he was helping her, he told her they would never have sex because he is married (um if you have to tell someone that maybe not a good idea!). This went on for 3-4m.

      Then that is over and he writes two x-high school loves on facebook that he hopes their paths cross, they look the same, and “he wished he had the confidence to ask them out”.

      Now 9 months over he is very apologetic. Says what he did was wrong. He is promising to make changes and get a career. He was rutterless and Couldnt talk to me because he thought then (when this other girl crap started) I was gonna divorce him. Well hello I couldnt get an ounce of help from you and I have only asked 1x in 17 years! He is gonna grow up. Blah blah

      Our divorce is on hold. If anyone here is the EA partner – this is the worst pain, humiliation, and anger I have ever experienced.

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