Open ‘Mic’ Discussion #29 – Talk About Anything You Want!

 

It’s been since July that we had our last open discussion, so we felt it was time for Open ‘Mic’ Discussion #29 !  

In case you didn’t know, or are a new reader, this is where you guys call the shots and discuss the topics that you want to discuss.

We know there must be some things that are going on that you can either ask questions about, share your experiences – or maybe just do a little venting.  Anyways, the floor is all yours!

Feel free to discuss anything…

  • What’s on your mind?
  • Have any success stories to share? Big or small. (We especially want to hear some of these!)
  • Wanna share any lessons you’ve learned recently?
  • Got a question? Ask it.
  • Do you have any problems or situations that you’d like the community to offer their opinions on?
  • Any good books you’d like to discuss?
  • What’s your favorite movie of all time?
  • What are you and/or your spouse doing to further the healing and recovery in your relationship?
  • What’s working or not working?
  • Has your therapist given you any good advice or exercises that the rest of the readers might benefit from?
  • What has your spouse done lately that really pisses you off?
  • What has your spouse done lately to make you really happy?
  • Tell us a little about yourself.
  • Everything and anything is on the table for discussion!

Please don’t be shy. If there is anything whatsoever on your mind, please leave a comment below.

Thanks!

Linda & Doug

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183 Responses to Open ‘Mic’ Discussion #29 – Talk About Anything You Want!

  1. TheFirstWife September 26, 2017 at 9:56 am #

    I have a question for everyone. What is the “one thing” that helped you move past the A and feel as though you forgave your CS?

    • Shifting Impressions September 26, 2017 at 6:15 pm #

      TFW
      That is a good question….

      True remorse and the willingness to listen to my pain are two things that are helping me move “towards forgiveness”

      I am struggling with the meaning of forgiveness at the moment. In November, it will be four years since d-day……..and although I have come close…very close to forgiving, I am not there yet. I have come to the realization that forgiveness is something that no one else can do for me. It was not through my own doing that I am in the position of having to forgive…and yet…here I am.

      I am fortunate to have had such wonderful life, all these years, that forgiveness wasn’t all that big of a deal. There were difficult things to deal with…..but nothing like this. Betrayal by the person “closest to you in all the world”…..slays you like nothing else.

      So yes, I believe the CS can do a lot to help the process but in the end the struggle to forgive falls on the BS. I wish it wasn’t so.

      • Hopeful1 September 30, 2017 at 4:34 pm #

        Hi shifting impressions , I am not able to forgive my husband yet either. And it has been 3 years in November as well for me! I still have trust issues if he is still in contact with her! I want to get past this , I just can’t believe him because of all the lies. I only talk to my sister mostly as we are so close. She is my twin. I have read this app since I found it years ago. I have not posted a lot, but I am feeling the need to do so! My husband has tried in a way to help me, but not in a way that is helping me. I have sent him some of the articles to read and I am not sure he has! I guess I still need answers!

    • Angela October 20, 2017 at 10:42 am #

      Getting him to open up to me and explain his own mindset, and what it was that appealed to him so much. NOT so I could try to meet those needs for him, but to get him to recognize them within himself and recognize his own bad choices in what he did to fill them. This helped me see him as a human being, vulnerable as we all are, and stop seeing the “cold-hearted monster” I’d been viewing him as. That was the beginning of forgiveness for me.

      • Shifting Impressions October 20, 2017 at 6:42 pm #

        Angela
        that is an extremely wise perspective!! So helpful. I’m slowly coming around to that way of thinking as well. It’s taken almost four years but, it’s a process, that’s for sure!!!

    • Angela October 20, 2017 at 5:06 pm #

      And this is my second reply here to your question but someone else’s comment also reminded me of something else. I literally had to teach him to step outside of himself and pretend that I was telling him a story that someone else did to me. I told him to listen to me as if I was relating a story as if he didn’t do it. Does that make sense? It was a simple concept but it was one he had been unable to grasp and up until that point every time I described my feelings or started talking about my experiences with his EA he became so defensive and so angry and begin stonewalling me that we never got anywhere for years. When I approached him calmly one day we had set aside some time to talk and we’re both in a calm mood I started by telling him to listen to my story step outside of himself and pretend I was telling him a story that someone else did to me. He was able to quit feeling personally attacked he was able to stop reacting with anger and he was able to start feeling empathy and once the empathy came out of him it came pouring out in waterfalls I was amazed so maybe trying that tactic would help.

      • TryingHard October 20, 2017 at 5:28 pm #

        Amazingly brilliant Angela!! So good. I agree. When you put people in the spot and in an angry defensive mood they will lock up tighter than a drum. No one wants to be seen as the bad guy. Prisons are full of people in just that circumstance. There can be tons of irrefutable evidence proving their guilt and they still claim innocence.

        I think your h also realized what he was losing that maybe didn’t occur to him during the affair. But you showed strength, smarts and conviction of character and didn’t budge. That’s what I admire is people who know their values and deal breakers and establish boundaries and if boundaries can’t be followed then you are ready to make your next choice. But to stay and languish in misery is my idea of hell

      • Shifting Impressions October 20, 2017 at 6:44 pm #

        I agree with Trying Hard…so brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing, Angela.

  2. Hopeful September 26, 2017 at 1:00 pm #

    The main thing was seeing how hard he was working on himself. Hearing his words and seeing those come to life with his actions and behaviors. Nothing has been perfect but seeing the dramatic change was enough. And what I realized in the end what he did to himself was worse than what he did to me. I still don’t understand how internally he could be so broken that he did everything he did. He has the professional education and training too. That is what gets me. He said he knew it was a horrible decision before he did it. He knew he would take our marriage to the brink. I can forgive but still hard on a daily basis.

  3. TheFirstWife September 26, 2017 at 1:44 pm #

    Thank you Hopeful.

    I have the same thoughts.

    You knew it was wrong. You saw the pain and devastation. You caused not one but 2 DDays and wanted a D throughout the A.

    I have forgiven and I see what it has done to me. He hides it very well on what it has done to him but if I ask he will tell me how much pain he is in.

    I just don’t get how smart intelligent people choose an A. Makes no sense. But I guess in some cases it starts out innocently enough and it is fun and exciting and daring etc.

    And then the reality sets in and they don’t want to stop it b/c they are hooked. Emotionally or physically or something. I don’t know what but something keeps pulling them back even though it is wrong.

    And they get so far in they think “they have a connection” and the AP is “the love of their life” and all that crap.

    Just hard to reconcile sometimes.

    • Hopeful September 27, 2017 at 2:42 pm #

      Yeah for my husband the first one was on a whim and he had only met the woman that day. It was on vacation and she lives far away. he says he ever contacted her but she would reach out to him. They only saw each other he thinks 4-5 times over 10 years and would go over a year without talking. The other woman tacked him down for 3-4 years. She would find out where he was and just show up. The entire time she begged him for his number. He always said no. In the end she got dropped off at a bar and begged him for a ride. She begged him to go in. He said he told her he could not do this and he knew it was a horrible decision. Well in the end it is all his fault he made the promises to me. But he never had a relationship with them. I guess the second one sort of. Even that was sporadic. He said he would just hope neither one would contact him. I will never understand it. I would never do this to myself. I can see why he felt bad for so many years. It just sucks we are left in the cross fire!

  4. Nearly Normal September 26, 2017 at 6:01 pm #

    TFW,

    To me the big thing is when my CS pays attention to what I say. A lot of the issues we had that led to the A was her not believing that I loved her, even though I said it. I feel a great need to be listened to. That sounds kind of petty, I suppose. But communication is very important. If I feel like she does not take seriously what I say or is ignoring me or my needs, I get cranky. So when she does listen, it makes me think it was worth it.

    I forgave early on, but it’s been a daily struggle (as Hopeful says) to always feel like I made the right decision to forgive. If she does something that I can possibly interpret as some kind of micro-betrayal, I start to get on edge. That says more about me and my feelings than about her.

    For instance, a while ago she asked me about a decision she would have to make that would affect the whole family. It was whether or not to have an in-law come and live with us for awhile, something that I knew would negatively affect everyone, so I said that we should just say no. But in the end she gave in and said yes. So why ask, if you were going to do the opposite? It’s the kind of incident that has nothing to do with infidelity, but still pokes the old wounds.

    When she does listen and treat my opinion as something important, it feels to me like we’ve made progress. I’m not saying that I have to be the high lord and master. It’s a two-way street, and usually it works well, much better than the shambles our communication used to be.

    • Hopeful September 27, 2017 at 2:45 pm #

      For me everything brings up feelings related to the betrayal. This works for gold and bad. My husband loves to reminisce about how we met and got married. Well to me I cringe since he told me the main reason he cheated was he was not ready to get married when we did. Keep in mind we were not even living in the same state and I never once brought up marriage. And then when bad things or other discussions come up about family or work I am the same way. I feel like it brings up all those feelings of walking all over me and making me feel like less of a person even though I was always the one here for everyone.

      • Nearly Normal September 27, 2017 at 3:51 pm #

        Hopeful,

        that’s almost exactly how I feel. It’s so hard, when nearly anything can trigger the old feelings, to not feel like less of a person. Sometimes I can’t even figure out why something is making me feel bad.

        • Hopeful September 28, 2017 at 1:25 am #

          Yes it is a major struggle. I am tired of this whole process. I feel most guilty when it affects my memories connected to my kids like their birthdays. But then I remember they motivate to keep working at this. I will not stay just for them but I work extra hard because they did not choose this. This is a long hard road and I know my husband is there for me but he does not want to go on and on about all of this. He wants to support me but pretty much everything is too painful for him. Lately social media posts, books and tv shows/movies have gotten to me. I wish this could all just go away. It is a horrible dream and feels more isolating than ever all alone.

          • Nearly Normal September 28, 2017 at 1:55 pm #

            It is tiring for me too, especially when I feel alone. The reminders are tough, like when I’m sitting with my family watching a movie and there’s someone cheating on someone, but I can’t say how much it hurts because my kids are right there and they’ve never been told. Sucks big time.

            For us, the brain often gets wired to easily remember the pain, like there’s a hotline to the ugly memories. There are some techniques that can be helpful. Perhaps you’ve tried these things. If not, I think Sarah P. could give you much more helpful info than I could.

            But please remember that you’re not alone. If nothing else, there’s a motley collection of people at this blog who are wishing each other the best. On a bad day, that may not be much comfort. Then again, it might be.

            Stay hopeful.

            • TryingHard September 28, 2017 at 3:32 pm #

              NN–haha I love that and yes we are def a Motley Crew!

  5. TryingHard September 27, 2017 at 8:21 am #

    So I have a question I’d love people’s input on.

    As I told you, the OW died in June this year. Horrible illness horrible death. I knew she was in the hospitals and thing we’re not going to end well. I had a source close to her family that kept me informed. So of course I was on edge about any death bed confessions or phone calls. From what I could tell there were none. I didn’t tell h any of this. But when she died I did tell him. I struggled with that bit I wanted him to hear it from me and not an employee or someone else.

    So when I told him he showed no remorse. Nothing. I even said “well I might have hated her but there were people that didn’t like her family and I feel bad for them”. Nothing but he did say he didn’t feel bad about it and wasn’t surprised. Actually he told me right after he got rid of her he didn’t think she’d live much longer and this was before her diagnosis.

    Anyway her obit showed up in the paper and I told him it was there and did he see it? He said no he didn’t care. So about a month ago I was looking thru his search history and I saw he’d searched the obits in our local paper. I knew he had to have seen it. I waited to see if he’d tell me he’d read the obit. Now this was no ordinary obit and he never brought it up. I still waited.

    Finally last week we were going out and we were in the car and I finally found my courage I said “I’m curious did you ever read Bs obit”. Well the look on his face was the same as if I’d stepped into a pile of dog poo!!! He admitted “yes I did. I was searching another obit and I saw it and read it”. I asked why didn’t you tell me? Of course he had no answer.

    Now why wouldn’t he have said something about it? He tells me about everyone else’s obit he sees. Why was it so hard to tell me he’d read it? Why if I want to know something do I have to be proactive and find evidence that stuff has happened I.e. My searching his on line history?

    Still after he admitted he’d read there wasn’t much discussion about it or her or anything else regarding her. It was as if he never knew the woman. It seems so weird to me. I mean she was in his life hell our life for many years but nothing and certainly no remorse about her death.

    Anyway maybe I’m making something of nothing but I just find it all so bizarre. Is he really that emotionally unattached? Or at least he was to her. He didn’t even act relieved or say he was. I mean she could have caused all kinds of problems at any time and I’m thankful she didn’t but most do.

    So that’s my question and what’s been on my little pea brain lately.

    • Nearly Normal September 27, 2017 at 11:23 am #

      Hi, Trying Hard.

      From my experience, I would assume that the CS really does have some leftover feelings for the OW. How could he be completely unattached? It sounds to me like he is trying to spare your feelings, so he does not want to admit to the feelings. I think this is the same thing we get when there is trickle truth. The CS thinks that we can only handle so much.

      This may be what’s going on in your situation. Of course it’s hard to know for sure.

      The CS may even think that he is helping you by sparing your feelings, so to him it feels like he is being loving by hiding the truth. After all you’ve been through, he doesn’t want to hurt you again. We as BSs can see that it is not helping to hide info, but he doesn’t grasp it.

      This is all assuming that my experience with my CS applies here. It may not.

      This is can be so frustrating.

      • TryingHard September 27, 2017 at 12:23 pm #

        Hello NN

        Yes I considered that as well. But I’m telling you I have seen none, zero , zilch grief or sadness from him. Not when he dumped her and not when she died. I mean nothing. That stuff is kinda hard to hide. He sleeps well, laughs, etc. I have never seen any of the grief that I read about with other CS and the missing the APs.

        Also one therapist felt he was attachment avoidance as well. She did not believe he was emotionally attached to her. I know from my own frame of reference I don’t see how someone does this. Heck, I’m attached to one particular cashier at my grocery store for crying out loud!!

        Yes I think part of your answer is correct. He didn’t want to bring it up and have to talk about anything.

        • Nearly Normal September 27, 2017 at 3:22 pm #

          TH, you know your husband better than I do, obviously. if he is being motivated by his own desire to protect himself or a misplaced desire to protect you or something else, the end result is the same: frustration for you.

          The lack of showing his feelings is consistent with the male “keep your emotions hidden” gene. As an owner of said gene, I know how thick-headed my sex can be. Hope his head softens a bit, if you know what I mean.

          P.S. You clearly do not have a little pea brain.

        • Butterball September 28, 2017 at 9:46 am #

          TH-Please remind me, was yours a case of MLC? From what I have read, most CS do go through a period of mourning the OP, anywhere from a few weeks to months. But in the case of MLC, they often actually almost forget everything about the relationship, and they don’t really have true feelings for the OP anyway so I don’t find his behavior that strange. It could have been curiosity only to read the obituary, and he didn’t want to discuss it with you. Just as he would be curious to read any obituary of someone he knew. I mean what did you expect him to say too?

          • TryingHard September 28, 2017 at 11:04 am #

            Butterball
            I don’t know if it was a MLC or not. MC never diagnosed that and it doesn’t make a difference to me if it was or wasn’t so I haven’t sought any kind of validation around the subject because I don’t care what it was officially. For all I know it could be sexual addiction. Or more likely he was acting like a selfish, entitled jerk!

            What I expected was, ‘hey I read OWs obit in the paper.” and maybe a little discussion regarding how he felt when he read it. Because I actually asked him a couple days after it came out if he’d seen and he said no he didn’t care. Well obviously he DID care because he DID read it eventually all under the guise of looking up someone else’s obit.

            For crying out loud she’s DEAD!!! He’s acting like he never knew her. I mean WTF ?? we go to wakes for employees family members where he shows more feelings for people he’s never met.

            This certainly isn’t a deal breaker for me but it seems such a weird way to act. I think down deep all cheaters are just liars and they lie to protect themselves. They may not cheat but the lies become a habit. Habits are hard to break.

            Sheesh he has no idea how far just telling me that would have taken our relationship. Even something as stupid as reading and obit. And NO he did not forget.

          • Hopeful1 September 30, 2017 at 5:38 pm #

            Butterball, I believe my husband was in a m l c and he has not forgotten his mistress. I can tell by his actions and emotions. He was watching a movie and the song you are so beautiful to me came on, he was holding my hand and let go …. my hurt heart! I still have days that I wonder why am I still here?

    • Shifting Impressions September 27, 2017 at 12:38 pm #

      TryHard
      It’s official….we are married to brothers!!! Anything to avoid the hard conversations, let alone bring up those difficult converstions themselves. Your husband’s behavior just sounds so familiar.

      If I live to be a hundred….I don’t believe I will understand it. As Nearly Normal said he might be trying to spare your feelings but I think it’s more likely that he just can’t face bringing it up and the conversation that would result.

      Sometimes I think they just don’t have the courage to broach the difficult subjects with us. I know in the past my husband had gotten out of touch with his own emotions. I do believe he is doing better in that regard but I can wait until the cows come home for him to bring up those emotional issues.

      That being said…..he is always the first one there in a crisis and always willing to do what needs to be done. He sees what needs to be done and does it. Why this same man can’t be proactive when it comes to the emotional issues is a mystery to me. Oh that’s right he is your husband’s brother.

      • Shifting Impressions September 27, 2017 at 12:41 pm #

        Trying Hard, come to think of it I didn’t see any grief regarding the OW in my husband’s case either……he ended it on d-day and that was it.

    • Wounded September 29, 2017 at 8:49 am #

      Trying Hard-
      My guess is that he is/was too ashamed to admit that he read the obit. Also, if there is true remorse he may be attempting to spare you any pain. However most CS don’t realize it is more painful, in my opinion, for the BS to find that the CS is not being completely honest and forthright

    • Angela October 21, 2017 at 9:03 am #

      He knew the OW and like all human beings, we know people who die. Often, the only reason for reading an obit is to gain closure and pay respect to the deceased on a human level, rather than a ‘lover’ type level. We are all sad to hear of anyone passing away no matter how well or how little we knew them. His reading it probably had more to do with being human than grieving a lost love or anything of that sort. Maybe I’m giving him too much credit, but it could also have been a relief for him to know this person is gone and read it hoping to put this all behind in a very final way. He probably feared telling you he read it because it would hurt you, but it still seems a dishonesty and probably affected your trust in him again. I would point that out to him.

      • TryingHard October 21, 2017 at 9:22 am #

        Angela—. Thanks for your input. Very spot on. He knew she was dead because I told him. I believe he read the obit out of curiosity. And I believe he was relieved that she was totally out of the picture now. That’s kinda creepy. As much as I hated her I didn’t wish her dead and my only sadness about her death is for her family. But I’m just a stupid empath.

        I dont think he didn’t tell me about reading it because it would hurt ME but instead it would hurt him. But by not telling me he hurt himself anyway. Cheaters are so dumb. And of course it sets back my already fragile trust in him.

        His hiding the fact that he didn’t tell me he read the obit is not a deal breaker in and of itself. And of course like most cheaters he’s not going to give up info voluntarily. In fact no I had to ask and thankfully he didn’t lie but he lied again by omission. He doesn’t get that. Never has. #densemuch

        • Angela October 21, 2017 at 1:28 pm #

          Just discussed this one with my H. He mentioned that if this was an affair that went on for years, your H may have wanted to also make sure nothing in the obit contradicted info he’d given you, plus make sure that your H himself did not get mentioned in the obit as a “friend,”, which of course would have caused serious problems for you.
          We all know that if you make a list of millions of subjects to discuss, a CS’s affair is not going to be on the list of things he wants to discuss. I did drill it into my CS’s head that he has to apologize, and do it sincerely, until I tell him he doesn’t have to do it anymore, and that he better not wait until I’m upset or triggered to do it. As a BS, our bullsh*t detectors are on high all the time, so a lack of sincerity will stand out like a sore thumb. Getting it across to him that he has to be proactive is a hard thing to do, but can be done. I, too got utterly sick of being the only one who was proactive about healing.
          I bought my CS Doug and Linda’s book about How to help heal your spouse. If you don’t already have it, I highly suggest it.

          • TryingHard October 21, 2017 at 6:55 pm #

            Angela— yes it was a 4 year affair. She worked in our business although at the time I didn’t. Getting her out of there was risky but finally I said fire her today! After I found the burner phone.

            Lol oh I bought him books alright!! I even high lighted the passages. Refused to read them. SAID he would, didn’t happen. That should have been a deal breaker right then and there

            I told him I read the obit. He asked if our business was mentioned and I said no. Yeah that could have been her parting blow to me had she named him as her “special” friend but he wasn’t mentioned. Told him that too. Her daughters are pretty and have been very humiliated by her constant antics throughout her life. She was a real doozy. I’m not surprised they didn’t mention our business or him. They want all her bad behavior to go away. I get that after she was their mother. Her affair with my h was just one more humiliation for them. I think it was sheer curiosity that he read it. Not telling me was the bad part. He should have and could have said oh boy just read OWs obit. Creepy. I would have asked a couple follow up questions and dropped. I just think he can’t stand ANY kind of heat with regards to questions about the affair. But I don’t let it stop me anymore. If I’ve got a burning question I ask. But boy does he still squirm. I let him know if I have to accept it happened he does too. Deal with it

  6. TryingHard September 27, 2017 at 12:49 pm #

    LOL SI!!! I know we’ve each remarked before about these two being brothers!!!

    Part of it may be trying to spare my feelings, but I think he’s trying to spare his own feelings of my wrath but jeez I have’t blown up in years! Um, yeah when one first hears about her husband screwing around with an OW tempers tend to be quite loud. We were no exception but as I said it’s been years since I’ve had any kind of negative reaction to the subject. I just kinda wish he’d have said hey btw I read the obit. Simple as that.

    I think he may also be driven by his shame as well? Just not sure. I know I shouldn’t judge him after my own values or beliefs or that he would even react to stuff in the same way I do but I do wonder about his honesty as a whole when he can’t even tell me about the stupid stuff.

    Thanks SI

  7. Shifting Impressions September 27, 2017 at 1:09 pm #

    Trying Hard
    I know the feeling….all to well. I wait and I wait…..for things to be brought up. Finally I just bring them up myself. I keep thinking it will change but I think I need to stop setting myself up that way.
    We have talked and talked about him being more proactive but It just doesn’t happen.

    I know exactly what you mean….it’s hard to put in words. I also wonder about his honesty as a whole as well.

    He says he is more in touch with his own feelings…..I hope that is the case. It just doesn’t get any easier, does it.

  8. TryingHard September 27, 2017 at 1:54 pm #

    SI
    Oh brother!! Yes I hear you. I’ve explained how great the payoff would be were he to be more proactive with this stuff to no avail!!

    Same here. I’ve seen or saw no grief she was gone. All I saw was relief. Hhhmmm compartmentalize much?

  9. Puzzled September 27, 2017 at 3:11 pm #

    To answer TFW’s original question: my wife saying to me “you’re what I want. You have every right to tell me to leave but I want this to work”. She’s worked hard to win me back. She tries to always be open about where she is going or who she saw but it’s still a daily challenge to truly forgive & move on.

    Forgiveness is a daily decision. I wish forgetting could be a simple act. It’s 2 years out and there are still times when a memory, a song, a picture, or something random puts me into a funk. I’d like to say I haven’t changed because of this but it’s not true. I was always pretty laid back and easy going, laughed easily, and very tolerant of people/kids/situations. I’ve noticed myself being less so and that stinks. I’ve somewhat hardened myself to things. And my circle of trust has been squeezed down to a very, very small number.

    TFW & SI know my big hang up from other threads. There’s a puzzle we all try to put together after the affair to figure out what happened/why/who/etc. Sadly, it feels impossible to finish when pieces are missing and there’s no picture on the box to see what you’re building.

    • Shifting Impressions September 27, 2017 at 5:06 pm #

      Puzzled
      I used that same analogy…..about two years ago to my husband. Of course they don’t need to talk about it…..they have all the facts.

      I told him how unfair it was for him to leave me trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together with….no picture and several pieces missing. It is not fair for our CS to decide that we have enough information. But nothing about infidelity is fair.

      You know I don’t think it’s possible to go through this, without it changing a person. My prayer has been that I don’t let it make me hard and bitter.

      • Sarah P. September 29, 2017 at 4:09 pm #

        Hi TryingHard,

        I wanted to provide my 2 cents about your husband. I agree with your therapist that your H is someone with an avoidant attachment style. When they have an avoidant attachment style an affair is often used as a mechanism to not become to emotionally close to a spouse. They fear being genuinely emotionally attached to anyone and create situations where they can keep people at emotional arm’s length.

        These same folks also often have a social face where they are quite likable by people who do not know them well. They are great friends as long as there is no emotional involvement. For example, they make fantastic golf buddies. It’s one of those sports that is very social, but not at all social at the same time since there is no touching of another person, there are generally no (genuine) strong emotions involved, and the focus is on a ball and all kinds of nuances of technique of hitting said ball. I am not dissing golfers and golfers have all attachment styles. That was just kind of a tangent on how someone with an avoidant attachment style might show up in the world.

        So, back to the obituary. Your husband’s reaction is typical to someone with an avoidant attachment style. They never truly involve their whole selves in the affair relationship and they will deep six any emotions before they have the chance to surface. My guess is that he is relieved she is gone because it is one less emotional complication to deal with– and these folks hate complex emotions or emotional complications.

        • TryingHard September 29, 2017 at 4:37 pm #

          Hi Sarah– thank you thank you for piping in. You are right on and I am so greatful for your input

          In fact no I do not believe his motivation was to spare me or my feelings by saying he felt bad about her dying. In fact I truly believe he doesn’t feel bad about her dying. I think he is relieved. A couple days ago he practically said as much. And I have to say I’ve never seen him truly grieve anyone’s passing. Including many years ago when his beloved grandmother died. I know I’ve cried more about her passing than he did. She was a truly wonderful woman. It will be curious how he acts when his parents die.

          Your description about golf, and yes he’s a golfer, is right on too. He’s joined other organizations like JCs and Rotary and has quit them all saying he’s not a joiner. But he’s perfectly fine to be a member of a golf club!!! He’s not a team player. He hates golf scrambles and plays in them only when forced for business.

          This is all starting to make sense to me now. Yes he is si avoidant. Just yesterday there was an emotional problem with two employees and a customer. He said we need to stay out of it. I was gibsmacked and said “No that is not a choice. These are our employees. We sent them to do a job. It is our responsibility to keep them safe. What if the hot tempered customer throws a punch?”. I was shocked he thought he could stay out of it!!!

          I really believe his attachment avoidance is what drives him. I see it more and more everyday the older he gets. And yes I think his age is playing a role. It’s both scary and sad.

          The other point is he is very emotionally attached to pets. I find he is more emotionally attached to pets than people. It’s so weird!!

          Thanks Sarah. If you think of anything else let me know

          • Sarah P. October 7, 2017 at 5:46 pm #

            Hi Tryinghard,
            Your comment about pets stands out to me. When people are not securely attached, it doesn’t matter if they are avoidant, anxious, or ambivalent, they often gravitate toward animals more than people. But, securely attached people can gravitate towards animals too just because they love animals. (I am crazy about animals and always have been. Can’t explain why– it’s just how it has always been.) When I was younger, I was obsessed with saving the baby seals that get killed off of Canada each year for their fur. I was obsessed with this until my late 20’s as well as a myriad of other animal right’s causes. I was also a vegetarian at that time. But it was not only animals, I was also obsessed with saving starving children and worked at a non-profit for a while that did just that. Now I am obsessed with saving marriages because at one point it clicked that strong marriages and strong families are the foundational component to a functioning society. Plus, a lot less hearts get broken that way and this in turn creates a lot less broken people.

            Back to animals…On the other hand, people who are not securely attached see animals as the only “beings” they can get close to without ever being hurt. For example, look at how dogs treat their human family. If a dog is treated well, he will always be there to offer reassurance, offer unconditional love toward his human family, and be at a person’s side through the hardest times of their life. There are very few humans who can live up to that standard.

            But as for your husband, he was the one doing the hurting to you so it is strange he would gravitate towards animals. Maybe he does it because animals can meet narcissistic needs for some. Pets, and whether they live or die, is fully under control of the human in their life. Some people get a tremendous amount of power from that since it is a “thing” they can closely control. If someone gets high on power, then an animal can be a mechanism through which someone can get that power high. Or, even if someone doesn’t get high on power, some need to have a completely controlled environment and a pet is something over which a person can have total control.

            So, really there are many different reasons someone might gravitate towards animals versus humans.

            Truly though, I don’t know. Those are all just thoughts on my part but maybe one piece of what I said will help something click.

            • TryingHard October 7, 2017 at 8:52 pm #

              Sarah P
              Actually no he is very kind to all animals. He used to hunt in college and high school with his grandfather. He quit because he couldn’t stand hurting animals. When were in Alaska I was going to go into a fur store just to look. The store had wolf skins and he refused to go in because he believed they were condoning the killing of wolves something he is adamantly against. I’ve never seen him so much as raise his voice to our pets.

              I believe it’s an FOO issue. I’ve explained how cruel his parents were. I think he found love and solace with his pets. They couldn’t hurt him like his human family did. When we had to put our pet dig down a couple years ago he cried for two weeks. He loves his pets. Actually I am the one that does all the training for our dogs.

              • Sarah P. October 8, 2017 at 7:29 pm #

                Hi TryingHard,

                Your husband then is the first kind of animal lover– the one that truly loves animals. I never thought your husband would be the type to hurt animals. (Sociopaths are the only ones who like to hurt animals, wanting to have control over something does not mean someone wants to hurt it. Control can be grounded in the idea that someone always desires to know what they will get– especially if they have ever been exposed to hurtful environments.) Some are drawn toward animals because our pets have a purely loving essence and that is very healing to many people.

                I agree with you about his FOO and its influence, but did not necessarily want to put that in the original comment because I didn’t want to over-step. But since you brought it up, I do agree.
                In my heart I do believe that because of the cruelty of his environment growing up, that probably strongly influences his love for animals. Dogs are available to provide unconditional love and can be a balm for hurt. I have seen how our own dogs have helped my family members go through traumatic times–especially my dad. At one of the most traumatic times in his life, the family dog took over and was by my dad’s side every moment. The dog seemed to get through to him in a way that mere humans could not, even though he was strongly supported by me and my mom. So, there is great healing to be found in animals. Perhaps that is what helps your husband heal after what he went through growing up. I can understand why he cried for two weeks after you guys had to put your dog down. The same thing happened to me and my sons after we had to put the family dog down. Fortunately, they were NOT there — I would NOT allow them to be. Too traumatic. But, they cried every day for a couple of weeks because he was gone.

                Animals have a very profound healing effect for some people.

                It sounds like your husband experiences their healing power and likes their company too. That in itself gives me great hope for the future of your marriage. If he can experience empathy for animals, then there is hope. It demonstrates he is capable of empathy and empathy is required to have a good marriage or any kind of relationship really.

  10. TryingHard September 27, 2017 at 6:42 pm #

    NN thank you for your kind words and insight. You are 100% correct, the net result is the same. This all continues to make me scratch my head and think wwhhhaattt?

  11. Fragments of Hope September 28, 2017 at 7:47 am #

    This is an interesting discussion because like you all I have so many examples of my husband dodging, deceiving, not bringing things up or being highly defensive when anything closely related to the trauma of the affair comes up. I come from a family of girls where we and my mum would talk about and (over)analyse people and relationships and issues. There was no fear of talking/arguing things out. My husband’s background is completely dissimilar, things weren’t talked about, the brave face was always put on things and he was the golden child of two so felt he had always to be good and seen to be good. I can see how the shame of what he has done with the affair (and he didn’t realise how bad it was when he was doing it – it was coffees and texts building up to a fake romance and possibility of leaving but it wasn’t like what his brother in law did (leaving his wife the weekend her mother had a terrible stroke, shagging the OW when his boys were in the apartment, going on holiday with her behind my sister in laws back and then again just after her mother’s stroke, moving across the world away from his boys.) Anyway, my husband has seen the worst his actions did to me, severe depression, anxiety, but there was a D-day two (of him going back to talk to her). He did this even though he cared for me and wanted things to be right. If I put myself in his shoes in this for once, he must be horrified at himself that he kept on going deceiving me. If I give him the benefit of the doubt and belief he wants to do the right thing then is it shame/avoidance of facing into the pain he caused/defensiveness that is still at work when he doesn’t step up. Just lately I’ve been encouraging him to do some work from the Steven Stosny books which looks at how self-hatred leads to all sorts of awful actions towards others. When we hate ourselves we hurt others. I want my husband to stop medicating his self-hatred with occasional porn (hidden) or lashing out at me etc. If we can get to the bottom of this, we might have a chance. If not, we must regretfully step away from each other.

  12. Puzzled September 28, 2017 at 9:22 am #

    It simply amazes me how we can all be from different parts of a country or world and have such similar stories. Affairs suck! That’s the simplest way to put things. We have all had our marriage/heart/love/trust stolen from us. It would be really interesting to see the reaction of our CS reading our discussions. No names are ever given but I guarantee that they’d know who their BS handle by the posts.

    • Butterball September 28, 2017 at 9:58 am #

      That’s what Chrome’s Incognito Mode is for. 😉

  13. Butterball September 28, 2017 at 9:56 am #

    I just want to use this opportunity to thank everyone for your support here. I don’t check in that frequently but back in January you all helped me to see how my husband’s childhood influenced all that has been going on and this has been really important in my understanding and dealing with everything.

    OW is still in the picture but the relationship between her and H looks like it is headed to its end. He was about to dump her a couple days ago over something so petty that I really think he is looking for any excuse to get rid of her. Because it is something that in no normal relationship would it be anywhere near a deal breaker. But of course this is no normal relationship. He actually talked to me about what happened and I can tell he has absolutely no feelings for her. He does seem to have some concern about what will happen to her after he dumps her, but he does not express any concern that he would miss her. He just obviously doesn’t have the courage yet to do it.

    This is all MLC script. It really just seems to be a matter of time and I am putting zero pressure on him nor telling him what to do. In the beginning I felt our situation was different and he may never get out of this but as it has progressed he has followed the MLC script so closely that I believe it is just a process that will run its course no matter what I do or what he thinks he wants or thinks he will do.

  14. TryingHard September 28, 2017 at 11:10 am #

    To TFW question, What has taken me the furthest in my healing process? Two words–detachment and empowerment.

    When I finally learned about detachment, because I already learned a lot about empowerment and learned that emotionally detaching was the last bit in my effort to empower myself, is when I have finally seen that light at the end of the tunnel.

    It’s hard though when every fiber tells you not to. But I will never let anyone have that much control over me ever again to make me feel like I did after DDay. I literally wanted to die.

    NO ONE should ever have that power. I don’t care if it’s your mate or your child or your parents no one will ever make me feel like I don’t have a reason to live and live happily.

    • TheFirstWife September 28, 2017 at 2:50 pm #

      Great response. Thanks.

      • TryingHard September 28, 2017 at 3:36 pm #

        TFW–Thanks. I wish I could have been more introspective and could have talked about forgiveness and compassion but I have beaten those two subjects up six ways to Sunday!

        Unfortunately it IS all about prioritizing yourself and your own well being. People want to fuck up their lives, that’s on them. They want to fuck up my life, it’s on me to do whatever I have to do to survive. And taking care of me first and not owning their crap is where to start. We also don’t know this when we are in the early stages or even middle stages of betrayal.

    • Shifting Impressions September 28, 2017 at 4:35 pm #

      Trying Hard
      Just started reading a book you might like. THE SUBTLE ART OF NOT GIVING A F*CK by Mark Manson

      Here are just a couple of quotes:

      “This book will not teach you how to gain or achieve, but rather how to lose and let go.”

      “It’s a book about moving lightly despite your heavy burdens, resting easier with your greatest fears, laughing at your tears as you cry them.”

      “Pain is an inextricable thread in the fabric of life, and to tear it out is not only impossible, but destructive: attempting to tear it our unravels everything else with it. ”

      It’s very helpful with the whole detachment thing. I just started reading and I am having trouble putting it down.

      • Doug September 28, 2017 at 5:13 pm #

        I read that earlier this year. Great book, IMO!

  15. TryingHard September 28, 2017 at 11:12 am #

    LOL Puzzled you are so correct.

    I also have to say I am so happy to see you guys speaking up. I really appreciate your’s and Nearly Normal input. There used to be another guy I think his name was Scott that commented but I haven’t seen him for a while. He was awesome. And of course our fearless leader DOUG!!

    • Doug September 28, 2017 at 11:56 am #

      😉 I appreciate all of you guys and your contributions!

  16. Hopeful September 28, 2017 at 1:23 pm #

    My husband did not have a MLC we were way younger. One thing he has told me over and over was he cannot remember much. He said he hated himself the whole time. He said once he did it one time it was like he went down the slippery slope and there was no turning back it was who he was. He cannot remember what year the one affair began. He said all he did was try to forget and repress it all. It was not something to celebrate or highlight. So when I ask details even as simple as when did you meet what year. He cannot remember between three years. He only remembers it was the fall. I find this mind boggling. I did press for details but instead focused my questions on more broad ideas. What did it mean to you how did you feel etc a la Esther Perel. And his answers were helpful.

    None of this is easy. It is such a long hard road and all of you make it easier.

    • Shifting Impressions September 28, 2017 at 4:37 pm #

      Hopeful
      I agree….everyone here makes the journey a little easier.

    • Rose October 3, 2017 at 3:27 pm #

      My H says the same thing, “I don’t remember.” Well that’s funny since he has a photographic memory and can remember details and trivia that no one else can.

  17. bor September 28, 2017 at 4:39 pm #

    ON a different question that was brought up at counseling. Sept 24th last year she took us to a mediator, which at the time seemed very hell bent on ending the marriage. The year before that 24th was the day the AP texted me to ask if i wanted him to stop contacting her. This was six weeks after D day and i had all her assurance their was no contact. After he sent a text to both of our phones telling her he would no longer respond to her emails,phone calls or any other contact would not be returned my wife emailed him about how it was a huge mistake for me to intervene in the relationship blah blah all affair fog stuff that basically vilified me as being the bad guy for him finally doing the right thing when she wouldn’t. I brought this up at counseling that i thought that she should know these dates and be aware that they are going to be tough on me or at least be prepared to say if i am having a bad day. Sorry i know today is tough for you because of what i did. No it didn’t even remotely go that way. it was how the hell should i know what day it was? i remember anniversary dates, birthday you know important dates. She even pulled the her best friend doesn’t remember the exact date when her mom died. I told her i have seen on most comments of people who have been betrayed that is the case the CS doesn’t bother to remember and the BS cant forget. The counselor seemed to back her up on the notion that some people are good at remembering dates and others aren’t. Well she did remember our first official date as a couple. I know it was in December after finals but the date no. So its not like she can’t remember obviosly except when it is convenient to not remember. What is your take? One should the counselor have taken the stance that she shouldn’t have to remember? and does anyone not remember the d day and other d days or significant dates like going to a divorce lawyer? Just wondering if its just me.

    • Shifting Impressions September 28, 2017 at 4:48 pm #

      I have trouble remember dates bor….
      But d-day will be etched in my mind forever!!!! My husband would rather forget that day.

      I think it is rather common for the CS to NOT remember.

    • Hopeful September 28, 2017 at 8:42 pm #

      they are either lying they do not remember or repressed it. My husband has zero idea what the date is. He does know the general time frame due to where he was when he left his iPad at home and that is when I saw some odd texts. If he wanted to remember he could but that would not be pleasant for him. I agree though it would be nice to acknowledge the hurt even without knowing the actual date.

    • Puzzled September 29, 2017 at 8:59 am #

      I fully believe that we, the BS, remember the d-days and other significant heartbreak days because they are dates that completely upended our worlds. I don’t think my wife has any idea what day d-day 1 & 2 are but they will forever be etched into my memory. I can remember everything about those conversations. They destroyed me. D-day 1 was a liberation day for her. She even told me that “it’s such a relief to get it off her chest” when she told me that she was unhappy & then the dreaded ILYBNILWY.

      • TryingHard September 29, 2017 at 9:04 am #

        Hi Puzzled
        I heard the same. He was relieved. He also said later he wished he’d never told me. Just left without a word. Just not come home!! I know it’s a confusing time for all but I’m always amazed how similar their stories are. And yes March 19 and Aug 1 are indelible dates in my memory!

  18. TryingHard September 28, 2017 at 5:01 pm #

    SI–I’m reading that book too!!!!

    • Shifting Impressions September 28, 2017 at 7:32 pm #

      TH
      Makes sense we are reading the same book……we are married to brothers….after all! Lol!!!

      • TryingHard September 28, 2017 at 9:22 pm #

        Bwahahaha SI. True story 🙂

  19. Sama September 29, 2017 at 6:16 am #

    Hi
    I believe my husband is in midlife crisis.
    June 14 became distant, July 14 friend at work he was helping in a bad relationship, August 14 ret’d from holiday to a shameful faced husband. Oct 14 confronted him but denied anything, Nov 14 wanted space but stayed, 12 Dec 14 left to stop with a friend, 27.12.14 caught with other woman. Since then he has returned 10’times but as he works with the ow he always goes back to her. Said I didn’t listen but she did. Last return was Jan 17 to March 17. Has continued to have cake and eat it while living with ow and continued to say coming home until ow caught us having lunch together Aug 17. He has now vanished although he only lives 5 minutes up the road with ow. No contact with his kids for 11 wks and no contact with me for 8 wks.
    Has now filed for divorce under MY unreasonable behaviour that I had no empathy or care and embarrassed him! Also wants me to pay for it!
    Ow 16 yr younger never been married and no kids. My h is 50.
    I have stood and waited for 3 yrs and taken him back with open arms but he keeps hurting me and my children. I can do no more. Ow has pushed for divorce since the start and wants him to sell our home so I wonder where she thinks my kids and I will live? She now wants marriage and kids which he doesn’t. I do wonder that the sudden we can’t see or speak to each other ever again is perhaps she has now trapped him. I still have a small fragment of hope that he will one day come to his senses but who knows.
    He has never said he loves her and says he sees himself alone in the future.
    I have detached and don’t feel I can do any more other than agree within reason to divorce.
    I don’t know what else I can do.

  20. TheFirstWife September 29, 2017 at 8:43 am #

    Sama. I am so sorry for you and what you have endured. It is heartbreaking and so sad what has transpired with your H.

    If I can make a few well meaning suggestions – because I know this may be hard to swallow. He has shown you where his heart is. Not looking to say he loves you or doesn’t, but he clearly doesn’t want to be married.

    He has done the back and forth game for too long. Playing one against the other – you and OW.

    Why do you believe the OW is forcing you to sell your house? Because your cheating H said so? Well he is a known liar – proven liar and just believe HE may be forcing that issue.

    Your H has been allowed to be emotionally abusive to you. it is sad.

    My H had one foot out the door (okay 2 and 3/4) and I heard this for months. Finally the last time he said “Divorce” I put on my *itch boots and said “ok I am divorcing you!” on DDay2.

    I told him to get out. You can no longer live here and here is how it’s going to go. I stay in my house with kids and you will pay for it all. I get this and this and that and you will find a nearby apartment and kids will stay with both of us. Blah blah Blah

    I think you get my drift. It spun his head and we have Reconciled and no more cheating.

    And his mid life crisis was 12 months and would have been 212 months if I didn’t stand up to him.

    Since your H has filed for D – get an attorney or SOMEONE to fight for you. He should not be allowed to get away with calling the shots on the D.

    I also suggest counseling for you to deal with the roller coaster you are on.

    Stop focusing on him – put your energy into you! love yourself first – cherish you. Stop wasting your energy on someone who is not reciprocating – someone who loves you would not behave the way he has.

    Remove yourself from HIS drama. Only respond via text or email. Do not continue to listen to him whine and complain. That role is NO LONGER YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!

    Let him figure it out himself. He made this mess and dragged you down a black hole for years. Please climb out AND see the light of day. Without him.

    There is a whole world out there that doesn’t involve this drama. We are here to support and help you.

    Read the post here on Runaway Spouse. The comments are more than 330 b/c many of us were supporting someone who needed us. And all of our advice was so helpful – we could suspect what was about to happen next. because we have been through it.

    Please kerp posting even if just for support every so often.

    I wish I had this site during my H’s A. It would have made things easier AND stopped me from making the Classic BS mistakes.

    • Sama September 29, 2017 at 10:40 am #

      Thanks first wife.
      I have seen texts where she text ” you were never going to divorce her or sell the house. Also seen text where she asked my h to drug our aspergers son and poison me and cud he lose my phone for a couple of hours so she could destroy me. She has posted awful quotes aimed at me that my kids have seen.
      He would tell me all time he loved me but all he would say about her is there are feelings and she was there for him when he was really low.
      She thinks they are twin flames and that his coming back to me all the time was him pushing away her love as their love was so intense it frightened him.

      I need to pick myself up. I am in a mlc forum and have a group of girls that I connected with on a chat site that talk to each other every day.
      I have booked a solicitor and reached out to try to be amicable 1. For the kids and 2. The cost to no avail.

      Big girls pants need to be pulled up and fight.

      I have booked counselling and school have booked counselling for my kids.
      X

      • TheFirstWife September 29, 2017 at 11:30 am #

        I am so sorry for you.

        You need to retrieve those texts and go to the police!!!!

        She is just crazy. Plain & simple.

        and your H? well in my book he ain’t to smart either getting involved with someone like that. Where I am in US – those threats are tsken very very seriously.

      • Sarah P. September 29, 2017 at 4:28 pm #

        Hello Sama,

        I wanted to say that things just got real if the OW is asking to have your son drugged and you poisoned. Sama, if this is real, you need to hire a private detective to find a way to get those texts off of your H’s phone. You must get them and go to the police with this. This is very serious stuff and you must go to law enforcement.

        While your husband is having an affair, this is no longer about the affair. This is about the OW calling for bodily harm. There have been many cases where an OW and H conspired to harm a wife and they succeeded. Of course, those people are in jail, but it is not worth being a statistic.

  21. So broken September 29, 2017 at 11:01 am #

    My husband is 48, has a OW 20 years younger than him with a 2yr old and a 5yr old . Oct 3 is our 19 year anniversary, we have 4 kids D17,S14,D11,S8 that I have homeschooled from the start. He has filed for divorce and is convinced this girl is his soul mate and they are going to live happily ever after. Are they?

    • TheFirstWife September 29, 2017 at 11:40 am #

      Ummmm HELL no!!!!

      my H’s OW was 20 years younger and single. My H thought she was the love of his life then too.

      And at DDay2 when he was asked to leave (by me – see above post on details) he suddenly realized the OW was not all that!!

      I call it the Knight in shining Armor (KISA) syndrome. Poor pathetic younger woman needs a MAN to help her solve her problems and my idiot H was only too happy to help her. Seems like your H might be the same.

      They feel needed by the dumb OW. They want to make the oroblems disappear.

      The day I told my H to go ahead and be with her – well suddenly the A was over!!

      And he has never spoken to her since. And we have reconciled. And he has done everything possible to make amends. On his own. Google Affair Fog.

      It explains everything

      Trying to talk to someone during the fog is like talking to a wall. The cheater has to come to the realization on his/her own that the A is over.

      Very little the BS can do except protect yourself and kids. Get control of your finances so he doesn’t give or gift $ or spend $ on her. Get funds in your own name.

      Get yourself s therapist or counselor to help you on this roller coaster ride. It can save your sanity.

      So sorry you have to be here and part of this infidelity club. It sure does stink!!!

  22. TryingHard September 29, 2017 at 11:33 am #

    So Broken
    First I am so sorry for what you and your children are going through.

    Statistics say NO, they will def NOT go on to happily ever after. But that’s not important. What’s important is YOU right now. You are the sane parent that your children need and I hope you are getting the help and support you need right now. I hope you have your badass attorney lined up. I also hope you have a good therapist or if not a therapist a sister or friend or someone you can lean on.

    Take care of you right now. You come first. As far as he is concerned let’s just all wish him a collective Go to Hell!!!

  23. Sama September 29, 2017 at 11:37 am #

    I hope not. Most people tell it doesn’t last but has lasted 3 yrs but my friends say that is because he has also had me so has not had to fully commit to her wven though when not home he lives with her. He has had the best of both worlds. How she can trust him when has come home 10 times is beyond me.
    A friend said you can never sever a tie of 30 yrs and that he can’t love her if kept me in the back ground and that I didn’t don’t have a cheater for 27 yrs but they both got a cheater on day 1. I might of thought it cud last if he went to her and never came back but 3 yrs of yo yo hopefully says different. He may never come back to me but I hope it doesn’t work with her.
    Who knows. Perhaps he suddenly knows when she caught us together that he can’t lose her but mlc says 3-5yrs. I have had no contact before for 3 mths and it nearly killed him and had solicitors letters each time and threat of divorce and mediation but this time it is divorce papers so seems like the end of 30yrs.
    Wasted the last 3 yrs of my life.

    • TheFirstWife September 29, 2017 at 11:49 am #

      It’s not a waste of kast 3 years.

      Because when the D is final and he comes (or tries to come) crawling back for his ego boost from you – I suggest you do not respond.

      He will try to make himself believe he wasn’t a bad guy. but he was! You Do Not have to deal with him except about kuds and money. Shut every future conversation down. If he asks how you are – one word answers are ok but no answer is better. Just keep telling him “I will only discuss X znd Y with you”. Then stop talking.

      Text Or email is better. You can pull away and not respond at all.

      You are right his life has been good b/c he had you in his corner.

      Now you are being let out of his drama cage to go free!!! And you do not have to emotionally support him anymore.

      My therapist told me when you decide to D – you want to look back and know you did your absolute best but the M just coukd not work. And in this case those last 3 years were proof you did your best.

      You should have no regrets. He chose this outcome. And when you are free of this man-child of a H – I hope you can see that.

  24. Sama September 29, 2017 at 11:43 am #

    Just had to go pick my son up from school as he was struggling with it all. He has started smoking! He is 14 and aspergers. He has self harmed before. Mainly from the social media attacks and comments from ow. The latest is he shed his old family like dead skin and now has the best thing he has ever known and he was trapped into marriage and kids he never wanted. Actually he proposed after 10 yrs together and even asked my dads permission and he wanted children.
    School have booked doc appt for him today as an emergency. Breaks my heart whT my kids have gone through. Even 2 mths ago he told son he would take us abroad next year. Son even asked if he meant ow and he said no your mum!
    X

    • TheFirstWife September 29, 2017 at 11:53 am #

      Good Lord. I am praying for you.

      This guy – a father – is so stupid he thinks he can lie to his own children and that’s ok?

      Everyone needs to disengage from him (the idiot father and H) on ALL social media.

      Don’t let him add any more drama to your life. Get your lawyer to shut this down now.

    • Nearly Normal September 29, 2017 at 1:01 pm #

      Sama,

      the OW is flat out a monster. Broadcasting on social media that your son’s father never wanted him is horrific, even if there was no aspergers. My son is also on the spectrum, but he was mercifully spared such drama. I don’t know how he could have handled it.

      I hope and pray that you and your family weather this ugly storm.

  25. Sama September 29, 2017 at 3:45 pm #

    Yes she is proud that she took him from his family as apparently I am not a normal mentally functioning parent and. A text book case of parental alienation although how that works when she also tried to have me arrested for harrassement for emailing to much trying to get him to see his kids and that i was harassing her partner for money. No I was harassing my husband for child maintenance and to see his kids as we had no money for heating, electric or food and his sisters had to buy us food and heating. Also why would he when he has had the best food would he want mediocre. Well I must of been mediocre for 30 yrs! All this on social media that my children can see. I have took pics of it all and after today with school now saying how it affecting my children I will go to the police if one more thing. My h chose this vile woman over his wife, kids, home, memories and everything we accomplished? Sometimes I wish he would of left 10 yrs earlier. I am 50 in Nov. I keep repeating big girl pants up, big girl pants! My parents think I am mad to want this man still, I don’t want this man as I don’t know who he is.
    I want my h who he was and who he can be. Alien in his body, just looks like my h. X

    • Sarah P. September 29, 2017 at 4:33 pm #

      Hi Sama,

      You need to go to the police and you need to document every aspect of what is going on. You must get those texts off his phone where the OW is calling for bodily harm. I believe the OW is a sociopath, but you must have the hard, cold proof to show the police. Your case goes beyond the typical affair and it is time to get proof and the police involved. Also, even though you don’t want to, you must let him go for now. You must do this for your children if you are unable to do it for yourself. You are not dealing with people in reasonable frames of mind and you must protect your family emotionally and physically.

  26. TryingHard September 29, 2017 at 4:45 pm #

    Sama–what Sarah P said!!!!! There are no big girl panties big enough for this. You need the police to get involved.

    Sama do you love in a patriarchal society where the law is in the men’s side? If so go to you highest most powerful male family member and get his help. You cannot deal with this alone.

    You get the hell away from these psychopaths!!! I believe the will try to kill you and your children!!!

  27. Sama September 30, 2017 at 5:45 am #

    I live in the U.K. I did get the text where she asked him to cause us harm and got a crime no but the police wouldn’t do anything as she didn’t put that she will cause us harm directly. They did say it would help re any child custody case but he is not interested in seeing his children or they him. I find it unbelievable how a man can change like that and to keep me hanging on for three yrs to 2 days after saying again coming home to cut us dead. My friends say he will regret it and xmas will contact but I don’t think he will. He has always been back at xmas but leaves again straight after. He can have xmas with just her this yr. Xmas really is out of the window apart from small things for the kids due to the cost of divorce and solicitors. He has never not had me in his life other than 3 mths of no contact in 2015 where he turned up at my work crying. Ow now says she is a psychic but she didn’t see him keep coming round mine but she believes I made him feel guilty for wanting a better life with her.
    He can have his divorce but he won’t get my house. I will fight that. I still believe it is mlc but nothing I can do about it and really it’s gone too far now to ever reconcile. X

  28. TryingHard September 30, 2017 at 11:00 am #

    Sama– parents that abandon their children are nothing but rabid dogs! I hope you have your steely resolve set and you have a good lawyer. I’d venture a guess this is not his first affair. It’s only the one you know about. Get away from these delusional dangerous fools

  29. Hopeful1 September 30, 2017 at 3:57 pm #

    Hi Sama, I am sorry you are going through this . I am now married to my boyfriend whom I have been with for 24 years. It’s a long story, but my now husband hooked up with a past girlfriend, I believe in 2008 . I received a message on Facebook from her boyfriend that my husband broke them up. I did not believe it at the time, which I regret now ! They did have an emotional affair for many years. I still have trust issues since he told me they ended it . It is torture the nightmare I have been living. Triggers a lot ! Today is a bad day for me as I know her birthday is tomorrow .yuk ! He worked overtime yesterday and came home later than he had said. It is awful to feel this way. I feel for you that your husband has done this to you and your family! You need to take care of your family and yourself first! I know it helps to be able to vent to someone who has been there as well . Best wishes to you and I have been reading this website since I found it.

  30. freaked out October 1, 2017 at 8:54 pm #

    I have a very personal question. Why do I sometimes get aroused when discussing my boyfriend’s affair with him?

    I feel horrible/sick/betrayed/devastated, but there are times that I also find myself feeling turned on against my will (a mixture of arousal and feeling sexually violated) and I feel like I have a lot of sexual intensity that needs to be discharged along with the hurt and pain.

    Is this normal?

    Just to be clear, I do not ever linger on images of my bf with his affair partner, in fact I have to push those images as far out of my mind as possible because it hurts so much.

    • Hopeful1 October 2, 2017 at 9:05 am #

      Freaked out, to be honest with you I don’t think anything’s normal when you’re going through your husband having affairs ! I believe my husband was certainly not thinking about me when we were intimate ! Affairs rip your world apart , it is never going to be the same again! I believe we have to work on ourselves first , which I find is very hard still to this day for me! I am thankful for this blog that I can read for support. Best wishes to you! I hope you can find the answers to help you understand.

      • Hopeful1 October 2, 2017 at 9:07 am #

        Sorry, I mean your boyfriend! We were together as boyfriend and girlfriend for 22 years before we got married! Married 2 years now!

  31. Rose October 2, 2017 at 3:31 am #

    I’m late to the party here! Hub has had 3 EAs, one that lasted 2 years. I’m still missing lots of info. Lately he has decided to blame shift and pretend I’m the one having the affair! (Never have.) i travel a lot for work, and last week I called him and left voicemail, then went to bed. He called I me back but I was asleep. Next day I awoke to a message “Couldn’t call me back but could be on Facebook at 11:30?” I was pissed. He’s now stalking my FB…which is ALWAYS open on my phone so of course it would look like I was on (I have since fixed the “active” settings). I ignored him. Anyone have the tables turned on them? Our anniversary was a couple of weeks ago, and I posted on his timeline a wedding picture and a nice message. Did he put one on mine? No. But he had time to post 7 different political things in 2 days and the little heart/love symbol on many of his friends’ posts. Yes, I monitor what he is up to on FB because that’s been the culprit unfortunately.

    • TheFirstWife October 2, 2017 at 6:28 am #

      Hi Rose. Sorry you have had to join us here due to infidelity. But you ask some good questions. I don’t have answers but my experience may help.

      Today is my 29th wedding anniversary and 34th anniversary of our first date. We have survived two EAs (both his). First was 4 years and was in the 90s and last one was about a year (about 4 years ago).

      The second EA led to him wanting a divorce (D) and kicking me to the curb for a younger model. We did not D (obviously) but it was a horrible year.

      His 1st EA he denied, denied, denied. Stonewall and gaslight and all the typical cheater tactics. When I finally exploded he ended it. Finally!! Completely rug swept. No consequences.

      the 2nd EA – obviously more impact. He was “in love” and going to rescue her. We had 2 DDays and I was clueless. I made all the classic mistakes a betrayed spouse makes. Being too nice, trying to love him back to the marriage, pick me dance and clingy etc. pathetic!!

      The reason affair (A) #2 happened is becaus there was no consequence for A #1!

      And yes my H accused me of having an A with someone as justification for A#2. Never happened!! But he was looking for any excuse during A #2.

      I dare say your H doesn’t admit to any of the EAs. From my experience if there is no sex, most say it is not an A. Emotional cheating is cheating. If your spouse doesn’t say it or do it in front of you yhen it is cheating!

      So where do you go from here??

      Counseling. For you. And marriage counseling.

      Set boundaries. Tell him what you are willing to accept. FB or no FB. Online chatting or not. You need to have some clearly set rules and expectations.

      And there needs to be consequences to his actions. That is one of the reasons I suspect my H had EA2. No consequence to the 1st EA.

      At DDay2 – I told my H to please leave and I was going to D him!! I was done being plan B and a yo-yo. He wanted a D, change his mind. Wanted a D, chsnge his mind. Rinse lather repeat.

      The EA provides an ego boost. Self esteem issues – people think an EA will make it better when in fact it only makes it worse.

      Google Affair Fog and you will learn so much.

      Read the book Not Just Friends. Eye opening!!

      My H is not on FB but I am. He can read everything I ever posted b/c it is so generic. I have nothing to hide. I tell him who I am friends with – friends from school and family and people we both know. I would never embarass myself or my family like that.

      Unfortunately he may be of the opinion he is “not doing anything wrong”. Sorry but if your spouse isn’t happy with your behavior – then it is wrong.

      In my opinion you need to set boundaries on your social media plan for your M.

      • Hopeful1 October 2, 2017 at 8:40 am #

        Happy anniversary first of all ! My now husband has only strayed once, according to his ex girlfriend, with her. She was 15 and hasn’t apparently been able to let go! We were together for 20 years when she came back into his life due to a death in the family. Although I was told by a boyfriend of hers that my husband broke them up, in 2012 . Of course I didn’t believe him, i was pretty blind! Well here we are in 2017 and I still have trust issues! Do I believe they’re still in touch, yes but of course he says no ! His reasoning was they needed closure 😡 It took 4 years for that . Really? I still have good days and bad days. Oh and the can’t remember line ! Bull her birthday was yesterday and he says he doesn’t remember her birthday. I just can’t wrap my head around him saying this ! I believe he was in a mlc for sure . Needed to vent 😀

      • Hopeful1 October 2, 2017 at 8:44 am #

        The first wife , I also have that book , not just friends and more . Good read! Have a great day! And I hope you have a great anniversary today 💐

        • TheFirstWife October 2, 2017 at 9:27 am #

          Thank you for the kind wishes. It will be a good day for us.

          • Hopeful1 October 2, 2017 at 10:14 am #

            Very happy to hear !

          • Nearly Normal October 2, 2017 at 11:23 am #

            Happy Anniversary!

            Small world – our 29th was yesterday.

            Best wishes

            • TheFirstWife October 2, 2017 at 9:43 pm #

              Congrats to you. Hope it was a good day!

      • Rose October 2, 2017 at 12:40 pm #

        We tried counseling. Actually I worked with Linda for a while but both she and numerous other counselors I saw said the same thing…if he isn’t willing to change, we can’t really help. The one marriage counselor we saw…well, suffice to say she told us we needed to see individual counselors before she could help us. So he went to 4 visits and said he was cured. He was not and is not. Every single time he was bored, lonely, and looking to boost his ego. The EA that lasted 2 years—after 3 months when I found out, he promised no contact. Instead they communicated through his work email and phone. I’m kind of at a loss here. All last year, he started criticizing my clothes, shoes, wearing perfume and jewelry…you know, all those things you DO at work. Then he threw and broke my phone for communicating with friends (female) he thought were affairs. He really just went off the deep end, and I’m sure it was to make himself look better. The gaslighting got ridiculous, too, but I called him on it and recognized when it happened (it doesn’t know because he knows I’m on to him). His lies continue, however. His stalking me continues, though. I got a burner phone NOT because I was having an affair but just so there was nothing he could question on our bill. I turned off all activity on Google. I’ve searched the car for GPS devices, and I had my phone and computers checked for monitors. It’s gotten so extreme I can’t even believe I’m writing this.

        • Shifting Impressions October 2, 2017 at 1:27 pm #

          Rose
          I hope you realize this is abuse…pure and simple. This type of control and behavior is absolutely unacceptable. As Trying Hard said….YOU NEED TO KEEP YOURSELF SAFE!!!

          You are right….this is extreme and could lead to much worse.

          • Rose October 3, 2017 at 4:35 pm #

            It IS abuse. You are correct. I told him so last December when on Christmas, after preparing breakfast and lunch, and did presents and cleanup, and still had dinner to prepare for the whole family, I was too exhausted for sex. He blew up, shone a light in my face and said I was mentally deficient. Because and only because it was Christmas, I didn’t walk out. That was the last time anything like that happened. But the control issues didn’t start until after his last EA was discovered, and I’m not sure why that is. Blame shifting to make himself feel better? I just finished “Big Little Lies” and if anyone has seen that, some of it rang true. Not the physical stuff because he’s never hit me. But the control…the wanting sex right before they had to be somewhere on time and she refused…the wanting sex and me refusing and getting blamed for loving the dogs/children/whatever else life throws at you more than him. Honestly this is not the man I married. We all change, it’s true, but this is ridiculous. The bad part is that he is now retired (early, waiting for disability) and when I’m not traveling, I have to work at home. So he’s always here. I have a bag, credit cards and a bank account in my name. I am the ONLY one who knows all the finance info. He’s always been one to help little old ladies across the street–I was used to that–but when it got to be younger ladies who pretended to need help, only for him to be used and abused (and then me in return), he is on notice. He did try to sneak one in earlier this year but my son alerted me and I put an end to it immediately. He was looking for a car with our son and saw someone he found on Craigslist. Turned out to be just his type…single mom with a baby who desperately needed money. There were about 50 messages a day while I was gone, and then it ended. I confronted him. He screamed and said it was nothing, that she kept hitting him up. He’s an idiot. I told him do it again and I walk. That’s when I put my bag together and stuff for my puppy as well, and yes, I have a cousin to stay with in another state, and he has no idea where she lives.

  32. TryingHard October 2, 2017 at 1:13 pm #

    Hi Rose–So what is your plan of action? Especially since he won’t get the help that he so obviously needs.

    Actually I don’t think you are truly fully aware of what he’s doing. You say EA but I have a gut feeling there is much more you don’t know about this guy.

    Have you done a thorough credit check on him? Have you hired a PI to investigate him? I think the EA is just the tip of the icebergs you are likely to find if you dare look deeper.

    This is NOT normal behavior. And given that he has such a vendetta where you are concerned I do not put anything past him. He sounds very desperate to me.

    I hope first and foremost you are keeping yourself safe. I’d do some further digging and investigating him. Don’t do it yourself, hire it done.

    • TryingHard October 2, 2017 at 2:31 pm #

      SI– I guess I’ve watched my fair share of 48 Hours and 20/20 to know what people are capable of. They snap, they are delusional, they live in fantasy worlds, they think they are in control. It goes on and on.

      Sure we all want to think these men and women will “snap out of it” or come out of that “fog” but sometimes they don’t and at that point you have got to ask yourself “is my safety and well being worth this guy/girl?” In fact sometimes the answer is not only NO but Hell NO!!

      I would not be the one willing to wait around to find out what happens next. And this applies to a couple other posters here not just Rose.

      • Shifting Impressions October 2, 2017 at 4:20 pm #

        TH, I hear you…..SAFTEY FIRST….ABOVE ALL ELSE!!!! We are on the same page for sure.

  33. TryingHard October 2, 2017 at 4:44 pm #

    Thanks SI because sometimes I think my red flags are waving a little too fiercely. LOL 48 Hours and 20/20 don’t help either!!!

    I don’t know I’m just getting a real gut feeling about this.

  34. Shifting Impressions October 2, 2017 at 5:14 pm #

    I agree TH
    I wrote my first response to Rose before I read yours. The whole control thing is huge red flag!! It’s a huge part of the cycle of abuse and often leads to domestic violence.

    Rose….please please get some professional help. The counselors can’t help him if he is not willing to change but Rose, they can help you. You have choices….please get help for you!!!

  35. Rose October 2, 2017 at 5:59 pm #

    Thanks for all the comments. I’m okay. He is a “screamer” but has never ever been physically violent, and in December he screamed, and I told him just ONE MORE TIME and I’m out. He hasn’t done it since. He also has never apologized for his behavior. I have to travel a lot in my new job, and it’s stressful–I just can’t go through this added stress again when I’m traveling. No, he doesn’t believe he did anything wrong, of course. He was just trying to “help” them. Uh huh. He doesn’t believe they were affairs, of course. For various reasons I am 99.9% sure there was no sex involved except the kind that’s texted. He’s not too tech savvy, but I am and am able to do surveillance. BUT I DON’T WANT TO LIVE LIKE THIS. Three times this year I have asked for a conversation. Once that was blame shifted (it’s all my fault); the other two times, I was ignored. I just shut up now.

    • TheFirstWife October 2, 2017 at 9:59 pm #

      Rose. I don’t know how long you have been M but it doesn’t matter.

      I learned from my H’s first EA that because I rug swept and he had no consequences – it allowed him to have a second A. The second almost led to our D (affair fog and true love with OW and all that crap).

      I never had “proof” of 1st EA – it was before texts and emails on phones. But I knew it was going on. Sadly I ignored it the first 3 years but by the last year I confronted him and he stonewalled and gaslit and denied. In his mind no sex = no A.

      Second time I did the 180 and at DDay2 I was very clear in what was going to happen. I told him to get out and I was going to D him. I had enough.

      So there were very severe consequences and he has tried to make amends every day. He admits all he did was wrong.

      I don’t think your H will change his position but that doesn’t mean you have to stand idly by.

      You have power and control in being able to dictate WHAT you will accept it tolerate. And you have the right to set clear boundaries in this case.

      And he can either live within those boundaries or not. And if he CHOOSES not to do that, he will have to suffer the consequences – whatever they are.

      Read about the 180 or detaching from him. Not to be mean but to protect yourself. Because the odds are there will be another episode if his “not cheating”.

      Why not? It works for him AND it is tolerated by you. He gets exactly what he wants. You don’t!!

      I say “foul” to that! You can calmly explain yourself to him. Tell him you will no longer tolerate this or that behavior. Continue it and our M will not last. It is not a threat. It is your way of being honest and forthcoming with him.

      Be prepared to follow through. My H NEVER thought I woukd tell him to get out and I was divorcing him. I was a doormat and very easy going for 25 years. I supported him 200%.

      But now it is my needs and happiness first. For me. Not selfish but my happiness is my priority. Not his. I make myself happy first and then everyone else.

      And you should too.

    • Shifting Impressions October 2, 2017 at 11:49 pm #

      Hi Rose
      I hope you don’t take offense to what I am about to say, but I feel I need to say it anyway. You seem to be “minimizing” your husband’s behavior.

      Screaming
      Controlling
      Blaming
      Stalking
      No accountability for his behavior

      Those are abusive behaviors. Are you really okay? You just shut up? Is that how you want to live? Physical abuse is only one aspect of abuse. The above behaviors can be precursors to physical abuse. For your own sake please don’t minimize what’s going on. Remember what you wrote “It’s gotten so extreme, I can’t even believe I’m writing this”. Those are your words. I don’t believe you are okay…. Please find help

    • Hopeful1 October 3, 2017 at 6:16 am #

      Rose, my husband is really layed back , but while in he was in his affair he would get angry if I would try to talk to him about what he was doing! He one time punched a hole in the closet door . I believe that was his way of getting me to stop the conversation regarding his affair . Gaslighting ! He was never a violent man ! Please stay safe !

  36. JTK October 2, 2017 at 10:48 pm #

    My dday was Christmas finding an email regarding a business trip my W and the OM took just before Christmas. I just figured out through a FB posting that while they were gaving a “good time” together, the trip was during the OM’s wedding anniversary. That freakin SOB. What a scumbag! I know my W had to know that too. I am so angry!!!

    • Shifting Impressions October 2, 2017 at 11:52 pm #

      JTK
      Yup….affairs are pure selfishness. I totally get your anger!!

  37. Hopeful1 October 3, 2017 at 6:31 am #

    Yes , you will have many emotions when finding out in bits and pieces , as I also did , I found out my husband drove 2 hours to see her when I went out of town. I found out through my sister in laws Facebook, when she had contacted her . I was floored she knew! And upset because she didn’t tell me! She was enabling her brother! That was very hurtful!

    • TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 8:04 am #

      Hopeful1. Wow your SIL is no friend. What a creep!!

      • Hopeful1 October 3, 2017 at 8:20 am #

        Trying hard, this was early on when it started. But thank God she realized what she was doing and came around and stood up for me her and her brother got in the biggest screaming match I’ve ever seen because she was actually sticking up for me, and telling him to make a choice so I could have some peace in my life. But yes we are very close and it was hurtful at the time . I had left him once early on and come back, and she tried to stop me because I think she knew it wasn’t over yet so she was protecting me as well. But thank you 😊

        • TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 9:21 am #

          Hopeful1–. Good I am happy she came around and you have an ally. We need all the support we can get

          I think people just don’t know what to do. My h moved in with his sister a few doors down from our home. I don’t know why. The week before he’d moved into the OWs shack and he saw the real person during that time. He knew he’d made the biggest mistake of his life. I think moving with his sister allowed him to still see me. But my SIL was a great ally during that time. She was constantly telling him how effed up he was but she also adores him. Poor thing she was also a great comfort to me as well!!

  38. TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 8:03 am #

    Rose. I believe you are being a little too passive about this as well. I’m glad you’re tech savvy and have what little information you have. But that’s only one slice. When people cheat they also cheat financially. I’m going suggest that you at the very least do a credit check on him. I’ve heard of people emptying out retirement funds and racking up enormous credit card bills to fund their addictions to cheating. They set up P.O. Boxes to get the bills etc. I believe your husband is being quite underhanded and wouldn’t put doing this past him or any other cheater for that matter.

    I never believed my h would steal from us to support another woman but he did. All unbeknownst to me. The lying and the gaslighting know no limits. Please don’t just “shut up”. I understand your not wanting to argue or try to convince him to get the help your marriage obviously needs. Maybe you’re just too fearful to rock the boat. But it’s not you rocking that boat, it’s him. You need to protect yourself both emotionally, physically and financially.

    None of us could believe what our husbands were capable of and yet here we are with our own horror stories of betrayal. Before I “knew” I had suspicions, red flags. Of course I minimized them and blamed myself for being suspicious and dramatic but maybe down deep I just didn’t want to rock that boat. Stupid me, lesson learned. Don’t be that person Rose. Do your due diligence and get the info you need to make a good rational decision going forward with this guy. With you traveling and gone a lot he’s got lots of alone time to plan and scheme. He’s shown tremendous disrespect to you, contempt even by turning the cheating tables on to you. That is pure contempt and it’s dangerous.

    I hope you will take the advice here seriously. Sometimes when you’re in such situations you can’t see the forest for the trees. See the forest you’re in Rose. Open your eyes. Do not give him any benefit of the doubt based on what you think you know. Because actually you know very little.

    I’m not trying to be cruel or tell you your marriage is over. But something very rotten is going on!!! Please take care and get very smart for your own sake.

    • Hopeful1 October 3, 2017 at 12:41 pm #

      Thank god my husband is a tight wad 👍I am sure he wasn’t spending a lot of money on his mistress lol

  39. TheFirstWife October 3, 2017 at 9:00 am #

    I had no idea about his last A.

    No missing $.

    No late nights. No MIA

  40. TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 10:34 am #

    TFW–Nope no late nights here either. He would leave during the day. She got off at 3. They would also meet on Saturdays when he was “working” because he needed “quiet time” at the office. Affairs don’t require a lot of time. I am still shocked he took off work to go meet her. I have begged, BEGGED him to take time off to do certain things and he never could. Well there’s always time for golf but with the exception of golf he never took off work.

    Also he/we own our own business. He had a separate account for business. Actually many accounts/business names. It took me getting into his computer remotely and finding an excel spreadsheet that he used to keep track of the expenditures to rehab her shack. I also found a small pocket calendar where he kept track of the cash he gave her. He always has cash.

    So while no there were never any funds missing from our joint account what he did is probably embezzlement from his own company and certainly embezzlement from our marital funds.

    On the surface everything looked normal just as he planned. He never acted rude to me. Never argued or fought. He just quietly led his double life. I know for a fact he fantasized about ways to get me out of the picture. Not murder but making my life miserable by ignoring me and not standing up for me with regards to his parents abuse that I would leave him. Nothing overt but certainly planned. Once he saw what he’d traded our life in for he woke up out of his imposed fantasy. By then it was too late. He kept asking her to refinance her house to pay him back for what he’d spent but she never did. There was no way she could have refinanced. She had no credit. I only found this out when I had a friend at the courthouse look up all her bankruptcies and law suits for money she owed. He had no knowledge of this until I showed him. LOL he trusted her when she said she was applying for a loan. She lied. So DDay happened and she never paid him back! Can I please have a collective WHAT A DUMBASS?

    Lesson is you don’t know what you don’t know.

  41. TheFirstWife October 3, 2017 at 12:08 pm #

    TH. Wow!!! I am in shock and you are right. You don’t know what you don’t know.

    That is why I have always managed our $ and investments and taxes. I even took out new life insurance and put me as the account holder so he cannot make any changes and cut me out as beneficiary (for kids sake not mine).

    I am so sorry to hear you had to suffer from a financial impact plus the emotional impact.

    Does your H feel like a fool now? Did he see he was being used??

  42. TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 12:53 pm #

    Bwahahahah so was mine!!! That’s what you think!!! Everything you think you “know” about your cheater you can throw it out the window. I bet somehow he found money to spend on her just to be a big shot!!! They always spend money on them!

    • TheFirstWife October 3, 2017 at 2:22 pm #

      I am sure he spent $ on OW. But it was only a handful of times and it was maybe drinks or dinner. Nothing outrageous.

      I see the bank account and his pay is direct deposit – and given his job situation he had no extra funds to wine & dine (and was not paid according to his contract by the employer he had at the time). So there were very little funds available.

      Now every month I look very closely at his credit cards. Still nothing surprising.

  43. TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 2:36 pm #

    TFW– So when he left me that night he picked her up and they went to a casino/hotel in the next town by me. He hates casinos and hates gambling but I’m thinking he did it because it was her suggestion as she was an addict and it was far enough away. Then he moved in with her for a week where he found out she was having an affair with her ex step son, where she and he were selling marijuana out of the house he financed and helped her rehab(actually she did nothing to rehab it he did it all!!!), she had a gambling addiction and she drank a case of beer every night. Her mask slipped and he saw her for who she really was.

    Not only was she getting payola from my husband but her other boyfriend/ ex step son!! So the truth hit him squarely in the face. Realizing he was in it for about 50k he was desperate to get her to refinance her loan on the house and pay him back. Of course she drug her feet on refi as she KNEW she’d never get financing with her credit. He had no idea about her credit situation. It took me digging into her past to find it. Actually I got a phone call from a credit card company after I confiscated her phone that we (my company) owned. It was a collection agency!! So my h kept hanging in there hoping for the financing to come through and he would get back the 50k and he could cut her loose. Never happened. Shocking right?

    A couple months ago an architect with whom we have been doing business with for years dropped off some plans along with the rest of the files he had from all the other work he had done for us because he is retiring and in there were all the notes and pictures and arch drawings for her house. I made copies of everything and took the originals to him. He turned white. WHITE I tell you. I didn’t say a word until that night. He came home after me with tears in his eyes apologizing and we talked and yes he admitted how stupid he was. He admitted he finally figured out she was using him for what he could do for her financially. Poor thing really convinced himself she adored his sexual prowess and winning personality!!!

    I too am in charge of all the financials at home. I always have been. He never touches our joint account. It never even occurred to me he would pilfer from his own business account. He can withdraw and he gets a 1099 at the end of the year as income so he was indeed stealing from me too. Now my name is on that account too but I have my own account with only my name on it as well. He knows all about it.

    But when people feel entitled they can and will do whatever it takes. This is the same guy who would never dream of cheating at sports. Never dream of not paying for something in a restaurant, never dream of keeping the wrong change, insists on paying his own way, never turns in claims to insurance, you name it. He believed whatever you took that was honest you would have to pay back double. His own superstition. But this was different. He was under her spell. A spell he concocted in his own little delusional mind!

    I know that was a long answer to your questions but YES now he sees what a fool he was. He’s quite ashamed and that shame while it may humble him it doesn’t do much as far as really examining how all that happened. But like he said that night after I got those arch drawings “I thought I was really a big shot!!”

  44. TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 3:50 pm #

    Rose— UGH right out of the Cheaters 101 handbook. Poor little timid forest creatures just can’t remember!

  45. Rose October 3, 2017 at 4:46 pm #

    Here’s a good one. We were having a discussion–sometimes I bait him into answering questions, and it boggles me when he is so ignorant. I told him he has never been MY white knight…not to his EAs, not to his family, or anyone. He has never defended me. His last EA…I sent her a nastygram from his email address about what a whore she was and never to contact him (“me”) again. He was “going” to do that himself, he said. Except he was livid when he read it, told her that I was the one who wrote it and that he was sorry I was so mean but yes, he would have to go no contact. He somehow doesn’t remember that one, but if you guys are anything like me you have saved every single email, every single text, etc., even though you mean to get rid of them some day. 🙁

  46. Micah October 3, 2017 at 5:33 pm #

    I am having such a hard time right now and I suppose I am looking for some advise and support. My husband left 2 days after we had our first baby to a military school for a month and came back and told me he was in love with a girl he met there and would be leaving to be with her because she was more involved in things he was interested in and she was living a more relaxed lifestyle closer to the one he wants for himself rather than the one he had now. They had no sexual interactions just an EA but I feel like it’s just as bad.I did take responsiblity for the fact that i had not put much effort forth into being more involved in things he is passionate about and for caring more about what society and our families thought rather than what we needed to be close as a couple. He said that for me to be open to these things is all he wanted and he stayed and we are working things out.But… I just feel betrayed, and unsure if I can ever trust him again. I do love him very much and do feel that I strive to be a better person because of him, but how could he think that I have never felt these things in our relationship but I never chose to let someone else in. Oh and did i mention that he will be leaving for a year long deployment in 1 month that she will be on. Idk i’m just struggling.

    • Nearly Normal October 4, 2017 at 2:37 pm #

      Micah,

      So sorry for the situation you find yourself in. Please know that the people here have felt or are feeling the same pain.

      Please do not take too much responsibility on yourself. You say that you did not put much effort into being more involved in things he is passionate about. That may be true, but it does not excuse what he did. No wife will ever be perfect, and quite frankly your shortcomings sound very minor compared to what he did. There is no excuse for his behavior.

      Bravo to you for working on things with him. But be sure that you take time to care for yourself. Working on the marriage (I assume that’s what you mean.) is not the same as getting healing from the betrayal. I hope you can get individual counseling, and/or someone to talk to. I went 16 years on my own, and trust me, you don’t want to go that route. Get whatever support you can. Even if your husband may want to support you, you will need as much as you can get. Especially when you are caring for a young one, you need to make sure that your needs are met.

      You still do not trust him with the coming deployment. Who could blame you? He failed you, big time. Can you talk to him about your fears? He should give you reassurances that set your heart at ease, but that may not be possible this soon after the EA. Get whatever promises you can out of his sorry ass before he goes.

      Perhaps this will help a little.

    • Shifting Impressions October 4, 2017 at 8:27 pm #

      Micah
      If that is “all he wanted” he should have asked you rather than cheat….and yes emotional affairs constitute as cheating.

      I am so sorry you are going through this…..and right after having a baby….your emotions must be all over the map!!!

      You are in no way responsible for your husband’s poor choices!!! Please take care of you. Do you have someone you can confide in? Or perhaps some counseling?

      Another thing that can be helpful is to educate yourself about infidelity. The book NOT JUST FRIENDS by Shirley Glass is an excellent read.

      Nearly Normal is right…..anyone that has been betrayed this way knows the pain you are feeling. But take note…the cheating spouses have a way of twisting things around in their own best interest. The sentiment I pick up from your post is “If you change….he will stay”. That is so backwards…..It should be if “he changes you might let him stay”. Hold him accountable for his betrayal and lies! I know how difficult that very thought is, especially with new baby. Please don’t let him turn this on you.

      Take care of you and your new little one.

  47. CMan October 3, 2017 at 5:40 pm #

    Hi all
    a quick summary, does any of this sound vaguely familiar?!
    – bomb drop New Year ’17 (looked at a stream of intimate phone messages and didn’t really hide the fact I was doing it)
    – OM is a work colleague
    – I confront a few days later
    – EA is denied but I manage to tease some info out but “everything is in control” as the OM is “lonely”
    – my gut instincts come into play and I know it is continuing
    – I start to access cell messages in Feb
    – EA intensifies through the months, I decide to stay in limbo due to our child
    – have had enough by June and confront big time (all but full PA by this stage)
    – I say I am prepared to let her go and she can go to him but apparently this won’t happen as he won’t be leaving his W (who doesn’t know)
    – we start MC immediately (as recommended by my lawyer who is now fully briefed on situation)
    – stop monitoring cell phone at same time
    – our relationship now at new level of intimacy and understanding, we have a wonderful holiday as a family
    – yet gut instinct suggests it is still going on primarily because of the work situation (I did not want to control her I said at the time of the confrontation and sort of knew she wouldn’t give up a job she loves)
    – so, Ladies and Gentlemen do we have a cake eating situation?

    with many thanks

    • TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 9:06 pm #

      Hi CMan—. Short answer? Yes. It’s probably still going on in some level. Or she’s just gone deeper underground. The sex sounds like hysterical bonding to me. Ask me how I know 😳

      • CMan October 4, 2017 at 3:26 am #

        Think you’re right. Her new phone by a very well known manufacturer has an encrypted partition which has been activated. But I decided not to keep checking for the sake of my sanity. Talk about a year of two halves. Dare I ask how you know about the bonding?

        • TryingHard October 4, 2017 at 9:01 am #

          Cman—. Lol. I’m sure you’ve got a good imgination. It was crazy. I didn’t think my joints could still move like that!!! And let’s just say I watched some YouTube for lessons 😳

          Hysterical bonding is not to be taken lightly. It’s all smoke and mirrors. They can get done and seem perfectly happy and 10 minutes later they are contacting the AP. But it’s part of the process too I’m guessing. I’d google it if I were you to become more familiar with it.

          Don’t stop looking Cman. Don’t be the ostrich with your head in the sand. It’s no way to live. It causes resentment and contempt and you may as well divorce. You have a right to know what’s going on in your marriage and with her. Crazy things happen when you aren’t always watching. But I get what you are saying. It’s exhausting and crazy making!!! The fact she’s installed the encryption speaks volumes

          • Shifting Impressions October 4, 2017 at 10:51 am #

            TH
            YouTube videos, huh…..who knew. Lol!!!!

    • Hopeful1 October 4, 2017 at 8:03 am #

      Hi cman , I understand where you are coming from. I had no idea what my husband had been doing! He had been talking to his ex girlfriend for 2 years and in 2010 her boyfriend of 3 years tried to tell me what was going on! I did not believe him ! He told me my now husband that he broke them I said he was mistaken. 2 years later after a death in the family and it escalated and I found tons of texts between them. I finally moved out and after 5 days he asked me to come home. Long story short it went on for 2 more years! It is now 2017, and I still believe that they are still in contact. I can’t say for sure but he hid it so well before and he is very tech savvy! If there’s a will i am sure there is a way! I guess if I am meant to know I will eventually find out. She is married now and so are we after 20 years of being together! I hope I am wrong! I want to believe, but it is hard to yet ! Best wishes I hope you find peace !

  48. Shifting Impressions October 3, 2017 at 9:02 pm #

    CMan
    I’m sorry you are going through this. You might have a cake eating situation. I would listen to my gut if I were you. I think many of us stop checking all the time but it’s been almost four years and I still check occasionally.

  49. TryingHard October 3, 2017 at 9:03 pm #

    TFW-/ then he probably only spent the minimum on her. Be glad

    My h did what he did because he could. He thought he was in control of the whole affair. Lol she used him for what she could get. Yes I was none the wiser but who was really in contro?! I say she was. She played him big time. She was a pro and he was no match for her. She played to his fragile ego. He knows that now. Day late and a dollar short.

    He admitted it took me to get her out of our lives. I left no stone unturned and I called her on it. She slunk her way back under the rock from where she came. But damn I didn’t ask for it, he did. Why wasn’t he man enough to cut her loose? Ugh so dumb

  50. TheFirstWife October 3, 2017 at 10:19 pm #

    I call it the KISA syndrome. The knight in shining armor to the rescue.

    HUGE ego boost.

    Dumb Dumbs they are – I swear. These women know how to play them don’t they?

    • Hopeful1 October 4, 2017 at 8:16 am #

      The first wife, I absolutely agree , all the sob story’s she told him ! Never mind all the issues I was having! Ugh, she told him about the abuse her ex did… umm I went through it to with my first husband, he was a serial cheater and abusive ! They hid their affair well! Even though I was told by her ex boyfriend what was going on . They are sure pieces of work. I now realize life will never be the same! I want peace as I am soon to be 64 .

  51. TryingHard October 4, 2017 at 11:11 am #

    SI–I’m blushing actually 🙂 YouTubes are very informative is all I’m saying!!!! There may be snow on the roof, but there’s still fire in the furnace as my father used to say!

    • Shifting Impressions October 4, 2017 at 11:25 am #

      TH
      Hmm….could use a little “information” around here!!! Lol!!!!

  52. CMan October 4, 2017 at 6:05 pm #

    there are still subtle ways of checking outside of the messages themselves (which ironically cannot be restricted to a partitioned part of the phone!) OK off to look up some youtube videos (am feeling a bit “hysterical”…)

    • TryingHard October 4, 2017 at 7:49 pm #

      Cman—. Bwahahaha. Have fun!

      • CMan October 7, 2017 at 5:31 am #

        OK def cake eating. My W was out with the girls last night and got quite trashed so I thought this would be a good opportunity to check for “mistakes”. As said before I have no intention of looking at cell messages but I did see that a certain well known instant messaging service had been used and lo and behold she had been communicating with the OM during the evening. Quite sad that she was sharing the same messages between the two of us. Oh well can’t really do the “final” confrontation without some sort of concrete evidence so I will just bide my time. Such a shame as we are more close now than we’ve ever been. Guess it must be love….

        • Rose October 7, 2017 at 11:10 am #

          How did you find text messages?? My H was SO good about deleting them. And I’d say text messages are pretty concrete evidence.

          • Angela October 20, 2017 at 9:50 pm #

            You can get copies of text messages from any phone you own from the phone company. You might have to have a friend “pretend” to be a male or female voice, whichever you need, the address, and last 4 digits of SSN. that’s how I acquired copies of deleted texts.

        • TheFirstWife October 7, 2017 at 11:26 am #

          CMan

          So sorry for you. I see that you ate looking for solid proof or evidence.

          So to review :

          She has encrypted phone
          She has passwords on phone
          She was in contact with the OM very recently

          You have not yet confronted her because you are looking for “evidence”.

          I am going to give it to you straight and ftom experience. I was pretty much (snd still am) a doormat as I don’t slways say no. I am also a bit independent too. There were a few things that occurred during my ️M I could not change – despite 15 years of asking my H to let me know when he was going to be late. Simple courtesy.

          He refused. Woukd not do it so I finally stopped asking.

          Now – he would not even think of doing that b/c after DDay2 and his 2nd A it will not be tolerated.

          You see he thought I was just either stupid or willing to put up with his behavior. I was to a point.

          I have stood my ground in the past. And most times it was successful. But when it came to his A – there was no way in hell that was going to fly.

          I never needed evidence even though the first few months I had it. I told him to go and be with her b/c obviously that is what he wanted. But he swore it was me he wanted. And I believed him. And then the A started up again two months later and I had no idea. But the last week or so he asked for a D. I asked if OW was involved and he said “oh no it’s not you its me”. (That was a lie obviously the OW was still in the picture).

          So I had my plan B in place and I had my therapist and mediator plan of action. I financially protected myself and was planning on selling our home. Kids would stay with me (b/c he travels extensively) but we would have joint custody.

          When DDay2 occurred and it blew up – I did not care about evidence. I knew he was cheating and I had no proof BUT the OW’s word they were together.

          That was enough. The disrespect and lying from him was no longer tolerated. I told him to leave and he refused. So I made a call and told him he was going to stay with friends. I MADE IT HAPPEN and he no longer had any say. He was no longer in control.

          I should have told him to get out at DDay1. I told him he could leave / as a choice. But I should have demanded it.

          I tried to be kind and supportive and “let’s work this out together” attitude.

          But he counted on that. No disruption. Life as usual. He could do what he wanted BECAUSE I ALLOWED IT!!!

          My suggestion is that you DO NOT need proof!! You need to take action and confront. And here is what you say:

          My dear wife (insert name) – I know you have been having an inappropriate relationship with OM (insert name). I have been patient in hoping this would end. But you have been cheating on me. It is not a topic for discussion IT IS A FACT!

          By (pick a date) next week I would like you to move out. I will no longer tolerate this.

          You have not committed to this M and it is time we recognize this is not accepted.

          AND THEN LEAVE RHE ROOM OR HOUSE.

          It is not open for discussion. That will allow her to continue to lie. Do not let that occur.

          Anything she says will be a lie. Do not fall victim to it.

          If she goes off the deep end crying – become immune to it because if you don’t stand your ground now – she will continue the A.

          And have your plan B in place. Therapy lawyer. Support team. Money. Bank accounts.

          Cancel ALL joint credit cards. Change your life insurance. Separate financially.

          And if you do reconcile – get a post nup signed by her. If she cheats again she loses assets and alimony. Any $ in your sole name are not marital assets. she has no entitlement in a D.

          Take back your control. It will restore your self esteem and confidence.

          • CMan October 7, 2017 at 1:54 pm #

            Just to clarify I confronted at the beginner of the year after blatantly checking her phone in the dark knowing she could see it. Then in June she did not know I had access to texts I made out she was talking in her sleep which did the trick this time I will not be looking at any more messages and am banking on a humdinger of a mistake being made in her part

            Thanks again

            • TheFirstWife October 7, 2017 at 4:33 pm #

              CMan.

              I think it is sad that you have already confronted but yet she continued to disrespect you and continue the A.

              She could have made different chouces and either

              Admitted it and stopped
              Admitted it and continued
              Denied it and stopped
              Admitted it and recommitted to the M
              Denied it and stopped and recommitted to the M

              All completely valid choices but the difference is that she woukd have shown some respect for you.

              Right now her existence depends and relies on the fact she expects you to do nothing. And this the pattern continues.

              If I learned ANYTHING from my H’s 4 year EA is that doing nothing (other than confronting) does not work. I confronted him for more than a year during his EA (first A). It wasn’t until I exploded with anger and didn’t speak to him for 3 days did it stop. Finally.

              BUT my 2nd mistake was to allow him to rug sweep. Never spoke about it again. Because he was an expert at making me think I was just crazy and jealous. This “friend” of his pretended to be my friend too.

              And thus his last A occurred b/c there were no consequences to his first EA. But he did admit to OW#2 about OW#1. And that is how I learned he KNEW the first EA was wrong but would never admit it to me.

              And now our marriage dynamics have changed.

              But I will always be resentful that I had to act more like the boundary or ethics cop than his wife.

              I hope you can see that watching and waiting may not be the best approach b/c the cheater is only too happy to have things as status quo. In fact they count on it and that helps keep the A alive.

              Ask anyone here in EAJ what happens in DDay. You will see that is when many A end. Not all – not trying to generalize. But for many cheaters – DDay and hearing the words “get out” are the wake up call they need.

        • TheFirstWife October 7, 2017 at 11:33 am #

          CMan

          There was a guy who posted on here briefly. Typical story – W had A. He found out and confronted.

          He told her we can get past this but do not lie. Be honest.

          First 48 hours or so were lies upon lies from her. he had enough!! He saw a lawyer in Monday and filed for D and saw a therapist on Tuesday.

          He D her very quickly.

          I admired him b/c he saw what was ahead and decided he wasn’t going down that path. Lies. Trickling of truth and details of A.

          She never saw it coming and I think he ended up happier out from under the nightmare of the A.

          Oh and the OM dumped his W (I believe for a younger girl). Lol

  53. Hopeful1 October 4, 2017 at 9:20 pm #

    Does anyone know how to find texts on a iPhone if you don’t know how they could be in contact? I want so badly to be able to find out if my husband is still contacting his op . I had suspicions of maybe him contacting her tonight. Please let me know! Thanks

    • TryingHard October 4, 2017 at 9:47 pm #

      Hopeful1– I’m not sure what you’re asking but yes if you press the Messages icon all the texts should be there. It should also show deleted texts at the bottom of all the texts. It says Deleted Texts. They don’t stay there forever.

      Best thing to do is set up your on line acct with your carrier unless of course it’s a business phone then you’d have to have the accountant at the office give you the user name and password fir the account. Hard to do unless they are a friend. But if it’s your personal account you can set it up and you see all the numbers and cell towers that are pinged, whether it’s an incoming or outgoing call, minutes spent on the call and date. Same for texts. If it’s too hard you can go to the store of your carrier and they will help you.

      Hope this helps. I hear you 😞

  54. JTK October 4, 2017 at 9:38 pm #

    If you press the message icon, it shows all texts regardless if there is a contact or not if he did not delete the text. Also, I have gone to MyVerizon acct and can see what numbers sent to or teceived for all texts. Not sure about other carriers but they probably show that as well. Good luck I know what you are feeling.

  55. Hopeful1 October 5, 2017 at 7:22 am #

    Well I may be onto something I am looking into nanny cams , I know need to find one with out audio. He has a man cave downstairs and he has been down there a lot !has computer down there and sometimes he will takes his phone down there to! Does anyone know about them? Please let me know! It’s awful to have to come to this ! Thanks

  56. Hopeful1 October 5, 2017 at 8:01 am #

    Thanks for your information, I believe he is very smart about deleting texts! He is very tech savvy as he even built his computer! I have been having gut feelings that they may still be in contact! So what do you think about my last post about a nanny cam ?

  57. TryingHard October 5, 2017 at 8:25 am #

    Hopeful1–I think it’s called Spy Store it has all that stuff. They have everything that looks like regular stuff but it’s a recorder. And you can record voice in your own home and car legally. If he’s doing anything he’s probably Skyping. Just my guess.

    My opinion, we do what we have to do. But it’s exhausting.

  58. TryingHard October 5, 2017 at 8:56 am #

    Hopeful1
    Ok just googled it. Spy Tec and Brickhouse is the sources I’m familiar with. You can even call and a tech will speak with you giving you advice which to use and how to use it. They may also have other recommendations also there’s software you can install that runs in the background fully undetectable. Shows you every site they are looking at and using.

    • Hopeful1 October 6, 2017 at 12:06 pm #

      Thanks I will look into that !

  59. Hopeful October 5, 2017 at 2:25 pm #

    I found that if texts were sent in wifi they do not show up on the cell phone bill fyi. So a bit of a loophole. Aren’t there apps you can put on a phone and it will send all their texts but runs in the background? I have never used one but heard about them. Maybe hiring a PI since he is tech savy himself. My husband deleted everything right away and is clueless. I did find one email that was never sent and then his history was there for his fake fb account and on his fake email was all the im’s he sent out. So those he had no clue he should have been deleting. However they were fake accounts I knew nothing about. I think at the root of this are you trying to find evidence since he is denying or are you wanting to know what he is up to in order to check up on him? For me I told my husband I will check randomly and have access to all of his devices and accounts whenever I want with all the passwords. If a password is changed and he does not tell me the new one without asking it will be a major red flag. But I also told him I refuse to play detective and live my life that way. Anything at all that could be viewed as not suspicious is better if he tells me right away. If I find something then it will be a major issue or maybe a deal breaker. When I was in all out spy mode I felt crazy and miserable. I decided for me it was not the best way to live.

    • Hopeful1 October 6, 2017 at 12:14 pm #

      I agree, it’s awful to feel the need to do this . I tried d d I utilities and was not able to use it . My husband new and he tried to install it also but no luck! So he knows I am not trusting him yet ! But he is smart when it comes to technology, he hid it so well for years !i am still looking at getting a silent nanny cam to watch him downstairs! We shall see !thanks for your input.

  60. TryingHard October 5, 2017 at 2:50 pm #

    There’s all kinds of apps one can use that doesn’t show up on the bill, that disappear after the text is read or sent, etc. But there’s also new software that counteracts all that too. Trick is finding that software.

    I have to say also, just because someone can build his own computer doesn’t necessarily mean they are “tech” savvy as far as apps and software applications. And yes there’s all kinds of ways to set up fake FB accounts, email accounts and the thing is the don’t even have to send the email. They set up an email account and type up drafts so the other one simply has to log in and look at the draft.

    Nanny cams aren’t very expensive but they would have to be placed strategically to see what’s going on. If this Nanny cam is sitting behind his desk facing his computer she could certainly zoom in on whatever he is doing on his computer.

    Yeah as I said it’s exhausting but so is being suspicious. One thing I remember from Sarah’s interview with the PI is, he said 98% of the people who were suspicious of their mates where 100% right on. At this stage it’s hard to differentiate between suspicions and paranoia!!

    • Hopeful1 October 6, 2017 at 12:25 pm #

      Yes, I checked there are a lot of apps, some you have to jail break , don’t want to do that! I had his sister come over yesterday to talk, she helped me calm down. I just want to be sure he is not back at it again! I would be devastated to say the least, the not knowing for sure he is being honest is dragging me down! I would love to be able to move on and feel comfortable again if that is possible!

      • Sama October 11, 2017 at 3:40 pm #

        Hopeful1, for an iPhone, if you have access you need to put Siri on in settings then if you go to there notifications pull down screen there is a search box at the top. Type in messages and it brings up a list or if you know her name input that unless like my h he called her by a blokes name to hide from me. The list will show you he begging of the last 6 to 7 messages. If her name will show last 6 or 7 of her messages and mail x

  61. TryingHard October 6, 2017 at 12:38 pm #

    Good Luck to you Hopeful1. The resources I gave you were very helpful to me. There’s so much out there, it gets confusing.

    I’m not going to lecture you on the emotional implications of playing marriage spy as I am certain you are an intelligent person capable of making her own decisions. I truly believe we all go through our own phases and these phases are NOT linear when dealing with betrayal. You have to do what’s right for YOU to a make yourself feel safe in your relationship with your husband. I see nor do I judge anyone who uses these tactics as less than.

    Keep us posted. I feel your pain my dear.

  62. Hopeful1 October 6, 2017 at 1:12 pm #

    Trying hard , thank you we have been together for 24 years! His op was his ex girlfriend, they have been in touch ever since we have been together! She is 8 years younger than him and married 2 years ago! He was her first boyfriend for has not been able to stay away from him! And he has not been able to stay away from her . I left him and he asked me to come back! Little did I know he was going to continue this, yes I got the ilybnilwu line , just a good friend ! We married after 22 years together, now we have 24 years together! This was the biggest shock of my life.i hope I am wrong, but I still get vibes that something is up ! I enjoy reading these blogs it helps when you have support with people who have been there!

  63. TheFirstWife October 6, 2017 at 11:05 pm #

    Hopeful. So sorry for you as this phase is exhausting. And almost depressing.

    I know why you are forced to do it but I wish it were different.

    I am 4 years past DDay2 and I no longer check up on him. He doesn’t give me a reason to. But if I suspected anything I would just leave as I can no longer engage in this.

  64. Rose October 8, 2017 at 6:40 pm #

    Facebook…yay or nay? Outside of the dangers, do you friend your spouse or not? I’m asking because my H has left ridiculous responses to my posts sometimes (not just me…both our sons have unfriended him for the same reason). He posts nothing but political crap but today I read a response in a thread from him and it was so out there you’d think he was losing it. I asked him what it had to do with the topic and he said “Don’t like it, don’t read it.” I almost unfriended him at that point but I need to watch who he’s “friending.” He’s just being a jerk to me right now. What do you all do?

    • Hopeful October 9, 2017 at 1:53 am #

      Since dday my husband has not had any social media. For him he had a fake fb account. he also had a fake email. For us it is up to me if he has access to any social media. If he even were to create a gmail address even for a good reason I get to decide. He also committed to the idea that anything he says or does should be something he would be proud of and okay with reading/hearing/seeing. He wants to live a high quality and transparent life. I want to be with someone I respect and he understands that. He was unsure at first since he was living his life in a selfish way thinking of himself first. But that has changed now and he finds it rewarding. I would ask first why does he feel it is okay to post things like that? Why does he feel he can say that to you? Why does he need to be in fb? Why is he okay with offending and treating your kids that way? For me it goes beyond one post or comment but is a bigger issue. Is he this way in other aspects of your lives?

    • TheFirstWife October 9, 2017 at 5:53 am #

      Rose. WOW is this difficult for you and your family.

      I see those posts all the time and I wonder why people don’t have more common sense and stop and think how this affects their family.

      Some of the rants are just painful to read.

      I have an in-law who has a career in sales. The political rants are non-stop complete with “wtf” all over the place. It is embarrassing to say the least. But then the encouragement of others “you go girl” type crap is even worse.

      I am on FB but my posts are so generic. Funny stuff. No politics or personal stuff. Not even about my kids – b/c they don’t want it on there.

      And my H is not in FB.

      But I understand your position about having access to his social media. But if he is going to cheat – he will find a way. Fake email accounts. Tinder and Craigslist and all the other sites and apps make it easy.

      You shoukd be able to unfriend him at some point OR just stop reading his posts until you can.

      Though I would be concerned about him appearing mentally unbalanced and that I woukd keep an eye on.

      It is too bad you cannit calmly and rationally explain yourself to him in an effort to get him to tone it down. How it’s affected the family negatively.

      I’m sorry I don’t have a solution for you but I think social media is a marriage killer in many cases. It provides access and easy ways for cheaters to have access to oppirtunities.

      Years ago to be a cheater you had to physically see the person to start something. Now you don’t even need to leave your home to be cheating.

  65. Rose October 9, 2017 at 3:34 pm #

    He is incredibly selfish, which is funny since he thinks he’s an empath–you know, going around saving all those damsels in distress. On FB (our daughter still friends him), he never posts pictures of his dogs, his grandchild, his kids, or me. Even on grandson’s birthday last week, I posted some pictures and a nice Happy Birthday, and he didn’t even like the post. He’ll like stupid political posts or his female friends’ posts. I’m not too concerned (yet) about the female friends. I keep close tabs on that. He acts stupid about FB, too, like when I told him if he “likes” his cousin’s racist, misogynistic posts with bouncing breasts and obscenity, he is AGREEING with them. He said no, he feels bad that no one else responds to those posts. Excuse me? His cousin is a jerk and there’s a reason no one responds. I still haven’t told him that he lost the dog he wanted due to his FB stupidity. We rescued a dog through an organization, and he loved that dog. The issue was the dog was aggressive toward me and our other dog. Twice I asked him for help when the dog was growling. Once he was doing a moronic survey posted by one of his female friends, and it took him 10 minutes to get off his ass to help me with the dog. Next time, the dog was growling and starting to attack our other dog. He was sitting in the chair in front of me and I could see what he was doing., One of his OTHER female friends requested he install FB Messenger. He had his laptop in one hand and his phone in the other to do this installation. I asked him what he was doing (I could see it all tho) and he said his cousin requested him to be on Messenger. Lied to me, again. Took him yet another 10 minutes while I held the dogs apart. The next day I told him the dog was going to have to go back to the rescue. Of course he says this is my fault, but the fact is he was too busy with FB to care.

    He has since uninstalled Messenger on his phone, and I keep close tabs on who he’s messaging now. Nothing untoward for now. He has a Gmail account and another email, and I have passwords to both (unbeknownst to him–I worked with a lot of smart IT people who gave me a lot of good resources). I know what’s on his phone. He still deletes texts as he started to do in 2012 with his 2nd EA (oh yeah, he’d get a text from her in the car and start texting back while he was driving–right in front of me, but I was in the dark at that time). But I closely monitor the phone bill still, 5 years later, and I will ask if any numbers show up frequently. He does not have a burner phone. He’s home all the time due to his back issues so I’m fairly certain of where he is. But dammit. Linda and Doug said in a post that what the betrayer should be doing is saying “What can I do to demonstrate I’ve learned an important lesson?” and he has yet to even acknowledge he made any mistakes. I am tired.

    • Shifting Impressions October 9, 2017 at 4:41 pm #

      Rose
      Only you can decide if “enough is enough”.

    • Hopeful1 October 12, 2017 at 7:20 am #

      Hi rose , I understand the Facebook thing , my husband did the same thing he would not like my posts either. That is how they were connecting through messager. He also had a friend he had hidden (girl) !he had also had been talking to other women! One who was trying to connect up with him. When I realized all this I told him he had to unfriendl his op he deactivated his Facebook! Has not been on Facebook since 2014. I would rather him to stay of as that was a way for him to meet other women! He also got angry that I told him to unfriendly his op ! To bad ! So they had to find another way to connect! I am sure Facebook destroyed a lot of people. There are a lot of ways to connect to keep a affair going unfortunately. Because my husband sure did for another year. In 2014 he had told me they had broke it off ! Still have trust issues and he has not yet been able to open up!

  66. JTK October 10, 2017 at 8:24 am #

    Just want to say thank you to all for your support and words of encouragement and that I pray for all of you. My heart hurts for everyone. We all have our faults, but what our spouses have done to us is horrible. Hugs to all of you.

    • Hopeful1 October 12, 2017 at 8:26 am #

      Thanks jtk , I love that I have others for help and advice on this blog, but it stinks the reason we are here ! Husband does not want to talk about this issue and it makes me wonder why! The guilt, shame or that he has not been able to get over his op! He gets emotional when he hears certain songs or watches movies that are sad, he is not able to let go of her letters from long ago. Yes just recently put that crap in attic as he had it down stairs in the closet of his man cave ugh! I have blocked her email and phone number on our phones . I am sure if they are still connecting it would have to be another way ! I know life will never be the same again! I hear about family members and their going through the same issues! So sad!

      • TheFirstWife October 12, 2017 at 9:53 am #

        Hopeful1

        You are in the middle of a big mess (to put it politely).

        I was in your shoes too. For the first two months after DDay1 my wirld was upside down. He had 1 and 3/4 feet out the door with no warning or knowledge by me.

        Blindsided. Only way to describe it.

        He continued to have contact.

        So I told him right now – make a decision – her or me. He chose me but it was b/c he was scared. It was not what his heart wanted. So I watched for two months as he was sad and angry and mean and nasty and short tempered with me. And he kept saying he wasn’t sure if he still wanted to be married.

        He was an alien being to me.

        Things started to resume back to normal after about 2 months. I breathed a sigh of relief. Things were better.

        Why? Because the OW was back in the picture. And then I started hearing again about him wanting a D but it was b/c it was him. Nothing to do with her b/c she was not involved w/ him (that’s what he told me).

        I confronted at DDay2 and told him I was divorcing him and you are being told to get out!!!

        Gee What a shock the A is over. NC and all that stuff – blocked emails when she tried to resume their friendship 1 month later. It was over 👏👏👏

        My point is YOU are allowing him to continue this A (in his heart and mind and fantasies etc). He kept a box of letters?

        Excuse me but HELL NO!! I would never allow that type of disrespect.

        He doesn’t want to talk about it b/c it is too painful? No I think he doesn’t want to talk about it b/c he lives her but cannot be with her. And the misrepresentation may be in your thinking he is sad about the M and what he has done to you. I suspect the larger part is his unhappiness that he is not in the A or contact with OW.

        He needs to make s choice – either 100% you OR you are ending this sham of a M.

        If his heart isn’t 100% with you – well I would rather be alone than living with that situation.

        In a M or relationship you are either 100% on my team or not. And if not – please do not let the door hit you in the butt on your way out. I’m not saying my H has to agree with me on everything BUT you cannot Love me and disrespect me and continue to lie and cheat – that is not a M. That is hell.

        I hope you understand my point and that I hope you can out an end to this craziness. Because I would not last for one more second in a M if I thought my spouse was depressed and/or pining over the OW.

        Hell No!!

        • Shifting Impressions October 12, 2017 at 2:32 pm #

          TFW
          I totally agree.

        • Hopeful1 October 14, 2017 at 6:15 pm #

          Tfw , there have been days when I wondered if I could live with this on my mind all the time! I have had thoughts of telling him we need to split up! He has been loving, telling me he loves me every day , he also has been texting me from work to see how I am doing! Never did before. He had told me I could throw her stuff out , but I wanted him to do that himself and he never did! I just threw it in the attic. It’s very confusing, I feel he loves me but i also feel he has feelings for her due to the length of time this went on ! He did stay with me as I told him to to be with her because I had enough of it ! I just take a day at a time and what happens will happen . If I do find he is still contacting her that will be my deal breaker . Thanks for responding I appreciate your concern and help!

          • TheFirstWife October 14, 2017 at 7:43 pm #

            hopeful1

            I am sure he loved you and it appears he is trying.

            But I am puzzled why he wanted YOU to throw out her “stuff” and why he didn’t do it in his own.

            When I found out the OW was in my H’s car I was furious. That she invaded my space. In his own he sold that car and
            Bought a new one.

            He knows not to play certain music as it is a trigger for me.

            I just wonder how the cheaters have pretty darn goid spouses with them and just don’t realize it until they screw it up!!!

            So disrespectful. I just don’t get it.

            Do the chesyers think we don’t remember the things they said and did to hurt us during the A?

            And now they loooove us to death.

            Seriously which one is it??

            • Hopeful1 October 19, 2017 at 9:20 am #

              Tfw , I am as puzzled as you are about throwther things out . I couldn’t do it. That stuff was from back in the 80’s ! I remember when I met my ex husband he was jealous and I thre out my prom pictures . To this day it upsets me I got rid of those memories I cannot get back! But I know this is a different scenario as he had a emotional affair with his ex ! I also cannot listen to certain songs as they are big trigger for me . One day at a time for me ! Going on 3 years for last d day ! Pray that i will not have any more, will not do this again!

  67. Sama October 11, 2017 at 3:51 pm #

    It has been 9!wks now without contact from h. How can a man after 30 yrs and 3 yrs of cake eat and coming home promises just cut his wife and children dead! Although he did text kids at the weekend that he was thinking of them with a dig at me in it so daughter text ok and son 14 gave him a mouthful saying he disposed what he had done and her social media rubbish and that he had flushed his balls down the toilet with the rest of his dignity!! H did not reply. H has 4 emails at ow house so cud email his land lord to give notice to give up apartment but sent from mine so I cud see it.

    I did wonder if doing to say look I have given up my apartment and moved fully back in with ow instead of part time or telling me look gave up apartment as I said I would when plan to come home before no contact. Who knows. I emailed today to ask if just letting me know and that shame he gave up his apartment as lovely and he seemed really proud of it. I said I hope he is well. He read it but no reply.

    I went to solicitor re his divorce for my unreasonable behaviour for not showing enough empathy and attention to him. He has not done anything about finances as his pension letters still coming to mine.

    I have no idea what the hell us going on. I just want him to miss me and contact me. I just hope she has not trapped him with a child. 50 in mlc 3 yrs in and how long to go! Xx

    • Hopeful1 October 12, 2017 at 7:48 am #

      Sama , I feel for you, sounds like you might need to move on for yourself and children! I had had enough and I moved out ! He was keeping in touch with me and when he came over to talk, he told me he was going to move on I just told him ok that I would probably move to columbus with my sister! Well he left and within 4 hours he was calling me and told me he loved me and wanted me to come home, so I packed up and went home. Little did I know he was not through with her! It went on for 2 more years! I then had his sister come over to let him know I was done, that was when he said he was going to end it with his op ! After 22 years we got married and I came to find out she was getting married to! I was shocked! Sometimes I wonder if that was the reason we finally got married! To this day if they are still in touch. They hid it so well before! If I find out, game changer for me !

    • TheFirstWife October 12, 2017 at 10:01 am #

      Sama. I am so sorry for you.

      He will not “miss” you b/c he has something else to focus on or someone else to occupy his time and attention.

      Only a coward abandons his family like that – especially his children.

      I wish there was some advice here – I just wanted to say I am sorry for you and we all know how painful this is.

  68. Rose October 17, 2017 at 1:19 pm #

    There are days when I am SO angry, it almost acts like a motivational tool. And there are other days like today when I am SO angry, I want to hide under a rock and cry, or drive until I can’t drive anymore. Do you have days like that? Yesterday he was full of kisses and hugs and “I love yous,” and today I look at his Facebook timeline. He never wished me a Happy Birthday, but just last week he sent an e-card on Facebook to one of his female friends with the comment “I’m glad you were born!” I am so tired of this. I’m journaling to try and decide whether to confront him with it or let it go, like I do everything else. It won’t make a bit of difference either way.

  69. TryingHard October 20, 2017 at 11:47 am #

    Angela– I really respect what you have said here. You knew what your boundaries and deal breakers were and you stuck by them. You stuck by them and made clear your requests to your h. I admire that.

    I think that is a lot of the problem with some BS’s. We get too wrapped up untangling our spouse’s problems and not enough time with our own. Really getting down and determining what our own deal breakers are, what are our boundaries and then making a decision to stay and work things out or move on. You even set in motion your, what I call, Plan B. Should your h not respect your boundaries and recognize your deal breakers in your relationship and either agree or not and then you have the decision to make.

    The reality is, once the affair comes to light and most questions have been answered, the playing field is then a little more level. There may be some incidental questions, but mostly you know all you really need to know. And sometimes there’s just a little more you need to know as in, who was the AP, which I believe without those answers could be a deal breaker. Are they still in contact with the AP, deal breaker. They flirt on social media with women, deal breaker. So what are YOUR deal breakers? It sounds like you figured that out and laid it out for you CS to either accept or not.

    The BS gets to decide what their deal breakers are. Because certainly if your spouse having sex with someone else and having an affair and financial infidelity, has not been a deal breaker what are your deal breakers? Do you even have any deal breakers or boundaries. I like that you pressed the issue not for your self but for his own self knowledge. Your h should be very grateful you were willing to help him this way and cut him some slack. It also speaks of the great respect you must have for him. Good on you.

    I know I have for myself really questioned, What Are My Deal Breakers?? If not all the betrayal on so many levels, what? This is where it takes a lot of self introspection and knowledge especially in the discovery days. I wish I had that info during mine. I was so anxious to just get my life back I missed a lot of these steps. But it’s never too late. As I read on another great blog our lives can be “tentatively ever after” while figuring this out. Totally stealing and plagiarizing this line but it’s too good not to pass on. We can always change our minds.

    You’re a smart woman Angela. Thanks for posting.

    • Angela October 20, 2017 at 3:18 pm #

      Thanks for the compliments! It took me two years of devastation to reach the point I was at when I wrote that initial poem called “invitation to a carnival”. It was simply describing the life I’d already been living for 2 years and I had come to a point where I decided I was not going to live it anymore even if it meant letting him go. Both options were Heartbreakers but staying with him was MORE of a heartbreaker. And speaking of great quotes, one of my favorites is this one: “people will remain the same until the pain of remaining the same is greater than the pain of change”.

      The pain was already true for me and I had to make it true for him. But like I said in another comment I also believe that the night he watched me in the bathtub crying uncontrollably for 2 or 3 hours while he handed me Kleenex and he had to see my emaciated body from where I’d been unable to eat right for so long it hit him where it needed to hit him and hit him in the gut finally.

      I’m not grateful for what I had to go through to get here but I am grateful for the different relationship we have now. He has respected the no contact rule since day one. Flirting on social media is a No-No and he knows that and does not do it. And unbelievably we have actually rebuilt a level of trust where we still have opposite-sex friendships and we are just fine with them we have recovered two a degree that is amazing and we’re loving it. Though it is recent and it is still new and scary for me because I am still learning to trust it is amazing and worth it.

      • TryingHard October 20, 2017 at 4:22 pm #

        Angela— not compliment, admiration for your smarts and fortitude. You made it work brilliantly and it sounds like you have a better relationship now in spite of the betrayal. Good on you. You are also a very gifted writer. I hope you know that. Stick around. We need more people like you.

  70. TryingHard October 20, 2017 at 9:49 pm #

    SU. You have nothing to hang your beautiful head about. But I do admire Angela’s fortitude. We could all take a lesson from her. Hugs sister in law 😊

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