Open ‘Mic’ Discussion #20

microphoneIt’s that time again for you guys to take control of the topics that are most important to you.

This is Open Mic #20 and we know there must be some things that are going on that you can either ask questions about, share your experiences – or maybe just do a little venting.

Anyways, the floor is all yours!

Feel free to discuss anything…

  • What’s on your mind?
  • Have any successes to share? Big or small. (It would be nice to hear some of these!)
  • Got a question? Ask it.
  • Do you have any problems or situations that you’d like the community to offer their opinions on?
  • Any good books you’d like to discuss?
  • What are you and/or your spouse doing to further the healing and recovery in your relationship?
  • What’s working or not working?
  • Has your therapist given you any good advice or exercises that the rest of the readers might benefit from?
  • What has your spouse done lately that really pisses you off?
  • What has your spouse done lately to make you really happy?
  • Everything and anything is on the table for discussion!

Please don’t be shy. If there is anything whatsoever on your mind, please leave a comment below.

Thanks!

Linda & Doug

 

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114 Responses to Open ‘Mic’ Discussion #20

  1. Joey August 11, 2015 at 11:17 am #

    Hello everyone – I hope you all have been doing well! For the first time, in a very long time, I feel like I am getting back to my old self. It is under two years from D-Day, with many D-Days to follow – about 7 months from the last one where I finally said enough is enough.

    I feel strong, confident, happy – and my friends and family are noticing (and I think relieved). I haven’t gone on any dates or anything like that – don’t think I am ready for that, but I am feeling good about where I am at.

    I would like some advice, however. My ex is still crazy, trying to draw me in to her drama, and as much as I feel good, it sometimes just wears on me. Over the weekend, I had a bday for my nephew who my ex knows very well – since he was born. She texted me saying she saw pictures of me at the party – saying I never looked better. And then she said why couldn’t I have been like this before the affair? Why was I so work obsessed? If I was this laid-back, go with the flow person, she never would have been unhappy, she never would have cheated, and we could still be together….

    Ok – well – clearly she still blames me for the affair. I completely froze when she said that to me. Why do I let her affect me like this – I feel good when she is not around or constantly texting. What do you guys suggest I do – I go no contact, try not to respond, or just stay cordial. Why won’t she leave me alone?! After all – her AP was her “soul mate, best friend, lover – someone she had a connection with that she never felt before – she could give herself to him in ways she could never give herself to me…” Yes she has said this to me on multiple occasions and yet she just can’t seem to let me move on with my life…

    • CBb August 11, 2015 at 5:14 pm #

      Joey, remember her affair was her choice. She is only saying things to you now b/c she is a coward and crazy. How hard would it have been for her to say “You really work alot and I feel lonely. What can we do to resolve this?”. What she did was LIE and CHEAT as a way to address her feelings.

      You are right, she is crazy and full of drama. Otherwise why would she play this game with you? I will tell you why.

      She only wants what she can’t have. This is her game. She had you and threw you away. You are no longer part of her life now and she believes (delusional I dare say) she wants you back. It is the thrill of the chase for her.

      If you went back, she would do it again. Cheat, toss you away, repeat the cycle.

      I suggest no contact. None. No FaceBook, text, tweet, etc. Block her. You do not need her judgements & opinions & justifications. They are only serving her.

      If you feel good when she is out of the picture, then concentrate on having her stay out of the picture and your life. Don’t let her drama and crap derail your progress.

      She cheated, she lied, she loses. End of story. Don’t look back.

      If she continues to harass you and will not leave you alone, then I suggest legal action and restraining order. You never know what these crazy psychos will do. But that is extreme but you should know your options.

      Don’t fall into her trap. Don’t let her even know what you are doing if you can help it. Build a wall to keep her out. Do not read her texts or emails as they are upsetting.

      She does not get it and quite frankly she never will. If she still thinks it was your fault she cheated, there are not enough hours in the day to begin to explain it to her.

      You need to find someone who will love you for you. It feels like you gave her chances and she showed her true self – a liar and cheater. In fact, where is her Mr. Wonderful now? Why is she not giving him her opinions?

    • exercisegrace August 12, 2015 at 12:06 pm #

      Joey, I will add my two cents. Block her. Right now. Change your email and cell numbers if you can. A hassle, I know, but worth it. If she manages to contact you, don’t respond. If you answer a call, politely tell her you can’t talk and hang up. Don’t engage her, it simply will not end well for you. She is on a power trip and she wants control. Don’t worry about what other people think, if they know you both, they will understand. If they don’t understand, you don’t need them in your life anyway.

    • Ken August 14, 2015 at 11:49 am #

      very nice. My wife did the same thing and had the exact same excuses. I didn’t buy it. She was – unhappy, when her sisters asked if she ever mentioned it to me….. well of course not… it’s just an excuse after the fact.
      Yes, she gave me the same lines.. soul mates, best friends, everything in common.
      I think she meant play mates……….
      anyway, its been 3.5 years (I can’t believe it).
      the soulmates lasted till last August when he left the company and her.
      It’s the hardest thing to do; let go……. however, sometimes in life it’s just the way it is.
      I loved my wife very much and never ever looked at other women. 27 years.

  2. gizfield August 11, 2015 at 5:41 pm #

    I agree with CBB, block, block, block. You deserve lots better than a lying cheater.

  3. Joey August 11, 2015 at 5:55 pm #

    Thanks! Sometimes I feel like cracking and just yelling at her and saying something that will really let her know how I feel. Something like, “I think I am so happy, look great, feel great is because you are out of my life and you can no longer bring me down. Before, during, and after the affair, you literally treated me like crap and once I got away from that, I realized that life is too short to let you dictate how I live my life.” But then I restrain myself and try not to engage – that’s exactly what she would want, and it would only give her a reason to tell people how horrible I am. I mean seriously – when does the unfaithful realize truly how horrible they are to the betrayed – I mean were we really that horrible for them to treat us the way they did?

    As for her AP – he is back with his wife. He unfortunately lives near me in the city I live. So I have the pleasant experience of bumping into them now and then. The fact that I haven’t punched the guy who I caught naked in MY bed is truly a miracle – I guess that shows some type of growth 🙂 Sometimes I am annoyed that he and his wife are back in the swing of things and doing well (Yes – when I see them – they tell me about their progress…), but then I remember that there are so many amazing people who were unfaithful who really get it and make things right – my ex isn’t one of them unfortuntately.

    • CBb August 11, 2015 at 9:54 pm #

      I was in a similar relationship when I was 18. The guy was verbally and emotionally abusive. I am now in my 50s BUT can still remember many of the horrible things he said to me. And he cheated on me and went out with another girl and BLAMED me.

      Fast forward one day I finally got tired of his lying, drinking, low class behavior. I could not drive right, I did not dress sexy enough, I wore too much make up (which I hardly ever wore at all), and on and on and on.

      I dumped him and never looked back.

      Verbal abuse is just as bad as physical abuse. Sounds like your ex is the Queen of it all – verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, lair, cheater, etc.

      Since Mr. Wonderful dumped her she now has no one to put her crap on. She still believes she has the right to say crap to you and voice her opinion. She is delusional.

      You owe her nothing. Don’t get sucked in by her. She is toxic.

      Block any and all communication. The less she knows the better. And you are and will be the better person for not stooping to her level and acting like her. You are better than her. She is trying to provoke you. Don’t fall for it.

      BTW people will eventually get her game. Let her say you were mean to her. Who cares? The relationship is over. If you lose a friend who listens to her, don’t let the door hit them in the butt as they exit your life. They were never your true friend.

      When my toxic boyfriend cheated on me, ALL my friends except 1 went along with him. I was left with no friends (as most of my friends went away to college and I did not go to college then). It was hard and sad and lonely. But it made me leave my small town and move onto better things and better people.

      One thing I learned from that toxic relationship was his own insecurities were the cause of his behavior. We broke up b/c he did not want me to go to college. I was living at home and commuting to college and it drove him crazy. Jealous and insecure.

      Maybe that is part of your ex’s issues and behavior. In any event, run from this circus. You don’t need this.

  4. TryingHard August 11, 2015 at 6:13 pm #

    Joey
    She is just plain mean! Delusional at the very least. I am so sorry she does this to you.

    Do you have kids with her? If not, def NO CONTACT. She is the past, irrelevant. I know it’s hard, kinda like not looking at a train wreck. And where did she see the pictures FB? If so de-friend and block her, ain’t nobody got time for that!!!

    She wants kibbles, as they so eloquently say on another blog. She wants you to feel bad. Do.Not.Give.It.To.Her!!! Of course she wants to blame you. She thinks she’s perfect. Schmoopie told her so, it must be true.

    Look you can’t validate or negate what she says in this regard. She has no right to verbalize her approval or disapproval. If you have kids you have to be cordial and speak with regards to transporting kids, school, health, behavior issues etc. Everything else is ignored. Her comments are mean and controlling and self serving and humanly indecent. Not to mention tacky!!!

    You know her cheating wasn’t your fault right? I mean really and truly deep in your mind you know that? Her cheating was all on her. Now I’m not saying you didn’t participate in the breakdown of your marriage, if there were any, but that is separate from her cheating and quite frankly a moot point now. You are divorced. She doesn’t get a vote on how you look or act now and whether or not there is a “new and improved Joey”.

    Sounds like she has some regret and gee Karma sure is a bitch! Be happy and don’t answer her. Living life well is the best revenge.

  5. TryingHard August 11, 2015 at 6:14 pm #

    Hey Doug
    I don’t have the little box to check that notifies me when there are follow up comments. It used to be here but now it’s gone.

    Uh oh, should I take this personally??? 🙂

    • CBb August 11, 2015 at 9:36 pm #

      It depends on your device. Appears on my iPad but not on my iPhone.

    • Doug August 12, 2015 at 8:49 am #

      Yes, TH we had a secret meeting and decided to cut you out of all future comments! 😉 Seriously, I checked on the plugin that powers that function and it appeared that it hadn’t been updated in quite some time, so I uploaded a new one and activated it. On my systems: IPhone, IPad and laptop, the checkbox now appears. Let me know if that is the case for you as well. Thanks!

      • TryingHard August 12, 2015 at 5:07 pm #

        I knew it!!!! You know Doug when everyone is after you, paranoia is just good thinking!!!

        LOL thanks for the answer 🙂

  6. TryingHard August 11, 2015 at 10:51 pm #

    Not showing up on iPhone iPad or computer

  7. Rachel August 12, 2015 at 8:58 am #

    Joey,
    Block that crazy women!!!
    Heard the same words. How come you weren’t this happy while we were married???
    Duh, dumb ass because I was married to you!!!!
    That grass isn’t greener as they thought!!!
    Good luck, enjoy the peace!

  8. CBb August 12, 2015 at 1:31 pm #

    Rachel you crack me up!

    Theynare stupid. They cause all this drama and pain and then wonder why we are upset and unhappy.

    I can be a bit stubborn and I remember in the midst of my H’s affair, I would not let myself get caught acting like a crying, whiny, poor me pathetic wife. I was like that on the inside but tried very hard not to crack on the outside.

    One day he said something horribly mean to me (during his affair which I was told was over but he clearly still missed her and thought about her often- I could tell). I started to cry a bit and he told me “oh quit your crying”. They just do not see their role in our devastation and unhappiness.

    Clueless!

  9. TheFirstWife August 12, 2015 at 1:36 pm #

    Does anyone have any tips for dealing w/ the residual resentment & anger? I don’t do anything to outwardly express it but sometimes I see it is there. I want to get rid of it. Suggestions needed

    • WhoKnew August 13, 2015 at 12:09 pm #

      If anyone has any other tips for anger and nagging feelings, it would be very appreciated. My husband has been making so much effort to assist in my healing from his EA. I can’t think of much more he could say or do at this point, and I’ve verbalized this to him. Not in terms of I want him to stop trying, but I don’t want him to think his efforts are going unnoticed. He has accepted full responsibility. I just continually have this nagging feeling. I can’t even put my finger on what it is that’s bothering me. Anger? Resentment? Sadness? Confusion? Anxiety? Maybe all the above. Just something eating me.Like that feeling when you know you’re forgetting something, but don’t know what it is. It’s been 6 months since I found out. I’ve been going to counseling and trying so hard to shake this… Can anyone relate with this? Normalize it for me?

      • TheFirstWife August 13, 2015 at 12:48 pm #

        Who Knew,

        I think that what you are seeing is normal for now. With only a few months past the D-Day, you are still unsettled about everything that has happened. Totally normal.

        I see your H is doing everything possible and that will help you tremendously.

        I think time is the best thing in these situations. I am just 2 years past D-Day and while my H is doing everything possible and is still trying even now, he made the classic mistakes of lying about the whole thing at a time when lying was the WORST thing he could have done. My point is that being 18 months or so past you puts many things in perspective.

        I think at that point in time I was still worried that his EA/PA would reoccur. For us it started, ended for 6-8 weeks and then restarted again for a few months. For the first year after it was over (most of 2014) I was concerned and worried it would start up again.

        That has not happened but that may be some of what you are feeling.

        It is normal to feel insecure about your marriage at this point, uncertain about his feelings, confused about your feelings – think of this as a trauma to your life, just like a physical injury to your body.

        It takes time to heal and if you and your H do this with good intentions and commitment, you will see these thoughts and feelings (and maybe some anxiety) lessen with time.

        I had PTSD for almost 18 months (as my H was walking out the door to be with the OW). However he never left and realized his mistakes before that occurred. However he did tell me he wanted a divorce on more than 1 occasion and I had a HUGE problem with that.

        I think once you get your power back and feel like you (yourself) are on stronger ground, you start to shed those thoughts and feelings.

        I hope this helps you.

    • Joey August 13, 2015 at 12:30 pm #

      Hi TheFirstWife-

      I think if you haven’t already done so, try and get back to do something that you really enjoyed doing before the affair. I think many times when the betrayed finds out about the affair, that becomes our primary focus and we can’t seem to shake the anger, resentment, and the hurt we feel. But I think it is key to give us time to do things for ourselves. We put so much pressure on ourselves to make things right in the relationship and many times, that just annoys the unfaithful. If we take a step back, don’t engage in the drama, and do something for ourselves and what makes us happy, not only does some resentment fall away, but the unfaithful spouse takes notice, thinking well shoot – my betrayed spouse is really taking care of themself and is so happy – I better start kicking it into gear or else I am going to be left behind. I think that is part of the reason why my ex is so aware of my happiness and she is feeling left behind.

      For example, I was always an avid triathlete – I loved competing and made some really good friends while training and practicing. For some reason or the other, I gave it up because I felt like I had to focus on other things – like my relationship and work. Well that obviously didn’t help because my fiancé had 2 year affair. This summer I decided to compete again – It was a great outlet to clear my thoughts, let go of some of my resentment. As I continued to train, I realized that when I was active and focused on it, I didn’t think of the affair and realized that my happiness is my own responsibility and know one else’s.

      I am sorry – I tend to ramble – but honestly, the best thing for me for dealing with anger was to let it go and start putting my own happiness and health first by re-engaging with the things that make me ME. When I did that, I felt at peace and lighter and wasn’t on edge as much. Hope that helps.

      • TheFirstWife August 13, 2015 at 1:00 pm #

        Joey, Thank you for that. I have done all of those things you suggested. In the midst of the drama and crap I started my own business, something I have always wanted to do. My H is very supportive and helpful but at the end of the day it is my business and passion.

        I think you are lucky b/c you don’t have to live with the person who caused all this drama and it can be less of a reminder. Thankfully you did not marry her! it would have been a lifetime of pain and drama. You dodged that bullet.

        I think my anger is when I get frustrated or annoyed by the little things in life and I need to learn to let it go. As an example my FIL lives in another country (the Caribbean no less) and we were not able to schedule a visit to see him this year due to other commitments. The other day when my H was voicing his disappointment that he has not been able to visit his dad, I was annoyed by it. We needed to spend $ and time visiting colleges for our child who is a High School senior. I again had to point that out to my H and I was angry b/c I feel he does not listen to me sometimes. In those moments I think the EA/PA comes bubbling to the surface for a variety of reasons.

        I know it is minor and petty but I just want to lose the anger over the EA/PA spilling out into everything.

        But other than that I am focused more on me and I am very happy with my life and really have no complaints (and had very few before the EA/PA occurred).

        Thanks for the suggestions – I will use them.

  10. Rachel August 12, 2015 at 3:31 pm #

    The first wife. I too have anger. Not every day though.
    I do the stop sign trick. Put up an imaginary stop sign . And try to move on. It’s not worth getting upset .

  11. Angel August 12, 2015 at 6:22 pm #

    I bought a punching bag. Whenever I get really angry, I go downstairs and hit it for all its worth. It definitely helps. Plus it is good exercise.

  12. Lynsey August 13, 2015 at 6:19 am #

    Hi Doug,

    I’m a member, but now after I log in, I can’t access the higher healing area. A page comes up that says I need to be a member, which I am. What’s up?

    • Doug August 13, 2015 at 10:27 am #

      Hmmm. Let me check on it

    • Doug August 13, 2015 at 10:50 am #

      Hey Lynsey, I did a little testing and for me it appears that the problemm is with access to the Forum. Is that what you’re finding? For some reason some of the links for the forum create the problem that you mentioned. I found that if you go to the Dashboard: http://www.emotionalaffair.org/dashboard/ and use the link for the forum there, it works fine. Try that for now until I can spend some more time to figure out why it’s doing that. The membership software just had an update and I assume there must be a slight bug somewhere. If your problem is something else (other than access to the Forum), please let me know. Thanks for the heads up!

      • Lynsey August 14, 2015 at 6:20 am #

        Thanks for checking on the problem, Doug. Still don’t have access though when doing as you suggested.

        • Doug August 14, 2015 at 7:00 am #

          Hmm…Do me a favor and send me an email with your password. Also, let me know how you are trying to access things, that is…browser and type of device. Thanks! http://www.emotionalaffair.org/contact-us

  13. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 7:58 am #

    My d day was about 4 years ago. When my H first asked me for a divorce because he was in love with another woman I
    The bottom dropped out of my world. I thought we had a good marriage. It took me forever to get to a point where I trusted him and didn’t think of that cow. He took responsibility and did and said all the right things and was transparent. His mom and sister still to this day talked to this cow because they were friends with her before my hubby PA. I thought it disrespectful and it caused a huge family rift because the cow had access to my life and how we were doing. Guess what? The cow started texting my husband again after 4 yrs. I found out by accident because I wasn’t checking his phone or the phone bill anymore. When I found out by accident I did some digging and they were texting for over a month before I found out. When I saw the proof on the phone bill my knees literally buckled. Of course we had a huge blow out with me asking ” why” again. His response ” it was just talking”. ” I told her I was never leaving you”. Blah blah. But the texting went on for over 30 days before I found out. And it was all day , every day. He insists he loves me , he just got caught up again. She is very manipulating and tried to get him to meet her , ( he allegedly said no). So I am right back to where I was 4 years ago , only worse. He knew how devastated I was 4 yrs ago and he chose to talk to her again. He truly doesn’t understand why I’m upset because he told her he wouldn’t leave me

  14. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 8:02 am #

    She told him she was all or nothing 4 years ago. Wanted him all to herself and didn’t want to be the affair partner. He chose me. Now she wants him back. She is like Glenn close in fatal attraction. She is conniving and manupulative. Told him she made a mistake. She loves him and will never love someone else like that again. We blocked her number on all our phones , however , last time they were using texting aps that don’t show up on phone bill. So I am back to being nancy drew and I hate it

  15. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 8:05 am #

    He swears he loves only me. He swears he just got caught up in the talking. He swears there was no feelings on his part. How can I believe that when he chose to text her for over a month. Then at one point he told me ” he FORGOT” how much I hated her. Are you freaking kidding me right now? I can’t figure out if he really knew what he was doing or has the iq of a grape.

    • TheFirstWife August 14, 2015 at 11:51 am #

      You are in a tough spot. I would be furious with my H if he spoke or texted his OW for even one second.

      If you can take a step back and try to be an objective third party – what would you say? what advice would you give? What would you tell your best friend in this situation?

      I don’t think your H is trustworthy. Not saying he cheated this last time BUT he did text with her for an extended period which is a violation of your marriage and his honesty and transparency.

      The OW is getting to him at a vulnerable time and he is falling for it. She is a master manipulator.

      But his responses to you are that of a clueless dope. He does not get it.

      If he was a man of remorse and character, he would have told you about the very first TEXT she sent him. You would have been proud of him for being a straight up kinda guy.

      But he did not do that and engaged with her in a very secretive way. Which says things about his character.

      I was in your exact position. My H admitted he was having an affair. I was so impressed he told me himself. However he lied about 99% of the details. But they were over. It was wrong. He knew he made a mistake. Two months later she angled him, he changed his email and they were back in the full affair. He told me he wanted a divorce.

      How did I find out about the OW part 2? I called her and she admitted everything. She thought he was going to go running to her. He did not and it was completely over.

      My H now admits everything he did wrong. But he still has to face the fact that he damaged our relationship. But he has no second chances. One false move and he is out the door. No conversations. No questions asked.

      I would be struggling with this. Trying to be a good forgiving wife AND keep my sanity makes it seem like they are at odds. And they are b/c your H continues to make poor choices.

      I assume you have seen the emails and there is nothing in there that screams LIAR or CHEATER at you (on his part). As for the OW your H is right he cannot control others. However he can control details and information that the OW receives about you via his family. He needs to just shut up. However you can make it very difficult for the OW to have any any alone time with him at the wake of service. Stick to him like glue.

      I know what you mean about revenge. My H’s OW now has a boyfriend. I have thought about paying some totally fabulous girl to go and sabotage and upset her life the way she did mine. Karma baby! I would never do it but the thought is sweet.

  16. DonMar August 14, 2015 at 8:11 am #

    its been 2 1/2 years since dday. (we are still together.) I cant seem to move forward or let go. its always a half step forward and 2 steps back for me.my life is in limbo. I am numb to everything in my life. I don’t know what to do, so I do nothing. Some one please help me, alittle.

    • TheFirstWife August 14, 2015 at 12:31 pm #

      Do you have a therapist? Mine saved my life. He was wonderful.

      If no therapy I suggest joining some group or activity just for you. Volunteer at something. Get out of your house and get it off your mind.

      Get a journal and start writing in it. It can help you.

      Baby steps. My therapist also said to stop expecting the cheater to help you heal. Usually they are not in a position to help.

  17. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 8:17 am #

    This is where I’m at right now. I love my husband. I know this women is a manipulator. When she found out I knew about the texting she amped up the texting so I would get mad at him. She wants me to leave him and walk into his life. I can’t believe she has the balls to do this again. And no, I’m not blaming her 100%. I know it sounds like that. But seriously zero contact ( except for his mom and sis) for 4 years and she texts him she wants him back?? She has balls of steel. So now I’m super mad and upset in the one hand , but the other hand I don’t want her to win!! Isn’t that crazy?? I told him he could have her , I would bow out , no fighting etc … He Insists our life is perfect now. Then why answer her texts?? At this point I honestly don’t know if I can ever trust him again!! However , I don’t want her to ” win ” him. So I’m stuck in limbo. He has been doing everything right and saying everything right and being transparent again etc ….. But I don’t want to do this everytime she gets a bug up her ass. My hubby has low self esteem and she knows how to push his buttons. He is very attractive and has a great body. He is 5’8″. She is over 6 feet and very very very heavy. She told her friend it would be a feather in her cap to get him. I don’t want to go back to that scared , scarred person I was 4 yrs ago and I want to move in and be happy. Don’t know what to do

    • Untold August 14, 2015 at 10:48 am #

      Cindy,
      Like everyone else here most likely, I am very sorry this happened to you again. It must be very painful and frustrating, to have thought you were past it and have it come back 4 years later. That’s why no contact means no contact. If contact occurs there must be immediate and full disclosure. Your husband must insist his family go no contact with her also, or he goes no contact with them.

      She must be gone. Or he must go. Even if he doesn’t there should be hard consequences for your husband. To deceive again shows a pattern. Get yourself some outside help and counsel. Be sure you really want to win him. Prayers and best of luck to you.

    • theresa August 16, 2015 at 3:19 pm #

      Cindy, was there a strict NO CONTACT boundary when you decided to stay with him?
      Was it made idiot proof?
      Did he acknowledge and agree to disclose any and all contact with her?
      If you answered yes to the above, ask him why!
      Why did contact continue?
      Why did he fail to disclose the renewed contact?
      What was his plan? (THERE’S ALWAYS A PLAN!!!!)
      Was there a statute of limitation (expiration date) on his participation? Say 4 years?

      Sounds like you are in this boat by yourself. He has bailed on you.

      Do you think his disrespectful family encouraged or facilitated the renewal of the affair?
      I feel that is just what he’s doing. You are outside of his circle and he sounds completely insensitive to the pain you are feeling.
      I’ll pray you will find strength in yourself

  18. Stuckinthemud August 14, 2015 at 8:57 am #

    Hi everyone- Thank you Linda and Doug for your website and info. I have been a follower since my D-day June 14, 2014. My husband is a professional in our community. He is also an alcoholic. We have been going to counseling individually and jointly. He goes to AA and I go to Al-anon. With all this help, I would think I could get over his betrayal, but this is the problem: He “communicated” with a woman for over six months by text and meeting her at a local bar with a group of people for “bitch sessions”. The text communications were sometimes daily and multiple times a day. He refuses to tell me her name, claiming he doesn’t know her name, that he just saved her in his phone as ASW(attention seeking whore). His phone is provided by work so I can not access the bill. I asked for the bill, but he refused to get it to me. The bill is no longer online the phone company keeps them online for 90days. A court order is now needed to access them. I absolutely do not believe that he does not know her name. He claims blackouts, but six month of every communication he had with her, really? He chooses not to tell me. He has a photographic memory and plays the “alphabet” game if he can’t remember a person’s name(starts with a and list all the names that start with a; then b etc.) He keeps saying “I’m not going down that road” when I ask him about it or her. He has made a lot of progress since D-day: not going to the bar everyday, coming home, being more helpful around the house. He doesn’t talk about his betrayal other than admitting he screwed up and is sorry for it, at least in the counselors office. I just cant seem to put the fact behind me, that he is not telling me the truth about who she is. Why does it bother me so? Everything goes fine until something triggers me to think: as long as I sweep this under the rug and don’t question him life is okay. There is not a bone in my body that believes that he does not know her name. I struggle everyday with wondering if I can live with someone that is hiding the truth. I don’t trust him. I have given him the 24 things a cheater has to do to help the betrayed heal. He is going to counseling and not contacting her(that I know of). Other than that…. The alcohol is a continuing problem even with aa. I’m trying to be patient, but get so down about it. Any help or words of wisdom…….

    • TheFirstWife August 14, 2015 at 2:07 pm #

      You are facing multiple issues here. I am sorry you are in this position.

      I know how you feel. My H would not admit he loved the other woman even though I saw he wrote it in numerous emails. It almost ruined our marriage. I felt if he lied about that then he will continue to lie about other things.

      We had a fight almost weekly over this. Until he finally admitted it. It changed everything when he admired it.

      For you, you are smart enough to know he does know her name. Why he refuses to tell you is interesting. Maybe you know her. Maybe you work with her. There has to be done reason he will not reveal that detail.

      I think you have to decide if this is a deal breaker for you. I have the same issue with my H and a prior EA. I saw it and confronted him about it. He saw how upset it made me but denied anything. This was before cell phones, etcetera. Fast forward he admitted to his last OW that he had cheated on me previously with a girl in grad school. When the most recent OW told me this and he admitted cheating I confronted him. He said yes I admitted it to the most recent OW but it was not a physical affair with grad school girl only an EA. Not a PA.

      Don’t believe it but he is sticking to that story. So he would never admit he had anything inappropriate with grad school girl to me but admitted it to a stranger.

      Still bugs me to this day. Same as you. Admit her name – what is your H’s issue with her name? If he won’t admit it there is some reason. My H would not admit anything inappropriate with grad school girl b/c that would mean he was wrong.

      I would stop asking b/c you know the answer. You can always hire a private investigator to get you the information. Anyone can hack anything these days. You can threaten him with that too. Tell him you will get the details on your own. See what he does. Then do it if you must.

  19. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 11:01 am #

    She was a family friend ( mil and sil) for over 16 years. After the affair I told his mom and sis it was disrespectful of them to continue talking with her , they still go to her house for parties. My mother in law who is actually very Christian told me that they have been friends for 16 yrs and their relationship is different then the one they have with me. They ” love ” me. I thought they weren’t talking to her for quite a while and then just recently found out that they are. They know it upsets me but they insist they love me. My hubby insists he can’t tell his mom who to be friends with. I have sought counseling and the counselor has told me I need to set and keep boundaries with my inlaws and husband. And there has to be REAL consequences. Not lip service. I informed my mother in law that the witch is once again trying to get back in my husbands life and she couldn’t believe it. Seriously???? You’ve been keeping in contact with her!!! My mother in law now has cancer and she is dieing. Not wishing death on her or trying to be morbid but I am 110% sure this cow will be at the wake , funeral and amy gatherings. I have no idea what I’m going to do

    • TheFirstWife August 16, 2015 at 10:25 am #

      I forgot to tell you one thing. When the OW contacted my H to try and start up again for the third time it was done via email. He took his iPad and immediately showed it to me. He did. It respond and was so upset she contacted him as he knew how I felt.

      Too bad your H did not take the same path. He is definitely getting some reward from her attention and email.

      Total disrespect to you unfortunately. Maybe he knows you won’t actually do anything about it and there are no real consequences except you get angry which he is willing to take. Why would he play you if he loves you as he says? Makes no sense.

      • TheFirstWife August 16, 2015 at 10:26 am #

        Should say he did not respond

  20. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 11:05 am #

    And trust me , she will be there with bells on and in top form. I am quite sure she will flit about the family and make small talk and purposely piss me off. And I am quite sure she will be all over my husband with her condolences. I informed him that if he says 1 word to her I will file for divorce. The whole family knew what happened and I will not be humiliated again. He said that of course he would have to say “hi”. Can you believe it? I do love him , he was and is my soulmate but I won’t put up with this disrespect forever. Sometimes I wonder if I’m here because I love him or because I don’t want her to have him.

  21. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 11:07 am #

    I am fairly intelligent. Lol. I know it may seem like I’m cutting off my nose to save my face. But her not having him at all gives me some sort of or perverted happiness. Haha. Don’t get me wrong , my husband and I have fun, barely fight, have a good life. It’s not like I’m being a martyr

  22. Connie August 14, 2015 at 11:33 am #

    My husband, who has had two affairs, during our 21 years together, is still ambivalent about our marriage and whether he’s in or out. It’s been 2 yrs since the second affair D-Day, although it took another 14 months to admit to being physically intimate. We started marital counseling, which turned into individual counseling after two sessions. Husband won’t talk about the affair. He will read your info and Lee Baucom’s podcasts if I send them and put some pressure or begging, encouragement, etc., and then might comment “interesting”, but that’s the extent of any dialog.

    I recently moved out, because I was in such a fight/flight mode…feeling so hurt and dejected. It has been healthy for me and my husband loves it…no pressure from his wife to deal with this…no constant reminder of the pain he caused from his infidelities. I’m taking this time to work on seeing this from different and new perspectives and reflection. He’s taking this time to relax and put it all behind him. We have an 8th grade daughter. At what point do I throw in the towel? I’m still willing to do whatever it takes to strengthen and rebuild our marriage. But he has yet to commit to rebuilding. I know I will thrive w/o him and I’m not afraid of being alone. I just believe in commitment and self improvement and the possibility and joy of using adversity for positive growth and change. So it’s hard for me to give up. Any advice?

    • TheFirstWife August 14, 2015 at 12:07 pm #

      You can keep trying but he is showing his hand. He is not invested in you or the relationship.

      I honestly think if you told him you wanted a divorce he would not try and talk you out of it. He appears to be waiting for you to make that move. Coward that he is.

      If you have tried everything and two affairs later he is on the fence, you should take that as a sign. It is and always will be all about him. For the rest of your life.

      You should start with your plan B and put into action your financial affairs and your vision for co-parenting together. See a divorce lawyer and/or mediator so you know your rights. Have every piece of paper you need – bank accounts, iRA statements, mortgage details, insurance and health insurance. You should have $ in your own name he has no access to. (Can you tell I worked for a divorce attorney for many years? Haha.

      You need to be prepared for your child’s sake so if you divorce you can make it an easy transition.

      My idiot H even told the OW I was preparing for the divorce at one point. He was right, I was. Still did not stop him from the affair. When I finally had enough after 6 months of his crap I had saved $, had a therapist ready to help tell our kids, had a plan and he had to leave. We were staying in house. He had to go elsewhere. Boy did that wake him up.

      I also had him sign a post-nup. Any $ in my name is mine and are not considered marital assets in case of a divorce.

      We are still together and he has changed but now I have my mojo back. He sees me in a whole new light. For the better. Good luck to you. Keep us posted.

      I pray for a turn around but if not, know you deserve better.

  23. Ken August 14, 2015 at 11:40 am #

    Move on. They don’t care.

  24. Cindy August 14, 2015 at 1:59 pm #

    Move on …. Such a simplistic answer to a complex problem. If we were dating or married 1 or 2 years that would be easy. Lol. It’s been 25 years with no cheating , kids , house, mutually owned business. Not that easy to throw in the towel even if that’s what he technically did.

    • TheFirstWife August 14, 2015 at 2:15 pm #

      I hear you. All the other things plus 25 years make it hard to just walk away. But I think you need to be prepared just in case.

      Also sounds like mud life crisis issues now with sick mom and that can bring up and exacerbate a lot of issues. Which is why the cow can get through to him. Maybe at a different time he would have blocked her completely

      We were married 25 years too when my H’s EA/PA took place. Typical mid life crisis.

      My H used to sit in his car on his cell phone in the driveway talking to her. I once saw a 73 minute phone call (before he knew I coukd check his cell phone). I saved everything I have as evidence just in case.

      I hope the cow goes away soon.

  25. Rachel August 16, 2015 at 5:48 am #

    Connie,
    Document everything from the beginning . If you do end with divorce, something’s help as far as alimony and child support. My attorney made sure the pre judge knew that he looked up an ex girlfriend and had an affair.
    The first wife is so right!!!! Get some cash in your own name. Put some in a safe deposit box.
    Everything is separated during a divorce. My ex makes 6 figures, I am barely over poverty level, yet he was able to keep my small account as everything is 50/50.
    Same thing with my ex. Wouldn’t talk about “her” until he accidentally called me by her name. They were soul mates (God, I hate that word)!!!
    Left his family to be together. She never left hers.
    I understand your belief of commitment. I felt the same way. But when you are the only one doing the work, Its just not worth it.
    Life is so much better and calmer not worrying what your spouse is doing.
    Good luck.

    • TheFirstWife August 17, 2015 at 12:37 pm #

      So where is the ex now? Moved on to some other poor unwitting victim?

  26. Tryinghard August 16, 2015 at 8:25 am #

    Connie
    I hope you are taking what others are saying seriously. The only thing I would add is quit listening to the words your h and mil say. Actions is what matters. Forgot seriously??? Yes he does have an iq of a grape and he believes you do too.

    Look to start to the texting and who knows what else after 4 years is insanity on his part and insanity making on your part to allow it. Real love doesn’t do this. This is NOT acting in a loving manner. Why do you think he keeps it secret? He likes it that’s why. Why else would a grown man do this if he weren’t getting something out of it. He is being totally disrespectful to you and your marriage. He has control over it. She’s not holding a gun to his head. Indeed she is manipulative but he is just as bad even worse than her. Mil? Dying or not. She’s out!! No contact. She could give a shit about you or your boundaries or your feelings.

    Obviously he didn’t learn much from the last go round and guess what? You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. So help me God if the OW in my life sent one “hell” text and he didn’t tell me and I found out, three words, IM OUTA HERE!!!

    I feel awful for you because like I you so want to believe their words but they are liars and you are too good to him.

  27. Cindy August 16, 2015 at 4:08 pm #

    There was absolutely a no contact rule. I never actually voiced a consequence because it never occurred to me that she would be trying to get him back 4 years later. He insists he told her he wasn’t going to start up with her again. Told her right away. Who knows if this is true. I am taking it one day at a time right now and I am going to counselimg myself. However , this time I gave him an ironclad consequence of he makes any sort of contact with her. Divorce. Period. No more questions or talking. Still don’t know how my part in this will play out. Working on myself. But u til I figure out what I want to do he is not allowed any sort of contact whatsoever

  28. Exercise grace August 17, 2015 at 8:56 am #

    Cindy, this may sound very blunt but to me? Having ANY form of contact with her after the affair and seeing what that did to you? IS starting it up again. I would view that as resuming the emotional part of the affair. Period. Whatever was said, however mild and benign (to him) is just the first step back into affairyland.

  29. Cindy August 17, 2015 at 9:08 am #

    I agree. When I saw the texting on phone bill , my kneesactuay buckled. Went to counselimg and counselor said he is actually telling me what he wants by his actions. I’m just not listening. She said he does what he wants because he can. There have been no ” real consequences ” for him. Told me if I’m not ready to leave that I have to come up with real consequences and stick to them. I know it sounds ridiculous to everyone inc me. But he is so loving and affectionate and good to me after he does something wrong that it’s hard to enforce consequences. I know he’s manipualting me I just don’t know how to stop it. I hate that I turned into this weak woman that i don’t even recognize. I’m trying to work on my self esteem with the counselor

    • TryingHard August 17, 2015 at 10:17 am #

      Oh Cindy I know how you feel. My husband is very good at turning on the charm when he needs to. It’s so hard to be a toughie when they do that. They learn that crap early when dealing with Mommy right? The last thing they want is for ANYONE to be mad and I do mean anyone. Including the OW and his mother. So they put all women in the same bag!

      My husband deals with two emotions. Happy or Mad. There’s nothing in between. You are either happy or mad and he will spit gold coins to bring that happy back. It is exasperating because you are not dealing with anyone on an adult level. Maybe you could face him with that in mind. He is reacting from a very childlike level. Even when children show remorse and are contrite they still must learn there are consequences to their actions. You see it all the time with convicts. They all find Jesus, are sorry, cry, show regret. Sorry pal you still murdered that person and you are staying in prison not matter how sorry or regretful you are.

      You have to find a communication style where your husband gets it. That whole “he forgot” story line is pure manipulative bullshit. He is manipulating you with his charm and then will continue to go off and do just as he pleases. The question is how much disrespect is too much for you? When does that final straw break the camels back? He’s acting like he doesn’t know right from wrong and that is very immature and childlike. Someone has to be the adult in the family and unfortunately that falls on you right?

      I’m so sorry you are still dealing with this 4 years later 🙁

      • TheFirstWife August 17, 2015 at 12:42 pm #

        Extremely well put. You are right on the money. He is playing her like a three year old child.

        Always look to the actions. That says it a all.

  30. Gizfield August 17, 2015 at 10:04 am #

    Cindy, your self esteem will begin to repair itself, AFTER you quit tolerating your husband’s crap with this low rent loser he is carrying on with. Not before then.

    • theresa August 17, 2015 at 1:09 pm #

      A refresher course for the betrayed.

      https://beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com/the-180/

      I come back to this once in a while when I need a kickstart. I feel this gives me some control in small bites. Helps me to refocus on what I can doi. It’s words and actions I control. No more reacting to him and his angst.
      Not painless, but necessary.

      (Also posted on today’s self esteem blog)

      • TryingHard August 17, 2015 at 3:42 pm #

        Theresa
        Really great advice. Thanks for posting that link. I just forwarded that link to a friend on mine who is right in the beginning of discovery 🙁

        • TheFirstWife August 17, 2015 at 4:12 pm #

          I read something similar two years ago when I first found out about the affair. This is hard to do when your spouse is acting the way they are. But I believe it did save us. I remember at one point at the end of the summer I told my H that as a family we no longer had any social commitments and we should get a shared family calendar so we could coordinate our schedules w/ kids, etc. I thought less communication and me having to ask questions

          He then asked me about a charity event I was running and I told him he was not obligated to attend as we were not really “together” any more.

          He was shocked I said that. I said it like a very non-chalant factual statement

          He was shocked. Never thought I would say it and mean it.

          However 2 weeks later he went running back to OW. But he definitely played both sides of fence b/c he was treating me so great. And lying to her as well. His mid life crisis was so bad even he did not know what he wanted

          But at least he knew I wasn’t going to wait around for him to decide.

          I think this article has a lot of merit and value.

      • TheFirstWife August 17, 2015 at 4:23 pm #

        I also know that the OW or affair partner has used this against the wife, citing it as “proof” the wife does not care about the H.

        I think the advice for the 180 is useful in getting the betrayed spouse’s sanity back AND setting a tone for dealing with the issues and affair.

        We had far too many disagreements where I ended up in tears b/c I could not believe how mean and nasty my H was. However I tried to do it in private and not let him see the emotions. However the numerous times he told me he did not want to be married anymore- those tears I could not hide. I am not that good at hiding emotions.

        • TryingHard August 17, 2015 at 5:01 pm #

          First Wife
          They do say awful hurtful things. Those words are seared into my psyche. I think 180 is great advice BUT you every once in a while have to reiterate that you would like your marriage to work and that you care for them but those words have to be spoken at the right moment. It’s a delicate line. One I’m not sure I could do again :/

  31. Patty August 17, 2015 at 9:42 pm #

    It has been a year since D-Day and I don’t know if I have ever been really angry at my H. When the affair came out I knew that we were having issues and I really felt he was a useless piece of flesh for some time. I can own where our marriage was not good but I don’t own the affairs he had. My heart broke when I found out and I just wonder if I am missing something because I haven’t been really angry!

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 8:59 am #

      Do you have resentment?

      • Patty August 18, 2015 at 10:57 am #

        No! I work with emotionally disturbed children for 22 years so I think I’ve just learned how to deal
        With things differently

  32. Cindy August 18, 2015 at 10:45 am #

    Patty. I think you are describing apathy. You’re not angry anymore and you don’t get mad or care. Not a good place for a marriage , but a safe place for your heart. I know it’s not healthy to be apathetic but sometimes I wish I could be. I wish I didn’t care or get hurt or get mad. Sometimes I wish I could just live my life and not care one way or the other. Seems like life would be easier that way

    • Patty August 18, 2015 at 10:58 am #

      I do care!

  33. Peggy August 18, 2015 at 1:07 pm #

    My two cents. I’m tired of having to read that I need to take responsibility for my part in my H affair. I have always automatically checked myself. At this point I realize now that this is a gift. So when I say I literally did nothing to cause my H affair directly or indirectly I’m coming from a place of complete investigation of me and I also have no capacity for hiding truth from myself.
    I’m hoping that only a few of you are or have been married to narcissist’s or partners with severe passive/aggressive behaviors. If any of you were you would understand my frustration.
    Being blindsided is an understatement. My H is a pro at deception. He has never thought of anyone but himself unless the other had something he needed. He does not have the capacity to tell the truth because of his serious fear of confrontation. He was also able to create a story about me that was completely fabricated by this mind so he could give himself permission to have his affair. He has admitted all of this so I’m not just stating from myself alone. He’s 5 years into finally seeing his truth of who he had been and what he hasn’t been able to alter yet. After learning all of this about him and him finally being able to tell me who he is can I say I literally was not in any way responsible for any if it.
    Our marriage was great. I was a great wife. I loved him unconditionally. First mistake. I trusted him. Second mistake. Being the master manipulator that he was I had nothing to go on even afterwards. He gave me no body language or personality shift to put up my antennas.
    I have spent years studying all of this and even hopeful that I could find out what I did consciously or subconsciously to be a participant in the tearing down of our marriage.
    So to conclude, not everyone must see their part in their marital demise.
    I haven’t said much about this because most people will just view it as me being in denial or just making excuses. I know that isn’t true for me. I only loved him. That was my only aspect that I brought.
    I’d love to hear an expert talk about what it is like to be married to a narcissist and P/A individual.
    I can say that it has been life altering.

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 1:32 pm #

      Hi Peggy. There are articles on this site associated with narcissistic personalities.

      They are helpful. And while blogs on this site about mother in law narcissistic personalities and the drama they inflict in the marriage of their children. Truly horrific.

      I wholeheartedly agree that for most of us here we did not cause the affair. Or contribute the spouse’s reason for having one. It is all on them. Their choice.

      My H had a mid life crisis. Plain and simple. Some cute 30yo psycho but job showed him some attention and he fell for it. He was hooked on the infatuation stage of the relationship. I think when they claim that “soul mate” crap I often think, yeah let me know how that goes 2 years into the relationship. I try to talk SPORTS to my H now and I get nothing.

      On any event they are all good at lying and cheating and manipulating. So we either put up with it or divorce. Sometimes they are no-win choices for us.

      Sometimes they do learn from their mistakes but unfortunately the damage is done and it is hard to rebuild the relationship to what it was. Oh and that usually means the BS does most of the work.

      In any event when my H had is affair w/ OW part 2 he was sooo happy with us and our relationship. When I found about the start up and affair part 2 I knew it never ever had anything to do with me. It was his choice. I have the option of leaving any time he wanted. I started living my own life in some ways b/c I felt he was not totally invested in us.

      Turns out I was right. He wasn’t. He was planning to leave me all along.

      I saw his email to OW telling her he was going to get off the hamster wheel and do what was “best for him”. Funny thing was I was not stopping him from leaving.

      He was so confused he did not know what he wanted and I had such fun going down that path. But Peggy you are right it was never about us But all about their “happiness” and bad choices.

      And now I sm supposed to believe I am “it” for him and he deeply loves me.

      Hah!

    • antiskank August 18, 2015 at 5:15 pm #

      Peggy,

      I agree wholeheartedly!!! I am NOT responsible for HIS affair!!! I, too have a passive-aggressive narcissist, it seems. He also has an aversion to telling the truth. Although I’m no expert I have read so much on the subject that even my counselor suggested that I should be doing her job. lol

      I have looked at every possible way that I could have “caused” him to have an affair. I am not in denial and I did not cause the affair. I have come to the conclusion that I have contributed to my marriage being less than perfect for myself. What did I do?
      – Loved him completely
      -Trusted him completely
      – Believed him to be an honest, ethical,. moral person
      – Did everything I could for him
      – Let him get away with treating me like I didn’t matter
      – Didn’t push for him to talk to me when I was unhappy about his behaviour
      – Let him spend money without questioning
      – Let him have his way when we wanted different things
      – Let him take me for granted
      – Put him before myself in all situations
      – Learned how to do everything for myself and never asked for help

      In short, the way I see it and I’m sure that way he sees it – I was his doormat! I was easy to take for granted, easy to manipulate because I didn’t want him to be unhappy. I used to think that it would be a no-brainer to love me- after all I did everything I could to make him happy! But he just assumed that he could do anything he wanted and I would still be there to do his cooking, cleaning, and whatever else his evil little mind cooked up.

      I was SO incredibly shocked and devastated when I discovered his affair. I never thought it could happen to us. That was where my denial lay.

      That was over 3 years ago. Now, things are changing! No more doormat, no more giving up what I want for him. I have not kicked him out yet but it is certainly a topic of discussion because I just don’t think he is doing what he needs to be doing to be able to stay in my life. He is having great difficulty with these changes. He has a hard time taking any responsibility beyond saying he is sorry. He doesn’t want to talk about anything much besides the weather and people at work. I have definitely given him more chances than any person deserves but I don’t think he gets it. I don’t give up easily and am being very careful to not get conned again while trying to see if he is worth the effort.

      I have tried the 180 type behaviour for long stretches of time. Maybe I wasn’t convincing enough. He seems to think if I’m not bringing up any of our problems that all is well.He does nothing at all!

      I am angry with myself for being such a trusting fool but I really would not have wanted to be any other way. Now I feel that I will never really know how he feels about me or what he is thinking. I am embarrassed to admit that I still love him, but I will walk away if I can’t feel happy and secure with him in my life. He has a lot of work to do, a lot of repair work in store. i don’t know if he’s up to the task!

    • Strengthrequired August 18, 2015 at 5:33 pm #

      Peggy, a post a woman named misty aimed at me, that I had tried to respond to her, but it would not post, had told me. She was a counsellor for 12 yrs and that we needed to take responsibility for our spouses cheating on us.
      I wanted to tell her that I had been blamed, had even blamed myself for my husbands affair, and I won’t ever do that again. I was depressed after having our last child, and he was going through his midlife,depression, which led him to cheat. Me being depressed was not a valid excuse for him to have an affair. Truth is, he should have been there for me, but he turned his back. I did not turn my back on my husband, I helped him through his midlife/depression.
      He wanted to escape reality.
      So no, his affair is on him, I’m not taking on his affair as being my responsibility. That is on him, even with misty’s wonderful counselling career of 12 years. I’ve been married longer than that and children older than that too, with no real dramas until the affair turned our world upside down.
      So if misty thinks that my depression I went through was a reason to cheat, she should think again.

  34. Cindy August 18, 2015 at 1:16 pm #

    My husband is a passive aggressive narccist with low self esteem. Lol. He is a master manipulator and has an excuse for everything. He is soooo good at what he does , that even when I’m super mad at him he can convince me its my fault. Lol. I kid you not

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 1:38 pm #

      My son tries that routine. It does not ever work and I call him on it.

      Shut that behavior right down. My younger son is very handsome too. He tries that crap at times and I tell him to stop here and now.

      Maybe if I don’t tolerate it their wives won’t have to deal with it either.

      Clearly it worked for so long for them.

      And Cindy MAYBE your H does not have low self esteem any more. My H is the same way. Good looking but shy with girls when he was young. Well sorry you can’t start trying toke up for lost time now that you are married.

  35. Cindy August 18, 2015 at 1:42 pm #

    My h did the same thing. Told the OW that they were soul mates and he told her I was making it hard for him to leave. ie; controlling $, turning kids against him etc etc etc. Lol. I never stopped him. She once told me that I should just give him up and stop making him stay with me. Seriously??? They never know what they want. They know they want a little extra on the side but when the bullet hits the bone , they want us to make the decision. Not them

  36. Cindy August 18, 2015 at 1:53 pm #

    That’s something I have struggled with. I could never figure out how he could have low self esteem and be a narccist. My counselor told me people with low self esteem from childhood develop narccism as a coping mechanism. And he too , was very shy and ” unworthy” of women when he was younger. But these Cougars nowadays think he’s the next best thing to God. Now he is established and has a good job and a home and after I put up with all the crap for 25 yrs. now they want him. Lol. Believe me, women fall over him everywhere we go. They don’t seem to care that I am standing there. And it boots his ego quite a bit

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 2:33 pm #

      I find almost any age will chase these guys. My H and I met in college. He was smart & cute but most girls would not look at him. No flashy car, no $, just a nice guy w/ a great sense of humor. Everyone liked him.

      Married 25+ yrs, together 30+yrs. his last OW was 29, psycho drama queen coveted in tattoos. He met her at a bar one night, hired her to work for him and that’s when it took off. Past OW was a depressed drama queen who was his age. All of these women knew he was married but did not care. They wanted him.

      Me? I am slim and attractive and get hit on by guys (often people we both know). I smile and move away and decline. And immediately tell him about it. And we laugh about it b/c why would I want some other loser married guy? Really? I chalk it up to them being drunk or stupid or both.

      We have so much in common. When the last OW appeared suicidal b/c of this whole mess, my H did not even care that he was the cause of it. He just wrote her off. Walked away w/ no blood on his hands. He had this girl convinced he was leaving me to be with her. I saw it in the emails. He denies it and says I wasn’t really leaving you and I am not sure why she thought that. Uhh b/c you told her you were leaving me.

      Here is the best yet. Last night we were talking about the past and I was saying I would like to know what people think of me. He asked why would I want to know. And I said b/c I would probably be surprised. I then referenced how he spoke about me to the OW. He said he never said anything bad about me. Really?!! Telling someone you are unhappily married for 2 years paints me in such a great light. I am sure your OW had a really great mental picture of me.

      How clueless can he be? If I was so wonderful and fabulous (in his mind) why are you cheating?

      I believe these guys live the attention they get and the boost to their ego. And if they can get away with something on the side they will.

      I am raising my sons so much better. I tell them how to treat girls and what is acceptable. If my mom & dad ever found out I cheated on my H, boy would they be mad at me. And rightfully so. Unacceptable behavior.

      We should write a book on this. What to look for and how to avoid becoming a spouse to a narcissist. I predict best seller. And they get no share of the earnings. Ha!

      • Strengthrequired August 18, 2015 at 5:12 pm #

        Tfw, my husband said the same thing. He never said a bad word about me. It’s not what I heard. He told me if the ow said a bad word against me he would get upset with her, but come on, if I was so wonderful in her eyes she would be wondering why he was with her. I’m not stupid, he didn’t paint me in a good light. How else are they able to justify the affair if they make us out to be wonderful.

  37. Cindy August 18, 2015 at 2:39 pm #

    We could write a book and I’m site it would be a best seller. Lol. My H would argue that I had time to write a book because he works harder than me. Lol. Then he would claim I could write a book about narccists because that’s me. Haha.

  38. TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 2:51 pm #

    So funny.

    I never held my H back from leaving but I was not going to say I wanted the divorce. I figured he would have to man up and say it. And he did. Twice. In one week.

    The second time when he changed his mind yet again, I was so distraught I would not even answer him when he changed his mind. I was tired of being a yoyo. So I told him to leave.

    Boy did he get a jolt. And he did not like it.

    But now I regret not making him leave but at the time I had just suffered a very unexpected death in the family and I asked him to stay for our children’s sake.

    But I think if he had left the impact would have been harsher, which I think he needed.

    Sad to say but I sometimes wonder what will happen next. He swears he learned his lesson and how wrong he was, blah blah blah. But I remember how mean and cruel and nasty and self centered he was during the affair.

    I never want to see that guy again. ever. Yet I fear he could easily return.

    Especially if some hot young OW appears.

    • Strengthrequired August 18, 2015 at 5:14 pm #

      My husband was mean, cruel and nasty during his affair too. I don’t want to see that side of him again either.

      • antiskank August 18, 2015 at 5:31 pm #

        My H was compliant and cooperative but not very communicative during his affair. It was after I “helped” him end it that he got nasty. It seemed like it wasn’t devastating enough to betray me after all these years, he had to attack every possible thing he could about me. He said so many hurtful, cruel vindictive things I am still in shock. Each knife thrown hit its mark and caused me excruciating pain that has yet to go away or be dealt with. I recall listening to him destroy me with a smile on his face and me saying “Thank you for your honesty.”
        I have so many triggers around those cruel acts still. And yet I am totally bewildered how he could talk then so freely and openly about how I was the worst person in the world and now cannot seem to utter a word. He can’t explain his attitudes or behaviour. He can barely even speak to me. At least when he was berating and belittling me, he had some enthusiasm, now he is like a zombie who cares about nothing. How do you deal with it?

        • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 5:56 pm #

          So you live in almost basic silence with your H?

          I would get a divorce or at the very least get away from him as much as possible every day. Until I could get out

      • Lynsey August 20, 2015 at 5:11 pm #

        All that nastiness and cruelness is so hard to forget, isn’t it? Things are better now with my H, but he claims he doesn’t remember being so harsh. Selective memory so he doesn’t feel too bad about himself!

        • Strengthrequired August 20, 2015 at 5:49 pm #

          My husband doesn’t remember how he was either towards me. He does not remember what he said to me. He sent me a text one day and told me he had found the person he is meant to be with, meaning her. I replied back to him, how he was a coward for not being a man and telling me to my face.
          He didn’t believe me that he had sent that to me, and as I had kept the texts, and showed him, he was shocked that he did that. Yet he saw it for himself that he indeed did say it. Yet he could have sworn black and blue that he didn’t.
          However if you believe it, the day after sending me that text, he was visiting me., and moved back home the following week. This was during the beginning stages of his affair and he had moved out of home, for a month.

  39. Ken August 18, 2015 at 3:25 pm #

    You ladies are talking about things that are standard practice for cheaters.
    My wife cheated with her boss. 12 years younger. My wife is a hot little thing and while she was cheating she ensured my children, adults and I knew it. Knew that she felt young and that guys starred at her all the time……..
    Same shit… soul mates, they have everything in common, loves me not in love, we grew apart, she was unhappy (blamed me), I was off biking etc etc.
    These are all standard textbook excuses. These people are cowards that’s all and they all get caught.
    It’s been 3.5 years, I actually picked up the divorce document today from the lawyer, now I can get married again………….like that will happen soon!
    Anyway, the soulmates (I think she meant playmates) lasted 2 more years, then he left the company and her. I noticed recently on Facebook that he has a new gf. 11 years younger………..now there’s a surprise if I ever could have guessed.
    People hang on………I know it hurts, I cried for almost 3 years, however I was never given a choice. She was never interested in me. 27.5 years married, together 31 years and cheated. Never thinking about the pain that would be suffered by her actions.
    I was a good husband and father. I treated that girl like a princess. I never hit on or looked at other women.
    My saving grace………..she earns big bucks and I don’t pay her a cent….. How good is that!
    Now she gets to do something we use to discuss. she use to discuss……how she would hate dating at this stage of life… Well honey welcome aboard.
    I’m doing things now that I never dreamed I’d be doing……..interesting world being single. Difference is I’m not sneaking around like a cockroach.
    It sucks, however 9/10 times you can’t change them. It is what it is.
    My kids live with me and I talk to them about cheating. Don’t, if you’re unhappy then do things properly, work it out or move on.

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

      Hi Ken. Thanks for sharing. You are right in that cheaters live by their own rules, narcissistic or not. It is all about them.

      I am glad you are raising your kids differently too. That is the ow thing I can pass on. Bright from wrong. Learn what is acceptable. Do the right thing, no the right for only you thing.

      I think you hung in there but I am surprised you did for so long, given what was going on. She flaunted it in your face? Wow you are a strong person to put up with that.

      Not sure I could have done it for as long as you. I was fed up after 1 year of the drama and crap. I give you credit for what you endured.

      I hope it gets better for you. I hope it gets better. By ou deserve it.

    • TryingHard August 18, 2015 at 3:39 pm #

      Ken
      Narcissism, cluster B personality disorders etc has no gender definition. You are correct there is a cheater vernacular and its.all.the.same.all.the time in.every. single.situation!!

      Congrats on your divorce being final. I hope you can forget about the witch and find a nice woman. Be picky though and careful. Nice men like you are a premium out there.

      And I agree unless you are going to have babies there is no need to redo that shit show called marriage!! Now get out there and have yourself some fun!

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 6:03 pm #

      Ken I new something was amiss one night when out of the blue my H started telling me how young I look and how many guys were still interested in me and how I could easily get a date.

      I looked at him and said I don’t want a date b/c I have you and I love you and don’t need anyone else. I could not figure out where this was coming from. It made no sense.

      One week later he asked for a divorce. Now I understand the comment.

      Easing his guilty conscience.

  40. Ken August 18, 2015 at 3:44 pm #

    Just to clarify, she left the house 2 weeks after we told my kids. unfortunately I couldn’t let the cat out of the bag for 2 months after she got caught. My daughter was finishing 4th year university so I had to suck it up for her sake.
    Funny thing is she, told both her and my lawyer that I threw her out of the house.
    I should have.
    I just mourned for a long time.
    Not anymore. stupid ass.

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 5:20 pm #

      There was another guy who has posted on this blog at some point. I thought his story was interesting. His wife cheated and he found out and confronted her. She denied and then admitted bu lied about almost everything.

      He gave her 48 hours to get real and be truthful. When she would not, first thing Monday morning he went to aawyer and started divorce proceedings. Then on Tuesday he met with a therapist.

      Wow! 1-2-3. He felt if you are not going to man up and be real we have nothing left to work on.

      Maybe we can all learn something from him. He avoided the crap that we endure trying to make it work, salvage what’s left while they continue to lie and bury their head in the sand.

      For me the continued lying after the fact was more harmful than the affair. It just further proves what an idiot you are and STILL cannot be trusted.

      My H lied about leaving me to be with the OW, lied about loving her, lied about whether she had photos of him and our children (she did), lied about her age, lied about the start of the relationship (he pursued her first), he lied about spending the night with her in her apartment (he did), etc.

      And the night I found this out I was going through a very bad family situation due to sudden illness that resulted in death a few days later AND our sons were home in the house. I just went to bed and pulled the covers over my head! No yelling. No drama. Just quit being present.

      Funny thing, many of my prior boyfriends cheated. My H had no experience in that arena. Lucky him. He never experienced someone cheating on him. He has no idea what it feels like. I must be a magnet for these idiots. And my H was the guy you would have bet $ on he would never ever behave that way.

  41. Cindy August 18, 2015 at 5:28 pm #

    Y H said I didn’t pay enough attention to him. That was his reasoning. We have 2 kids and a business. I did everything for him but wipe his a$&. When I told him I was completely and utterly blindsided by the affair because I trusted him with my life. He replied that if I paid more attention to him I would have realized it was going on sooner ! Omg. How can you even reason with that

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 5:41 pm #

      I swear our H are twin brothers.

      He felt disconnected. He traveled extensively on business. Two weeks after our second child was born he went to Australia for 2 weeks. Left me with a 3yoband 2 week old. I had no help. I never complained.

      For 20+ years my H would tell me he would be home at 10 pm and roll in the door at 2 am. Excuse? Sorry I forgot to call or I did not want to wake you. I had no idea where he was (NYC) is a big city. I tried everything to get it to change. Not even after 9/11 did it change.

      And yet he was disconnected. He was bored. He was unhappy. Blah blah blah.

      I encouraged him to golf when possible. Played basketball every Sat morning at 7 am. I never slept late one day b/c I felt like he deserved to play since he traveled and his job was stressful. When he wanted to play by all ononday nights I said ok even though he asked at the last minute. I said yes to everything basically because I loved him.

      He was living a very nice life – socialized without me, played sports without me, traveled for business without me.

      He just took advantage of my trusting nature and love.

      Boy was I blindsided. I paid all the bills, managed the $, ran the house, painted and decorated, managed renovations, did grocery shopping, took care of kids single handed my while he was away and never complained.

      After re-reading this I was not his wife I was his house servant. And that’s what I ended up being treated like. I always thought people treat you the way they want to be treated. Boy was I wrong.

  42. Strengthrequired August 18, 2015 at 6:18 pm #

    I’ve noticed a lot of these men that have cheated are business owners or in high position jobs or travel for work. Very rare do you see a ow chase after a married man who seems to be broke. They chase where they think the $$$$ are.

    • TheFirstWife August 18, 2015 at 6:26 pm #

      So true. So funny that most would not give these guys the time of day in their teens and 20s. Now in their late 30s to mid 50s they are a catch.

    • Lynsey August 20, 2015 at 5:19 pm #

      Strenghtrequired….How true. My H’s OW was/is a parasitic whore who took thousands of dollars from my H (and because we’re married, from me too in my opinion) And the stupid jerk willingly gave her anything she wanted because he was so “in love” with the ugly bitch. Meanwhile, I was working 60 hours a week to hold it all together. Talk about being ripped off!

      • TryingHard August 20, 2015 at 5:36 pm #

        Lynsey
        In fact it is not just your opinion. He took what is marital assets and gave them to her. Half those assets ARE yours. The sociopath was able to talk my h out of thousands$$$$$.

        • Strengthrequired August 20, 2015 at 5:51 pm #

          Same here TH.

      • Strengthrequired August 20, 2015 at 5:39 pm #

        Lynsey, it’s true, not only do they take from our husbands, they took from both Us and our children too. I feel ripped off as well. I had no say, in what my husband gave his ow, he just did what he wanted, I think believing he was helping her out, and at the same time getting his ego boosted, he never thought she was just after what he would give, or what he had. I believe he sees things differently now though, (well at least I hope he sees now that he truly was ripped off) we were taken all for a ride, and I was an unwilling passenger of her vehicle.

  43. Cindy August 18, 2015 at 7:32 pm #

    Haha. No kidding. We were barely scraping by when we got married. Just opened the business. That cow wouldn’t have given him a second glance back then

    • Strengthrequired August 18, 2015 at 8:26 pm #

      My husbands ow thought we were rolling in cash, business owner, nice home. If she knew my husband was depressed trying to get customers to pay, so we could pay our suppliers and keep from having the bank take our home, she wouldn’t have stayed. Yet while my husband kept throwing cash her way, she kept holding her hand out for more. Even to the extent of telling him to give her children the same as he gave his own. I’m surprised he didn’t run with his tail between his legs, yet he kept on giving, and our family kept suffering the consequences, we almost lost everything.

  44. Peggy August 18, 2015 at 9:51 pm #

    Wow so glad to hear I’m not the only one. My H didn’t stop abusing until April. Before that he continued to compare me to the OW the point of saying to me that he didn’t like my aging and didn’t like looking at me. When I finally said I’d had enough he came running back. I’m still doing what I have to to leave. Not easy financially. All he eve says is I’m sorry and it’s just not convincing at all. He hasn’t accomplished one thing I’ve asked him to do in five years and I’m not pulling teeth with my request. I’m concentrating on me now and his feelings get hurt. He feels I’m not making him feel wanted. Well being told he didn’t like looking at me for ten years doesn’t make me feel all warm and fuzzy. I was the same with loving to make him happy. Never minded doing more than I should have. Amazing. Seems these guys with P /A and narcissistic behaviors are pros at real subtle manipulation. I pay attention to everything now but honestly it I could save enough money I’d be gone today. I know I have always loved him but love just isn’t enough anymore.

  45. Doug August 20, 2015 at 10:22 am #

    Looks like the Ashley Madison site hackers dumped the private information on the internet for all to see: http://www.thedailystar.net/world/ashley-madison%E2%80%99s-data-dump-threatens-marriages-reputations-129700

  46. TryingHard August 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm #

    DING, DING, DING WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!! Guess whose email address showed up on the AM dump. THE ONE AND ONLY COCKROACH OW!!!!!! Shocking right? Thank God Mr. TryingHard wasn’t on there or me!!!!

    Whoo Hoo it’s a glorious day!!!

    I told you she was a sociopathic creep!

    • Peggy August 20, 2015 at 12:55 pm #

      How did you access the list?

    • TheFirstWife August 20, 2015 at 1:57 pm #

      How did you find it? I need to check it out. Send details ASAP

  47. TryingHard August 20, 2015 at 2:47 pm #

    https://ASHLEY.CYNIC.AL

    type in an email address and it either says it was found or not

  48. TryingHard August 20, 2015 at 3:00 pm #

    trustify.com as well

    • Strengthrequired August 20, 2015 at 5:01 pm #

      I feel not all of the cheaters will learn from this.

  49. theresa August 21, 2015 at 3:20 am #

    Doug, could you repost the blog on the stupid stuff said/done by both combatants?

    I’ll start off. I was married to a saint and he had an affair with a nice, poor soul like person.
    He never:
    looks at other women, has no dream girl (I’m everything he wanted and needs)
    fantasizes about sex with anyone but me
    spoke about his marriage, wife or life with family. She never asked any questions regarding
    his other life, wife, children, not once.
    And after each and every discovery he NEVER thinks about her. Even when work
    situations create oppurtunities quite often. And she lives across the street from our home.

    I especially like when asked about specific words, thoughts and deeds, he evaluates the severity of the question and says
    “You know me! I could never do that to you!

    So who was that masked man?

  50. Heartbroken August 25, 2015 at 6:52 pm #

    So true! My husband gets a pension from being retired from the military and has a good job as a civilian on the base. The OW was his parts lady. If she only knew he doesn’t have two nickels to rub together due to having a nice house and four children, maybe she would have thought twice!

  51. Doug August 26, 2015 at 11:15 am #

    OK, this whole Ashley Madison thing is really going crazy. High profile users, suicides, class action law suites, etc. This article about the Duggar situation might make most of you see red: http://www.inquisitr.com/2364566/anna-duggar-blamed-for-joshs-infidelity-duggar-family-preacher-warns-against-refusing-sex/

  52. theresa December 8, 2015 at 7:51 pm #

    I am still sifting through the BS.
    question for the cheater
    what is the likelihood that his marriage and his spouse was NEVER a topic of discussion?

    (I had posted on this thread a while ago?
    I’ll start off. I was married to a saint and he had an affair with a nice, poor soul like person.
    He never:
    looks at other women, has no dream girl (I’m everything he wanted and needs)
    fantasizes about sex with anyone but me
    spoke about his marriage, wife or life with family. She never asked any questions regarding
    his other life, wife, children, not once.
    And after each and every discovery he NEVER thinks about her. Even when work
    situations create opportunities quite often. And she lives across the street from our home.

    I especially like when asked about specific words, thoughts and deeds, he evaluates the severity of the question and says
    “You know me! I could never do that to you!

    So who was that masked man?

    • TheFirstWife December 8, 2015 at 9:19 pm #

      She lives across the street? Whaaat?

      She would not be living there if she did that to me!!!

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