By Sarah P.

This article is a warning of the things to come. I have no good answer for this situation, but regardless, all the betrayed spouses of the world need to be on guard because Ashley-Madison now has more female subscribers than male subscribers.  

I will give some tips at the end of this article on what you can do, but the most important thing is being aware and having your eyes opened. It may feel good to be an ostrich, but we are at a time in history where being an ostrich could get you killed.

It is my duty to sound the alarm.

When Ashley-Madison was launched, it was at a time when someone building a website catered specifically to married people was still scandalous.

When my friends and I found out about it, we were in shock.

In fact, we reassured ourselves that the only people who would subscribe would be creepy, old men and hard-core sex addicts. (That stereotype could not have been more incorrect.)

When Ashley-Madison’s data was breached in 2015, I smiled a very smug smile and hoped the site would shut down and metaphorically walk away with its tail between its legs.

Sadly, it did not and everything just got worse. Ashley-Madison has helped unleash a tsunami of spouse poachers and they are coming to a city near you.

(Cue satire)

Then, the news broke that the CEO of Ashley-Madison was actually cheating on his wife!!

But, in all of the interviews he gave the world he told us he was a loyal husband who wanted to tap into the financial potential of building websites for cheaters.

He insisted he was a good, loyal family man who just wanted to bring home the bacon. (Eye roll)

Sure, his bacon carried every kind of STD on the planet and I am sure those STDs were giving birth to other horrible STDs we have yet to name and discover. I am pretty sure the population of STD’s exceeded the population of the planet decades ago.

But, the founder of Ashley-Madison did not care about that.

He just saw financial potential and an allegedly discreet and classy way that married people could meet each other for the purpose of blowing up their own lives.

Like literal terrorists who walk into a crowded street with a bomb strapped to them, they will take numbers of innocent people with them when the bomb blows up.

Only since these are emotional terrorists, not literal ones, they get a pass in life.

News flash: Discreet and classy infidelity is an oxymoron that only morons themselves believe. Adultery is never discreet and classy.

And the founder was not one of “those guys,” hint, hint, wink, wink.

Unfortunately, his wife believed he was a wholesome family man bringing home the bacon in rather avant-garde ways.

But, no worries, society would soon get the French letter—and we did. Or was it the Spanish letter… or the Italian letter? Even people in the 1800’s refused to have their classy country blamed for the syphilis epidemic.

“Oh no,” the Spanish said, “it was those French people who spread syphilis. We are too busy saying Hail Mary’s.” And the French said, “We are too busy making Camembert and thinking up more social revolutions to spread syphilis—it must be the Italians.” And the Italians said, “It was not us. We are too busy making homemade pasta and worshiping the Pope to spread syphilis. It must be the Spanish.”

Round and round it went—and so syphilis came to be known as “the (insert country name) letter.” No one wanted to take responsibility so if you were Spanish, you called it “the French Letter.” And if you were French, you called it “the Italian letter.”

During that time, Syphilis was like some kind of sick game of hot potato. The second one country got it, they threw it at another country. And the hot potato that was syphilis just kept getting passed around.

And when people were in the end stages of dying from syphilis, they experienced some really good times in life. They got an enormous and painful rash. And there was more fun to come—in the end stages of syphilis people’s nervous systems and brains were invaded. People developed advancing dementia, psychosis, delirium, paralysis, and death.

That sure sounds like a barrel of laughs good enough to entertain every small village in Europe for generations.

Then there is the AIDS virus.

Has anyone forgotten that?

There is also cancerous HPV.

Cheaters of the world, if you want to ruin your spouse’s life, well, having an affair with someone with cancerous HPV and having sex with your spouse is the way to go. In fact, cheaters of the world, you are also not immune from cancerous HPV and condoms do not protect you from it.

Also…if the other woman or other man says they don’t have STD’s, they could be lying.  People who cheat lie all the time and they lie about everything. If someone is willing to cheat, they will tell enormous lies. They could also be human petri dishes of STDs.

And guess what—the founder of Ashley-Madison wants to make sure that we revive the French/Italian/Spanish letter because that’s what happens when people carry on discreet and classy affairs.

They get syphilis.

But, that’s okay since it starts as just a tiny, little sore. The Ashley-Madison founder also wants to bring back the AIDS virus to large volumes of the population. But, most fun of all, he wants to help cheaters give their innocent, betrayed spouses cancer that starts as HPV numbers 16 and 18.

This guy probably makes a great guest at dinner parties.

He should win an anti-Nobel Prize for his non-contribution to humanity.

Or maybe he should be labeled a terrorist. Anyone who starts a website that proactively assists other people in destroying innocent people is a terrorist. So, in the end, the founder of Ashley-Madison and his website will be known in my mind as a terrorist group. 

They are terrorists against all that is good in the world—they are helping people destroy large numbers of innocent spouses and innocent children. They may not be using physical bombs, but they are using emotional bombs that will create large groups of people who have been destroyed from the inside out, by no fault of their own.

See also  Affair-Proof Your Marriage

I think Ashley-Madison should be shut down and tried for crimes against humanity. But, what do I know? I am just a lowly infidelity specialist with a graduate degree in psychology.

(End satire.)

Ashley-Madison Now Has More Female Subscribers than Male Subscribers

Now, back to hard, cold reality. Again, all of the above was true, but I had to filter it through the lens of satire because some things are just too difficult to process without a little bit of (dark) humor.

Ashley-Madison just reached the tipping point where more women are cheating than men. From USA Today:

“Cheating husbands and wives might be most common in Seattle, according to a report from infidelity website Ashley Madison. 

The dating site for married men and women analyzed its 2017 data, and revealed which cities had the most member signups per capita in a release shared with USA TODAY. The data specifically was pulled from the summer of 2017 and also found that women signups hit an all-time high in July. 

“We know that these women are coming to our site because we provide a discreet platform for like-minded adults to connect and potentially meet,” Ashley Madison’s president and CTO Ruben Buell said in a statement. 

Seattle’s top spot might be partly because it is the birthplace of Starbucks, Ashley Madison suggests, as the coffee chain has the most used gift cards by men who purchase credits on the website.

Denver came in second, with Dallas and Philadelphia not far behind. 

Ashley Madison, which boasts it is “the global leader for affairs,” has more than 54 million member accounts. A little over half of Ashley Madison’s users are female.” 

Here is a list of Ashley Madison’s top 20 cities, according to company’s report: 

  1. Seattle
  2. Denver
  3. Dallas
  4. Philadelphia
  5. San Jose
  6. Los Angeles
  7. San Francisco
  8. Houston
  9. Charlotte
  10. Austin
  11. Columbus
  12. Indianapolis
  13. Chicago
  14. San Diego
  15. New York City
  16. Jacksonville
  17. San Antonio
  18. Washington DC
  19. Fort Worth
  20. Phoenix


Featured Download: “The Top 10 Reasons to Leave Your Affair Partner Now”

If you’re the unfaithful, get it, read it and carefully consider the advice. If you’re the betrayed, give it to your unfaithful spouse.


Something interested occurred to me last week…

…But I did not have time to research it. I speak with people all over the world and I got the impression that I live in an area with a hot-bed of spouse poachers.

I have noticed that spouse-poaching is at an all-time high in my city. But, I figured I was just noticing these things because I write for an infidelity blog. Then, someone sent me that article and it all made sense. My city is in the top three of cheating cities.

I have never been truly scared before in terms of the future of the world.

There have always been people of “ill repute” and they were the subject of gossip. But, it appears in the past, society had so many constructs in place that kept people of ill repute in check.

It dawned on me that adultery, to many female spouse poachers, is the new little black dress. Because of the Ashley-Madison uptick, it also dawned on me that there are more female spouse poachers out there than I believed. Perhaps millions more than I had believed. 

Let us all get it through our heads… Ashley-Madison now has slightly more female subscribers than male subscribers. That means there are a lot of women out there who are so serious about finding an affair partner, they are flooding to websites for cheating.

This has many implications for married women and married men who are monogamous.

In the past, I have often written about the male wayward spouse as the default. Now, I think I may need to use the female wayward spouse as the new default. Until now, there has never been a time in recorded history where female cheaters exceeded male cheaters. 

reasons cheaters don’t want to talk about their affair

A Conversation with My Husband

Last week, my husband said a “clueless husband thing.” He certainly was not man-splaining; it was different. Maybe I will call it “man-think.” Man-think will now be the term that is used when men filter the world through the viewpoint of men and assume that women have the exact same motives as men.

I was trying to explain to my husband the concept of spouse-poaching. The conversation went like this:

Me: “There are more women than you think experiencing what I went through with my ex. What’s worse is there are so many female spouse-poachers that I have lost count. This is so depressing.”

Him: “So spouse poachers do what… they want your marriage? Is that what they want?”

Me: “Yes. They want your marriage, your home, and especially your husband. They want to destroy your life and be you.”

Him: “Oh, that is really evil. Single women usually just want no-strings-attached sex with married men. I did not know they were evil enough to actually want to take the wife’s place.”

Me: “You think when women have affairs with married men all they want is no-strings-attached sex?”

Him: “Well, yeah. Otherwise, why would a single woman have sex with a married man… isn’t she just using him for his body?”

Me: “You believe that women who have sex with married men just want no-strings-attached sex and to use them for their bodies?”

Him: “Well yeah. Otherwise, why would they have sex?  Don’t they have sex with married men just to have fun?”

At that point, my head was tilted at a 90-degree angle and touching my shoulder. I did not know my head could tilt at 90-degree angles either—until today. That started a very deadpan monologue.

Me:  “So you have gotten to middle-age and you still believe that single women have sex with married men because they want no-strings-attached-sex just for fun. I will tell you that a single woman will lie to a married man and lie that she wants no-strings-attached sex—she will lie and say she just wants to be friendly friends with benefits. She will lie and say she does not want a real relationship because relationships are bummers and no-strings-attached-sex is what she wants!! Then she will try to have enough no-strings-attached-sex to very intentionally get pregnant. When that happens, she will cry and say she never wanted a baby—not her. She was just a happy-go-lucky gal who liked to take rides on a variety of male merry-go-rounds. But, she never wanted a baby—especially not the married man’s baby!  And it will all be a lie—an elaborate ruse and an attempt to destroy a marriage and a family so that she can have the wife’s life.”

Him: (He kind of stared a blank stare into the air for about ten seconds.) Then he said, “So you are telling me single women lie about wanting no-strings-attached-sex with married men because they want to break up a marriage and family? Wow, that is really evil that they have sex just to break up families!”

Me: “So, something funny just occurred to me. You never said that having no-strings-attached-sex with married men was evil. It only got evil when you found out the woman was using that as a ruse to break up a family.”

By that time, he was speechless and ended up walking over to the bed and laying down. That’s what he does when he hears something that shakes his worldview.

See also  Advice for the Unfaithful – Conquer Your Fight or Flight Response

The Fall-Out

Then, when I read the article about more women being on Ashley-Madison than men, I freaked out.

The thing that really bums me out the most is that marriage is no longer a safe place. Marriage is no longer a sacred place either. It appears a large part of the married population thinks that marriage is just a piece of paper they signed a long time ago when they were not in their right mind. WRONG.

I do not care if someone follows a religion or if they are an atheist. This does not matter when it comes to marriage, although marriage has been historically “married to” religious institutions.

Here is what matters: stable marriages are and have always been the bedrock of a stable society. This has been demonstrated for millennia, but also heavily studied by sociologists and psychologists.

The financial and emotional costs of a free-for-all and non-monogamous society are extremely high. When most of the population chooses to live immorally, entire civilizations fall.

People have been comparing the United States to the Roman Empire for quite some time. They have been saying all these things like too much immigration, too little immigration, too much socialism, too little socialism, too much government, too little government and on and on. They believe these things will ensure the United States becomes just another fallen empire.

But, these reasons are not why Rome fell.

There were many smaller things that happened to Rome. But, Rome could have survived those external threats if it had a strong moral center based on the 10 Commandments.

If you are an atheist or an agnostic, you do not need to shun the 10 Commandments. I believe the 10 Commandments are a set of principles that guide large societies so that those societies can thrive.

Our secular laws in the Western world are based on the 10 Commandments.  Or they used to be. Adultery used to be illegal in every state in the United States along with trying to steal another man’s wife. That is no longer the case.

But, stealing, killing, and lying are still illegal. Unfortunately, the criminal code against lying is very limited. For example, you can be sued for picking a random movie star, writing a work of pure fiction about their life, and selling it as a real biography. The star could sue the writer under libel laws because the writer was lying. Writers cannot be sued for telling the truth about someone – they can only be sued for making up complete fictions about another, naming that person, and selling the fiction as if it were truth.

Thankfully, writers cannot be sued by telling the truth about someone. Still, I take great pains to hide the identities of people I have observed spouse poaching because their names, ages, locations and all those details are NOT important.

The only important thing is discussing what they did, how they did it, and how a betrayed spouse can handle these situations. Here is the thing about adultery – when you get down to it, every story is the same. Someone somewhere in the world broke their marriage vows and their family is suffering.

But, here is something interesting—slandering people and writing libel about people is illegal. However, during an affair, isn’t the wayward spouse and the affair partner spending all day slandering their partner and committing libel against their partner via text message and email?

No one in the middle of an affair sees their spouse accurately—they often project their terrible behavior onto their spouse and speak and write many lies about their betrayed spouse. Slander and libel are illegal, but not if you slandered your innocent spouse to the affair partner.

Does anyone see anything wrong with that?

Adultery is the Universal Act that Connects Us All

Adultery involves having physical acts or emotional bonds with another outside of marriage. We only have two genders and there is a limit to the variety of acts that can be committed.

No matter where the adultery takes place, there are always common elements: lying, the breaking of marriage vows through physical and/or emotional means, and the terrible affect it has on families. That’s it.

There are very few needs or acts that everyone in the world has in common. Everyone in the world needs food, shelter, clean water, and clothing that protects their body from extreme temperatures. Everyone in the world has experienced being born and everyone on the earth will experience death. These are human universals. But, adultery is also a human universal and it is just as universal and being born and dying.

See also  Men Who Have Affairs Are Insane

There is no culture, no area of the world, no people, no gender, no race, no socio-economic level, no religion, and no sexual persuasion that is immune to adultery. It happens everywhere, all the time, and it literally is as universal and sure as birth and death.

Perhaps the colors of skin change, the languages change, the cultures change, but adultery is always the same. Adultery is the same in Beijing, China, as it is in rural Mississippi. If a betrayed spouse from Beijing and a betrayed spouse from rural Mississippi were put in the same room with a translator, they would talk and share the same events and same emotions.

They would cry together, they would talk about how the experience ruined their family, they would talk about losing the ability to trust, they would speak of the pain that has invaded the very center of their beings that refuses to leave.

They will speak of a pain that is with them from the moment they wake up in the morning to the moment they go to sleep at night. They will speak about the incredible loss that has come with the pain. They will talk about the experience of loss because of adultery and also speak of the paradox that they lost everything but cannot lose the pain. They will cry together as they acknowledge they have (metaphorically) lost everything in their lives except the pain.

So, if you read my blogs and could swear I am talking about Jane and John who live down the road, you are right and wrong at the very same time. You in wrong in thinking I am talking about Jane and John personally, but you are right because what I am writing sounds exactly like Jane and John.

But, I am not speaking about them at all and I have never even met them. Whatever I write that sounds like someone you know speaks to the universality that is adultery itself. I hear from people all over the world and only the names and/or culture changes.

But, adultery is the one thing that is cross-cultural.

It does not matter if Suki is at her favorite restaurant in Tokyo when she finds out her husband is cheating—when he accidentally sends her a text message that was obviously meant for a lover named Niko. It doesn’t matter if Suki is eating udon noodles and sashimi when she finds out. The devastation will be the same.

Simultaneously, Chantal in Paris could be eating a breakfast of croissants and café au lait while reading the news. Her husband has pulled another all-nighter at the office.  As she sips her coffee, she receives a text that says, “I love you but I am not in love with you.” Her whole world has been destroyed in an instant.

At the same time, Jane in NYC could be experiencing insomnia because her husband is at yet another “work dinner” and something feels off. She has decided open her husband’s laptop sitting next to her to surf the web. Instead, Jane finds an email window that is open. She sees an email from a woman she has never met before and this stranger is asking Jane’s husband when he will file for divorce. Boom. Jane’s world is destroyed in five seconds flat.

Adultery is at an all-time high and I believe we have reached the tipping point. Soon we are going to be in for a massive domino affect that reaches far and wide into every corner of civilized society. A billion people could have their lives destroyed… think of the social repercussions.


Featured Download: “The Top 10 Reasons to Leave Your Affair Partner Now”

If you’re the unfaithful, get it, read it and carefully consider the advice. If you’re the betrayed, give it to your unfaithful spouse.


In Summary

I do not have a good solution to any of this.  This is an opinion piece and a warning to readers. I believe that we must speak openly with our spouses about the repercussions. We must set boundaries that reduce or prevent the opportunities to have an affair. We must be awake and alert to this massive change in society.

If any readers believe in prayer, I think it is time for all of us to start praying for the marriages of the world everyday. I have been doing this for quite some time. Every night before I go to bed, I pray for everyone who reads this website, even though I do not know any of you.

I pray that God reaches out to people who might be starting an affair and I pray that God reaches people who are in the middle of an affair. I pray that God wakes them up and breaks through the affair fog, which can be so hypnotic for some people. 

I pray that people turn their backs on their affair partner, no matter what the fall-out. I pray that people work on rebuilding their marriages instead of thinking the grass is greener. It is not greener, I can tell you that. Getting a sample of that greener grass somewhere else causes you to dump a metaphorical water-tower full of weed killer on your own marital lawn. Don’t do it.

If any of you are wayward spouses, I beg you to break off your affair and get help from a therapist immediately. Your affair is not special and your affair partner in not different and certainly not your soulmate. I beg you to get help for both your future and the future of others in your family. Please do this, even if you are in the middle of the affair fog.

I am sounding the alarm to all readers. We must be awake and alert and find ways to support each other during this societal crisis. Please send this post to anyone who you think is involved in an affair or tempted to be in one. All of us who are awake need to stand together and turn the tide.



    61 replies to "Wife’s Worst Nightmare: Ashley-Madison Now Has More Female Subscribers than Male Subscribers"

    • TheFirstWife

      IMO there is a difference between an A and a spouse poacher.

      Yes there are As where the parties never have any intention of leaving their spouses. It is exactly what it is – No Strings Attached (NSA) sex.

      Ashley Madison is just a vehicle – all cheaters make the choice to cheat. It is sad that websites and places exist to foster that behavior.

      There is the retirement community in Florida that is known for STD transmission. Even my mom (who lives in Florida) knows of it. No website required! I looked up the name – it is The Villages – google it. All kinds of reports and articles on this place.

      • Doug

        I had to chuckle…An old friend of mine just bought a retirement home down at the Villages. I wonder if she knows about the STD issue?

        • Nearly Normal

          I doubt the STD issue is in the brochure.

          • Doug

            Yes, probably not the best selling point! 😉

    • Nearly Normal


      nice article as usual.

      In my opinion (i could be wrong) the issue of massive adultery (to summarize what you describe) comes from people trusting that their heart is always right. You know, the Disney mantra – follow your heart and it will always lead you right. We would try to say that the heart is not the source of baser desires, and would only feel noble and pure desires, but the heart really is fickle and fallible and prone to selfishness. The problem also might lie in our tendency to think that our impulses are from a nobler place than it is, which is why people often dress up our desires as noble (“But she’s my soul mate! I couldn’t help it!”)

      So I wonder what percentage of husband hunters are actually seeking to poach. Or are they just following their heart? I doubt that many of them get up in the morning and think, “Today I’m going to poach a husband!” (But what do I know? Maybe they do.) Instead I think they’re just following their feelings. They see a guy and think, “Wow, wouldn’t it be swell if he was mine?” And the coveting leads to bonding with the guy and sympathizing over his marital struggles, which turns into saying how you would be a better wife if you were his, which leads to inappropriate bonding, which leads to REALLY inappropriate bonding, if you know what i mean, wink wink nod nod.

      I don’t think I’m disagreeing, just kind of exploring the issue.

    • CatMandu

      Spot on, as usual, Sarah.

      I also live near one of the top three cities listed by Ashley-Madison. However, the OW’s city is not on the list. I’m sure she is already onto another A as we speak. She was involved with multiple men during her A with my H. Even though he would probably like to feel that he was her “fave.” LOL!!

      I am not surprised by the numbers being given by AM. Having been in criminal investigation I have seen despicable acts by women. I have probably seen more than most and have seen how men can be manipulated into committing crimes by the wag of a few boobs and booty. Now I have experienced first hand how sex can cause a man to completely lose their mind and morals. I have always viewed most people through a lens of suspicion. But didn’t see it in my own house. This is fairly typical for most of us.

      I hate the idea of something like Ashley-Madison but am not surprised. We have been on a downward spiral in terms of society. We don’t value marriage, families, and such. We are a “If it feels good, do it,” kind of society and consequences be damned. Children are being taught that they are the center of the universe with no boundaries. So I want your life, your husband, etc, I’ll just take it. It won’t end well.

      • Sarah P.

        Hi CatMandu,

        Thank you for chiming in about the fact that you have seen men being manipulated into committing crimes solely based on the look of a woman’s ‘double features’ as they bounce about.

        Quite honestly, I have seen the same thing. I know this sounds negative. However, I have NEVER in my life seen a truly heterosexual man turn down a (physically naked) and attractive woman who offers to play with the tail in his pants and it will be “their little aka big secret.”

        Here is what is depressing. When that government organization got sticky fingers and snagged my resume from the foreign service pile, they told me they had a process that if an attractive woman did certain things, there was no (happily married) heterosexual man who could resist. Maybe they were exaggerating.

        This is really terrible for wives.

        But, level with me… knowing what you know, do you believe that what that “organization” told me was true? The idea that no truly heterosexual man was able to say ‘no’ to a woman if an attractive woman did certain things?

        I hate to say it, but I have come to believe that very few heterosexual men will say no if they are targeted by an attractive woman day after day and if that woman is a skilled spouse poacher. What do you think?

        (Cue satire)

        It’s like this… most computers have some kind of over-ride process if someone hit the wrong button and the computer is doing something that will wipe important files forever. They can cancel it. Or they can retrieve those files through some process if accidentally deleted.

        But, I feel like the male brain does not contain an over-ride process for when his “lower brain” is in the process of blowing up his entire life. The lower brain cancels out the higher brain and high-jacks his body.

        “God, if you are listening, you released your product called “the human male” with a known software bug so large that it can destroy everything good in its path. And you haven’t fixed that bug yet and you should consider doing that for the future of your creation. God, is there a number for customer service where I can log this bug so your development team can get to work? Yeah, I did not think so, considering this bug has existed for thousands of years.”

        I guess God and Microsoft/Apple follow the same product release strategy.

        (End satire)

        CatMandu, quite seriously, what do you think?


    • Sarah P.

      Hi Nearly Normal,

      Actually you are right about the Disney Princess model and how it tells people to follow their heart. Note, the Disney Prince is always SINGLE and so is the Princess. They are also young — usually late teens and virginal. And so is the Prince. This is in the context in which they are able to believe they will live happily ever after. In fact, they actually have a chance of it because it was formed on a solid foundation. Both single, both first loves, both smitten with each other with the knowledge (coming from each side equally) that they are soulmates. And they actually are soulmates in the movies.

      Now let’s get real life women. I have been a woman my whole life and I am middle-aged, so maybe I have a little idea about women.

      I will say this to start off with. It’s a stereotype, but often stereotypes have a grain of truth. Here is the stereotype:

      (Cue satire)

      A couple of men who are strangers are sitting in a bar. A beautiful woman sits between them. They both like her and start to make gestures to one up the other. Pretty soon, they take it out to the alley and fist fight with the fury of a couple of male bucks locking horns. At one point one wins. They both brush themselves off and part ways. The next time they see each other in the bar, the guy who was beaten might give the other guy a casual high five and ask the victor if the beautiful woman was worth it. Then the victor will buy the other guy a beer, have a lot of guy talk, share a few laughs and one day they might actually watch the Super Bowl together because they became friends and they harbor no bad feelings. When people ask them how they met they will talk about that fight in the back alley 20 years ago and punch each other’s shoulders and take light hearted jabs at each other as they re-tell it. Then they will laugh. And if someone asked them if they harbored hard feelings and secret jealousy, they will look at that person as if they were speaking Martian. Why? Because it’s not within their context. They fought it out and all was forgotten the day they became friends over beer. When one dies, the other will get up and say a heart felt speech in front of the crowd. He might shed a tear. And he will mean every word he says. The end.

      I have heard these stories over and over again throughout my life from men that are just like the above.

      Then there are women. To put this in context, I have a small group of real friends and hundreds of acquaintances. My inner circle friends and I discuss “the rules.” We discuss the rules because these things are sadly not obvious to many.

      Many women have life long frenemies. I refuse to engage in such behavior. If someone wants to compete in the professional arena, I usually approach them and ask if I can help them achieve their goal of whatever it is. This almost never works. Several of them have looked me in the face and said, “My goal is to have your job and I want it now. There is only one of us so if you would step down I will let the boss know.” When that happens, I ask them why they want my job. They have no real reason except they want it. Then they tell me they will tell the boss I am giving my job to them. Actually that degree of candor actually happened once. Then that lady called the boss and said I was throwing the team under the bus by quitting and she just found out. To put this in context, this never happened in a corporation. It happened at a small potatoes business. The woman had no experience or any degree that would qualify her. When she called the boss I just rolled my eyes and said I would train her as my replacement. The company owner himself said to both of us she could not have my job because she was unqualified. So I told them to pick a replacement and I would train that person. So the woman picked her friend for the job and I trained her. I became a good friend to the lady I trained and told her how to be even better than I was. That woman lasted for two months. Even though the woman who wanted to get rid of me picked her friend, when she saw her friend did an awesome job, she called the company owner and told him that he had to fire her friend or she would leave and ruin the business. I know this because the company owner did not lie to the woman about what happened. He told her that her own friend was chasing her out and that he was choosing the other lady so she would not try to destroy the business. And that lady called me in tears and told me what happened. She was betrayed by her so-called friend and fired. Like a normal person she did not understand why her friend would get her hired just to get her fired. I said there is no explanation for “dysfunctional” and that I was extremely sorry. The company itself was small. There were less than 8 people. It was just a freelance and part time thing I took because the head manager begged for my help. It was something I did on the side. But, I did not have the time or inclination to work with a person who was gunning for a job that I did not even want. Eventually that woman quit because the company owner wouldn’t give her the title and job that she was not qualified for. She allegedly held all the business accounts hostage and he allegedly gave her the title in name only after that. To me it is REALLY pathetic that someone would spend their time taking others down in a tiny family run company.

      And that is just an example of what happens at work. I have never met a woman who just happened to innocently fall in love with married man. This is something men tell themselves. It is what they tell themselves because they provide ego feed. Their knight and shining armor comes out and they have to rescue the innocent damsel in distress who can’t help if a man has the biggest pay check she has ever seen. He is such a stud and he has to rescue her all while forgetting his wife and family need rescuing first. Remember the OW in my situation said many times she got pleasure on destroying me. She hoped I would kill myself so that they could keep my house. 30 different people told me because she bragged about.

      More on that later. Betrayed wives… what do you think of what I said?


      • Nearly Normal

        Sarah, you crack me up:

        “I have been a woman my whole life and I am middle-aged, so maybe I have a little idea about women.”

        Satire response:
        Your honor, I accept that Sarah P. is an expert witness in the area of being a woman.
        End Satire.

        But seriously, I think you are generally right, but I suspect that there are exceptions, as I think you’ll grant. But I don’t really know. My wife always claimed that she just innocently fell in love with the other man who was a close friend. But then again, there was at least one other man before that, so I tend to doubt that part of her story.

        But I am mainly speaking philosophically on these issues. I really am not that attached to the issues. My EMDR has been fantastically successful. I have a tremendous amount of detachment from past events, and already moving on with my wife in a much better way than before, including better communication and intimacy.

        A little more on the Disney syndrome: Do you think that poachers picture themselves as the princess who deserves whatever she takes, even if she has to break some rules?

      • Tired

        Sarah, I think you are very right. Men seem to be a bit naive in that area. When it comes to a woman flattering them they are completely blinded. Their egos get in the way. Women are definitely more manipulative and competitive with each other. Not all, but some. And it also depends on the age group. I think many become less so as they age, the younger ones are the worst, especially those who are in their thirties and are unattached. I have seen it many times too. A man is married and good looking (or even not much, but has status or money) and all of a sudden women find him attractive and interestingly, they will immediately start asking questions about his wife. Usually in a flirty way. Yet the man is completely naive as to the real motives, but you can see they enjoy the attention.

        The innocent damsel in distress takes great pains to make sure that is how she appears. She often has a terrible boyfriend, or can’t find one. Or has been treated badly by some man. How wonderful it would be if she could just meet someone like him (batting her eyelashes helplessly at your husband). And that’s all she has to do. The knight will rush in to her rescue.

        This story illustrates how women can manipulate a man without the man having any idea that he is being used. There is a girl I work with. She is very pretty but I don’t think she is a spouse poacher and she has a boyfriend whom she seems very happy with. However, one day there was a task she couldn’t be bothered doing and she commented to me that she might ‘go and make doe-eyes’ at two of our male colleagues in the hope they would do it for her. It worked!! It was kind of amusing to see how they fell for it hook, line and sinker, but then she wasn’t using it in a malicious way, and they felt great about rescuing a pretty girl. And they didn’t realise that all the women were sniggering at their gullibility. Men! Can’t live with them, can’t live without them.

        I am sorry about your experience. The woman you were up against was an evil person. I hope your ex suffers for the rest of his life for taking up with her.

        • Sarah P.

          Hi Tired,

          I just thought of something in the damsel in distress narrative and how many men stupidly fall for it. My husband made me spit out my coffee the other day when I was telling him to set boundaries.

          So here is what happened. He has worked in the same multi-state and now multi-national hospital system for his whole career. I found that job for him and got all of his interviews for him by writing his resume, his cover letters, coaching him on what to say during interviews, etc etc. I just remember that and it kind of made me mad. I did the same thing for my ex and he excelled because of it.

          Anyhow, in this large hospital system, there is a female and unmarried doctor from a country in SE Asia who has been working on my husband forever. She is probably about 7-10 years older than us or more. When she first came onto my husband, she was barrel-shaped, wore no makeup, and glasses. So, she lost weight, got a thin barrel shape, breast implants, dyed her hair blond, lost the glasses, and got nose job. (She looked freaky and has always looked evil. She is from the same country as the woman who poached my ex– and that lady was 10 years OLDER than my ex.) Note: I am not making fun of people’s body types. I am describing physical attributes. Very few women make it past menopause without a loss of their waistline to some extent and I believe every woman has her own beauty. However, if that woman is making a VICIOUS and concerted attempt to break up my family and refuses to hide it, well, describing her appearance and personality is fair game.

          We were out at a financial planning seminar for professionals. i was dressed to the nines in a red evening cocktail dress and had my hair and make-up done. Up comes Spouse Poacher X who is there with a female friend from the same country. My husband and I were standing face to face and talked. She came up to us and physically pushed me out of the way so she could get six inches from my husband and monopolize the conversation. I ket saying, “Excuse me…” in a polite and calm way. She ignored me and physically edged me away. I did this for 10 minutes until the presenter announced everyone needed to take their seats.

          The other day, I found out she was working in a new team that my husband also worked on, but he would not be working with her in person since this team was spread across an area. However, it would give her reasons to bug him via the text all day under the pretense of questions.

          I explained to him quite clearly that she was using the very same tactics that people witnessed my ex’s spouse poacher doing… only now I got to stand there and witness it happen to my husband. So, I reminded him of what I went through with my spouse poacher and how this woman has been making a concerted effort to get between us for some time.

          Here was his response…. “Spouse Poacher X? Oh, she has a horrible life. All of the man she dates use her for her money. Every man she knows victimizes her.”

          And I spit out my coffee.

          “Really?…” I said. “Really…? So you are telling me that the very aggressive spouse poacher X who physically pushed me and gets up in people’s faces all the time is being taken advantage of my her boyfriends who only see her as a paycheck. Really?”

          I know for a fact from someone else that Spouse Poacher X looks for men who make more money than her and takes advantage of THEM.

          So, to me it is clear that SPX is an extremely aggressive person. But, like my ex’s SPX, when she talks to my husband she whines and cries that no one will love her, sniff sniff, because all they want is her money.. life is so horrible, sniff sniff. And why can’t anyone see her beautiful heart…sniff sniff.”

          Well, it’s like this. Her heart is as beautiful as a scorpion’s or a black widow’s heart. Considering those animals don’t really have hearts, it’s no wonder that no one can see her heart. But really, I don’t want to insult scorpions or black widows by comparing them to her because she is far below them.

          If I seem mad, it is because I am. This woman has been trying for 15 years on and off. As I have said before, my husband hates being embarrassed and is 100% about impression management with coworkers and friends. I have told him he can continue blocking this woman and putting her in her place. Or one day I will hire an attorney and contact HR and launch a harassment suit against this woman. Along with my attorney, I will also contact the medical board. And everyone will know and it will be the most embarrassing thing he has ever experienced in his life.

          Some might ask why I don’t just divorce him. Well, the thing is, he has never encouraged her and I know that. And he keeps blocking her and she keeps trying and trying and trying.

          She is a separate entity than him and I am not willing to get a divorce. Period. I am willing to keep reminding him about who and what he is dealing with and asking courteously for him to set boundaries.

          However, if she ramps it up, I am going to be ready with an attorney. Do I believe he is having an affair? No. He is scared of this lady. And she is indeed scary.

          I have worked very hard to create a stable home for my children. I have given up my own corporate career to ensure they have the best childhood possible. I refuse to have someone come in and undo what I have worked hard to do and I will stand my ground. I know who and what this woman is due to her being exactly like my ex’s spouse poacher. This is someone truly evil and I will protect my family.

          As for my ex… and this is a warning to ALL male wayward spouses who read this blog. There is something you need to think about. This thing I need you to think about is this:

          People don’t have one set of core characteristics for one occasion and a different set for another occasion. For example, if a woman approaches you and says she would die without you– you are her Prince, her soulmate, and her knight in shining armor and she will just wither away and die if she cannot have you for herself, you are in trouble. Run way. She will help you get rid of your wife and family and she will use whatever means possible to get rid of them because she cannot help that she met her soulmate while he is married and has a family. She will use this as a justification to do all manner of harm– she may even make your wife suicidal, but that is okay because people “have to make sacrifices for love.” In fact, maybe it would be best if the wicked witch wife were out of the picture– so pushing her off a 20-story building won’t be so bad. “Love requires sacrifices.”

          Let’s say you fall for it like my ex did. He knew she hoped I would be suicidal so that they could take my house already and live happily ever after. Once I was gone, well, it would be as if I never even existed at all. The universe just blessed them with this awesome house for no reason. “Sarah who? I don’t think there was anyone called Sarah who existed. In fact, her name was definitely not the first name and the title and she definitely did not use her own funds for the lion’s share of the downpayment.”

          No, they were just walking through (not) Kansas and *poof* this great house appeared out of nowhere. Well, it would be wrong not to live in this house because there was never a Sarah.

          Luckily, God ensured that I was not able to complete a second suicide attempt. And that is a story I have never told the blog.

          So back to my ex… my ex was dumb enough to assume that this woman loved him so MUCH and would die without him that her love for him justified any and every action. She was NOT an evil person. Oh no. It’s just that Sarah was in the way. And so he had to make the most vicious effort to destroy Sarah. But, other than that, Spouse Poacher was just an innocent girl-next-door type who fell in love.

          Well, my ex fell for that and aided and abetted her crime of stealing my former life and my former possessions and almost succeeded in removing me from the planet.

          But that was okay because Sarah was in the way of true love and the end justified the means.

          So, he was dumb enough to eventually marry her (when I refused to come back after a couple of lame and half-hearted attempts he made to test the waters.)

          And he really believed she was a really kind person to the core. He never realized that truly kind people have this filter that blocks out all married/engaged/taken people (if the kind person is single). And after the kind person marries, they basically have a mental block where they choose not to see any man that they meet as a potential partner and they don’t even flirt because it’s kinda disrespectful to their marriage to to themselves as well.

          And so can anyone guess what happened to my ex? Oh yes, they married. Oh yes, they have a couple of children. But here is what happened to my ex. My ex is gone. People who have seen them at dinner parties call me and talk about the husk of a person who vaguely resembled my ex that was was there and that person was a zombie. That person had dead eyes. That person forced a smile on cue. In fact, that person had her arm and nails attached to his arm at all times and she directed all conversation and led him around on his arm leash. Some people who are Christians have told me I should have compassion for him because his soul was destroyed.

          So, in case I need to state the message clearly, it goes like this: if a woman is willing to do heinous things to your family in the name of love, it is because she is a heinous person using the excuse of “true love” to justify her actions. But really, she is a heinous person. Everything that she does to get rid of her family– all of her manipulation tactics and viciousness… all of it will one day be turned on YOU. Why?
          Because that is who she IS. She is telling you straight up who she is when she does NOT get her way. One day she will NOT get her way and she will do all of those same things to YOU. And you will have to live with this person day in and day out. You either obey her and give her her way all the time, or she destroys you bit by bit each time she does not get her way. And this is what happened to my ex.

          Once upon a time, before she came along, my ex was a person who was always smiling and jovial. He had many hobbies and a certain joie de vivre. He and I had all the same hobbies and got along great. Our home was filled with laughter and epic dinner parties where everyone turned off their phones because there was so much fun and liveliness and camaraderie to be had where they were in that moment. (That is rare indeed and becomes more rare as the years go by.) He and I had so much fun together before she came along. He was as adventurous, well-traveled, and athletic and I was, but then we were also both writers and photographers, avid-readers, entertainers, and corporate business people. People had fun at our house. We did not have a table that fit 50, but if 50 people showed up, we brought out all kinds of chairs and set everything up buffet style.

          So, she took that from me. But, I found someone who really liked me two months after I was forced out of my home and that same person told me he wanted to marry me only 6 weeks after we met because he loved everything about who I was and wanted more of what I had to offer. We eloped a year later almost to the day we met. And we have kids. And I brought the person I was into my current marriage. And my kids are proud when mom shows up at school to help because all the other kids think their mom is the coolest and funniest mom in school.

          Off went my ex with his exuberant personality and his joie de vivre. He married her and discovered that she wants what she wants all the time and when she does not get it, she destroys the person who refuses to give her her way. And she chips away at that person until they are soulless and basically a dead man walking.

          So… if any of you out there have wayward spouses who are not convinced, copy and paste this comment into a Word document and then send it to your spouse. Give your wayward spouse a glimpse of his or her future with that ruthless person who is only acting ruthless in the name of “true love.”



          PS- After all that yuckiness, let’s have a cheerful story about sparrows. So, we have a front porch that is covered and has a high, sloping ceiling. The covered porch is about 10 feet by 20 feet. A mommy and daddy sparrow figured out how to build a nest high up on the slope where the brick chimney attaches to the covered porch ceiling. During the day, each bird perches on my porch lights. There are two lights so each bird sits on an antique style light and cleans itself and preens its wings and acts too adorable for words. It’s like a living Norman Rockwell scene. And I have giant windows that face that porch and I watch these two adorable mom and dad sparrows build their nest, sit on the lights together, and do all their adorable things all day. I told my husband and kids that if sparrows want to live on the porch, that’s great. Sparrows are a symbol of God and birds are monogamous, so I look at them as a blessing to my house. They are welcome to live on my porch, have their family there, and build more nests if they want.

          Finally, they are symbols of good things:

          ► Sparrows are mentioned in the Holy Bible. It states that God Almighty loves even the most insignificant of His creatures (sparrow), and not even one sparrow falls down to the ground without His permission. So, human beings are more important than sparrows, and He values His creation dearly.

          ► It was a sacred bird to Aphrodite, Greek Goddess of Love. According to her, sparrows symbolized true love and spiritual connection.

          ► In Chinese culture, a sparrow is considered to be auspicious. It is a symbol of spring and happiness. If a sparrow nests in a Chinese family’s house, they will never the disturb the bird because it is thought to have brought in good luck to the family.

          ► It symbolizes companionship, happiness, hope. It also denotes fertility and rejuvenation of the spirit.

          Hooray for sparrows!!

          • Tired

            Sarah, this woman does sound like a spouse poacher. And she sounds awful. But in the end, it will always be up your husband. That is the same for all of us. In the end, we can’t control other people’s behaviour. They either have integrity, or they don’t.

          • Tired

            Sarah, this spouse poacher sounds gross. Is she one of these over made-up older women who go around flirting with men as though they are still 20? It is annoying that your husband thinks she is just a woman to be pitied, so unlucky in love. Men can be so naive when it comes to a woman with a sob story! My husband’s OW couldn’t find anyone ‘normal.’ All her ex boyfriends had something wrong with them. They were substance abusers, or treated her badly, or were too loud during sex. She just wanted someone ‘normal.’ She actually boasted about this at work in front of my husband. Funny she thought the ‘normal’ one was the one with a wife!! I’m thinking that these old boyfriends saw something wrong with HER, and that’s why she hates them. They probably got out of there, quick smart.

            You are a mind reader I think Sarah! I had a similar conversation with my husband about the other woman. He too was naive about her. Poor innocent girl who he hurt. Innocent, my ass. I said to him, now this woman who encouraged you to make fake social media accounts to deceive another woman and who was willing to destroy someone else to get what she wanted…do you really think she is a good person? Do you really think you could have trusted her? Don’t you think that if she would do these things she just might do these kinds of things in her relationships? Watching the penny drop was very amusing. It is so funny the way it has played out actually exposed her…getting pregnant to someone else so quickly. And she is so proud of it, she doesn’t realise what everyone else is saying about her now. Not that she cares. She has no shame.

            I doubt your husband would be stupid enough to fall for it with this woman. She sounds gross. But then you never know. The OW in our lives was not pretty. In fact she was very funny looking. It is funny to note that the selfies she sent my husband did not look anything like her. She had completely changed the shape of her face, lol. What is the point of doing this? Everyone can see it’s photoshop!! Guess she thought he would have forgotten what she looked like and wanted to manipulate his memory.

            • Sarah P

              Hi Tired,

              (Cue Sarcasm and Satire. Sardonicism. Buwhahahha.)

              That is such a classic story about the spouse poacher playing the victim card and talking about her sex life to everyone in the office. I love the too loud during sex comment. That is EPIC. It should go down as the thing of legend. I can picture her sitting at work in her nightclub wear, having 5 pounds of make-up on her face, with a kleenex box beside her. Cue the fake tears and fake sniffles so that 5 pound make-up does not run off face. She monologues, “Poor me, I am so skilled at (name the sex acts) that I cannot find someone normal who can handle it without being loud about it. My lovers are so loud that they wake up everyone within 20 city blocks! They even make noises outside the spectrum of human hearing and cause all dogs within a 30-mile radius to howl like banshees on judgement day for hours on end. Then everyone mistakes my apartment for a clandestine escort service and the police and SWAT team arrive at 4am and break down the doors!! And I am too nice to be considered an escort service. If I could find a normal man, then the SWAT teams wouldn’t break down my door at 4am. I need a normal, MARRIED man just like you (who is so allegedly bored with sex that he doesn’t howl) and if I do NOT get a normal, MARRIED man like you, I am going to have to climb onto the short filing cabinet over there and throw myself off of it. When I chip my nails, you will be sorry. I will blame you (married man) if the SWAT teams keep breaking down my door!! I will send you and your wife the bill for the broken doors from now on. That will teach you for having a wife.” Then she dramatically flips a head full of hair extensions and stomps off in her 10 inch heels. All the other professionals in the office are pinching themselves and wondering if they just hallucinated it all. Because it would be so much LESS awkward if it was merely a mass, group hallucination induced by the overhead fluorescent lighting.

              (End Sardonicism) I only pull out sardonicism for really special types of people. Tired, your OW qualifies as one of those special people. Congratulations. 🙂

              Okay, here is a real, honest to God story told without trying to be sarcastic. This story is in addition to the main spouse poacher who I will discuss at length soon. But, first, we need to discuss Dr. Breast Implants.

              So, my husband had a MARRIED female colleague. She is/was probably 20 years older than us. She got bariatric surgery and lost enormous amounts of weight. Then she got a full body lift, breast lift with huge implants, and a tummy tuck and facelift. (Her husband had worked two jobs to put her through medical school late in life.) Even though she was allegedly happily married, she wanted to get the porn-star make-over around the age of 60. That is cool. I am all for it. Just please do it for YOUR husband and don’t make it obvious that you are doing it to poach another younger married man while your married husband took you out of the gutter and made sure you met your late in life career goals, paid for your weight loss surgery, and paid for your 60k in cosmetic surgery. Use the makeover to spice up your life with YOUR OWN husband and not someone else’s. Or get divorced and find a single man 20 years younger. Whatever you need to do to look great, I am all for it. Just don’t target my husband. That’s all I ask. I support women who want to do whatever they need to feel good about themselves even if it includes cosmetic surgery. (Short of body dysmorphic disorder. No surgeon with any ethics should have touched the woman who wanted to look like her cat. Unethical, especially since she was beautiful BEFORE the cat makeover. Now I just feel sorry for her. And I mean that very sincerely.). Moving on. So, 60-year-old doctor was sitting at work one day and announced to my husband and the nurses that he needed to inspect her breasts that very second. He said “no.” He said to call her plastic surgeon. She said, “no.” She said it was an EMERGENCY and possibly even a life and death situation if my husband did not inspect her breasts. He still said, “no.” and started arranging for an ambulance. She said she was too scared and embarrassed to ride in the ambulance and all he needed to do was take a quick peek. And she would not stop and went on for 20 minutes in front of about 15 other coworkers. So two female nurses felt sorry (and wanted to shut her up) and volunteered to help my husband take a peek. (Also, female doctor did not think the other female doctor on duty was qualified– she said so. After all, us women know absolutely NOTHING about women’s bodies. LOL.) And so the nurses got ready and called my husband to take a peek. He told me she looked like a female Frankenstein under her shirt because she had an enormous T-scar– the kind they use during autopsies on her stomach. (She was basically split in half from upper groin to sternum.) Then she had more enormous scars on her breasts. He changed the cotton/gauze and told her to call her surgeon. He called me on the way home from work completely embarrassed and grossed out. And there was technically nothing wrong with her either. He had no idea what she was talking about but changed the gauze in front of two nurses as witnesses and said he would no longer participate and walked out. He told her he needed to call her surgeon and that was the bottom line. When I told him he had just been ‘conned’ he did not understand why a married woman almost old enough to be his mom would do that. To this day he does not understand he was conned. He knows how her husband supported her for a grueling 15 years so she could realize her entire undergrad through med school after 40. My husband cannot fathom that she might very intentionally use her own husband, just to ditch him after that. My husband said that would make her an evil human being and he cannot fathom why someone would be ‘that evil.’ One detail I forgot. After the scars healed, she started taking tropical beach vacations with herself and her single son from a different marriage who had a different father. She ensured her husband did NOT come along.

              On a serious note all female readers, you tell me….

              Am I wrong? Did my husband get ‘conned’ or was it just an innocent mistake anyone could have made? Female readers… weigh in here… was my husband ‘conned’ or was this lady just making an innocent mistake?

              Inquiring minds want to know. And male readers weigh in too- if you want.

              But that was not even the spouse poacher who has been trying on and off for about 12 years… Here is her story:

              This spouse poacher is another (female) doctor from a SE Asian country. She is from the exact same country of the woman who poached by fiance. (And by the way, that woman who poached my fiance was no catch. But, she was scary as scary gets. My best friend saw her photo and my best friend said it looked like a halloween mask because the woman truly looks mean and scary. No joke.)

              So onto my husband. There has been this female doctor from SE Asia who is probably 5-7 years older than us. She has always had a different live-in boyfriend, but she has also been working on my H for about 12 years now. I am actually grateful that the first spouse poacher that took my fiance let me know “all the enemy’s tricks.” What I have learned is that this particular culture sees any high status man as there for the poaching.

              That is, if the woman from this country is not married, she sees any high status man as fair game, even if he is married with kids.

              Before people accuse me of cultural bias, I worked with these women in high tech. They told me themselves that in their culture if they are single or even living with someone but not married, no man is off-limits. I heard it from the horse’s mouth many times.

              What was most interesting was that these women spoke about it as if it was as normal as brushing your teeth in the morning. They could not comprehend why I saw it is wrong. TRULY.

              They laughed at me because I was not as worldly as they were in terms of nothing was off-limits. They told me only truly unhappy husbands cheated and they were saving these husbands from a fate worse than death- an allegedly unhappy marriage.

              Additionally, one of the things I had to do as part of my psychology degree was be aware of all of the different cultural attributes of people around the world so that I could work with them in THEIR context. It had nothing to do with race or skin color– just culture. I had to write various papers and take various texts to show that I knew the difference between all these cultures and their cultural norms and why they did what. If psychology programs recognize everyone has different cultural norms, this has nothing to do with race. Just saying. A person of any skin color could be adopted into and raised in a culture and develop a cultural norm regardless of their so-called “race.” Needed to make that clear. And the field of psychology sees things the same way.

              But, back to spouse poacher who comes from a culture who thinks any high status man is fair game. (The same culture as the woman who effectively poached my ex and destroyed him from the inside out.)

              When spouse poacher #2 first appeared in my current husband’s workplace, she wore no make-up, glasses, and qualified as obese. She met my husband and over a period of a couple of years lost weight, got contacts, got breast implants and nose surgery, and dyed her hair blond and started wearing 7 inch heels and too much make-up. That is also when she became aggressive. My husband left that workplace but worked in the same large, multi-state hospital system.

              The last time I saw her was when we were at an event that doctors who were employed in that system were invited to. She was there with a female friend by happenstance. Luckily, I was dressed to the nines (which is not how I dress on a daily basis.)

              That was when my husband and I were talking face to face, she saw him, and physically pushed me out of the way and would not let me get back into the conversation until the announcer told everyone to take their seats. Each time I said, “excuse me” and tried to edge in, she PHYSICALLY kept pushing me out. This went on for 10 minutes straight– her pushing me out physically.

              After the announcer started speaking, we realized it was a sales pitch and left.

              I let me H know that she gets only one push and she used it several times during that 10 minute period of time.

              You see, I know this game. I have never seen my husband respond to this lady in a way that is encouraging. I have seen him freeze and look like a deer in the headlights.

              This woman has a revolving door of live-in boyfriends and complains constantly about how they use her for her money and status as a family practice MD. Hint. These MDs don’t make much money. I am married to one. Most of our income came from my time in corporate high tech. High tech people make more. Period. The houses we lived in came from my income and/or my retirement. Just saying…

              Anyhow, I know this game. And here is the scoop. In almost marriage #1, I did not have kids. And I accepted the financial setback as a wash. (I had sold all my non 401k stocks for a brand new house nearly next door to the tech corridor in our city. COVETED location.) I did not get that money back and I let it go when the house sold. I had to scramble to work harder and try to make up for the loss.

              Moving on. Now I have two kids. Both have particular needs that require to be met and require stability. One has been suicidal. Any kind of family disruption would mess with my kids.

              NO ONE in their right mind gets between a mother bear and her offspring.

              When it came to me and there were no kids, meh.

              I was pissed and crushed and moved on.

              But, I did not attempt to fight. I walked away immediately and moved on. Went no contact immediately and all communication went through my attorney. I got to “meh” pretty quickly because I realized I had to. But getting to meh had to do with my former life.

              I have never gotten to ‘meh’ in terms of living in fear that the shoe may one day drop again. I am not perfect.

              I am imperfect. Completely and totally.

              But now I have kids. And both of them need an intact family. (I am not making this as an excuse, if you knew all the details, you would understand why. Just take my word for it because it is all too personal to get into. Several different therapists agree. Yes, people who have psychology degrees send their kids to OTHER therapists just like doctors send their kids to OTHER doctors.)

              Again, I have kids. This experience turned me into a momma bear. The experience of a mom is not one based on logic. Someone aggresses your children or affects their wellbeing and some extremely irrational and primal instincts take over. In real life, hikers who are smart wear loud bells when hiking in the back country during the times of year baby bears are born. This warns mommy bear to leave so that no one gets hurt. But what so I know. I was only born in the most sparsely populated and mountainous state in the United States where bears are a daily part of life along with angry moose and other wild-life. Take it from me, you do not want to meet a moose when it woke up on the wrong side of its moose bed. At that point, you may look for a mother bear with whom to start an altercation. Moose are not nice like Bullwinkle. They are more like the Terminator. You do not want to be anywhere near them. They will pursue you forever, even if they have to get in a time machine to pursue you into the past.

              Back to spouse poachers.

              I refuse to be set back financially a second time — especially at this time in my life. I refuse it.

              Let us say that one day my husband is dumb enough to sleep with this absolutely insane lady who physically pushes wives out of the way (stranger things have happened) and is so stupid that he thinks he might try to bring this person near our family, they will be surprised.

              This person is NOT a stable person. Take my word for it. This person is a bunny boiler.

              If it happened, I would assemble a team of people who are the equivalent of nuclear weapons. If they were not available, I would assemble a team of angry moose with time machines.

              Either way, it would NOT look good.

              HR will get involved. The state medical board will get involved. Maybe I will call Dateline and ask them to investigate the national problem we have of medical professionals who mistake the workplace as one giant affair website– and how their behavior inadvertently affects patients everyday and often it is deadly. There are many news stories about this on local levels.

              Would I do that because I am mean?

              Goodness no.

              I just refuse to be victimized one more time.

              What most people do not realize is that they do not have to be a partner in their own victimization.

              I would use every legal means possible to keep this scary person away from my kids and away from my assets.

              In fact, I would probably lock her in a cage with moose (and no weapons) just to see who would win. (Satire).

              My husband? Well, he is another story. If he wants to leave, he can leave me with ALL assets AND sign away his parental rights. Then he can go. But I refuse to give up assets and/or bring someone insane around my kids.

              I would fight on behalf of my children and on behalf of what is mine and has been hard-earned by me over the course of many years.

              If anyone did not read SuzySunshine’s posts, she sets the new gold standard in how to deal with these spouse poachers at work when a wife has children.

              Also, TFW knows about post-nups and those are another MUST have in my opinion, if people want to salvage the marriage or just save themselves and their children’s future.

              No one has to help their spouse and the affair partner victimize them.

              They can hire a legal team and use every legal avenue possible to fight back and to fight hard.

              I liked how SuzySunshine said the OW may have had a physical relationship, but she does not get to destroy Suzy’s life and family. That is the right attitude.

              Note: do not have physical relations with such a husband until you have gone to the doctor with him and both of you have full STD panels. Affairs are ugly because they are physically deadly in many cases. If they are not deadly, they are emotionally deadly and influence all the generations to come.

              When someone has children it is not about saying, “Oh well, I guess she can have him” and walking away peacefully.

              A woman must fight on behalf of her children if she has them. She must fight for assets. Because if she is encountering a true spouse poacher, the spouse poacher will not stop until she gets the big house, all the cars, and all the assets. The spouse poacher will be happy if the wife and kids walk away and quietly kill themselves. It means more for her. I cannot reinforce enough the level of viciousness that exists in the mind of a true spouse poacher.

              Big caveat: spouse poachers are different than the ‘no strings attached affair partner,’ but given enough time, I have found out that the no-strings-attached thing turns into a BIG strings attached thing.

              Women’s bodies physically bond to a man if they have had intercourse. This is biological and NOT logical. Women who think they can have NSA sex for any period of time are fooling themselves.

              Here is the ultimate gross out and this affects all of us– men and women.

              Okay guys and gals, if you just ate dinner, you are going to hurl. So brace yourself.

              A study claimed women retained the DNA of every man they have ever had sex with:


              Now, I have read more about this. It appears to be true and not true. It appears to be linked to micro-chimerism, which is a freaky thing on its own, especially for the amateur youtube scientists who are doing basement experiments using this principle. I have seen some of the videos and unless they are total hoaxes, humanity is about to see some very scary and unethical things happen and witness the results of those things. Truly frightening and I have a strong stomach. Forget the horror movies… what is in store in real life is worse.

              I don’t know if it is true if women retain the DNA of their partners. All I know is when I was single, to say my relationships moved slower than glaciers would be an understatement. I just could not bring myself to offer my body to another human being unless I knew that person for a really long time and the relationship was completely monogamous. As a result of my bad experience with my ex, I told my husband relations were off the table with whomever I dated until the wedding night. No, this was not my way to get a man to marry me at lightening speed, although he proposed 5 weeks after we met and I said NO. I dated him for a year and then decided we could get married. So we eloped. He is still married to me and claims he will be forever. He claims he was looking for me the whole time he was single. He was willing to wait for me for as long as I needed and that was good for both of us. It forced us to discuss every issue under the sun in terms of future goals, life plans, how many kids we wanted. We both got to see each other’s strong points and weak points, and the strong points far outweighed the weak. However, there was one area where he misled me and I am still pissed about that. Truth be told though, even he did not know the future, so I can only half blame him. He had been married for a very short time in school and had been divorced for years with no kids. He knew his mom had issues with that short-lived marriage, but he figured his mom would be okay with me because of my very NON-aggressive personality. His first wife was aggressive.

              While what I write is very bold, if any of you were to sit down in front of me for coffee, you would meet someone who never raises her voice, who is calm, who listens a lot, is grounded, speaks very diplomatically, and has impeccable manners.

              The writer me and the me in real life are two different people indeed. I don’t like aggression. I don’t do aggression. I do peacemaking, validation, and trying to see the other person’s side.

              But, the writer me has to come up with a topic and figure out what to say when I am not getting any feedback in real time to see if that is the message a person needs that day. But, worst of all, no one can see my tone, my body language, or any of that stuff.

              The writer me is very different than the me in real life. I am writing in hopes of helping people understand their situations, giving them courage, and hopefully writing about infidelity that can make people laugh instead of cry. Any time I say something outrageous, it is satirical. It is meant to make people laugh at a very un-funny topic.

              Anyone else have any off-the-wall spouse poacher stories? Or insane things the OW said?

              And was my H conned by Dr. Breast Implants or did Dr. Breast Implants just have an ‘owie’ and need a new band-aid?


            • Tired

              Hilarious as usual Sarah! Yes, she was a bit like that. It is funny the comments about how she was ‘loud’ during sex were said just before, or perhaps about the same time as the invitations to bring me to meet her were happening. I’m not a fool. She was doing it to make herself sound exciting. How wild would it be to have sex with her? I’m sure that is the idea she was trying to plant in his mind. Yet he related all this to me, completely oblivious. I picked up on it right away. She even said she can’t go to a hotel because of the noise
              (what she really probably was implying was that ‘perhaps your house would be better.’). Probably thought a ‘bored’ married man would be easy pickings.

              The thing is that I told my husband that it was inappropriate and that she was doing it to make herself sound exciting. Do you think he listened?! Ya think? So absolutely I believe that your husband was conned. This woman you speak of is absolutely trying it on. I hope he sees that. And good on him for having a chaperone. But from what you’ve said, she sounds really unattractive. However, so was ours. But she was younger than me. And with men it is more about how the OW makes them feel than how they look. The men are roped in by being admired.

              Physically pushing you out of the way? Don’t think I could put up with that one. What did your husband do? It is bad enough to me that the spouse poacher monopolised the conversation and was rude to me behind his back, and draping herself all over him right in front of me. And him looking all naive. When I brought it up, he dismissed it as though I was just jealous. Makes my blood boil. Especially in view of what happened later. Imagine if I had a male colleague who did that! Doubt he would like it.

              I agree that where children are involved it is so much worse. We would do anything to protect our children. And broken marriages are horrible for the children. I remember once finding a group of kittens huddled in the garage. I was about to pick one up when I saw mother cat glowering at me through the fence. A look that would kill. I backed off immediately.

              It seems you’re really worried about spouse poachers Sarah. Do you have any reason to think your husband would do anything, or are you just influenced by your past? Don’t ruin the present by worrying about the future. Having said that, it is good to educate him. In my experience though men don’t listen until they learn the hard way. I’m sure you will be fine. You have kids and there is a lot more at stake. My husband stayed with me and we don’t even have any.

            • Sarah P

              Hi Tired,

              LOL. Yes, I am very sincerely and truly worried about spouse poachers. I am not being a sarcastic. I could write a 100,000 word book on every spouse poacher who did not bother to hide the idea that she was after my H.

              The problem with my H is that he is so introverted and scared that he has developed a “work face” where he is super jolly and affable and goes out of his way for patients. He pretends to be interested in every patient story etc. Most docs there have adopted this personality because they get their pay docked if they do not keep up a certain level of patient scores. He is even more scared of the nurses. One wrong look and all of them gang up on another doctor, nurse, admin assistant, PA, or anything else and take that person down. So he survives by smiling and laughing at everything and saying nothing except for “that’s great” and “that’s so nice” and “good for you.” Then he comes home and collapses and lays down on the bed because of his stress level. He just got a job where half of the time he works from home as an auditor of medical records. He took a huge pay drop but I told him he will just do bare bones budget for his sanity. So half the time he works at home, sits outside, and looks at the very peaceful home and yard (and view) that I have created so that when he is home our house feels like a sanctuary. And I never raise my voice. Ever. I have never called anyone a name, not even on a fight. I point out a concrete action and state how it affects me. But I don’t raise my voice, or call him any kind of mean thing. So that has been a positive step having him home.

              I have realized what I need to do is see an attorney who specializes in family trusts and family corporations. There are ways to lock things up and throw away the key (to a certain extent). I have found that real spouse poachers leave when they realize they cannot access the goodies OR the wife is such a force to reckon with, they go onto easier pickings.

              But, nice guys like your husband are going to look like diseased deer in a heard of deer and the spouse poacher is a wolf, looking for the weakest. Nice men generally don’t stand up. They feel too awkward.

              Then there is my oldest son who is now a teen. He is “the watcher.” He looks for guys who allegedly check me out when he and I are on errands. He stares them down and raises his fists. He is 6 feet tall. LOL. And he says he has worse plans for any female who tried to break up the family. He sees I am not a problem. I do not notice if guys notice me and don’t care. But he sees it and sees the lookers are the problem and I keep my head down and go about my business. After I got married, I intentionally put myself in a frame of mind that I was married. That means I don’t look for cute guys. (I never looked for cute guys even when I was someone’s girlfriend. When I am seeing someone, I don’t view men as potential partners, just people.) Even when I was single, I am not a flirt. I never did the “doe eye” thing that you mentioned your coworker did. My ex told me that at work I was the only woman who created a very a-sexual vibe. I was ALL business and he couldn’t even see a whiff of flirtation. And he was shocked because he saw the me and work and the me with him. Two completely different people. He was shocked the me with him never leaked into my work personality. If I did not like a task, I would ask a female colleague if she wanted to trade tasks. Or I would just do the task. I wanted men to see me as “one of the guys” while at work and I acted like a male professional and dressed like one as well. Pantsuits, hair in a bun, very few smiles, and all business. It was not an act. It’s just that I have a code of behavior that I have developed in work environments. And then I have a super-fun side that comes out among friends. And coworkers would be so startled when they saw the after-hours me versus the work me. I was not two different people. I just relied on different facets of my personality that were appropriate to each situation. I am probably the only woman anyone will ever meet who does not flirt with husbands. I tell funny jokes, but I don’t flirt. When I am talking to a couple, I direct my shoulders to face toward the wife and direct 80% of the conversation to her. When I talk to the husband, I am nice and will say funny things, but there is no eye-batting or hair-flipping or giggling. I am not that person and never have been. I am just not a flirt for whatever reason and I think it’s because I know how insincere it is. I see women do it and then they make fun of the way the guy reacts after the guy walks off. I don’t so insincerity.

              But, back to spouse poachers, my H is a target because he is the proverbial nice guy who is afraid of getting his pay docked. His coworkers who don’t play the game, get their pay docked. And these are fantastic doctors. They are the doctors I see when I am sick. I am there to see a doctor who is an expert. He does not have to kiss my butt. I want him to be direct and take care of my health. I don’t expect a song and dance. But that is what the place my husband works for wants. They want the doctors to do a song and dance even if it means not so good medical care. Isn’t that MESSED UP??????

              Ok, enough venting. So, my husband has been a target because of his jovial personality that is driven by fear of getting his pay docked. He treats 80-year-old men and 90-year-old women the same way he treats everyone. But, spouse poachers think maybe they are special because he is jovial. And he is always shocked when they misinterpret it because he treats everyone this way.

              So is that real that the spouse poacher draped herself on your husband in front of you?

              The current spouse poacher who has to work with my H from time to time will not see the normally polite me if she ever attempts to physically push me again and keeps doing it to ensure I can’t speak to my own husband. I think that is a really aggressive thing to do to push a wife out of the way. What do you think?


            • Sarah P

              Here is another quick story about a married female doctor from the same country. Unfortunately I have a rare genetic disease that was finally diagnosed about 8 years ago. This doctor oversees an area where I need to go to get IV medication when I am in the middle of an attack. She likes to text my husband for any fake reason. One day she sent him a text and said, “I feel so bad that I can’t spent time with you at work. I was looking through Sarah’s medical record and I was hoping you and I could meet together to talk about Sarah after work…maybe over dinner.” My husband showed me the text and told me I could handle it. I texted her back and said: “This is Sarah. As you know, I told you that you discuss my medical management with me, not my husband. Speaking to someone I have not authorized to be part of my treatment is a HIPPA violation. If you have any questions about my medical care, please feel free to call me or email me at anytime. Thank you for understanding.”

              Yeah, she did not EVER text my husband about me again. So, once again… was I over-reacting or was I politely asserting my rights as a patient?


              PS- I deal with these kinds of things a lot. And my patience is wearing thin. No, my husband is not the cutest doctor on the staff, but he is the one so afraid of offending people that he seems approached and jovial. And he has terrible boundaries. Some 60-year-old married doctor called him the other day at home while we were working side by side. She had questions about the retirement plan and wanted to know how we were investing. (I have told them he can talk to his friends all he wants about investing or any potential future business partners, but please don’t talk to coworkers he hardly knows and who are not even friends about investing.

              It wears thin for me especially since I am the investment guru in the family. My last job was working with the board of directors for a well-known global financial company. Even though I was a very lowly project manager working on special financial projects for them, I had to learn finance. Otherwise, I would have been eaten alive. I wish my H would stop spouting stuff he doe snot understand at work because that just makes him a target. I have explained that.

            • Sarah P

              Does not. Not “doe snot.” Although I am sure “doe snot” could be a useful phrase in some context. I just don’t know where.

    • Sarah P.

      I think this song explains the issue “at large.”

      • Sarah P.

        PS- That was a joke.

    • Rose

      Yep, all 3 of H’s EAs were poachers. The first was a barmaid, poor single mom who just stole his little heart. Just his type. Except she had a BF ready to extort money from unsuspecting, married, white knights. His second EA was an alcoholic whose father and BFs all abused her, poor thing. Just his type. He was going to save her, and she was going to snag him. His third EA was his first cousin. I read the emails. She literally told him in pornographic, obscene terms what she was going to do to him as soon as he left me for her. This he hid from me for months until I found it, and the poor dear said she was coming on to him and that he was just playing along. Uh huh. That was 2 years ago and she is still in our lives because of family (no direct contact with him as I have that locked down). Yeah, I know from poachers!

    • TryingHard

      LOL I love the advertisement for The Villages. I have friends who own there. BLECK!! God save me from Florida anywhere in Florida. That said there’s plenty of retirement villages in FL and I hardly think The Villages is unique in the fact that there’s crazy stuff going on. I do know once your friends at those places find out you will fool around, especially as a woman, they will shun you big time! I have a friend who did just that at a similar place in FL. She started playing a little too much golf with one of the pros. And she would travel to FL without her husband. So when all the wives found out they completely shut her out. It was hilarious. They actually ended up having to sell their house there. I never found out if her husband knew or not.

      I also know of another man who he and his wife owned a very nice home in the swanky part of Naples, FL. He’d had many affairs, was a WWII war hero and a successful businessman. She was a doll putting up with his BS but it’s what women did back in the day right? Anyway he was in his 80’s and he got arrested propositioning a prostitute!! Of course he didn’t know she was a prostitute and thought this young woman was interested in his saggy old ass! So I feel pretty certain this stuff happens a lot in FL.

      • Tired

        Nearly Normal, I think poachers DO indeed picture themselves as entitled princesses who can just have anything they want….our other woman even called herself ‘(Insertname) Princess’ on her social media account!! As for rules, well rules just don’t apply to princesses…rules are for the peasantry (such as betrayed spouses).

        • Nearly Normal

          I think so, too, Tired. What gets me is that there is a sense of entitlement, as if they are completely innocent in every way they break rules and hearts and lives. The heart is more important than anything else, even if that means selfishly destroying someone.

          • Tired

            Nearly Normal, I saw not even a glimmer of shame from that woman. She just didn’t care. She was completely amoral. When I think of her so happy and laughing as she was trying to destroy my life it makes my blood boil. And then to move on to another man so quickly…well my husband wasn’t really that special was he? Poachers are evil.

            • Sarah P


              True spouse poachers have NO shame. They are so invested in seeing themselves as princesses and the world as the peasantry who is supposed to step aside when she spots a Prince. It does not matter if the Prince is married. If he is married, she will make up a story in her mind about how the wicked witch kidnapped the Prince, forced him into marriage, and then locked him a tower. The spouse poacher is there to free the married Prince because they are each other’s “true love.”

              She will break every rule of morality and common decency to make it happen. When people point out she is neither moral nor decent, well, those are just peasants and they don’t understand true love.

              Sometimes women like this get married to a legitimately single man. When that happens, the horror show starts. They make terrible wives and moms, even if they found a single man. Everyone knows a woman who is well-meaning but maybe not be the best mom.

              These women are not that. They are truly terrible people with viewpoints that are so skewed, their children either turn out to be just like them, or spend a life medicated for depression and in and out of therapy. Not the child’s fault by the way– the child who turns out being depressed.

              On the other hand, the child who turns out just like the parent is just as dangerous. They cannot blame family of origin for their actions. All adults must make choices.

              Tired, I am glad you had ‘the talk’ with your husband that put the puzzle pieces together… that is, if a woman is willing to destroy a wife because the wife is preventing her from getting what she wants, she will one day turn that on the spouse who does not give her what she wants. Peoples actions define them. If they are willing to do heinous things to get a married man, they will do heinous things to the married man.

              Here is an example that I have forgotten to share that I will never forget. It sends chills up my spine. There was a local family who rented space in a warehouse and set up a business with indoor bouncy castles where they set aside free time in the evenings for local families to pay a flat fee to come in and bounce. At one point they added a small toddler area and put different sized bouncy balls in the toddler area for the toddlers to play with.

              I took my son one Monday night and there was a divorced dad there with his 4 kids and what looked like was their new step mom. We were the only people in the place. I heard enough from the kids and also saw they looked nothing like the step mom to see they were not hers. The kids were scared of her. She took the balls from the toddler area and started throwing them at lightening speed at the faces of the kids who were not hers. If they could not catch them she laughed and called them weak. Then when they got in the bouncy castles she put up her fists and wanted to fight. (All of the kids appeared to range in age from 3 years old to 9 years old). She would punch at them and if they did not move, she would call them wimps. Then she started chasing them and pinning them to the ground and calling them weak and worthless. I was watching their father and he looked like a deer in the headlights. She treated him worse. She would punch him for real under the guise of playing or trip him and laugh. I have never seen a woman act like that for an extended period of time in a public place around perfect strangers. I have seen aggressive women in their homes, but never one so aggressive, entitled, and clueless, that she did not even care how she appeared to others. We steered clear of her because she started throwing balls our way to see if she could hit us. She kept yelling she hated weak people. At that point we started to leave. I swear to God she was going to start a fist fight. She was insane. I wish I could have gotten the names of these kids because I would have called CPS. She was verbally and physically abusing them in a public place and the more the kids avoided her, the more she chased them and wrestled them and called them weak and punched them. I felt sick to me stomach. I caught her eye a couple of times and looked at her like she had better stop, but I never said anything. That is when she started throwing the balls at me and my son. I have never in my life witnessed this in a completely public space coming from a stranger. She was beating this guy’s children up in front of me and the owners. What was she doing when no one was around? Her husband was too scared of her to stop her. SHAME ON HIM. I could feel the pain of these children. I do not confront strangers. But, if I could have a do over, I would have confronted her. I have taken that as a learning point and promised myself that if I were to witness such a thing again, I would take the children aside and talk to them.

              And one day I had to keep that promise to myself.

              For example, when we were in the Big Island the last time, my husband had me drive an hour to a pharmacy because it was cheaper than the nearby pharmacy. The pharmacy I had to drive to was part of a large medical clinic. I had to sign all these papers before I could even fill the prescription. I took my youngest along. As we waited in this beautifully manicured outdoor area, I saw a young mom with two kids around the age of my youngest. She was in tears and her children looked lost. They sat down at a table and the ex husband was in tow. The ex-husband was a blond mainlander and she was what appeared to be a Hawaiian and Caucasian mix. She was STUNNING and could have modeled. She was 5’10’ with perfect olive skin, light green eyes, and long, jet black hair. Her ex-husband yelled at the top of his voice that she a whore, a bitch, a cunt, and that she was crazy. Her son and her daughter looked down at the ground and contorted their faces as they tried not to cry as they listened to their dad. The mom sat and cried and pleaded with her ex-husband to allow to get the children medical treatment. The children had gotten worms and she begged to fill a prescription the doctor gave her. Her husband would not let her fill it. He was torturing her and using her love of her children to get to her. And he was hurting his kids too. At one point, he yelled a ton of swear words MUCH WORSE than the ones before and stomped off.

              I looked down at my son and said, “You know what mommy does right?” He said, “Yes, you help sad people feel better.” I asked, “Do you see that family and how they are all crying? Would it be okay if mommy went and spoke to them”? My son said, “Yes, you will talk and I will pray to Jesus for them.”

              So, I walked over, introduced myself to the woman and said: “I know I am a stranger, but I work with people in situations such as yours and I was hoping I could give you some words of encouragement.” She nodded and asked for me to sit next to her while she cried. I explained to her that I understood her ex husband was emotionally abusing her and her children– that what he was doing was WRONG– and that she mustn’t be intimidated by him or allow him to abuse her or the children. The children walked over and looked shyly at me and listened. I looked at them and said, “It’s ok. I am a safe person. Please sit down.” Well, instead her two children ran into my arms and hugged me and cried. I told them both that they mustn’t listen to the way their father speaks or what he says because he is wrong. I told them they are infinitely lovable and their father has an anger problem. But they did not cause it and must not listen to his words. He is sick with anger and they must ignore what he says. Then, I looked at the woman and asked her if her ex husband had ever said anything nice to her– if he had ever told her how beautiful and gentle she was. She shook her head “no” and told me he tells her she is so ugly that no one would ever want her. That she was horrid and unlovable and that is why he treated her that way. I asked if there had ever been an affair or any other thing. She said there was no affair– he had always been abusive and she had to leave. I told her that she can go see a therapist because she has rights and a therapist can help her and her children. But that most of all, I told her that she and her children were amazing and gentle people and they must not listen to anything he says. I told her she must stand up to him calmly and say she refuses to listen to him and will file a restraining order if he keeps verbally assaulting her. (She did not even know she had those rights because he had brainwashed her.)

              Then her ex-husband returned. He looked at me and said, “Who the fuck are you? Are you wasting my time by talking to my crazy ex-wife? She is fucking psycho. Don’t listen to anything she says.”

              And for the very first time in my life, I stood up to a stranger. I do not often stand up to anyone. I walk away from fights. I refuse to engage. But, something inside me broke– I could see the future of these children and the harm he was causing them. And that was NOT OKAY. I decided to model to them how normal people handled people like him.

              The guy was probably my height (5’6′) and very thin. I looked at him and told him in a calm and matter of fact voice that I have a degree in psychology. I told him his ex-wife was not crazy and that he was a bully. I told him calmly that even though he has tried to bully and abuse this woman, I have told her about her worth and her rights, And I have told his children about their worth and their rights as inherently lovable human beings. Then he said something about his ex wife being a crazy liar. I told him calmly I did not believe it and that it did not matter what she did or did not do. I told him he was choosing to be an abusive bully and that I refused to be intimidated. I told him for as long as I was there standing in the same area, I would keep talking to her and the kids about their worth and pointing out his abusive personality. I said it all very calmly in a headed way. I held me head high and made eye contact to show him he could not play the game with me.

              He had nothing to say and yelled I was crazy just like his ex wife and he stomped off.

              She broke down in tears. I told her to get a good attorney and to NEVER listen to anything he says. I told her about gas-lighting and that he is an old-fashioned bully and abuser. The woman and her two kids all crawled into my arms and cried for about 10 minutes. I took each child aside and talked to them about their worth and each child hugged me and cried. I told them that as a total stranger I could see their worth and see them as lovable and that was the truth. I told them life might be hard but they must remember God’s never-ending love for them and the things I have said about their worth regardless of what their father says. Their father is a sick man and does not know how to love. They must not take his terrible words onto themselves because when their father calls them worthless, he is actually calling himself worthless. He can only see his faults and he projects them onto others. But they are his faults and not theirs. Then the mom had enough strength to go fill the medicine, despite what her husband said and went on her way and thanked me. She said she had been asking God all week for courage and someone to guide her. She said I showed up and she immediately knew I went “sent” and her kids did too. Indeed, I had been sent way out of my way (an hour away) for something I could have gotten 5 minutes away. My husband could get a prescription for a $1 less if I drove an hour away and would not drop it. Then I had to fill out papers and wait. But just as the right moment, I was there when she was there. And then I understood why.

              When my son and I got in the car, I asked him if it was okay that I did that. I never act that way. EVER. My son said very vehemently, “Yes, mommy. You HAD to do that. I was praying and God told me we were there for a reason.” (This from an 8-year-old on the autism spectrum.)

              When I talk about the Big Island and my soul connection there is a reason. Whenever I am there, God sends people my way at just the right time and people’s lives are changed through kind words or kind acts. I can be on any random errand and a stranger will be put in my path who needs to hear the right thing at the right time. Everything falls into place. It’s an extreme synchronicity that occurs when I am there and everything that happens there happens for a reason. It is so abundantly clear while I am there that I am supposed to be there and that I have a lot of work to do there. That I have been called there to help the people there in a more general type of therapeutic way. I have never experienced such constant and sustained synchronicity in my entire life. And it all happens there and only there. I have been to 23 countries and all the Hawaiian islands and it only happens on the Big Island.

              Also, when I talk about being sent, it does not mean I was chosen. I was NOT chosen. Quite the contrary. About five years ago, I told God that I was giving my life to him in a more concrete way. I told him though I am NOT perfect, I was still giving my life to him. I told him that I make the choice very intentionally to do his work if he sends people to me who I can help. I told God (which is the universal force of love that overlies and serves as the foundation of the universe, that I made the choice to do his work if he sent people. An that I choose to try to become a better person and I choose to allow him to shape me to better serve him. So, I am not special. God did NOT call me. I called him and made the very intentional decision to allow him to shape my character so I could dedicate my life to his work, no matter what form it took. I do not belong to a religious congregation. I believe in the one God and believe this God is a force for good and a force of unconditional love. I study Christianity and Judaism. I also read Buddhism, realizing it is a philosophy and not a religion. I believe in righteous anger when dealing with those who harm others. Breaking up marriages and killing others are the highest forms of harm.

              I don’t even know why I got on this tangent. I have never been able to ‘stand in my power’ against a male bully on behalf of another woman and her children. I have never been able to stand up against a bully in my own life. I hire an attorney if I need to or I walk away.

              I don’t even know why I wrote this long message. Maybe somewhere out there someone needs to hear this. And I think we need cultural changes where we each take a more active role in stopping abuse where we see it. Instead of saying (not our business) which was what I always did, something bigger than myself took over and I let it. Something in me broke when I saw the pain in those children’s eyes. I saw the boy holding back tears and telling himself he wouldn’t cry because he was a boy. And I saw the little girl slump her shoulders in absolute shame and despair. That was it. The momma bear came out. I never lose my cool and I never raise my voice. But, I was able to calmly sit there and speak the truth to both the woman and her children and then stand in my power when the bully came back. I was strong for them to show them that if you do not accept the bully’s narrative– if you just stand there calmly, cooly, and reject it and call it out for what it is, you take away the bully’s power. There is no need for yelling or violence. There is no need for swearing. There is only need to reject the bully’s narrative out loud, show the bully you are rejecting their narrative, and assert your reality.


              After that all happened, I had come across this awesome Ted Talk online. I realized that I was basically doing what this woman described on how to handle gas-lighting.

              If you are a betrayed spouse, your wayward spouse is going to be gas-lighting you to the maximum, depending on where you are in your recovery. It is essential to know how to stand up to gas-lighting. This video is very important and I believe all betrayed spouses should watch it and consider implementing the tools the speaker suggests. The talk is really something all of us must listen to and maybe listen to it several times. These tools are essential to affair recovery, even though they are not directly stated as such by the speaker. Please watch the video and take in its message. Also, I did not mean to offend anyone who is an atheist or agnostic. I do not judge you. Everyone has his or her own path and I do not judge whatever path they take or do not take.


            • Tired

              “I have never been able to stand up against a bully in my own life.” There is your answer. That is why you do this. Your son recognised it.

              That step mother is from hell. I’m not sure how a man could stand there and allow her to treat HIS children like this. There is more to the story though. “I can’t stand weak people” suggests she thinks he is weak. And she is angry at him and taking it out on his kids. I would like to know what goes on behind closed doors. Not nice, is my feeling.

              I’m glad you stood up to the next bully Sarah. No one deserves to be treated like that. And he was treating the woman disgracefully. And like all bullies, when confronted they stomp off.

              I don’t like to second guess people, Sarah. You haven’t said either of these partners were spouse poachers. However, I seem to get the feeling that you think spouse poachers are bullies? Is that what you are implying?

              Good on you for standing up to these people.

      • Tired

        Yeah, wives don’t like women like that. Our OW got fired from her job after the affair became workplace knowledge…I believe it was because the boss’s wife and the other women working there didn’t want her around once she was known to be hitting on married men, lol.

        As for the 80 year old Lothario: “Of course he didn’t know she was a prostitute and thought this young woman was interested in his saggy old ass!” Nearly spat my coffee out at that one Trying Hard. Hilarious!!!

      • Sarah P.

        Hi TryingHard,

        That is hilarious.

        (Cue Satire)

        But, all the guy really had to say to the police that he wasn’t wearing his glasses and stopped to ask the person for directions on how to get home. If the police officer reminded him it was a prostitute, he could have acted all shocked and told the police officer that was mean to call the lady he asked for directions a “lady of the night.” It was certainly not night. If the police tried to handcuff him, he could have told them he did not have his “blue pills” with him and so why would he want a prostitute anyways? Unfortunately, when the ‘trouser brain’ is making the decisions, it can’t formulate even the most obvious excuses.

        (End satire.)

        I looked up that whole STD story about The Villages. In these parts where i live, no one retires in Florida. Many people retire where I live. WebMD had a warning about The Villages and how even if a woman cannot get pregnant she can still get STDs. Really? These people are over 65 and know the facts of life by now. It’s not like they are a bunch of 16-year-olds. Or maybe they are 16-year-olds. I saw that The Villages was compared to one never-ending college frat party for retired people.

        That sounds like hell on earth. I think I will take a pass.

        Glad that guy was finally ‘put to bed’ and his wife has a new man who loves her.


        • TryingHard

          LOL I have no doubt the reputation of The Villages. It’s a huge place. I also picture my h’s little 90 year old aunties who went there. Very proper, very educated and widowed little old ladies. No thanks to any of those places. I don’t care how good the weather is in the winter.

          • Sarah P.

            Hi TryingHard,
            My dad once asked his dad if they (his dad and his mom) were going to move to Sun City in Arizona to escape the horrendous winters of their state. (It’s kinda difficult for almost 70-year-olds to shovel 12 feet of snow away from their door almost everyday for 6 months.) So, my dad suggested that since his parents had no financial worries and could afford to live wherever they wanted, why not Sun City?

            My grandpa told my dad that was a hard NO. He would NEVER live in Sun City.

            And my dad asked why.

            And my 65-year-old grandfather said, “I hate senior citizens. Leave me be in my young and hip college town and I will hire someone to shovel snow.” And so he did.


            My dad’s parents were awesome and I miss them so much. For grandma’s 90th birthday we had to figure out how to accommodate between 400-600 people so we rented a large church’s conference area.

            I wish someone would have drilled into my head on a DAILY basis when I was younger that while I knew I would miss my grandparent’s, I would never learn how much I would miss them until they were gone. And the missing is brutal.

            Anyone else have a family or family members who were so cool that the missing them gets worse as the years go by? That’s how I feel about my grandparents. The ache increases each year when I find out most people are NOT like them.


            • Sarah P.

              My grandfather did NOT really hate senior citizens. He was a funny, sweet, and kind man who had many friends. He was universally well-loved and retired rom the US Government. But, he refused to accept the limitations of the aging process. He never slowed down until the day he died of a heart attack. Up until then, each day was packed full of hobbies and friends.


    • TryingHard

      I know right !?!?? Seriously, the old fart and what’s even funnier can you just picture him talking to the cops as he’s being led away in handcuffs … “seriously Mr Policeman I’m a rich white guy. I don’t pick up prostitutes. I can’t help women love me. I mean look at all this…” UGH. Well he’s dead now and his rich widow is married to a guy that waits on her hand and foot and is hopefully spending his money!!! That’s called Just Desserts

    • CatMandu

      Ok, here goes. I have worked with many folks from the alphabet agencies in our government. Most of them are fine people but if you do have some dysfunction in your personality it is one of the places you can succeed. It is true in government that “if you screw up you can move up.” A great deal of the women use their “wiles” to move up and sleeping to the top is fairly common. Thus you get the Secret Service doing their thing which is what happened during Obama. These weren’t isolated cases but ramped up during his tenure. Now you are seeing what is happening in the FBI. Several affairs are now being confirmed but I guarantee there are more happening there, as well. As for the CIA, they use women frequently in the field and those gals you don’t want around any vulnerable males.

      I worked undercover drug deals early in my career with my partner, who was a large black man. A finer man you could not find and I trusted him with my back but I would never had an affair with him. (I was married, he was not.) The kind of work we were doing required such a clear head, working with the big cartels, an affair would not only have been stupid but extremely dangerous. But there are women out there who think they can play fast and loose and not get caught. I have unfortunately, seen the outcome of this and it usually involves a dead person.

      What is even more baffling to me is the number of high ranking people (military officers, flag level) who endanger their careers by having a fling with one of these floozies. Some of these idiots have risked and lost their retirements for a quick piece of ass. At the very least there is usually a very public humiliation and somewhere in the mix is a very determined spouse poacher. Paula Broadwell, comes to mind and General Petraeus.

      • Sarah P.

        Hi CatMandu,

        So what were some of the horror stories that you saw regarding affairs during your career?

        There was this military lady who allegedly had a decent rank who tried to poach my husband. I looked up photos of her online and there were all these pictures of her hugging generals twice her age and sitting on then laps. I found two divorce records before she even turned 36. Between her ending up on probation in the medical system for making the most obvious but deadly patient errors and me stepping in to show her I would have the military on the phone and report her for cheating, she stopped messing with me. I could tell she had like four other guys “in the hopper’ to see which one would pan out more quickly. I told my husband that he needed to tell her to stop sitting next to him at work and mind her own business. About a week later, she was engaged to some random guy who was a veterinarian. After she got engaged, she chopped off her long hair, stopped wearing even a bit off make-up, and started dressing in scrubs. Before that, her hair was almost down to her waist, and she wore nightclub make-up and tight clothing. I feel sorry for the guy she married because I saw her last husband had filed for divorce because of her multiple infidelities. It was done in a state where they were able to list that as a reason. I am glad the guy she married moved her 2,000 miles away. It’s one less problem for me. However, I looked him up and could tell he was a genuinely kind person who had no idea he had just married a black widow. As soon as she finds someone with whom she can trade up, she will. But, to most people, she tried to act like this harmless little farm girl from the Midwest. Maybe, but she hides her spiked tail and pitchfork behind her back.


    • Sarah P.

      Hello Nearly Normal,

      Lol. Yes and we are all expert witnesses here. and unfortunately many of the things we expertly witnessed were really yucky life lessons. All I know is that the only thing — on a very serious level— that keeps me going each day is God and prayer. Without God and Dog in my life, I don’t know how I would cope, even though there will always be the Big Island of Hawaii, which is my soul home. I am trying to convince my H to leave the mainland for good and move there. We bought a townhouse. It doesn’t have a view of the water and it’s half the size of our house, but it is more my home than our house on the mainland. Note to all betrayed spouses — Hawaii still has its laws that state infidelity is a crime and people can sue for alienation of affection there. I am starting to believe that’s part of the reason it’s a nice place. The cost of living is high and people cannot afford a divorce. Plus the culture is different on the Big Island than anywhere else. It still has many Hawaiians who speak Hawaiian as their first language. When I go there, I abide by their cultural rules and have their viewpoint and they all assume I am a Hawaiian mix and from there. That’s what the genetic Hawaiians have told me. I will take it because they are the only people on this earth who I believe have most of it correct. And a tip for all Hoales including myself. When you visit the Islands, please don’t act in the way that we mainlanders act. It’s very offensive. We conquered them (just like we did go the Native Americans) and we destroyed their way of life. Here is the thing that sucks. Their cultures were like diamond mines and ours is fools gold. Instead of realizing we found a diamond mine and learning all the way of life they had to teach which was based on non-materialistic values and the fact that nature is sacred, our ancestors said “forget that.” Pave down all those trees and make way for profit so that we can build a bigger house than the next guy. Big mistake. It is only by developing riches within and investing in the emotional well being of others that we reach a life filled with satisfaction. Focusing on the next big material thing slowly kills our soul and leaves us spiritually bankrupt.

      Cue Sarire.

      Say what? “Why did Sarah P. just give a historical and spiritual lesson on an infidelity blog.” Even Sarah P. does not know when the Great Spirit or even the Jedi Force will hijack the keyboard.

      End satire.

      Quite seriously that is terrific news about EMDR. If you do not mind sharing with us, can you tell us the specifics of your therapist’s technique? Here is why. The Gottnans have found that EMDR can be tremendously healing. But there is a huge caveat. It is highly dependent upon the therapists understanding of it because it is a methodology unto itself. It’s such a large field there could in theory be a Master’s degree in EMDR. I have studied it extensively but it also requires to be done in person and not over Skype. Many people call themselves EMDR therapists. But unless they have a certification in it from a recognized university, most therapists do not understand it. I know the methodology backwards and forwards but would never call myself a specialist in EMDR. I also do not offer it in person because I know what is required to make a difference. I only have the theoretical skill set and could write about it and it’s theory but I would never administer it. Not everyone who calls themselves an EMDR therapist feels remotely the same way. I learned about it during one of the Gottman trainings. Hint: a real EMDR therapist does not need to use rapid eye movements to help someone. It is the therapeutic method that helps and not the eye movements. But if you are getting better that means you have found an EMDR pro and that is fantastic. It’s such a powerful healing technique if the therapist is a pro at it. So can you tell us a little bit about what your therapist does in a session? I am not referring to confidential ideas. I am referring to a technique. Does the therapist ask a set of questions to figure out where the heart of your trauma is located? Do they talk that through? Do they use the eye movements or do they usually a light and sound device? Or do they do guided meditation to let go of harmful beliefs? This is important to know in case others are looking for an EMDR therapist. It would be great to know what yours does right so that people know what questions to ask a therapist they are interviewing?

      Note to everyone: therapy works. It can work miracles. But sometimes I recommend interviewing five or six different therapists before settling on one.

      A huge pitfall: I have rarely seen a case where a friend says to go see their therapist that they know because that therapist is guaranteed to help. Nope. Therapy is a very personal process. The person who is a God send for one person will not necessarily have what another person needs.

      For example, when all of us were out dating and looking for a spouse, none of us walked up to any random single person of the opposite sex and said “let’s get married.” That would be difficult to enter into an intimate relationship with someone just because they have the part that fits together with your part to create a baby.

      Finding the therapist is the same thing. It’s highly individual and never give up on it because one therapist doesn’t give you what you need. Also, if a therapist makes you angry, that’s a good thing. (I know that is counter intuitive). It will point out to you the unconscious things you project onto others that create blind spots. The anger can signal a breakthrough if you don’t walk away. My husband has gone through several therapists because he walks away when the anger comes. The anger points to the area he needs to heal, but healing that area is so scary he gets angry and walks away. Then it’s onto the next one. They come to the same conclusion, he gets angry, and never goes back.

      Just a tip to everyone out there. If any of us here trigger anger in each other we need to explore why. It has to do with projections and areas of frustration that we need to heal in ourselves.

      Nearly Normal, I am not taking about you or anyone else. I just realized that if anger is triggered between anyone, it can be used in a way to move forward (just like it is in a therapists office) and help people have breakthroughs.

      Anger is triggered intentionally to cover up pain or insecurity. If we look at the insecurity it masks, then we can find the source of our pain. If we find the source of our pain, we know exactly what we need to work on.

      But anger is different than righteous anger. Righteous anger is about the outrage we need to feel and are entitled to feel when someone actually commits an act of evil.

      Someone walks up and starts kicking an innocent animal in our precence? That triggers righteous anger and let’s us know we need to stand up for whomever is being harmed.

      Enough of my diatribe.

      Nearly Normal if you could give us some practical hints about how your therapist is helping both you and your marriage, please let us know. We would love to hear about it.

      As for your wife’s mistakes all those years ago, I can intuit she was young and perhaps insecure or had some kind of internal pain. She was looking for something outside herself to help ease the pain and did not realize that having an affair is the WORST thing to do if feeling bored, depressed, insecure, or anything else. It sounds like she is no longer that person and has insight. Is that correct?


      Here is a question: how many readers here married their high school or college sweetheart and did it while young an inexperienced? While it should be a good thing, many people do not know who they are met alone what they really want until 30. It’s not an excuse.

      • Nearly Normal

        Hi Sarah.

        College sweethearts in our case. Inexperienced, yes. Waited about a year before marrying.

        Yes, I regard my wife as a different person, and she does, too. The old behaviors that led to trouble are just not there, thank God.

        A large part of why I went to the therapist in the first place was to improve my communication with my wife. When she would do something that in any way reminded me of the pain of betrayal, I would back down and shut down and clam up. The pain would allow nothing else. Obviously, this is unhealthy, and I knew it, but there was little i could do until I was able to seek therapy.

        So EMDR was serving to deprogram those neural connections that made even tiny things seem like a major betrayal. It has worked beautifully, and a there are a number of benefits: communication is working much better, my overall mood is more optimistic and happy, and our sex life has rejuvenated. I haven’t felt a genuine triggering moment in weeks, which is awesome.

        My therapist did a lot of talking with me, digging in to find the source of trauma, addressing negative thinking that I was engaging in (much less now, and I immediately shut it down instead of wallowing in it). She used lights and earphones and vibration, although she said at any time if I felt like it I didn’t need to be watching the lights, so she seems to recognize that the lights aren’t completely necessary. Yes, the method was very important, not just the movements.

        And wow, the process could be emotionally painful! If anyone is getting ready for EMDR, be ready to cry in front of a stranger. Of course, I as a man would never admit that I did so several times in several sessions.

        Hope this helps someone consider trying it if you are suffering from PTSD-like symptoms.

    • Sarah P.


      Cue Satire

      I finally figured out why I started talking about what Westerners did to Native Americans and Native Hawaiians on an infidelity blog. All are great examples of innocent people getting screwed.

      End satire.


    • Rose

      Sarah, OMG, it is my soul island too! I dreamed about it vividly before I ever visited…it was exactly like my dreams. We stayed in Pahoa near Hilo. I never wanted to come back. H hated it…he burns and hates the sun. That’s why I’ve often thought it would make a fine retreat for myself and maybe live there some day.

    • Tired

      Trying hard, I can just picture two young strapping, attractive policeman arresting this creepy old man. And the jokes after it! So funny! I’m glad his wife found a new man. Hope the new guy is not spending her money as well though

    • Sarah P.

      Hi Rose,

      (Cue satire).

      It’s actually your lucky day because there is a fire sale on land in Pahoa. Pele has gotten angry again and is currently paving over Pohoa with her wrath. I am pretty sure she is angry because everyone on the Hilo side builds houses without septic systems OR plumbing. They spill all their unfiltered toilets into the ground which seeps into the ocean on that side and also the super clean and deep aquifer under the island. Pele finally put her foot down and is paving over all the homes with lava.

      (End satire)

      Quite seriously that is happening as we speak. It’s a huge disaster. And land and homes on the East side of the island are at bargain basement prices. As for your H and the sun, Pahoa and the East side of the Big Island experiences the most rainfall in the United States. So, in theory he could move there.

      (Cue satire)

      But, quite frankly, if I were you, I would pack my bags, close all my mutual savings accounts and open new ones in your name at the Bank of Hawaii, and then relocate to the West side of the island where property is still reasonably priced and where it never rains. Then you can send a greeting card from Hawaii that says, “Aloha from the sunny side of the Big Island where your skin burns and the store doesn’t sell sunscreen. Please sign the enclosed divorce papers ASAP so that I can get on with building my own paradise without you. As you see on the greeting card, you are no longer in the picture. Mahalo, (no longer) yours, Rose.”

      (End satire)

      Hint hint, wink wink. I don’t remember what you said you do for a living, but there are tons of jobs there. Thankfully most people still believe the Big Island is boring. And actually it is. And that is why I love it. There is no nightlife, no fanciness except in Mauna Lani, and the only things to do are swim, hike, bike, surf, snorkel, boat, scuba dive, swim, swim, and swim again in the most clean and healing ocean waters on earth. But that will be our Big Secret at EAJ.

      A very serious announcement to everyone:

      One of the many exciting things coming in the future is a 5-day poolside healing conference. The conference room is located at a giant pool and has movable glass walls that open to a lagoon pool and waterfalls and lots of shaded areas with tables. It will be reasonably priced and I will definitely be there and so will whichever well-known authors choose to join. (I have a list, but that will be part of the big Reveal when we actually get time and decide to go for it. And none of the above is satire.

      Quite seriously, if anyone wants to go to a 5-day poolside conference next to the ocean, raise your hand. It will give me an idea if we have enough people that way I can secure great speakers. Or, there will be an opportunity at the same place with just me and a few couples or me and a few betrayed spouses. I don’t have prices yet, but they will be reasonable. (And hopefully Linda and Doug will be willing to join us and say hello in person and even fully participate under the condition that there are no cameras or recording devices). I think that would be fantastic if we all agreed to that role so that the site owners can fully participate. (Why? Because they are the star attraction here. They created EAJ!)

      So, quite seriously…

      If anyone out there remotely thinks this might be a fun thing to do, please raise your hand. We will keep prices low and also set up payment plans so that cash doesn’t have to be an issue and everyone can join us. It will be held in a luxury, gated townhome community and I am pretty sure I can secure accommodation for as low as $99/night if there is a group of people. But, the place itself is a 4-Star resort.

      So who wants to come?

    • Tired

      Hi Sarah, I think Rose is a nurse. And nursing is always in demand. I’m sure she would find a job anywhere she wanted to go. Anywhere in the world. So I think Rose, if you’re thinking of moving to Hawaii and starting a new life…way to go!

      I love Hawaii, and the Big Island is a fascinating place. The recent events there are scary. I remember being there a few years ago and we were told at the Volcanoes National Park that no one near Kilauea could get house insurance. And land is cheap because that’s the risk you take. When we were there, a helicopter pilot we went up with told us how he was the one to go and save a man who lived there as his house was about to be eaten up by this slow moving lava.

      I’m not sure Hawaii is safe anymore. Or maybe it never was. It’s the stepping stone to the US. It will always be a target, just like in 1941. Nowadays there is this East China Sea stuff, and the problems between US and China. Not so sure that drill you experienced was an accident, Sarah.

    • TryingHard

      Not to be contrary, but I’m pretty sure those people that were shot in the newspaper office in Annapolis MD yesterday felt they lived and worked in a pretty safe environment. No one is safe ANYWHERE and life is short!

      LOL there is no way I would let weather or anything else keep me from moving and living where I wanted to live. Now I may not buy a plot in the active path of a volcano simply because it’s cheap either! I want a small flat in Chicago. Now Chicago gets lots of snow and lots of wind and lots of cold in the winter. Don’t care. I love it! I have a friend that goes to the middle east every year. He and his wife love it. To each his own.

      Rose is lucky she has a profession she can do wherever in the world. Good for her. I hope she gets to live out her dream wherever that may be.

    • bor

      ‘If any of you are wayward spouses, I beg you to break off your affair and get help from a therapist immediately. Your affair is not special and your affair partner in not different and certainly not your soulmate. I beg you to get help for both your future and the future of others in your family. Please do this, even if you are in the middle of the affair fog.”

      This is the part of my WW affair that i have yet to get answers for. She did go to a counselor. Told me twice,(it was actually 8) for my son who was hospitalized three months earlier, for a month, including ICU for about 24 of those 28 days. I have asked her why she didn’t tell the counselor about the affair? She just says she needed the help for herself to get support for what happen to him. But during the therapy the counselor gave her a john Gottman CD to listen to based off the seven principles. How do those two things go together? I believe she did bring up the marriage and the difficulties she was having in the relationship but the therapist just never asked her the most obvious question. Like is there another person you are interested in or admire?(affair) When i found about the affair this was the same therapist i said i wanted us to go to. The first time i met this lady she was was like what brings you here today?(smile) When i said “because i caught my wife having an affair for the last year and half.” the therapist almost fell out of her chair. She actually apologized for her reaction. She was completely fooled by my wife. You see she was deep into the affair fog (limerence) when she went. I think that during that time she was suffereing possible from the cognitive dissonance that is spoken of when people have to lie to themselves or go crazy. I feel that is when she started to rewrite the marriage and make me the bad guy although she had already been telling herself that i was flawed for several months. I found a letter she wrote to a friend/energy healer two months before therapy how i had my good points but had my bad points as well. Her writing about the other man had already crossed the line of fantasizing about sexulizing the relationship with him and how he was so good at listening, supporting and helping trying to heal my son. What kind of person can’t tell a therapist that they are having an affair when their spouse isn’t even in the room? What kind of lier is that self protection? trying to make themselves look better? I wish i could get the therapists note but she retired in 2016. Needless to say we only had two CC sessions my wife was doing IC with her and it came up at our first LMFT that her IC had told her how it must really be an “important relationship and how she understood her reasons for not giving it up.”

      UHHH that is not what I am paying you to empathize with.

    • Sarah P.

      Hi Tired and TryingHard,

      You both have great points. And I was shocked at yesterday’s events at the newspapers office. My heart and prayers with the bereaved families.

      Tired. Dang it. I had just managed to forget about the North Korea drill and believe it was fake. But, truth be told, when it was happening my intuition told me it was real.

      Before the drill happened I was up early. Something felt off as I was driving to get Starbucks. After I got Starbucks and was driving home, I could not shake the feeling. I pulled my car over and started taking pictures of the sky. After I started driving back to our townhouse the alert went off. I was almost there where it went off. I have those time stamped photos of the sky on my phone to this day. It seemed odd to me that it took just over 40 minutes to correct it. My intuition told me something was wrong 10 minutes before the alert came and caused me to take pictures of the sky. I have never done that before. It was the same feeling I got hours before the planes hit the trade centers on 9/11. Weird huh.


      • Tired

        I think anyone in that situation would have been in panic mode, Sarah, including me! I just thought it might have been a sneaky way of seeing the public’s response to a real attack. Probably set up someone they didn’t like to be the fall guy. Anyway, this is way off topic, so enough

        • Sarah P

          Hi Tired,

          Way off topic is fine here. I do agree that sometimes the government runs drills just to see people’s reactions. They have been doing that for years, regardless of the administration. And that’s all I will say because my political views do not fit into any kind of current box or under any party.

    • Rose

      Hey Sarah, I’m in for a conference! Hope we can name it something that relates to healthcare in some way so my employer will let me go, ha.

      • Sarah P

        Hi Rose,

        Can I ask if you work for a large hospital system in the Pacific Northwest? I am very familiar with CMEs and their rules. I have been looking into how to put together some kind of psychology CME for doctors/nurses/PA’s/Nurse Practitioners. Just don’t know what hospitals would think is “relevant” to medicine in the field of psychology. There is a huge mind-body connection and that is important. But, many Western doctors still like to dismiss the mind-body connection as fluff. Nope. It is not fluff. It makes people sick. Stress causes the adrenal glands to fail. (I know you have come across this idea, but do you believe it? Many people don’t.)

        I also think there needs to be some training in how doctors should approach patients and another set of training that talks about workplace relationships and boundaries. These hospital systems need to wake up because workplace affairs are costly. I believe there should be a no tolerance policy.

        Not like some would follow it. When my H was finishing residency, there was this male doctor there who tried to befriend my H. The guy was too wild for my H and so my H would talk to him if he was bored. The guy got fired from residency because he falsified all these fake internships he never did. After that happened, just about every nurse on staff talked about how they had slept with him. (The doctor was single). Then, my H inherited some of that doctor’s patients. He heard from at least 5 different patients that the doctor who was fired slept with them and if he wanted to pick it up where the other left off, they were game. Of course my husband told me and also told HR. One of the patients told my H that the doc that got fired delivered her baby. After the doctor saw “all of her goods” he was having sex with her a week after she had given birth. Yes, folks. This happens. And it is more common than anyone knows. I looked up that doctor the other day and it looks like he lost his license.

        (Cue sarcasm)

        Oh really? But why? People don’t lose licenses for sleeping with patients. Maybe after that lady gave birth he was giving her a sexual healing.

        (End sarcasm)

        Seriously, this is DISGUSTING.


    • Rose

      Sarah, I work for an international healthcare IT company as a nurse. Oh and the fact that stress affects the adrenal glands is a PROVEN fact so if docs pooh-pooh the mind-body connection, they get to educate themselves!

      • Sarah P.

        HI Rose,

        You have piqued my curiosity. I did not realize there was an international healthcare IT company that hired nurses and doctors. I am aware that there is a large software company that develops EPIC and that hospitals buy the out-of-the-box software and have it configured in-house.

        I know EPIC because my H has had to use the software for our entire marriage. I used to design and project-manage and product-manage all this stuff in IT, so I am always curious about what is being designed and implemented. EPIC is not very good. IMHO.

        My marriage is funny because my H (the family doc) believes everything that he read in his very Western-based medical school years ago. He closes his ears to the phrases “mind-body connection” or “Adrenal gland fatigue” or “stress and visceral fat correlations” or “near death experience.” But, if you want to make my husband REALLY ANGRY all you have to do is say one word: naturopathy.

        I think this is the word that offends him the most in the English language. I am not speaking satirically here. He gets so worked up when I mention anything that might even vaguely be related to herbs or naturopathy or acupuncture and he gets mad. (Not satire).

        I am pretty sure he would be less offended if someone told him I had an affair. It would be okay as long as it was not with a naturopath. (That is satire, btw.)

        So, it’s interesting because I like to research all aspects of everything under the sun, including things in healthcare.

        Anyhow… have you met doctors like this?


        • Hopeful

          Sarah, So interesting my dr. fits that bill. My dr. says that adrenal fatigue and other things like that are not valid. Also my dr. says stop drinking beer and eating so many carbs to lose weight. Meanwhile I am never even asked what I eat. I am very frustrated by the closed minded thinking. I am not saying to automatically embrace everything but I think nutrition, sleep and movement can be very powerful. And there is a real lack of listening and getting to the root of an issue. More of a band aid or one size fits all approach.

    • Rose

      Hi Sarah, I work WITH Epic but not FOR Epic. PM me if you want more info. I work for one of only two companies in the world with this particular software. I’ve worked with Epic for years (and other EHR systems) and I love it! Yeah, it’s unfortunate that medical students don’t get more information on alternative therapies and rely so heavily on Western medicine. I’m thankful my doctor is very interested in trying alternative therapies and has a very open mind about them.

    • Eman

      I want to thank you for your article. Everything you said is the truths .infidelity is very painful to the betrayed spouse and the family
      Infidelity used to be crime .we live in society with no moral and no God fear .everything is about what makes feel makes me sick in my stomach. More than 50%of people in all dating web site are married. Not only Ashley Madison web site .all the dating web site everyone lie .women and men.i worked with women who were cheating in their husbands with no conscious or remorse just like men .they are destroying the family and the society. I believe when you take out God out of everything that what you get society with no conscious

    • Sarah P.

      Hello Eman,

      I am glad you read my article.

      In my personal opinion I agree with ???? of what you said.

      And yes, when God gets taken out of everything this is what happens.

      This is my opinion as someone who prays to God many times a day. The God I pray it is based in the Judeo Christian belief system, but I believe in a loving, forgiving, and inclusive God. He loves everyone.

      There is another side to organized religion. It doesn’t matter what religion it is either. There are many “wolves in sheep’s clothing” in organized religion— all of them.

      I believe God needs to be included in anything. But unless people make the decision to love God first, organized religion can be broken.

      In fact if people loved God first and loved their neighbors as themselves, well we would have a totally different world.

      In the past there were two sets of laws AGAINST infidelity. There was the law in the 10 Commandments that adulterous relations are a SIN. But, there were also laws in the United States that made adulterous relationships illegal. People used to go to jail in the United States for adultery. Furthermore, betrayed spouses could sue the other person and recover $$ from the affair partner. So, in this case, both the churches, the Jewish temples, and the actual laws in the United States all FORBID adulterous relationships and there were CONSEQUENCES on every end. There was the “sin,” there was the “jail time,” and there was the financial punishment since the betrayed spouse could sue for $$.

      In that social climate, people had to decide if the consequences were worth it.

      Because many people in this world are selfish and think nothing of harming others. They needed consequences to force them into common decency.

      Now there are no consequences— at least not if a person is selfish. This person does not care if they ruin the lives of their own children or the children from the other person. Nope. It’s all about them. And from their perspective, only their own happiness exists. (I am talking about people who have affairs.) When I see marriages break up due to affairs and see the HARM done to the children, my heart weeps for the children. When people have children, it’s time to think of the children and stay focused on family. After I got married, I put on the psychological equivalent of “horse blinders.” There was only one man in the world – my husband. After our kids were born, I am dedicated to working through anything.

      But that came from within me and not because I was told cheating was wrong. I knew cheating was wrong and never cheated on anyone. But the feeling of being committed came from the core of who I am.

      Many people don’t have this same moral core that guides them. That is why church and strict laws against adultery were necessary. Many people are incapable of being their own “keeper.”

    • Rose

      Sarah…going to have to disagree on this one. I’m an atheist. I’m also a good moral person. Are you saying an A can happen because people don’t believe in God?? Morals have nothing to do with God. I do not need an invisible being telling me what’s right and what’s wrong, and I sure do NOT believe a lack of religion is the root of society’s problems…rather too MUCH organized religion is thevoriblem.

      • Sarah P.


        Affairs do not happen because people don’t believe in God. Let me explain further.

        Also, I have no issue with atheism or atheists. ALL are welcome here. You are right, morals have NOTHING to do with God and there are many moral atheists.

        According to psychology, morals are something that people develop as children– they either internalize moral values or they do NOT internalize moral values. It has nothing to do with God.

        I do not like hypocrisy and I am usually one of the first to point out hypocrisy in organized religion. I cannot stand hypocrisy. I am NOT a member of any organized religion.

        However, on a personal level, I pray and meditate daily for my own peace of mind. I believe there is a loving force that is the foundation of the universe. I believe this loving force does not judge or hate. I call this higher power God. I believe in the one God. But, I have a totally different view of he/she. He/she loves ALL and that means he/she loves gay people and people who commit suicide and atheists and everyone else too.

        Whether people believe in God or not is up to them. It makes no difference to me. I do not get offended based on someone’s religious beliefs or not.

        The only thing that offends me is when people hurt others, which is why some organized religion is problematic– often there was a LOT of hurting others.

        Here is what I see as the ULTIMATE problem: human nature. There are some problematic things in human nature.

        And once upon a time, there were social systems in place that attempted to curb human nature through consequences.

        Here is where the belief in God comes in and I will explain what religion did to provide consequences for those who had affairs. But, it had nothing to do with people believing in God or not. Affairs do NOT happen because people do not believe in God. Affairs happen due to the internalization of moral values or NOT. And each person decides whether or not they internalize values and this has nothing to do with God. It has to do with character.


        Once upon a time, churches provided a moral code for people to follow. The moral code was the 10 Commandments. Once upon a time, Western legal thinking was modeled after the 10 Commandments.

        So, there were two systems in place that created CONSEQUENCES for those who had affairs.

        Eventually, almost all the laws against infidelity fell away. One consequence was removed: a person could no longer have a cheating spouse serve jail time. Will jail time change the spouse? That’s a NO. However, some people do fear consequences and the thought of jail time can serve as a deterrent. The other laws that fell away were the alienation of affection laws where a betrayed spouse could sue the affair partner. Only seven states continue to have alienation of affection laws.

        Then there was The Church. In past times, village life centered around The Church. And many churches taught hell, fire, and brimstone for sinners. Bingo: another consequence.
        Church provided a social system where there were both “spiritual” and “social” consequences to infidelity. Then The Church became less popular.

        So, now both deterrents that helped curb human nature are gone. Believing in God does not stop people from having affairs. I read a statistic that said These days there was a slightly higher infidelity rate among Christians than among non-believers. So, those people who believe in God still cheat. But, today’s church has even become lazy about it.

        Legal and religious consequences are gone and these two systems served to keep human nature in check.

        So no, I am not saying that believing in God prevents affairs. The only thing that prevents affairs is moral internalization.

        However, for those who did NOT internalize morals, well, the structures that provided “consequences” are mostly gone. With consequences gone, people no longer think before they act. In the past, people certainly had affairs, but not as much as one would think.

        I love reading DNA studies. Someone studied to see if people ended up being related to the people they thought they were related to according to family trees etc. This study had all kinds of different data points, but one of them was looking to find out whether our ancestors were busy having “love child’s” with each other all day long. It seemed the answer was “no” and these were the days BEFORE birth control. So, if someone had sex, there was a high chance of pregnancy. I do not know what the current data is on “love childs” in an era where we have birth control and can prevent it. But back in the day, those DNA studies showed that around 95% of people were related to the people in their family tree. If the milkman and the mailman came around, they may not have come around as often as we thought.

        My opinion is that the social structures we had in place that provided consequences probably played a role in that. That is, for the people who did not internalize moral values when they were children, which has nothing to do with God. One upon a time there were stiff penalties for infidelity. Stoning was one of them. I read a description of it and did not realize how horrible it was until I read about what they actually do. *shiver*

        What do you think? Do you think that for the people who did NOT internalize moral values as children, do you think that all the laws against infidelity and the social structures such as The Church made people (without moral values) think twice?

        Personally, I wish that we would re-instate the actual laws against infidelity that have nothing to do with religion. In no fault divorce states, I have seen some of the most horrendous things happen to the betrayed spouse. They can lose everything and end up in poverty– especially if they were stay-at-home moms. Then, for the betrayed men out there, no fault divorce leaves them with no say in how their children are raised. An ex-wife could bring in a revolving door of lovers (who could harm the children) and the dad could do nothing about it. I don’t like no fault divorce– but just an opinion. Something has got to give because right now it’s a ‘free for all’ and my opinion is that betrayed spouses have very little rights in no-fault divorce states.


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