Principles That Ensure a Harmonious, Sensual, and Faithful Marriage

by Sarah P.

jewish-under-chuppah

A traditional Jewish wedding ceremony under a chupah (wedding canopy).

Tips From Modern Orthodoxy

Note: I belong to an inter-faith family, Christianity and reformed Judaism. Both religions dwell harmoniously in our home because we focus on commonalities instead of differences. We have a couple of friends from the modern Orthodox community and there are things we have come to admire about modern orthodoxy—mainly their views of marriage and fidelity. This is an article about common beliefs and values within modern Orthodox Judaism that contribute to fidelity as well as sensuality within a marriage. It is not intended to proselytize, convert, or diminish other religions.

Many people view religiosity and sexual repression as one in the same. Surprisingly, one of the most conservative religious sects on earth, Orthodox Judaism, provides its followers with laws and guidelines that, when followed, afford couples a sensual, psychologically healthy and faithful marriage.

Neither my husband nor I attend a modern orthodox synagogue. I was raised a Christian even though my mother is ethnically Jewish. My husband is wholly ethnically Jewish, but his family is completely secular. He can count the number of times during his life, on one hand, where he stepped foot inside a synagogue.

But, after our children were born, we have both become interested in learning more about Jewish holidays and traditions. When we do attend a synagogue, it is a reformed one where there are many inter-faith couples. Even though we consider ourselves open-minded and freethinking, we have both become intrigued by the hundreds of laws and extremely conservative beliefs that Orthodox Jews faithfully follow in terms of marriage.

Let’s Take A Look Inside A Typical Orthodox Community

If you were to walk down the street in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood, you would see men and women carrying on separate lives. You would also see women fully covered wearing modest clothing, no makeup and scarves on their head that cover their beautiful hair. You would not see men and women chatting, casually touching, or flirting. In fact, you may not see men and women talking at all, unless they are relatives or married to each other.

On the surface, all of it appears to represent extreme sexual repression. Some feminists might say that it is a disempowering lifestyle for women—if not a form of modern gender-based slavery.

Don’t Judge a Book By Its Cover

What we don’t realize is that there are very good reasons for what you see in Orthodox neighborhoods. While we might believe those reasons involve keeping women as subservient creatures, we would be completely incorrect.

The behaviors that are observed in a typical Orthodox neighborhood are based in Jewish law. The Jewish laws behind these codes of conduct have been written for the purpose of ensuring the sacredness or marriage, protection of the family, and fidelity within marriage.

But, what we don’t realize until we start reading these laws in detail is that there is an even more compelling side-effect that most would never guess: when these laws are followed, they have the potential to create an extremely sensual marriage.

The Secret Is Out

Let’s take a look at some of the tips we can glean from a typical orthodox marriage.

The purpose of marriage within Judaism is to create the spiritual and material unity of body and soul. Also, within Judaism, G-d is considered to have both feminine and masculine aspects. A man gains access to the feminine aspects of G-d through marriage.

Indeed, a wife is regarded as a man’s home and he cannot be “home” or have access to the feminine aspects of G-d until he is married. So, without being married, a Jewish man cannot wholly know G-d or receive his blessings. Thus, an unmarried man within Orthodox Judaism is something that is frowned upon.

After a man marries, it is his duty to provide his wife with three essential things:

“A husband is responsible for providing his wife with food, clothing, and sexual relations. Marital sexual relations are the woman’s right, not the man’s.” Source: (www.jewfaq.org)

Say what?

Yes, you read that correctly: a sexual relationship is one of the three basic rights of the wife, not the husband! I had only learned about that two years ago and I have to admit that I was shocked. After all, if we consider mainstream society in the United States, it would seem that sexual relationships are the right of the man, and not his wife.

In addition, women are not viewed as important simply because they can procreate. Women are important, first and foremost, for companionship for men since it is said that men cannot exist or be happy without wives by their side.

After women marry, even in antiquity, women retained all the property they owned prior to marrying as their own. Also, within Jewish tradition, a man has never been permitted to strike or physically harm his wife in any way. Within Jewish culture, even centuries ago, women have not been considered the property of their husbands or as inferior in any way to their husbands.

Ketubah signing

Typical Ketubah signing ceremony with close relatives and a Rabbi paying witness.

Dress Codes

Married women are required by the Talmud to cover their hair. Most women cover their hair with either a scarf –or- a wig and a hat. All women within the Orthodox community are required to dress incredibly modestly and never to draw attention to their physical appearance.

This serves dual roles: it prevents the eyes and minds of men from straying and thinking ‘adulterous’ thoughts, but it also makes the marital relationship even more special. Thus, it is the husband who has the great gift of beholding his wife’s naked body and her beautiful hair.

Her husband becomes the only man in the world who receives the gift of knowing her intimately in all ways. This profoundly increases the intimacy between a married couple. Plus, it allows a husband to more easily keep his gaze on his wife.

Keeping the gaze on your spouse is also an important aspect of marriage within Judaism. Some rabbis interpret the commandment “thou shalt not commit adultery” to prohibit both physical and mental sexual involvement with a person other than one’s spouse. Thus, if someone engages in detailed sexual fantasies about someone other than their spouse, it is considered adultery.

Is There A Psychological Benefit to Limiting the Gaze?

Yes!! From a purely psychological standpoint, sexual fantasies about someone are processed as if we are physically having sex with that person. Here is why: our brains possess neurons, frequently termed mirror neurons, which contribute to us processing empathy.

In addition to allowing us to process empathy, these neurons also have an interesting facet; that is, when we see an event, mirror neurons process the event as if it were actually happening to us. So, when we sexually fantasize about another, our brains can process the experience as having occurred (even though it did not).

Thus, our mind already believes it has been unfaithful and it takes little time for the body to follow. In that respect, limiting the gaze contributes to fidelity.

Code of Conduct Between Men and Women

In the orthodox community, men and women sit in different areas of the synagogue. But, this flows through into all interactions. Men and women do not ‘befriend’ each other. Men and women who are not married do not spend time alone together unless they are relatives. Most importantly, men and women do not touch each other, even in social settings.

For example, even today, you may not see men and women shake hands upon introduction. You will not see casual touching between men and women who are not married.

Rabbis have pointed out for millennia that any kind of touching can plant the seed for sexual feelings. This thinking even applies to a simple handshake. Therefore, touching is reserved solely for one’s spouse. But, even more than that, a couple is highly encouraged to touch often and also make love frequently.

From a purely psychological standpoint, the guidelines against touching make sense. Any time we touch another person oxytocin is released. Oxytocin creates bonds between two people, generates trust, and establishes a false sense of familiarity. (This is why we can observe politicians and salesmen shaking hands frequently).

Since Judaism’s goal is to maintain the sacred and incredibly unique bond between husband and wife, prohibiting touching makes sense. Also, since each member of the couple is not getting their ‘touching quota’ met by others during the day, they are less likely to become desensitized to touch. Thus, touch between husband and wife maintains a high erotic charge.

Hassidic Ceremony

Hassidic Ceremony

In Summary

Personally, I believe that these particular guidelines that are followed in Orthodox Judaism could benefit marriage for several reasons:

First off, if there is no casual touch and flirting between those of the opposite sex, this is one less avenue through which a budding affair can enter. In addition, there is no ‘touch overload’ for either person in the couple. Finally, touch remains something very special since it cannot be gotten from just anyone.

Secondly, since women cover themselves, there is no visual overload for men. Did you know that a study in the U.S. recently confirmed that after men viewed pictures of beautiful actresses and models that their reported satisfaction with their own partners greatly diminished? Ouch! Thus, if all women were to dress modestly in order not to provoke sexual attention, it could be inferred that men’s desire for their own partners will not drop because of visual cues.

Thirdly, the idea that men and women do not engage in opposite-sex friendships fares wonderfully for marriage. It’s no secret that many affairs are a result of a friendship taken too far. After my husband and I got engaged, we also realized this risk and agreed not to make friends with those of the opposite sex—even at work. After all, our workplace is the number one place where affairs begin.

Lastly, the idea that a sexual relationship is a woman’s right, rather than a man’s, also fares well for marriage. I believe this is the case because it creates a respectful view toward a wife in that her husband is there to serve her, and not vice versa. How many men blame their affairs on the fact that their wives did not provide them with enough action in the bedroom (which the man believes is his right)? We all know the answer to that—a lot of men do. Thus, putting the sexual relationship within marriage as the ‘right of the wife’ puts power in the hands of the wife by catering to her sexual needs first. It is also a viewpoint that promotes fidelity since, in theory; a husband will be concerned about meeting his wife’s needs and not those of other women.

Therefore, I think these key points within Orthodox Judaism have something to offer the rest of us in terms of maintaining more faithful and more sensually charged marriages.

 

 

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176 Responses to Principles That Ensure a Harmonious, Sensual, and Faithful Marriage

  1. battleborn May 2, 2014 at 8:47 am #

    Interesting article Sarah P.

    Between 1991-2004, the General Social Survey did research amongst religious groups regarding infidelity. It is an interesting article in that they found our religious beliefs do have somewhat of an effect on whether or not we have affairs. It encompassed different religions, their beliefs, and the extent to which the people have immersed themselves into their religion.

    Still I believe that regardless how religious one proclaims to be, the one and only reason the CS have affairs is their moral fortitude. Whether one believes in a higher being is not the determining factor for an affair… it is purely a man-made decision.

    Your article gives someone food for thought.

  2. Sarah P. May 2, 2014 at 8:01 pm #

    Battleborn,
    Did not realize there was a recent study done on fidelity in relation to religious beliefs. What did they find out overall? Did any belief systems fare well over others? I agree that an affair is a matter of a value system and morality. Personally, I don’t believe that believing in a higher power affects whether or not a person has an affair. I believe that most religions point people in the direction of morality, but it all comes down to what the person chooses to do. I believe that if people were to follow some of these behavioral guidlines that Orthodoxy follows, that there would perhaps be less temptation. They are helpful at heading up temptation and also removing the opportunities to cheat. But it all comes down to the idea that these things could help simply because they are helpful in prevention– not because they come under the title of a religion. I have witnessed far too many “religious” folks turning their backs on the very standards that they hold others to and that is always disappointing. My biggest pet peeve is hypocrisy.
    Thanks for reading 🙂

    • Saw the Light (formerly Roller Coaster Rider) May 3, 2014 at 9:43 am #

      I would say that not just religion but an actual, living relationship with God helps in any issue regarding morality. Hypocrisy is one of the most damaging things, and if one reads any of the Gospel accounts, it doesn’t take long to see Jesus (the One who loves and restores sinners) absolutely laying into the religious leaders and rulers who were so careful about the letter of the law and so far from God in their hearts. So, Battleborn and Sarah P, it does come down to choice. But the reality in my experience is that we are all human and we all fall short in many ways. Turning from the poor choice, actually owning it, and how we respond to being sinned against…these are things each of us must learn how to do in life. I’ve done some pretty disappointing things in my life, and felt extremely conflicted about my actions. The only thing that has kept me away from a path of self-destruction has been the knowledge that I am loved, and that in turning away from what I was doing that was wrong, I could be forgiven and restored. In Judaism as well as in Christianity, the marriage relationship was always intended to be a picture of God’s love for us. The Jews were God’s particulary chosen people (some Bible translations use the words “His peculiar people”) and in Christ, God shows His love for the whole world. The imagery in much of the writing of the prophets reflects God’s sorrow over His bride’s infidelity. So, while this article focuses on what is necessarily very practical and earthly in protecting the two who have joined their lives in the covenant of marriage, there is the spiritual side as well, and this for me is what really comes up in any consideration of a sexual relationship. It is sacred, and for that reason (in my opinion based on much research and my own long life experiences) is under constant attack from both within and without. Every one of us, whether or not we believe in an omnipotent Creator, is accountable and these choices we make have incredible, eternal significance.

      • Sarah P. May 3, 2014 at 3:58 pm #

        Hello Saw The Light,
        Love what you have to say on this topic! I am 100% in agreement with your assessment of this topic, which was very eloquently written.

        When you said, “Every one of us, whether or not we believe in an omnipotent Creator, is accountable and these choices we make have incredible, eternal significance”; this is the essence of what it comes down to. In fact, people do not get off the hook in terms of accountability when they are atheists.

        An atheist I worked with said something curious one time: “I don’t believe in God so I do not have to follow his rules.” That always cracked me up. Because whether or not we believe in a higher power or not, bad actions take care of themselves through reaping bad results. Some call it ‘you reap what you sew’; others call it ‘karma’. I think there are rules that govern the universe regardless of people’s spiritual belief. We can see examples time and again where if people do harm, thinking that because they do not believe in God they are off the hook, it ultimately catches up with them in surprising ways.

    • Battleborn May 3, 2014 at 2:36 pm #

      Sarah, I don’t think one fairs better than the other although they did say that the more involved in the church teachings the more the likelihood an affair would never happen. Just my observation – bull hockey! How many times do we hear of a prestigious preacher/priest confessing to an affair as they admonish the rest of us of our sins? It is time for those who profess to preach the word of their religion get off their high horse and realize they are human and humans sin.

      What is your opinion on a priest or preacher who has never been married doing marriage counseling? Seems sort of inadequate to me…

      • Sarah P. May 3, 2014 at 3:17 pm #

        What is my opinion on a preacher or priest who has never been married doing marriage counseling?

        Well, I absolutely have an opinion; but, I will tell you more about my own religious views to put my opinion in perspective. That way you can decide if my opinion carries any weight for you whatsoever.

        Since my dad is of Norwegian and Scottish stock, I was raised in Protestant Christianity. My mom chose Christianity as her religion prior to meeting my dad. I would consider myself spiritual since I spend time daily in prayer and do believe in the one God of Judeo-Christian thought. I also believe that without God, I am nothing.

        There are things about Judaism that I feel pulled towards and I like some of the beliefs about God as stated in Jewish Kabbalah (not the new-age stuff that Madonna allegedly practices). I also like some Buddhist teachings. There are things that I admire about Hinduism after spending time in India. Right now, if pressed, I guess I would label myself a Christian (or possibly a Messianic Jew; that’s a Jew for Jesus) since that is what I am most comfortable with from a holistic perspective. But, I do not consider myself “religious”. To me, spirituality is a practice of actively seeking to grow spiritually, to know more about God, and to express the qualities that Jesus and Buddha both described. I hesitate to call myself religious because I believe it is different than spirituality. Religious is more about being part of an organized religion and following whatever traditions the religion prescribes. I like what Wayne Dyer says in a nutshell: instead of being Christian, endeavor to be Christ-like; instead of being a Buddhist, endeavor to live your life as the Buddha lived his. To me, it all comes down to letting God do his work in me while attempting to put my own ego or will aside as best as I can. (Now, that is sometimes a struggle!!)

        So now onto the answer to the question: if a priest or pastor has not been married, I do not believe that person is going to be an effective marriage counselor. To me, it is like having a person who has never been a parent giving parenting advice. That person might know what is correct in theory but will not be able to understand and work through the subtle nuances that each relationship requires.

        If someone is a Christian or a Jew or subscribes to any other belief system and wants to incorporate that in marriage counseling, I would look for a licensed counselor who also advertised himself as a Christian, a Jew, or a member of another belief system that people might seek. On the other hand, Rabbis might be okay to see as marriage counselors for Jews because pretty much all of them are married and have many children. They know what it is like in the day to day. Then, there are Christian pastors who are married as well and who might be able to provide really effective counseling.

        I really like what Dr. James Dobson from Focus on the Family has to say in most of his books. In fact, he has surprised me many times in a good way. For example, he has a book about infidelity geared toward women who have been betrayed. He says with 100% surety that a woman who has been betrayed by her spouse needs to leave the marriage since her husband broke the sacred bond. He does not mince words or talk around the subject. I think that was the opinion that most surprised me since we are mostly told as Christians to forgive and to work it out. I have many Christian female friends who are the betrayed spouse and the idea of leaving the marriage is agonizing because they truly believe this is a sin against God.

        Oh and as for the priest or preacher who has an affair while admonishing the rest of us for our sins, I would tell that person to step down from the pulpit or take off the collar. There is nothing more irritating and that type of self-righteousness and hypocrisy. I do not believe God gives them a “get out of jail free” card just because they have put on the yolk of ministry. I think Jesus might have felt the same way. He did not overturn the money-changing tables in the temple, in a fit of rage against spiritual hypocrisy, for no reason.

  3. Tryinghard May 3, 2014 at 6:29 am #

    Sarah

    What an interesting take on a fascinating culture. Interestingly when I thought I would be divorcing my husband I would look for a nice Jewish man:). The Jewish men I knew where always so respectful of their wives and family. Of course I knew it would have been pretty unlikely I would find one since I am not Jewish! I’ve worked with Jewish men and they were always beyond reproach in that environment.

    I think the reason for the traditions was to keep the clan strong. Historically Jewish people were persecuted and they could not afford to have inter-clan discord. Goes to prove having strict boundaries is good for society as a whole.

    Thank you for this thought and thought provoking article.

    • Sarah P. May 3, 2014 at 3:51 pm #

      Hi TryingHard,

      I agree with you about Jewish men and that has been my experience. I am going to say something that some might take as offensive, so I apologize for this. (As they say, never talk about politics or religion, but here goes!!)

      When I have done an inventory evaluating the men I dated prior to meeting my husband, I see a pattern. Here it is:
      -First boyfriend who I met in college. He was a Lutheran who went to church on Sunday mornings and wrote his grandmother letters every Sunday afternoon. He ended up cheating on me with 5 different women over the course of our 1 year relationship. He only confessed it to me when he happened to pick up an STD. He was ‘kind’ enough to tell me since he at least knew it would have been a terrible thing to pass it along. And he did not pass it along, so that was one thing in his favor. I promptly broke up with him and to this day I do not think he understands why.
      -Second serious boyfriend. He was raised a Presbyterian but had become an atheist. He did not cheat because he considered it morally reprehensible. He was an extremely dedicated boyfriend. We broke up because we were in our early 20’s and I went to live overseas for several years.
      -Fiance whom I dated for several years prior to becoming engaged to him. He was raised a Southern Baptist. Called his “mommy” every day from work to tell her how much he “looooved her” while all his colleagues were within earshot, snickering. Went to church with his parents anytime he went home. As some of you know, this guy cheated on me right under my nose but I did not know it. When he broke up with me, without giving a reason and refusing to talk about why, I was shattered and could not understand what had happened. I had to find out through the grapevine it was because he had been cheating and she gave him an ultimatum– and so he broke up without telling me why. Several months later, he tried to come back when realizing the grass was not greener. He still would not admit what happened and tried to play it off as just needing space. I did not take him back and had begun dating my husband by that time.
      -My husband– ethnically Jewish but was not raised within the Jewish religion. His parents are atheists but celebrate some Jewish holidays. But he believes in God and is establishing his own relationship with God without going to a synagogue. He believes it is morally reprehensible to cheat and believes it is not forgivable. He also believes in the humanistic belief that you are only as good as your behavior. He believes there are good atheists and there are terrible Christians/Jews/Muslims/Buddhists etc. He believes that religion has nothing to do with goodness and that the only way to have a good life is to live according to the golden rule. His motto is: “Do not do to others that which is hateful in your own eyes”. He is a very dedicated father and behaves in ways that indicates he is all about our kids.

      I have seen this attitude mirrored in many Jewish men, not just him. Of course, there are bad ones too! I think there is a lot of pressure on Jews to identify both culturally and religiously with their tribe and perhaps that partially explains the good behavior.

      But I am reflecting on my own experience. It does not have anything to do with the rest of the population. Still, a part of me has always found it ironic that the men who had the label that is associated with goodness are the ones who have done the worst sinning and who were unrepentant. Then, the ones who were more humanistic in their belief systems were the ones that behaved based on strict ethical codes.

      I am not trying to tear down Christians here. Most Christians I know are wonderful people who are faithful to the word of God. I still go to church on occasion with my own parents.

      But what all of this tells me is that people can subscribe to religion, they can go to church, they can shout prayers at the top of their lungs; BUT, it has nothing to do with whether or not they will cheat since it is ultimately a choice they either make or refuse. As they say, God gave us all free will and many religious people freely disobey the 10 commandments when it suits them. That does not reflect badly on religion, but on the individual who makes those choices.

      • Tryinghard May 4, 2014 at 10:26 am #

        Sarah

        I don’t take anything you said offensively. I believe there is something to be said for cultural norms sustaining or demolishing societies. Not only with regards to marriage, but work, families, and personal moral boundaries. I’m not saying one religion is better that the other because I believe religion is like farts, everyone else’s stinks but your own! I am not religious either, I am spiritual and I find wisdom and solace in many different religious doctrine as well. And I too subscribe to your husbands theory, do unto others as YOU would have others do unto you or the negative as your husband so eloquently puts it:). If all lived by that adage imagine what kind of a world would being living in!

        • Sarah P. May 5, 2014 at 8:07 pm #

          Hello Trying,

          Amen! If everyone followed the golden rule, what a wonderful society it would be.

          But then again, I guess if some of those people in society are masochists and then they follow the golden rule, there would be a whole lot of hurting going on. Or hey, maybe that’s why society is messed up– because all the masochists are harming others the way they themselves want to be harmed! (Kidding!)

  4. Gizfield May 3, 2014 at 10:04 am #

    That was beautiful, Saw the Light. There is a book I want to read called The Butterfly Effect by Andy Andrews (I think). Anyway the premise is to show what would happen if people saw every action in their life as equally important. I can see that cause like in the example of Cheaters, they don’t see what they do “now” or as an afterthought, or whatever as having an effect on themselves and others FOREVER but it does. There are no Do Overs in real life. No action can ever be undone, it’s out there in the universe for eternity.

    • Sarah P. May 3, 2014 at 4:03 pm #

      Hey Gizfield,
      Let us know what you think of The Butterfly Effect. Have you read The Noticer by the same author? Has anyone else read any of these? I love The Noticer!

  5. Gizfield May 3, 2014 at 5:24 pm #

    No, Sarah P., the only Andy Andrews I have read was The Traveler’s Gift, which I loved!! It was a $2.99 Kindle special one day. A little reminiscent of 5 People You Meet in Heaven and also the movie It’s a Wonderful Life. About your effect on your fellow humans, even WHEN YOU DONT KNOW IT. I read Traveler’s Gift in one sitting. I want to read his others but they’ re not cheap, lol.

    I meant to tell you I read Emotional Vampires a year or two ago and thought it was great. So entertaining with the examples. “Vampire Margaret walks into Jennifer’s office…” They were very helpful in understanding the psychological principles in a fun way.

  6. Sarah P. May 3, 2014 at 5:52 pm #

    Hi Gizfield,
    Thanks for the book tip! Will need to check that one out too. Sounds very inspiring!

    Glad you liked Emotional Vampires. His writing style is so entertaining. Laughed out loud several times!

  7. Gizfield May 3, 2014 at 8:25 pm #

    I enjoyed the article, Sarah P. Meant to tell you earlier, but I had to drive somewhere, as usual, lol. I dont really know any Jewish people here in Tennessee. I did date a Jewish guy that was a friend of my roommate for a short while when I was 18 or so. I didnt notice anything “different” about him but it was a long time ago.

    I agree, women and men, especially married ones, have gotten waaaay too familiar with each other. It makes it extremely easy for these road whores to infiltrate your relationship and also nearly impossible to get rid of them. If you say anything you are “jealous, insecure, a prude”, etc. My husband plays music in clubs, and I didnt go for a few years due to having my baby and still dont go often. Going back I was shocked at how “gropey” these people are. Huggy, huggy, kissy, kissy, like these people are your best friend you haven’t seen in years. I honestly think this and the whorish behavior of the other band members and patrons were a horrible example and contributed to my husband’s decision to cheat. So much questionable behavior goes on in these places.

    I read a book by Mort Fertel called Marriage Fitness (I think) that had guidelines very similar to these. No touching, hugging, calling, texting, etc. I agree to a point. But I still think you can be around the opposite sex without perving out. I’m pretty friendly with the guy behind me at work, and the girl in front of me too, but it’s kind of a family type thing. Nothing remotely sexual or romantic. He has a girlfriend so I’d definitely be disgusted if he ever hit on me, even if I weren’t married. I would certainly lose respect for him. As I’m sure he would feel the same toward me if I made advances toward him. That is the normal reaction to inappropriate attention, NOT to be flattered by it.

    • Tryinghard May 3, 2014 at 10:01 pm #

      Giz

      I have worked in many environments both corporate and small business. I’ve also owned a retail store and currently am working I. My husbands business where our sons and husband work. I have to say I have NEVER been remotely attracted in the remotest sexual possibility. I have never been harassed in the work place and I believe it’s because I exude an air if disinterest. I’ve joked and enjoyed my male co workers but that was it. Now I’m as human as the next person. I’ve had ups and downs in my personal life and why is it I’ve never succumbed to office romances???? I guess it’s my air and my own personal boundaries. I’ve had salesmen and bosses who have been very friendly but I never gave them the idea that they ever had a chance with me. Must have been very frustrating for them. Given how much people like to eff around on the job and workplace I was never interested. So I just don’t get how people sit in the place they eat. I needed those jobs. I knew if there were any hanky lanky I’d be the one tossed put on their ear. I guess I was not one to humiliate herself. It just wasn’t worth it to me.

      To the end, last night we went to our country club for dinner. Don’t be impressed, it’s not a “real” country club and there isn’t anyone more important there than ME! Seriously I live in a small town and it’s a golf club. My H like golf and we live right on the course. I hate the club. I hate golf but my H likes it so we belong. Well after DDay I called and took my name off everything at the. Club. My H put our membership on hold. Well he decided to rejoin this year. UGH, it’s just not my thing but if it’s his I don’t care. Well damn we go up there and all these pretentious effects are just so damn happy to see we are members again and all the hugging and kissing started the minute we walked in. I don’t like being touched by these pretentious, spray on hair guys I don’t care if they are happy to see me cause I sure don’t give a crap about seeing them but I just could not escape all the “hugs”

      What they don’t know is I’m not the same person I was when we were members 3 years ago and I really don’t want them touching me. How the hell to you escape someone when they are coming at you full frontal hug??? Kiskis kiss hug hug, get the eff away from me!!!

      Sorry for the rant and ugh 3 weeks till I get to see my shrink……

      • Sarah P. May 5, 2014 at 8:19 pm #

        Trying,

        Wow, I would get the heck out of the golf club. I am very friendly and love chatting with folks. But, when it comes to men (other than my husband, sons, or family members) touching me, I avoid it at all costs. It feels so wrong and I just squirm. I am not into this culture of full frontal hugs either. I cannot tell you how many times, when my H and I were first married, a female colleague at a gathering would come up to him and do a full frontal hug. Only, it didn’t end there. She would be good and sure to rub her boobs up and down from his shoulder to belt buckle– or at least she would try. Believe it or not, it was apparent that he would get embarrassed by this, not flattered. My H does not like being touched by strangers either and is not someone who so casually touches or hugs others. He and I are the same in that we reserve all touching for each other and for our kids. We love affection, just not with others.

        • Strengthrequired May 5, 2014 at 8:27 pm #

          My goodness Sarah, wth, wh does that? Certainly not a descent person. I had the image in my head and wanted to be sick. I am sure my h would have been embarrassed too, my h isn’t into people being all touchy feely, or into hugging anyone. That woman was just desperate.

          • Sarah P. May 6, 2014 at 12:04 am #

            Strength,

            Unfortunately, the woman who did that was, believe it or not, a female medical resident in family practice medicine. She was married to a good looking doctor who had moved out of state and was waiting for her to transfer jobs. She was from Germany and a youngish blond. I would write that off as her culture, but I lived in Europe for 3 years during university. Germans were rather reserved and not physically demonstrative. She, however, did not inherit the traditional German dignity and stoicism. (Obviously not). I also believe she married her American husband for a green card, but that is another story. As I found out long ago, it does not matter if someone in an M.D., a corporate executive, a president of a university, or anyone else of a “higher station” where one would expect more of that person, at least for appearance’s sake. Some of the most sexually predatory women I have met work either in the medical profession or management positions in information technology. Weird huh?

    • Sarah P. May 5, 2014 at 8:13 pm #

      Gizfield,

      There is certainly a balance and it sounds like you have found it. When I worked in the corporate world full time, I worked around guys all day long. I was friendly with them and nice but had physical boundaries such as no touching. The fact is, we live in a society where men and women work together all day long and it’s how it is. But the familiarity has just gone too far and that is what bugs me to no end. (Basically the kissy kissy, huggy huggy stuff you are describing).

  8. Gizfield May 3, 2014 at 11:35 pm #

    Oh, Trying, I feel so bad for you to have to go through that. And I completely understand. I think I’m getting a reputation as being “standoffish” and I can’t bring myself to care. I’m not a cold fish or anything and am very affectionate physically with my husband and daughter. Just never been a big Hugger with casual acquaintances..

    It doesn’t help that these bar folks are so shallow and two faced, and that one of them flat lied about my husband’s gf moving back from California. Or that it was in a bar that my H’s hagzilla plastered her nasty ass all over him right in front of me the very first time I ever met her . Talk about overkill.

    I also had a problem with my brother’s friends when I was hanging around with him before I met the hubs. These people were just groping around on me, ie, hugging excessively, kissy, kissy and I just got so tired of it. I was getting a really lechy feeling off some of these people so I just shut it down. Say hello, how are you? Then move along, little doggie, lol.

    • Sarah P. May 5, 2014 at 8:26 pm #

      Giz,

      I have a stand-offish reputation too– but the *only* people who imply I am stand-offish are the ones who have an agenda. Either they are the women trying to rub themselves all over my husband; or they are men who are trying to flirt with me in outrageous ways. People who are genuine and who do not have an ulterior motive do not say that about me. It might be that those who perceive you as stand-offish either have an ulterior motive or they have no standards for what it means to behave civilly and with dignity.

      Dignity + civility means kindness, sincerity, genuine interest in others, good manners.
      That is what it means to me when I say I am being “social”.

      But, some folks thing being “social” means rubbing up and grinding against everyone at the gathering. For those folks, anyone who follows my own definition of ‘social’ will think that I am aloof.

      • Sarah P. May 5, 2014 at 8:27 pm #

        Rather, anyone who subscribes to the ‘rubbing’ version of what it means to be social will think my own definition of social equals aloofness.

  9. Gizfield May 3, 2014 at 11:38 pm #

    Oh, and we haven’t even gotten into the “dancing ” that goes on in these places, lol. It’s just incredible what people will do IN PUBLIC, much less in private.

  10. Gizfield May 3, 2014 at 11:52 pm #

    Speak of the Devil (and he appears, for those who arent familiar with that old saying) , one of my brother’s friends, who friended me and I’m not even sure who he is, just made a creepy sexual comment on a John Wayne photo and quote I posted on facebook. Eeew. He also did that last week. One more strike and he is out. Friend of brother, or not. I have kids and former pastors, and elderly relatives on there. Not cool.

  11. Tryinghard May 5, 2014 at 9:12 pm #

    Sarah

    Trust me if I could I would. My H loves golf. It was great when the kids were little. They had a pool, golf course, tennis and a lake that kept them very entertained all summer. It’s become old and tedious to me. This is the standard greeting there. I’ve learned to step back and offer a cheek. Only the truly brash come at me full frontal and short if running for the hills I will arch my back away and make sure all they can get is my cheek. Heck I’m french and supposedly we are all amorous and friendly but I’ve never had any french person approach me like these mid west clods do. I can put off a good air of aloofness when I need to and I do. I do t care what they think.

    • Sarah P. May 6, 2014 at 12:15 am #

      TryingHard,

      C’est vrai que tu es francaise? Pour ma part, j’ai habite en France pendant deux ans. Ce matin j’etais heureuse parce que j’ai trouve un restaurant manger des crepes aux noix de coco et Nutella.

      Ok, my French in rusty. So, if you are living in the MidWest and you are French, that has got to be REALLY DIFFICULT. Spent some time in Indiana and that was hard. I am used to either living in the Southern United States or the NorthWest. Love both areas, though probably prefer the South. 🙂

      Don’t worry about offending the golf course crowd. They should be ashamed of themselves for approaching you in such a brash way. They are fools if they cannot even realize that people need to be careful anytime approaching someone of another culture in person since ‘personal space’ is measured differently from culture to culture.

      • tryinghard May 6, 2014 at 5:12 pm #

        Sarah

        Actuellment je suis demi francaise. Ma mere etait Francaise and mon Pere American. J’ai vecu on France 6 ans quand j’etait petite. J’ai famille en France.

        I was raised culturally French which is NOT Anglo Saxon, it’s Latin. That being said my mother had some very strict rules about how women were to comport themselves. I remember her teaching me as a teen that men would always try that full frontal hug and she taught me how to turn my shoulder to avoid it but still be a lady and offer the cheek. My parents had the most loving and dedicated relationship. They both adored and respected each other.

        One thing for sure is I wouldn’t touch a French man with a 10′ pole!!! I’d sooner be celibate. Call me biased, racist whatever they are the worst!

      • tryinghard May 6, 2014 at 5:13 pm #

        BTW Sarah I think your French is Tres Bien!!!

        • Sarah P. May 7, 2014 at 1:39 am #

          Hello Trying,

          Still, half French is still French to me! After all, you were enculturated the French way.

          I know what you mean in terms of the strict way in which women comport themselves.

          My mom’s side is composed of a lot of French Jews who emigrated to America. But, they spoke French and considered themselves French first in terms of their culture. I did not go to France for the first time until I was 20; but, I ended up living there between 1992 through 1997. One year at a French university, then home, then back to France for a summer, then to England for my a year, then back to France for another year and a half. Then more summers in France. But I have not been back since summer 2001. My fiance, the guy who cheated on me, was an American who was fluent in French. He also lived there during the years I did. I went back with him, while engaged, to a good friend’s wedding in Paris. I hate to say it, but because we broke up 6 months after that and on bad terms, I just have not been back.

          Have noticed so many Americans are anti-French. Or at least I have met them. It is such a bizarre attitude since I would say 99.9% of the people who hate France have not even been there.

          I will freely admit that I was enculturated in France by choice. Once I stepped off that plane, saw the way they dressed (with class), the way they enjoyed life, the way they read books and were cultured, the way they ate, and everything else, I was hooked.

          I became that way too and am that way to this day.

  12. Strengthrequired May 5, 2014 at 10:09 pm #

    Th, I used to always worry what people thought of me, used to always be kind and caring, and thoughtful of others. You know something, I’m not like that anymore, after trying to be good to everyone, and still not being accepted by those that I felt counted, such as my h family, I just don’t care what they think anymore. I know I’m a good person, and if they want to be the way they are, then that’s their problem. Yet they don’t get the chance to walk over me again, and you know something, I’m glad I told the ow exactly what I thought of her, I’m glad she was scared of me, when she would see me fade to face with her, as my h told me, she shook in her boots, and yes she held her head down like the piece of rubbish she is. Now she can see me with my head held high, while she still feeds from the bottom.
    I’m over trying to have respect from this family, because now I see, they don’t respect anyone, they will even disrespect themselves to move ahead in life, so that is just sad. Yet there comes a time, where you have to be ahead of everyone else, and I think that is me now, come first…. To be honest, what they think now is of no consequence, because I know the truth.

  13. Sarah P. May 6, 2014 at 12:37 am #

    Strength,

    Did you actually confront the other woman to her face or was it via email? If you did meet face to face, good for you! Would have loved to have a front row seat to that one.

    A part of me always regretted not confronting the woman who got between me and my ex-fiance. No, I do not want him back. I just wanted to give her a zinger to her face. Of course, in reality, I would be too shy to do that, but I wish I were more gregarious.

    So when you confronted her, how did she react besides shaking in her boots?

    • Strengthrequired May 6, 2014 at 4:26 am #

      Definitely did see her face to face, actually the first time a saw her after the ea came out, it was after my h returned back home to us, saying he chose us. Of course I found her at our place of business while her kids sat in the car waiting for her. Ohhh how I look back now that day, and instead of saying to my h what that thing was doing here, I should have kissed him in front of her, and also should have said a few words more fitting to the situation, but to be honest, I saw red, and was just annoyed that, it was the second dday, that I had to face. She sat there and was so surprised that I caught her there, that she picked up her phone and just held her head low.
      Of course I was not impressed with how my h reacted, when I found her there, it actually should have been my cue to leave then and there. Yet I didn’t, sometimes hindsight is different after the moment. Just like the day, I caught them at the park together a few months later. Now that day, well a lot more things were said to the skank, only this time she was more smug, and thought that she was actually what my h wanted. Actually after a while, after all the ddays, tbh lost count of how many, I actually started to believe that he really did want her.
      The park time, was a time I came so close to leaving, my h actually left her at the park crying, after I told him in front of onlookers that he can have his s””t, that they deserve each other, and that they were nothing but dirty f cousins.
      A few months after that, after her mother dearest came to town, she decided to change her name to ours, as a dig at me.
      I still feel sick after reading an text msg she had sent my h early on saying that he was to enjoy his wedding anniversary, and that she will no longer contact him, because of his broken promises, blah blah blah, and also that she knows the truth that he really does want her, and she understands that he is only home for the sake of the kids, she does know where his heart lies, and that it was with her.
      Well so much for staying away, she was back crying to him on the phone, the same day and everyday after, for a long time.
      So I made sure she knew exactly what I thought of her, and also let her know what my h told me about her, and they weren’t complimentary either, I was hoping she would see that if he really wanted her, her wouldn’t be telling me things, that he didn’t like about her.
      She never once responded to me, yet kept her contact going with my h. I actually think she thought she had won the lottery when I moved away.

  14. Sarah P. May 6, 2014 at 4:20 pm #

    Strength,

    Let me get this straight though. Your husband moved away with you, right? Because I would not leave him on his own in a city with her and without you. Hopefully he is living with you in the new city. (Think you have said he was living with you many posts ago, but just clarifying).

    Okay, I am going to take the gloves off here. (Now, of course, I am one who is good for talking but not so great at confronting when it comes down to it. Though, I am 100 times better than I used to be. I realize that being nice all the time (even to one’s own detriment) is not a healthy way to be.)

    So, with the gloves coming off, if I were you, I would have outed the cousin ‘it’ so her place of employment, to her social group (if they cared), to her church (if she HAD one, which I doubt), and to anyone else who might be sympathetic to your plight.

    Then, I would have written her letter about how deeply she must be mentally disturbed in order to continually pursue a man solely for the purpose of an incestuous relationship. (Sorry, but I am of the belief that first cousins who are blood relatives are as off limits as your own siblings, parents, aunts, uncles, etc).

    Then, I would verbally ‘knock some sense’ into your husband and tell him that it is not in his best interest, genetically or emotionally, to attempt to have had (in the past) a marriage with cousin ‘it’ since it is based on incest. (I mean, really??!!)

    To be honest, hearing about this is like something out of the Twilight Zone. Cousin It is truly and profoundly disturbed person. And when someone is so deeply disturbed, it touches all aspects of their lives.

    I think it is in you and your H’s best interest to get a restraining order and keep renewing it each time it expires. Extend the restraining order to cover both you, your H, and your children.

    If your H does not agree because he is afraid of angering the extended family, you need to knock some for ‘verbal’ sense into him again. And if the extended family should call, I would cut to the chase and say to whomever: “Oh, so YOU also support an incestuous relationship too?” If they try to mince words, tell them not to contact your family again and hang up.

    Yes, this is what I would do since cousin it is not your ‘run of the mill’ other woman. We are talking about an incestuous relationship here and all bets are off because of it. Plus, Cousin It is the type who refuses to give up. She is a dangerous person regarding your marriage and your wellbeing.

    Hope I didn’t offend you– was not intent!!

  15. Strengthrequired May 6, 2014 at 11:34 pm #

    Sarah, I am of the same belief too. Cousins are off limits.
    It disgusted me, and my h was never into that sort of thing. So she was very good at manipulating him.
    My h moved with me, but our business is still there, due to not being able to relocate it right now. So my h stays down there, yet we talk all the time. Yet it does bug me, and truly does set back my healing.
    As for the restraining order, i have to wait and see if she starts up again.
    I wanted so badly to tell her work, especially at the beginning of the ea, yet my h at the time told me that he would never forgive me if I did. So I didn’t, I was already so confused and heartbroken, I wanted my h so I didn’t.
    Sorry not well today..

  16. Sarah P. May 7, 2014 at 1:43 am #

    Hello Strength,

    I am so sorry about everything you are going through. I am so sorry the business is still in the other city. I do hope that he comes home on the weekends to be with the kids.

    We are all here for you, especially when you are not feeling well.

    You deserve to have your husband home, you deserve to be happy, and you deserve to be free of cousin it forever. I do not care of she is your husband’s cousin– she got between a sacred relationship, your marriage, and she has absolutely no rights.

  17. Strengthrequired May 7, 2014 at 4:01 am #

    Thankyou Sarah, in all honesty, I didn’t think at all my h would ever fall for a cousin, blew my mind when he did. Maybe she would have been easier to be rid of her, if she wasn’t. Yet those family ties made it harder.
    Yes my h comes home on Saturdays then leaves again Monday mornings. I find Mondays are the worst, I become a mess. At times I can’t take the distance much more, and it is a reminder of just how much our family changed due to the ea.
    Somedays I feel like I have had enough, and at those moments I find it easier to just leave.
    Only because I put too many images in my head, too many thoughts. Then I always stop and see my kids, how I just couldn’t take them from their dad. So I sit and wait for my family to be a family again, not this broken one I see each day.

    • Sarah P. May 7, 2014 at 11:25 pm #

      Hello Strength,

      Here are several questions:

      1. Would you consider moving back to where his is business located just so you could see him after work Monday through Friday?

      2. Does your h allow you to continually process your hurt and pain with him?

      What I mean is, when you are triggered by a thought or an external event, does your h allow you to tell him honestly about how you feel and how much pain you are going through?

      3. What about journaling?

      Before I started journaling, which just means me opening up a new word document and venting my heart out, I could not conceive how it could be helpful (even though it seems al therapists recommend it). Now when I feel like I am at my breaking point, due to whatever is happening in life, I open up and word document and type without censoring myself one bit. When I am finished getting it all out, I delete the document. I also do this exercise in the format of writing a letter to someone. eg. writing the letter to someone who hurt you, knowing you will never actually send it. Each time I do this, I am surprised how helpful it actually is. The weight of the problem is removed and I feel relief. In fact, I have started to do this more each time I feel like I am at an impasse with my own husband. (Our impasses are usually due to his parents intentionally trying to cause chaos and hurt or over a couple of difference in how to raise our kids).

      Strength, we are all rooting for you here, just as we are rooting for everyone here. Fortunately there are both genuine and ‘real’ people at the other side of the computer screen who care!

      • Strengthrequired May 8, 2014 at 1:39 am #

        Sarah, I have considered moving back, just so my h would be home everyday. I have had trouble trying to convince my middle children, they don’t want to go back, and deep down I don’t want to either, due to cousin it. They are worried she will cause more trouble.
        I brought this up with my h just a few days ago, he does not want to stay down where we were, he wants out of the area, he also likes the idea of being near water, instead of in the suburbs. He doesn’t want to lose that leisure when he is home. He does talk about brining the business up here, but I guess after along time of this drama, I would like to see things different now. Waiting just seems to be what is on the cards right now.
        My h does let me open up and talk to him about what worries me, etc, even if he didn’t I would still let him know, lol.
        As for journaling, I think I do a lot of that here, lol. Sometimes I write over and over, then just delete. It does help to get things off of my chest. I also do that on my ipad, or even when I go to do a message on my phone to my h, I write and write saying the things I feel and then delete.
        I do that quite often.
        I do Thankyou, for your support Sarah, it may seem strange that I stay in this marriage, not really knowing for sure whether my h is still with his it, but I guess I do it out of love for him, and for my children, not to give up on him just yet.

        • Sarah P. May 8, 2014 at 4:28 pm #

          Hi Strength,

          I realize your middle children do not want to go back to the place you used to live and I know you do not either. But, If I were you, I would seriously move back there, hire a part time nanny if you could, and work half days in his business. Cousin It should be the one who hangs her head and who moves.

          On the other hand, if you are near the water now, that would be difficult to leave. Water is so calming.

          I understand why you stay. You love him. You have 6 children. But, most of all, do not let that freak win. If you go, she wins. You do not want her to be the step mother of your kids or for her to be his wife. Because how sick is that?

          At family reunions they will be with their dad and how will he introduce her? He will have to say “Uh, this is my 1st cousin, er, my wife…. and they will be like, uhh this is my step-mom, uh my dad’s cousin…”

          That is messed up.

          Just because she is sick does not mean that she has any right to drag your children into her big ball of chaos.

          I would stay with him just out of principle of the matter. Because again, these stakes are higher than your typical other woman scenario.

          I remember how freaked out I was when my husband’s 1st cousin strongly came onto him a few summers ago. She did it in front of me, her own kids and her husband! My h thought she was drunk, which she was, and discounted it because of that. I put up a strict boundary even though he still cannot comprehend that a 1st cousin might have sexual intentions toward him. I just about threw up. Plus, research has shown that being drunk just lowers inhibitions and people do the things that they are capable of when they drink. They do not suddenly become new people– they just act on whatever it is they have been thinking about.

          So, tow the line and stand up to cousin it. I do not even know cousin it but I my hope is that the karma she has woven comes back and bites her in the butt– and fast!

          • Strengthrequired May 8, 2014 at 10:05 pm #

            Thankyou again Sarah, knowing how cousin it is, is one of my main reasons for not letting her near my children. So I fight, and in think I put up a good fight. To have someone like her raising my children, just felt terrible to me. Could you imagine the damage that would have caused them? I prefer them to see what is right, and what family morals and obligations really are, not what she would have shown them.
            Not having this ow get my children is what kept me going. Thankyou for helping me keep the faith and to keep doing what I’m doing.

  18. Rachel May 7, 2014 at 6:20 am #

    Strength,
    When those images come into your head, put up a stop sign. The biggest red STOP sign.
    Learned this from my therapist and it works!!!
    We are here for you.
    Good luck.

  19. Strengthrequired May 7, 2014 at 6:14 pm #

    Thankyou Rachel, I need to try the stop sign, I used to try and stop it in its tracks, by thinking something positive, it worked for a while until I lost focus.

  20. Tryinghard May 8, 2014 at 8:00 am #

    Wow Sarah you’ve been fortunate to have experienced so many different cultures when you were young. I’m sorry you stupid ex’s bad behavior was in France and that now your experience there is tainted:(. I hope you get to go back and make new experiences. France is such a beautiful country but of course I love Paris!

    It’s funny my H liked France but is not quite the Francophile I am but he took me to Paris in 2012 where we renewed our vows in the same church my parent married in 1945. It was wonderful. During the ceremony something really kind of cool happened. There was a man door adjacent to the small alter where we were standing with the priest. It was a very heavy door and as we walked up to the alter the door blew open. It wasn’t windy that day and the three of us looked at each other and I just know it was my parents spirit coming to join us.it was very nice and now I prefer celebrating that anniversary over the original.

    • Sarah P. May 8, 2014 at 4:35 pm #

      Hello Trying,

      My hope is that when our kids get old enough to stay with my parents for a couple of weeks, I am going to take my h on a short tour of France. He has never been and is excited at the prospect.

      What a very cool story about the renewal of your vows. I absolutely agree that this was your parents coming to witness the renewal!! How cool is that! I have had too many experiences like this regarding loved ones who already went into the great beyond. So, I absolutely believe these experiences are real. What a blessing and what reassurance to know they were there to share it.

      Has anyone seen the film that is out called “Heaven Is For Real”? That one is based on a true story and I 100% recommend it. I took my own h and kids and they loved it. It’s so beautiful and reassuring, showing us that our loved ones are beyond the veil, living in perfected bodies, happiness, and lovingly waiting our own arrival one day. It was a tear jerker but had an uplifting and happy message at the same time. Great film.

  21. Strengthrequired May 8, 2014 at 9:11 am #

    That’s really beautiful th. Sounds so very special, I would cherish that as well.
    Lately, I have been dreaming a lot of my dad, who passed away back in 2005. Maybe his way of letting me know he is there, or I’m just wishing he was. Either way it has been nice hearing his voice.

  22. tryinghard May 8, 2014 at 4:36 pm #

    Hey Strength
    That is a great idea from Sarah. Why don’t you go work in his business. He could probably use you help too and it would get you away from the children for a while.

    That’s what I did. My H never wanted me at his business and I really didn’t care to be but when I saw how reckless he was with the financial well being of the very company that has taken care of me and my family, I took my rightful place in the business. My name as owner is all over the place.

    I think you should move back closer to his work anyway. This can’t be healthy or easy on you or the kids. And in my world kids don’t really get a vote. They do as they are told!

    • Sarah P. May 9, 2014 at 12:03 am #

      Trying,

      Good thing you got involved in the business. I have come to the conclusion that if a husband owns a business, whatever it may be, it is best that the wife is fully involved and they do things as a team. Good that you have your name all over the paperwork. My husband is an employee and always has been, but if he were ever to open a business, I would work side by side with him 24/7.

  23. Strengthrequired May 8, 2014 at 6:33 pm #

    Th, you know my kids do as they are told, but I just feel bad for them, after uprooting them from our home to begin with, due to just needing to escape the chaos, that came into our lives. Yet my h wants us to all stay here for now, as he doesn’t want to live there either, he wants to get away, but he is not sure if he wants to stay where we are now, or move south.
    You know it’s crazy how your whole world as you know it, can get turned upside down and inside out with just a blink of an eye, just because of an ea.
    I do work for the business, just can’t work on the premises, just from home. Yet that is the whole idea once we move the business, I will be there.

  24. Sarah P. May 9, 2014 at 12:13 am #

    Strength,

    I read a book by Rabbi Schmuley Boteach one time about how to have a successful marriage and family. He said over and over again, if a marriage is to survive, the husband and the wife must put their relationship and their needs first. Now, he did not mean that people should go off and neglect their children. What he said was that. for example, parents should their own 401ks before college funds. Parents need to make time to grow their relationship– date nights and participating in other things that bring joy to their couplehood.

    I am thinking you might want to put your husband’s feet to the fire and tell him he now needs to make a choice as to where he will geographically settle his business for good. No more of he might want this or that. He needs to make a firm decision about geographical location and then you need to move there.

    The issue is, I do not trust cousin it or her family. Even if you can trust your husband, I am sure she will send family members to wear him down to attempt to open communication. During the week, he is not near his support system (you and his kids). So this concerns me and I just would not allow this to continue much longer. I think your kids will understand moving again. Here is why: would your kids really consider it an inconvenience to move if ultimately it strengthens their parent’s marriage?

    It is your right as a wife to take the bull by the horns and not allow any more “bull”. You have all the rights here because you are working from an intention that is good and unselfish– the intention of keeping a family together.

    Do your kids know about the emotional affair?

    How out in the open is the ea? They say that when a man cheats, it needs to be out in the open to everyone. Men do not like that, but it is the very thing that snaps them back to reality and forces them to take a look at the situation. It helps with healing too. Don’t ever be his keeper of secrets if you do not have to. You need protect yourself and your children. Do not protect him (or cousin it).

    • Strengthrequired May 9, 2014 at 12:59 am #

      Ohh and yes the children know of his ea, it was shoved in their face especially my older two by the ow and the photo she had of her and their dad.
      There was definitely no secret, these kids thought this cousin cared for them until she tried to break their family apart. So which is why I say, the middle ones are scared of her trying something else if we move back.
      Yet something has to change. Can’t stay like this.

  25. Strengthrequired May 9, 2014 at 12:54 am #

    ATM Sarah, we have both our properties up for sale, as the bank has been looking at taking them. So as we try and get out feet back on the ground financially, we sort of can’t make a decision on where to move just yet, without placing more financial burden onto my h and myself – (thanks cousin it for that). So it is somewhat hard, one or the other has to sell before we can choose where to reside. If the place we are currently living sells, then the other home may be where we decide to move back to. If the other sells first, then we still have to sell the one we are in so we can move to somewhere bigger.
    Yet I agree, about keeping the marriage together, living apart does not work, not at all, we have never been apart before this happened. Crazy, which is why I tell my h that we can’t continue like this.

  26. Strengthrequired May 9, 2014 at 6:58 am #

    You know as well Sarah what I am worried about, moving all the way back and all that anxiety hits me again, or I find out that it isn’t over with my h and it, which would mean I’m back at square one again, wanting to leave and to stay away.

  27. Sarah P. May 9, 2014 at 7:40 pm #

    Strength,

    Wow, I am really beginning to hate Cousin It. And I believe every word you say because I have seen this craziness from my H’s cousin, as I said before. She lives 1,000 miles away though and there she will stay.

    As for the anxiety about moving back, I see several things:

    a) If you move back there will be some anxiety, but…
    b) if you stay where you are, there will be anxiety because he is there 5 days a week

    However…

    There are some very effective ways to tackle anxiety. When I say this, I am thinking about ways that have been clinically proven to tackle anxiety.

    For instance, Rachel mentioned thought stopping. That is part of cognitive behavioral therapy and it works.

    The second thing that works is taking back your empowerment, despite what your H says. However, I wonder if your H tries to put roadblocks up to this end. For example, it would be an empowering act to tell EVERYONE cousin it works with what she is up to. But your H says he won’t forgive you if you do this. I am not sure your H has a say in this and if I were you, I would ask him point blank why he wants to protect “it” and why you are not allowed to act on things that will empower you.

    Third thing that works is claiming what is yours. If you go back, HOLD your head high. If “it” comes around, give her a verbal lashing that will send her running like a scolded dog. Make her feel the shame since we are back. But even more, make her feel the kind of anxiety that knots your stomach all because you are back.

    Here is another question- if you did tell everyone at her work, including HR, what exactly would your husband do that you fear? If my H said he could not forgive me for taking a stand, I do not believe his threat would prevent me from doing this. Now, if he said he would leave me if I did this, I would put him on the spot and tell him he needs to start putting his family first. He cannot do that while protecting ‘it’s” reputation.

    Is there perhaps something else going on here? I mean is there a bit of apprehension on your part in terms of standing up to him too much in fear that he might leave?

  28. Sarah P. May 9, 2014 at 7:46 pm #

    PS-
    The other thing I am seeing here is that your H does not necessarily want to face the natural consequences of his actions. One of the natural consequences is that ‘it’s’ behavior is outed to everyone. She needs to be hanging her head in shame so that she will back off.

    One more question- where is your support system through all of this? Is his extended family on your side? What do his parents think– do they know? (If you talked about this before, I apologize.) What about your parents? Are they reliable?

  29. Strengthrequired May 9, 2014 at 8:25 pm #

    Sarah, when my h told me not to say anything to her work, it was at the beginning of their ea. I don’t say much to my family, have really started to exclude myself from a lot of things. I like where i am now, because I don’t need to face the triggers that I face when down home.
    To be honest, If I move back there I will be having a nice conversation with my h beforehand. As I need to know we are protected, and his skank is definitely out of his life, otherwise I will not move back, because if I found out after I moved, I will nolonger respect my h, I will have nothing left to give, I will move away again with my children, and let him have his life with it.
    Yet I don’t think it will come to that, I do not trust it though, and I really don’t know how stable of a person she is, whether if I move back, should I worry about my children and myself. For someone who can literally change their surname to yours, just sends shivers through me.
    I guess though we will see in the near future.

  30. Sarah P. May 10, 2014 at 5:28 pm #

    Strength,

    I agree that ‘it’ is a very unstable person. That changing of the surname on ‘it’s’ part wreaks of ‘bunny boiling.’ (I am referring to the film Fatal Attraction.)

    On the other hand, if you fear her, she has power. I believe she is unstable and capable of some crazy things. But, she seems more like she might be a borderline personality disorder. They are very similar to narcissists, but there is one very major thing that differentiates them in their behavior when they are backed into corner. For instance, if she were backed into a corner and frustrated, she might do something like ‘fake’ overdose on pills to induce guilt and get power.

    If she were a narcissist, she would harm someone externally to get power. I do not necessarily seeing her harming anyone physically in a way that is lethal. I see her as perhaps putting on a grandiose emotional show, maybe throwing in threats, but in the end not doing anything that would cause physical harm. I think she changed her surname as an intimidation tactic. But, the fact that she did it in the first place shows that she has a pathological mental illness, like I said, probably borderline personality disorder.

    If I were you, I would not be scared of her harming you or your kids physically. I would also assert myself if I were you. Like I said, she needs to be holding her head in shame. And she needs to be getting rid of that surname that was never hers.

    One more question– where you live, do they have restraining orders? If they do, could you get one?

  31. Tryinghard May 10, 2014 at 10:02 pm #

    Strength

    Oh hell no! Do not let that sick bitch think you are scared of her and sure as hell don’t let your husband think you are scared of her. She is a manipulative bitch out for her own interests. She doesn’t give two shits about you or her kids. She sees your H as her savior from all her bad choices. I’d be in her and her tacky family’s face. Regardless what your H says. You’re a grown woman with responsibilities for her children. You owe her nothing. You sure don’t owe the family anything. They’ve done nothing to support you. Now is NOT THE TIME TO BE THE NICE ONE.

    I know you’re trying to be nice and show your H how you are the better choice than her but regardless sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

  32. Strengthrequired May 11, 2014 at 5:42 pm #

    Thankyou th, and Sarah, I have been thinking a lot this weekend, and honestly I am scared, where I am now, although I want my h with me so much, I feel emotionally safe. Yet moving back, after I felt I needed to escape, I am scared I won’t feel emotionally safe. I have liked the peace, not knowing anyone, no one knowing me and what my h did to me, no one there to judge me for staying. I know “it” doesn’t know exactly where we are, where I am now, but I know it will be something that she finds out quickly when we move back, due to family connections. So my emotional well being is a concern for me. I honestly wanted to take my family away from all that, and was hoping my h would follow suit, although he moved, he still has only one foot with us and the rest of himself is down there, so what I tried to do, didn’t work. I feel a bit like a joke….
    I have told my h if all works out that we sell where we are, and we move back, then I need to know before hand that our family is safe, that I am safe, that it is out of the picture definitely, that we will not be last on his list but first, with everything. I told him that I know how I don’t want to feel and that is to feel like I did before his ea, and even more during his ea, I felt like we were last on his list, and I want to feel wanted and needed, and I want to know that he wants and needs his children too. I told him if I don’t feel that then I know, I will walk away.
    I let him know that our children are ok if we move back, as they want us to be happy, yet they are concerned that “it” will still be trying to take their daddy, and that you are still seeing her, they don’t want to have that happen. He has assured me that things will be so much better for us, and that the kids and I have nothing to worry about, yet we will see.
    So now it is just waiting for our place to seek, and then the decision as where to live.
    I don’t want to give that fear of me moving back as some sot of power to “it” but honestly it is taking a lot, as I’m going to lose that safety net, I created.

  33. Tryinghard May 11, 2014 at 5:57 pm #

    Strength

    I hear you and I know exactly what you mean.. But, and this is a huge “but”, I don’t believe moving so far away that your husband got to live for 5 days a week is accomplishing what you thought it would accomplish. I do not believe that after an affair it is healthy for the relationship to be separated for so long

    So I am going to put it out there as best I can and I hope I don’t hurt your feelings

    Ok if my name were Strength, and I have made this huge physical, and my husband was living 5days a week by himself, and in the same town that a very aggressive OW and her family lives, before I made a second move back I would hire a privat investigator to follow him for two weeks to make sure his actions were matching his words.

    If there’s nothing well that’s good. If they are still at it and just lying to you some more you have a decision to make.

    You’re a sweet kind person and that is who these kinds of people target.

    Just a suggestion but one way or another you need to know what you are currently living with just isn’t working. He’s put you off long enough. Can’t he move his business to the new town wher his family is? Is his job that geographically important? More important than you and your family?

    I just hope you all aren’t just conveniently out of the way for him and cousin it!

  34. Strengthrequired May 11, 2014 at 8:22 pm #

    Th, my h is the one wanting us to move back to our house. I’m the one that is hesitant, due to the bad feelings I still harbour that relate to there.
    We have talked about moving the business up here, but lack of funds doesn’t help, as well as lack of time, my h is working 6 days a week and finishing late hours, just to catch up with old bills, that have stacked up since the ea.
    I honestly don’t believe that he is still seeing it, not with what I have seen, and noticed, but you know, guard is still up. Guess when you have been treated so disgustingly, is that part of you will always wonder, will always be on the look out and watching for signs.
    If I do decide to move back, and cousin it tries something, I will put a restraining order against her.
    Yet at the moment, we can’t do anything until one of the homes sell. I guess which ever one sells first will determine where we live, and if our house sells first then my h needs to move the business to where we will be living. So I guess time will tell.
    I will say, that I know us moving ended up not going the way I had hoped, but honestly if I had of stayed, I would have went crazy. The amount of chest pains I was getting, I mean they were constant with no break, I was literally ready to admit myself into a psyche ward, so in a way it was a way for me to heal myself from within, to be able to heal the rest of me.
    If that makes sense.
    I had to look at my children seeing their mother losing herself, when I needed to be the strong one keeping their family together.

    • Sarah P. May 12, 2014 at 3:43 pm #

      Hi Strength,

      Really sorry about everything you are going through.

      Here is a question– where is your support system? Your friends and family?

      Are they around? Do you trust them? Do they value you?

      It seems like right now you should be leaning on them to get yourself fortified.

      From the outside looking in, it seems like this EA made you very sick with panic attacks. That simply is not fair to you. Where is your H’s suffering? Is he getting off the hook? Is he also experiencing chest pain?

      Personally, it makes me angry that so many women’s and children’s lives are destroyed by the careless, selfish, and thoughtless actions of husbands.

  35. Strengthrequired May 12, 2014 at 6:27 pm #

    Sarah, my h is still suffering from his bad choices, he is still quite sad. He knows how much he hurt me and is trying very hard to make it right. He works 6 days a week without much of a break in between. Always working late. I’ve noticed over the past couple of years, he suffers migraines now, this is a man that never suffered one in his life.
    What I love to see is him smile again….
    I would love to as well.
    It really has damaged us from within.
    I had my support system, then moved, but honestly, I couldn’t make it harder on my family or husband for my family to learn to forgive him, so I stopped. My friend, well turns out her h was just another that ripped us off, he saw my h in a down time and took advantage of him too. So I haven’t spoken to my friend since. Also she would have preferred I left my h. So that wasn’t going to happen.

    • Strengthrequired May 12, 2014 at 6:29 pm #

      My h told me last night, while he was suffering another headache attack, that he wishes things would get better for us. Made me tears, because I wish for the same thing.

  36. Sarah P. May 13, 2014 at 2:44 am #

    Strength,

    They say “if momma ain’t happy, ain’t no one happy.” I am seeing a lot of concern on your part for your H’s feelings and for your kids. That is all great and what a normal person does. But, then there comes a time when there needs to be ‘self-care’ on your part. This is when you need to do whatever you need to do emotionally to take care of yourself so that you can smile again. I think when you smile again, he will too.

    So, if you were to focus on making you happy and getting to a point where you feel peaceful, what would that look like? What steps would you take?

    If you could wave a magic wand, what would your marriage look like both emotionally and from a practical perspective? What would happy and peaceful look like (in practical terms)?

  37. Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 4:51 am #

    Sarah, you know how many times I have asked myself the same questions? Ohhh so many times. Yet you know I would love to say how things were before the ea, but my h was still never home. What would make me happy is to see my family happy, to see my h happy, to see my h happy with us his family. The problem is I just wish this ea never happened. To be honest, I know that he has never admitted to sleeping with “it”, and I’m not completely gullible to believe he didn’t, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, but honestly who has an affair for over a year, with someone they have declared their love for, and not do the deed. Someone they lied to me for , someone they ditched me for when we would make plans to go out with each other, yet I would left in my own until early hours of the morning out where we were going to meet, just waiting. I’m not an idiot to not know who he was really with, while I waited. This is someone that was supposed to care and love me.
    The same person that would watch me suffer all the heart ache imaginable, as he kept his eye wondering after the ow. The same person that stood before me a could of months after dday, threw a 40th birthday party for me, and declared his love for me in front of everyone that had attended, only just to have a couple of months after that, tell me int the park that he loved his whore, and as he pushed me away, as I asked him if he wanted to be with her. Yet he had also told me in front of her that he loved me too. Yet as I told him I was leaving he left her in the park crying. The same person I saw time and time again ditch me for her. The same person that still declared his love for her after we moved, and still couldn’t wait to leave the house to call and talk to her. The same person that watched my health suffer, yet was more concerned about the whore. Yet I had his children, I stuck by him through thick and thin, yet I was so easily dumped.
    I’m not stupid to think he did not have “sexual relations” while he drowned his sorrows with alcohol and cigars, which he never has before he got stuck to her. Yet for some reason I wonder how will I feel if he admitted it to me, I know I feel sick to my stomach thinking it, I know I would hate the idea that he could touch that scrag with a pole need alone with something else that is attached to him, I hate to think that he could have been such an idiot to betray me in such a way, even after telling me that he would never sleep with anyone while still married to me, which I hung onto, yet to find out that he did, would send me right back to dday. I’m not sure why I have been thinking of this lately but it has been playing on my mind quite abit lately. Maybe it is all the talk about the possible move.
    I cannot stand this disgusting woman, she is sick and twisted, and I hate how she was able to play with my h mind so easily, ohhh my god, I just wanted to slap my h so hard, to just try and wake him up when his ea came out.
    So being happy, I wonder if we can, I wonder if I am strong enough. I have realised lately I am so angry, so angry with my h, with myself, because there was nothing I could do to stop my h and his craziness.
    I would like to say that seeing it have her karma hit her, would be a thrill, but there is nothing that will make up for what she did to my family. It would be bitter sweet.

    • Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 8:20 am #

      that felt really good to get off my chest…. Not feeling as stressed.

  38. Sarah P. May 13, 2014 at 7:20 pm #

    Strength,

    Great!! This is exactly what I am talking about in terms of the concept of journaling. Get all those dark and scary and angry thoughts out on paper. It feels great, doesn’t it?

    As for your H, he needs to be warned. Here is a quote I came across:
    “He that loves not his wife and children feeds a lioness at home and broods a nest of sorrows.” JEREMY TAYLOR

    He needs to stop brooding a nest of sorrows by coming home to you guys. As for him being happy at home, that is neither your job nor your children’s.

    The sooner we learn these truths below, the better off we are:

    1. We cannot make anyone else happy (since it is impossible).

    2. People are in control of their own happiness

    3. It is not our responsibility to make another person happy (and trying to do so is futile as I said in #1).

    4. Most of the time, people generate their own unhappiness and it has to do with the way they are thinking. (A caveat: I am talking about the optimist versus pessimist phenomenon in response to how one perceives the world. I am NOT talking about the fact that people are always going to be unhappy when they are so deeply wounded by events like affairs. When someone hurts you, it is not a matter of how you think about it since you were objectively wounded).

    5. If your husband is ever to be happy, he must first find a way to inhabit a state of mind where he is profoundly grateful for his wife with you and your/his children. He must also realize that only he can make himself happy and it sounds like he looks to too many external things to fill a void (such as attention from the opposite sex, drinking, and his cigars).

    So, that is my 5 cents for the day.

    Hey Trying, do you have any words of wisdom for Strength?

  39. Sarah P. May 13, 2014 at 7:22 pm #

    Typo in #5, he needs to be profoundly grateful for you as his wife and for his life with you and your/his children.

  40. Tryinghard May 13, 2014 at 7:52 pm #

    Hi Sarah and Strength

    I think you covered it. I love all the points and that they are enumerated.

    The one thing I would do is you need to give a deadline to 1. Get one of the houses sold or rented and 2. Moving the business to where you as a family will be living. Someone needs to take control of the living arrangements. The excuse about finances sounds like well, an excuse to keep the status quo.

    Mostly though Strength, I can’t believe you are stuck raising 6 kids by yourself for 5 or 6 days a week. That is not a situation that is good for your marriage or your children or YOU!

    Hasn’t it been almost a year since you moved? I’m just afraid he’s not being totally forthright with his words. Cousin it must be elated that he is by himself for 5 to 6 days a week in the same town as she. I still think a private investigator would be helpful in this situation, but I understand your hesitation. I guess I’ve seen too many situations where the wife and kids live in one town and the mistress lives in another and the man just goes from house to house perfectly content with the set up. I truly pray this is not your case Strength.

    I agree with everything Sarah says. Your H is the only one who can make himself happy and I would think given the fact that he only sees his beloved family 1 or 2 days a week that he isn’t completely thrilled during that time. He must be very conflicted if he’s not. I also think it’s very odd that the cousin took his last name after you moved. If he were truly out of her life why would she do that? Just doesn’t make sense to me.

    I hope I haven’t hurt your feeling Strength and I totally feel for you, but we have to empower ourselves and get really smart or some asshole is just going to keep playing us for fools.

    Hugs to you.

    • Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 8:29 pm #

      Th, no she did that before we moved. She did that after her mother left to go back to her homeland. She wanted a reaction from me and she got one.
      I honestly don’t believe my h is seeing it. We have been talking a lot about things recently, and I have even talked my kids around about moving back and they are quite happy now.
      My h works in the construction business and does everything from the quoting the ordering, the manufacturing and installation himself. Just to go to site it can take a couple of hours just on the road there and back, so he at times only gets a few hours on site before another 2 hours driving back, picking up or going to another site. When you don’t have the funds because you are living day by day, trying to clear debts that have accrued since the ea, we truly don’t have the funds to relocate the business as well as get more employes at this time. We have one guy at the moment and he is useless, but as I said we just can’t afford to get someone in to replace this one just yet. So I know it is not an excuse, because he has so much in his plate, and so many builders on him all the time to be in site, and I mean they nag him so much, and if he can’t be on their site they nag him until he can be there, yet try and get payments from them, it’s like pulling teeth.
      He was hoping that we could save all of our assets, but it is just not working the way we wanted, so I know he is devastated at that aspect. Yet he has worked his ass off just to keep the business going, and to be completely honest I am so proud of him. After all he has been through, to try and keep his goal in mind of not losing our business or homes, he has kept going and kept moving forward. There are days where he is just so exhausted, and so upset at how he works so hard and things just seem to get anywhere. It is those days I worry so much about him, because he truly is working so hard. So I know how devastated he is that after all h hard work, to still have to sell. Yet he just keeps picking himself up and keeps working and pushing himself.
      I have never seen a man work as hard as him, with setback after setback and not just crumble. Yet I am there right next to him, his biggest supporter, keeping his spirits up, and I think it has helped a lot.
      I also know when my h was with his it, he was very easily defensive, yet he has been caring and loving and just so different to those days. No more defensive behaviour. No more irrational behaviour, he is calm and collective and not easily frustrated.
      He calls me every night when he is eating, his dinner and after wards, and he is even starting to become excited at the idea that we are looking at moving down to our home again. He is actually taking it as a given, that we are, and i think it is a real relief for him.
      All the plans he is making, it is really nice to see him like this.
      He even wants to put surveillance cameras up, so we can make sure no “it’s” are driving by trying to cause drama for our family. He really is intent of protecting our family, and has assured me, that he has moved on from that bad time in his life, and she is not apart of his life, nor does he want her to be. He just wants his family together, and that he appreciates me more now than ever before, and he won’t do anything to jeapordise what we have.
      I know my h sees what his ea caused us in every aspect of our lives, and I know more now than ever, especially after our recent conversations that we have had over this and the potential move.
      So I think although I am going to miss where I am now, if cousin it does decide to try again, she will be disappointed to see that he isn’t alone by himself, he has me by his side and we are a force to be reckoned with.
      Funny but my h said something about it the day, that he thinks she may be remarried…. Interesting….. Here is hoping..

  41. Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 7:52 pm #

    Sarah, once he finally got it out of his system, and with me by his side helping him, he has gone back to not drinking and not smoking, which has helped him see things clearly. He I believe was trying to cover the pain he was feeling inside, hoping to forget.
    I actually find it amusing that for him to be anywhere near his beloved it, he had to smoke cigars that he said made him feel light headed, as well as drink. All to make himself feel better about being with her, quite funny when you think that she didn’t think that it was odd for him to have to drink and smoke around her, to stop missing me. Lol
    When someone is no good for you, you do the things that are no good for you. That is what she brought out in him. Funny to think back when he told me that she had saved him. Lol
    From what a better life where you didn’t need to drink yourself blind and smoke yourself silly with cigars to make yourself feel better.
    I’m so glad I got him out of that, because he wasn’t nice, and was ohhh so selfish, the most selfish and heartless I had ever known him to be.

    • Gizfield May 13, 2014 at 9:47 pm #

      You know, it’s funny, Strength, I’ve been with my husband 14 years and never seen him drunk. Ever. And that’s something that was unacceptable to me cause my first husband was an alcoholic and it actually caused his death. Anyway, I saw an email he wrote the tramp, after playing music one night. Apparently he was really trashed, drinking yagermister and tequila ugh. He’s lucky he didn’t get himself killed driving home. This was on Saturday night and he was hung over until Wednesday, lol. Serves the stupid fucker right. She said she “couldn’t tell, lol”. And he claims he didn’t see this stupid whore. Really? It’s all I can do to not reach over and pop him upside the head for sneaking around with this disgusting whore.

      • Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 10:19 pm #

        It’s these ow, that drag them down into doing things they never would have normally. Stupid fucker is right. Lol

  42. Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 8:31 pm #

    We have accepted an offer on our home we are living in, now just hoping that the buyers go ahead with the deal.

  43. Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 8:48 pm #

    Just readin a message my h sent one if my children the other day.
    He asked how everything was, and she said, ok daddy, are you ok. He replied, I’m ok baby, I just miss all of you that’s all.
    That was the same time he said to me, as he was not feeling very well with his headaches, that he just wishes things would get better for us.
    This is just more of a reason for us to move back.

  44. Tryinghard May 13, 2014 at 9:33 pm #

    Strength

    Oh I know the construction business intimately. Our business supplies general contractors. It’s a horrible business. I hate general contractors. They yell and scream and don’t pay..LOL. it’s my job to do the invoicing and collections!! Imagine that? I give it right back to them. I hold materials at the end of the job till they pay me. Yep it wears my husband down too. I hate it. I want to sell out and open a coffee shop!

    I used to feel sorry for him. He worked so hard poor thing. Always tired at night. Totally stressed. So I gave him lots of room to relax did EVERYTHING at home to make his life easier. HAHA boy was I a dope because he sure as hell wasn’t to tired to have an affair and waste all the time going to see her! Uh uh, no more I don’t feel sorry for him. He squandered so much time and effort on her when he could have been with me and his business and his family. Just around the time she came into his life is when the business started going down. Record losses, well the recession didn’t help either. But since I came to the business 3 years ago and hired a crack shot accountant we are going gang busters!!!

    Don’t get me wrong, he works hard but he doesn’t work smart. I’m there helping change that. Hard work isn’t what it takes. Heck a jackass works hard pulling a cart. It takes working smart these days to make it in any business, especially construction. Don’t feel too sorry for him. Hard work is good for him right now. I hope when he gets home all he wants to do is go to bed! By himself!

    Congrats on the contract on the house. I’m praying it sells for you.

    I don’t wear real high heels everyday but I do love them. Love my cowboy boots too. They’re always scared in the office when I come in with my boots on. They call them my ass kicking boots:). LOL I can even run in those heels. Now that’s something the OW should be afraid of. Strength, it just takes practice to get back into them. A half size bigger helps too:)

    • Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 10:28 pm #

      I hate this business too, ours went down too, the same time as the economy crisis and the ea. arghhhh, to think it takes something like an ea to realise what’s right in front of you all along.
      I would love to sell the business, but my h isn’t ready to. To many clients waiting for things to get done. At least the work is there, now, but it’s the damn payments to receive. Omg I hate it. My h won’t let me do the chasing of receivables, because he is worried I will get abused. Lol. Omg, I think I can handle these a holes. We do have a bit of restructuring to do, and looking at what needs to change in the business to make it less time consuming.
      We need to get descent employees, that actually know how to work instead of just saying they know and don’t deliver. Lol.
      I need to place my foot more into the business deeper. I need to learn to do the estimating for quotes etc, because he just doesn’t have the time, yet he confuses me, lol

    • Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 10:33 pm #

      How are you starting to work smarter in this industry?

  45. Tryinghard May 13, 2014 at 9:51 pm #

    Giz

    I am laughing my butt of right now. OMG I needed that!

    I can’t TELL you how many times I’ve thought the same thing! Stupid fucker is right!!!

    STILL LAUGHING AS I TYPE THIS!

  46. Tryinghard May 13, 2014 at 9:53 pm #

    BTW what did he think was going to happen if he drank Jaeger??? That’s what the kids all drink just to get drunk fast. OMG the thing they tell us and expect us to believe.

    Still laughing! Bop him one. JUST KIDDING, don’t. But it’s fun to fantasize

    • Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 10:36 pm #

      Th, that just goes to show me, I’m not a drinker and had no idea about jaeger. Lol

      I need to get with the times. Do you know what I was trying to soothe my sorrows with once. West coast cooler. Lol. Only because I liked it, and not fussed on many other alcoholic drinks, except the chocolates ones, yummmmm

  47. Tryinghard May 13, 2014 at 10:54 pm #

    Strength

    Well first like I said we got a great accountant. Accounting is not something to go cheap on

    Second, Credit applications and follow up on all applicants

    3. We don’t quote and bid to everyone
    4. We establish good relationships and go out of our way with service to good contractors
    5. We plan ahead and buy materials in bulk for good pricing
    6. We don’t let the contractor hold us hostage. Ie. I hold work or materials once they get to 60 days past due. I call them relentlessl
    7. Pay your vendors on time to get good pricing
    8. Keep up with technology and software. This is a must. You can replace estimators and labor with all the new software and technology available to the construction industry.
    9. Plan your schedule, not the other way around. I’ve seen way too many subcontractors jump off a job to go work on another because some jerk is barking louder. YOU CANNOT let the general contractor dictate your time but you have to plan accurately how much time a certain job is going to take.

    It’s a dirty business with way more disreputable people in it. I’m in a law suit now for non payment on a HUD project no less. Haha we beat the general contractor to court with our suit!! These contractors go broke, dint pay you and set up another contracting business under another name.. It sucks

    Hope this helps a little.

  48. Strengthrequired May 13, 2014 at 11:10 pm #

    I’ve been looking at the estimators online, still haven’t made that step at purchasing one just yet, but I think it is the way to go.
    We have been ripped off so many times by some of these companies, and yes that is exactly what they do, go bankrupt and then one up a new business in a different name. All the money they have is protected as nothing is in the directors name in the end, so you are stuffed.
    There are so many shady people in this industry, and so many that don’t know how to work at a good standard. They use cheap material then undercut you on price, then the buyer then decides after a while that the product they bought was crap, so come back to you for it to be replaced and yet they still want it for nothing. Idiots. As my h tells a lot of the customers, you can’t compare an orange to an apple.

    • Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 12:34 am #

      I’ve just told my h how we are going to look at the business and rework things, as soon as things start to settle. I’ve told him, I want to learn the estimating, but we need to buy the estimating software when we are able, because it will be of great benefit to us. Thankyou for reminding me of that software, because I did look at it last year and thought how great it would be to use, and time saving. Now you have sold me on it.
      As for the accountant, I’m so lucky we already have a great one. We have had him for many years, and quite honestly he has been a huge lifesaver for my h and I. I think one of the main people that shook some sense back into my h.

  49. Sarah P. May 13, 2014 at 11:53 pm #

    Hello Strength,
    All of the above would indicate that the EA is over and that you are still processing all of the hurt and anger. I also believe you will be processing it for a while. I do not know anyone who has been a betrayed spouse and fully gotten over it. The anger and resentment fade, but there is always an awareness on some level. But, that is okay.

    So I really hope your home sells and you guys are able to move on.

    But, if you do move back to the place where she lives, promise me that you will hold your head high and treat cousin it as if she is even lower than the chewing gum stuck to the bottom of your shoe.

    Okay?

  50. Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 12:29 am #

    Sarah, omg, I had some good news today. My h just told me that the buyers solicitors and ours are sorting out the exchange of contracts. Also we were able to speak to our bank finally and they are happy for the proceeds of the sale to go towards paying off a lot of debt, as well as tax debt, and most of the homeloan. They don’t see why they can’t continue having us as a customer. So there is a load of debt that will be wiped out and our loan will be continued as usual. That in itself is a huge jump in the right direction, in which we have been working hard towards, just to get our life back on track.
    My h is still a bit down, because everything he touched today at work he said just didn’t go to plan, yet it certainly gave him a sigh of relief, when he heard the news.
    So things are slowly coming into place. After two years..

    Ohhh Sarah, I will hold my head up high, and I will walk all over her like the ground I walk on, because she is beneath me, and for her to see us rise above all she helped create, it will be a happy day indeed. Just to see her lower her head in shame and that smug look off of her face will be priceless. Yet what I would love to see, is my h treat her like the rubbish she is, in front of me. So she sees we mean business.
    They say good things comes to those who wait, and I sure hope this is our turning corner.
    You know how they say, when it rain it pours, when bad things happen? Well I think it is the same when things start to go right, it will drizzle a bit here and there, then all of a sudden you get a load of good things that happen all at once.

    Now I don’t want to get a head of myself because we have come accustomed to having good news only for it to get taken away. So each day is a step closer now to a better day.
    Your great Sarah…..

    • Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 1:03 am #

      Strength,

      We are all going to cross our fingers and pray hard that everything moves forward as it should. I will say this about the ‘universe’ or ‘God’ or the ‘higher power’. If someone is living their life from a right motive, with integrity, and working hard, things can and will go wrong, but not for long. Karma will come around and give good people the good things they deserve. Lots of bad things obviously happened because of cousin it. But now, his life is back on track, you two are working together as a team, you have integrity, and the universe or God is going to right the situation. I absolutely believe this.

      I have a good feeling that some really good things are going to happen for you and your family. Just keep the faith and never give up.

      Remember, horrible things can happen in life, but as long as we do not allow our spirit to be broken, we will overcome everything life throws at us.

      You have a good, strong spirit. You are a good wife and mom. Things are going to go right. But in the meantime, NEVER LET YOUR SPIRIT BE BROKEN. Because as long as you remain whole and unbroken, whatever life dishes out, you will always be able overcome it. And that is the most important thing.

      And this really applies to all of us here. Everyone here is “good people” and I would ask each one of you to never let your spirits be broken, no matter what you have gone through and no matter what happens in the future. Okay? 🙂

  51. gizfield May 14, 2014 at 12:32 am #

    Lol, I was having a Moment earlier, could you tell ? I was in so vile mood today, my mind was filled with Divorce Fantasies. They are very strong, too. Anyway, I had to stop at the store to get fruit for my daughter to take to school tommorow and spotted some hard cider. No yaeger for me, ever.

  52. Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 12:39 am #

    Strength and Trying (and possibly even Doug and anyone else who wants to chime in),

    Now I need to vent and I want some advice on how to better comport myself in the future when confronted with my H’s co-workers who are aggressive.

    This is a HUGE vent.

    But, first, I am going to tell you a whole lot more about my situation to put all of this in perspective. Then you will understand why he gets hit on so much. I need help in knowing how to better confront it these situations and if Doug wants to give pointers from a male viewpoint I would greatly appreciate it. My husband gets hit on frequently and I really want to react to this in a way that does not alienate him but also sends a clear message.

    So, my husband is a family physician who works in a ‘walk-in’ clinic which is like an ER for people who have the cold or the flu. He is an employee of the facility (not the owner) and works a 8am-5pm shift during the week. He has always been an employee and has always worked day shifts. He does not have a pager, is not on call, and does not work in hospitals. This is great because its more like he has a standard office job than being the physician who is never home and sleeps in the hospital at night.

    He and I met when he was a resident and married during his last year of residency. At that time, I had worked in corporate management and had an impressive title and a lot of money saved in the bank. (In other words, I made more than him and in addition to that, I did not have student loans to pay off since I worked and got scholarships during undergad and grad school. He, on the other hand, had and still had outrageous debt from med school). Fast forward 12 years later and now I am the stay-at-home mom who is in school. No more fancy jobs that include international travel and managing projects with 7-figure budgets.

    But, to the outside world, i.e. the ones who hit on him, they just see a doctor who has a stay-at-home ‘boring’ wife. (Ahh they do not know me…)

    The place where he works has a lot of employees who seem to pass through and they do not stay long. So, it seems like each year, there is another new female co-worker who is being really obnoxious. I have told you guys about the most recent one who is pursuing aggressively and insisting on dinner at her house. She is a nurse practitioner and in a relationship (lives with a guy).

    Then there was one before that, who still works there, who was freshly divorced and in the military, who thought she could flip her hair and lure him away. Didn’t happen but it was apparent that was her intent anytime I stopped by. Now she is in a relationship and has backed off.

    Then there were ones before that when he worked in another clinic– many of them married or in relationships.

    What’s his part of it? he is kind to everyone, compassionate, and has a warm smile. He treats everyone the same way, even 90-year-old men.

    But, many women can mid-read that, especially if they want to.

    I used to think he did things to send signals that it was okay to break boundaries, but after several recent experiences, I am beginning to think he is actually a good boundary setter and some women just have no morals, no shame, and do not care if a man is married.

    Here is an example:
    A few weeks ago, we went to a dinner where a financial firm was giving presentations. All of the people there had not met before, but since it was only for physicians and their partners, it was clear who the doctors were. So, we are sitting there eating appetizers and this female resident comes in late. When she sits down, she is scanning the room, apparently checking out the male doctors. She locked in on my husband, for whatever reason, and kept doing things to try to get his attention across the table. I gave him ‘the look’ and a subtle squeeze of the hand that said to him, IGNORE IT. So, when I was speaking this woman would glare and shoot darts out of her eyes. When my husband was speaking she would stare at him, smile, and flip her hair, caress her neck etc. We ended up leaving early because my parents called to tell us one of our kids was sick. So, I did not mention it in the car on the way home. But, it made a huge impression on me because he had never met this women, he was not looking at her making eye contact, or encouraging her. But, he is a good looking guy and certainly has ‘presence’. She did not care that he was married and we were talking to the group about our kids and family. She had a wedding ring on too- but that did not bother her. She mentioned that she was also military and that her husband was elsewhere. I can also tell you I was not imagining this. Her body language was so clear she might as well have been wearing a neon sign.

    I was floored because of the absolute audaciousness of this women. And she truly had a lot of nerve because it was so clear that we were married and had kids. I was also surprised she would do that because of the way that I show up at such functions. As you know, I spent some of my college years living in France and took on the mannerisms and the way of dress of the French women. That is, always classy yet also extremely feminine. That night I wore a fitted red dress, a hermes scarf; my long hair down and styled, heels, and art deco jewelry. Usually, for whatever reason, that deters those who are ready to hit on him. (It was my best friend who tipped me off to this– she has heard her single friends say that if a man’s wife is even halfway attractive, they don’t bother flirting). My best friend cannot stand men who are taken but she knows of many single women who specifically target married men. That has always ticked me off.

    So, here are my questions, how do I tell my husband that some of the women in his place of work are being inappropriate without sounding like a broken record? How do I assert myself to these women in a way that will make them back off? Should I ever confront anyone and how should I do it?

    I know that this comes with the territory of being married to a man who is a physician. But it is still beyond irritating. Also, in ‘real life’ when he and I are out and about and he is plain clothes, almost no one ever flirts with him. Of the two of us, when I am out and about on my own I get hit on frequently by strangers and ignore it. So, it seems like a lot of the obnoxiousness of other women comes when they know he is a doctor. Like I said, even his female cousin was hitting on him (and she also happens to be a mega gold digger)!!!!!!

    So, tell me your thoughts!! I need advice 🙂

    • Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 4:59 am #

      Now Sarah, you have given me some wise words of wisdom, now let me think about your dilemma and I will come back to you.
      As they say, the good men are always taken, that’s why these tramps still try, whether the wife is sitting right in front of her or not.

    • Doug May 14, 2014 at 5:33 am #

      Sarah, I’ll throw in my two cents for the first question, anyways. For what ever reason, you women have this sixth sense about you where you can sniff out a come-on or other subtle inappropriate behavior by other women. Most men I know tend to be oblivious to them. So when these things happened to me in the past and Linda was there to witness them, she would just flat out tell me right after they occurred… “Hey that woman was flirting with you big time…” As far as her reaction towards the other woman…usually a glare and/or she would start hanging on my arm or something. I don’t think you should worry about sounding like a broken record as perhaps regular reminders are a good thing and will help keep those boundaries firmly in place. I’m sure your husband gets a nice little ego boost when it occurs and we all know where that could lead, so I wouldn’t be shy about letting him know that you are aware of these women’s behavior.

      Now, as far as the second question…I’ll leave that one up to the women to answer. I do tend to agree that when another woman sees a man with an attractive woman they tend to back off. That being said, sometimes the more defenses you put up, the more aggressive the enemy will become.

      • Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 6:04 am #

        Sarah, I probably wouldn’t confront these sleepy women, I think you need to keep,your presence in place, when these woman start sniffing around. Be present, and hang off that husband of yours, and make sure he knows that he needs to keep his attention on you, when these woman are sniffing. As Doug said, men don’t always pick up on these things as quickly as us women, that’s why these good men get caught up in something they didn’t expect.
        A man only has to speak nice to these women, and laugh and talk and just be a good guy, and these women think that well, I’m in with a chance this man is hanging off every word I say, and ohhh how nice is he….
        So as I said, tell your husband, ok this person is trying to get your attention, flirting whatever the case may be, and tell him don’t give her the satisfaction of gaining your attention, don’t let her flirting be an ego boost, stop it in its tracks, by showing her where your attention really lies.
        I know when I was younger and my h and I went out for dinner with my h work. Well some of the men he worked with were, let’s just say, flirts… So when the waitresses would come around they would flirt with the waitress’s and the waitress would flirt back. My h didn’t think much of it, because these men were normal to him, so he joined in with them. To say the least, I was not impressed and reminded him that yes you may be enjoying the boost this woman gives you, but don’t give her the idea that you are interested. I let him know that you have to be careful how you talk to some women, they think just a nice talk, can mean they are interested. I think it took his ea with it, to realise how dangerous to a marriage it really can be.
        So my advice, is
        Keep your presence known.
        Do not leave your husband on his own, when these predators are lurking and waiting for the attack, which is when you are not around.
        Remind your husband, that when a woman pays him attention, and that woman is not you, he needs to act disinterested, and move his attention elsewhere, if your not around.
        Tell him, that some women are not a friend of the marriage, that they don’t care if you have a wife or not, they just don’t have boundaries, so he needs to remember to always protect your marriage from these women. Just like you will when men try to get your attention.
        Most of these women that do chase after a married man anyway, are just gold diggers, looking for an easy ride.
        As Doug said, let him know when someone is trying to flirt with him, so he knows to excuse himself and walk away if able, or have him, start making up a conversation with you, so she sees that she doesn’t have a chance.
        These women are ruthless.
        I

        • Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 6:07 am #

          I wouldn’t worry about being a broken record, as Doug said, you have to protect what’s yours. If you don’t, then I can be sure as hell certain that these women won’t either. They will dive in and eat your left overs if given the chance.

        • Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 6:18 pm #

          Hi Strength,

          Those are some good words and I am glad know that me not confronting them is okay.

          The thing that set me off yesterday was some more stuff my husband told me about the nurse practitioner at his work, who we will refer to as “Tina”.

          So here it is:

          As some of you know, Tina has contacted me twice telling me that we are going to come to her house for dinner with her and a guy she lives with. Prior to her contacting me, she used to verbally tell my husband to arrange dinner. Each time he would say ‘no’ in a nice way. I had met her on a couple of occasions prior to her emailing me about dinner and she was always pushy with my husband (even in front of me) and very bossy.

          So, yesterday, I found out that the last time Tina emailed me tell me she was going to prepare dinner for us that week. (And yes, she emailed to tell me she was preparing dinner and we needed to be there and giving me a choice of two days that week.)

          So here is why she did this:

          A couple of months ago, my h and I had dinner with his boss and his bosses wife who are both very nice and above board normal people.

          It turns out Tina found out that my H and I had dinner with the boss and she was very offended so she confronted my husband at work. He simply said, “Sarah is the one who arranges these things and it happened to work out.” So, this is why she then felt she needed to email me again ‘instructing’ me that we were to have dinner at her house.

          As you know, I emailed her back and politely said ‘no dinner, but let us have coffee together, just us two girls and tell me a time that works.”

          That was a test to she is she would follow through.

          Well, as I suspected, she did not even acknowledge the email. That was several weeks ago and she still has not acknowledged it.

          What also set me off was something that happened last week. There was a day she was working with my H and that day coincided with a day I had to pick up my oldest from school because he was ill. So, since our insurance is with this particular clinic, my husband said bring him in. So, when I did, she was nowhere to be seen. She knew we were there and I think she was hiding. She could not even show her face.

          Now, I did not necessarily want to see her, but it tells me that once again, she failed the test. If she would have had pure motives she would have come to say hello just like everyone else there does.

          So it just pisses me off.

          She has apparently stopped sitting by my husband and getting in his face after the 2nd email. But, I wonder how long that will last.

          I also happened to find out that she is receiving weekly therapy with someone who was one of my mentors. She told my husband she was in therapy with this person. Now, because of ethical guidelines I cannot call my mentor, with whom I am on extremely good terms, and tell him that he needs to tell the stray cat to back the h*** off. So, I do not mention it at all.
          Of course, I would like to be a fly on the wall in those sessions to see if she says she has a crush on my h. My mentor knows both me and my H very well and my mentor hates infidelity. So, that would be interesting to see the look on his face. But again, neither of us (neither me or my mentor) can even talk about the fact (to each other) that we both know her because it is an ethical violation. So I do not bring it up. By the way, I would bet my money on it that Tina is a borderline personality with narcissistic features. These types generally are NOT helped by therapy.

          Infidelity is so damn complex and it has far-reaching complications. All, I know is, I am still ticked off.

          But, my best friend and I did come up with a really great thing to say to Tina if she ever happens to approach me in person about dinner. My best friend is single and she is a great catch. Tina’s live in boyfriend won’t marry Tina because Tina complains to my husband that her live-in is some heir to a fortunate. So, if Tina does not cut it out, my best friend told me to repeat this zinger: “You know, Tina, I hear your boyfriend is heir to a fortune. I think dinner would be lovely because I would like to determine if I can fix your boyfriend up with my best friend since he obviously is not interested in you any longer. When would you like to have dinner?” Ouch!!!!!

          Okay, in reality, I could never say that– but it is nice to dream.

          Do you ladies ever feel like by being married and having kids you get the short end of the stick? After all, we are the ones who usually give up years of working in the professional world. We are the ones whose figures change after having babies, even if we work out all the time. We are the ones who do the primary care-taking. Some husbands wanted those children but then it’s like they don’t ant everything else that comes with it. Just an observation. I do not regret staying at home since I see it profoundly benefits my children. But, sometimes I miss having a corporate job since being out and about allows us to talk to other adults and have a sense of mastery over our careers. Plus, I do believe that whether men say so or not, they like having wives who are out working in fancy jobs. It seems like that is why it is easy to get side tracked by female coworkers. Because in them there is a woman who is well-groomed, who is making a difference professionally, and of whom they only get to see the best parts. (That is, no screaming children sitting at their ankles and no shirts covered in baby food and drool). Just an opinion. Has anyone else noticed this?

          • Strengthrequired May 15, 2014 at 6:36 am #

            Sarah,Tina sounds like a piece of work. I would probably just say, look Tina, I’m so sorry, but I have no intention of having dinner with you, nor does my husband. Ohh and Tina, please don’t keep asking, don’t keep telling me that I have a choice of days on when to come, because if I wanted to accept your offer, I would, and quite honestly I don’t like being pressured. I also don’t understand why it is so important to have us over for dinner in the first place. Lol
            I know what you mean, my h will go to work, finish what ever time, do what ever he needs to do, then come home. With me, even when I was working full time, I still had to go home bath children, cook and clean, yet when my h was home, he could out his feet up.
            When I was earning more than my h, he didn’t like it. I know it bugged him. Yet now, I still put my needs behind everyone else. I would love tog I out and work again, not for anything else but to be out with adults, because I swear when you are with kids all day, you miss the adult interaction.
            My h could never have been the one that stays home and raises the kids, he would have went crazy.
            Yet I think because I was the one at home, raising the kids, and he was the one working, he felt he could do what he wanted, if he didn’t want to go home and listen to whingy whiney kids, he didn’t have to.
            He would take his time, maybe stop off at a friends place or a relatives place.
            I have to say, it really annoyed me. I guess that’s how he found it so easy to get in so deep with his ea, because he could, he didn’t have to worry about the kids, because I had them.
            I can tell you, he would never have been able to do the things he did, if he was left with the kids.
            So yes, I feel like I had the short hand, because they wanted kids too, but just not the other stuff that comes with it.

      • tryinghard May 14, 2014 at 5:39 pm #

        Doug

        What did you call it once, like cat piss in a liter box??? You are right I can spot them a mile away!

      • Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 6:22 pm #

        Hey Doug,

        Thanks for your thoughts on this. Here is another question and this is something my best friend was asking today. My best friend hesitates to get married because she believes that men are hard-wired to want the ego boost that female attention provides. She says that she believes after men get married, they do not get the same ego boost from their wives because life settles in, and so they seek it other women, such as coworkers.

        So she was asking me if this perception about men is true and if men can be satisfied with just the attention of their wives? What are your thoughts and have you ever heard any guys talk about this?

        • Doug May 15, 2014 at 2:22 pm #

          Hey Sarah, From a variety of sources that I’ve read, there seems to be a consensus that men crave attention and appreciation from their significant others. To that extent I would have to agree that men are somewhat hard-wired for ego stroking. Are all men this way? I seriously doubt it. Do women crave the same things? I’m pretty sure they do. Are both sexes therefore at risk for affairs? Obviously. That said, I think your friend’s reasoning for not getting married is sort of lame. It’s like the old saying…”You can walk outside an get hit by a bus tomorrow…” The point is, in any relationship – and really anything you do – there are risks. And to not want to get married due to a gigantic generalization like she made is kind of nutty.

          • Sarah P. May 18, 2014 at 12:27 am #

            Doug,

            Everything you say seems like common sense. I think the issue with my best friend, as I told her today, is that she choose the WRONG guys. I told her that even though she is gorgeous, intelligent, and runs a successful business, if she keeps choosing the WRONG guy none of that is going to matter.

            I say you can take a Prince ‘out’ of a frog, but you cannot take the frog out of the Prince.

            My point being, even if he looks like a Prince, he may still be a frog underneath– and like most frogs, he will spend his days lolling in the mud and looking for (bar) flies.

  53. Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 12:39 am #

    So how was that hard cider giz, lol.
    We had the fire alarm go off at home today, someveryine had to evacuate, and all I thought, is that would be right, we finally look like we have a buyer for our home and the whole building gets burnt down. Anyway turns out after the fairies came, someone had set the alarms off while trying to cook. Yay for no fire….

  54. Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 12:45 am #

    Ohh do you ladies remember the lady that I mentioned who would go screaming down the intercom to the man who broke up with her, crying, screaming then talking sanely then going back to screaming at him telling him that he was her life, blah blah blah. Then also yelling out that he would abuse her. Well looks like he took her back, because today, I hear her screaming from his apartment, ohhhh please don’t, and carrying on, I thought I heard a slap but not so sure, mostly just heard her screaming her lungs off and screaming out to everyone that he is hurting her. Well the neighbours to him, must have called the cops, because they ended up there. Yet I’m not really sure if she was screaming just for the sake of screaming and trying to get him into trouble, they weren’t there very long. Yet at the same time I’m wondering, wtf does she go to a man that hits her if that is what he actually does, why does she beg him to take her back if she knows he is not a good person. I don’t get it.

    • Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 1:15 am #

      Hi Strength,

      Oh there are hundreds of books that have been written on this topic of why women return to their abusers. It is really a very sad situation and I would actually believe the woman.

      I have seen this returning to the abuser even in my own family. My mom’s sister (my aunt) married a very handsome and charming attorney. Well, whaddya know. After my cousin was born, the physical abuse begins. It took my aunt years to leave the situation. No one understood why she tolerated it– after all, she was also a high powered attorney, a woman who actually fought for women’s rights, and a force to reckon with. She would scare the meanest grizzly bear away should it ever meet her on the trail. But, when it came to her husband, he had some kind of intangible power over her– a hold that could not be broken. And when she was with him, she became this emotionally powerless individual cowering in a corner. The day that he almost took her life, she took my cousin and left. When he saw it was for real, he successfully committed suicide.

      That was years ago and my aunt is still not over it. She still thinks about him all the time, wonders what she could have done to stop his abuse, (she could have done nothing), and apart of her still loves him. I am not kidding. She does not even understand it herself. She has never remarried or even had a relationship after that– and this happened almost 30 years ago.

      So that is what domestic violence looks like. The abusers somehow hook their victims in and have a power over their victims that the rest of us cannot understand. It’s extremely sad. People are killed and lives are ruined. This is one of my personal missions and one that I hope to help women with one day. In our community, there have been several recent homicides due to domestic violence. The last one was the most terrible. He killed the wife 3 years prior and when the police had enough evidence to arrest him, he killed his two small sons (one in front of the other) and then killed himself.

      I will never understand why and only hope I am able to work with women in a way that gets them out for good and safely.

      So please be mindful of your neighbor.

      • Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 4:31 am #

        Sarah, this woman is not my neighbour, by what she screams out overhe intercom, she hasn’t been with this man for very long, and also has a child from someone else. Now she said one day that he pushed her son, so wtf does she keep going back to a man, that if he is doing the things she claims as she screams down the intercom, why would she want a man who she hasn’t been with for very long, near her son. Yet the police today after they were called from all the screaming didn’t stay for long, so I am guessing it was just another one of those tantrums she has over the intercom.
        If anything I would have had that woman up for an avo. She just doesn’t seem in the right frame of mind, and he hasn’t always let her in after she begs him to after screaming at him and using colourful words, then crying in hysterics, then talking calmly like nothing has happened. Then it goes over the same thing again and again, day after day. Until he has enough and let’s her in.
        I have seen this same woman screaming and rolling around in the grass of other neighbours lawns, as he asks her what the hell is she in the grass for.
        The neighbours who live in the building where the man lives, have had enough of her, they have gone down several times to tell her to leave, otherwise they would call the cops on her. She leaves plunging her car horn, only to return back on the other side of their building starting all over again with the screaming and name calling etc. I guess she thinks that because she is on the other side of the building those same people won’t hear her.
        I think the only thing this man has done is try to escape a toxic relationship, and she just won’t give up. I think if he did hurt her, they would have taken him away in the back of the police wagon, yet they didn’t.
        It’s strange but I guess I won’t believe all the words that come out of a woman’s mouth, when they are trying to get the attention of a man. Some men are plain scum, but not all best up on a woman, yet not all women make up the stories either. Yet it could happen to any of our husbands, ending up with a crazy woman, who claims to be a victim of their abuse, yet they are innocent.
        So tbh I’m not sure who I feel sorry for anymore, after what I have seen from manipulative woman, some men are just innocent but are presumed guilty, because of how the woman carries on.

        • Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 7:16 pm #

          Strength,

          That clarifies it. I would say that the woman is either on drugs or drunk. She is acting totally irrationally. Sounds more like she is a stalker than an abuse victim.

  55. gizfield May 14, 2014 at 12:50 am #

    The hard cider was good, Strength. Michelob Ultra brand. I had four and have absolutely no nasty aftereffects now. Yeay.

  56. Strengthrequired May 14, 2014 at 4:57 am #

    Giz, yay for enjoying that drink. Lol
    Enjoy one for me, pleaseeeeee.

  57. tryinghard May 14, 2014 at 5:37 pm #

    Sarah P

    Oh no you’re married to a Doctor!!! What were you thinking???

    OK, well here is what I would have done. I’d have gone back to the kitchen, grabbed two burly kitchen workers, gone back to the table and yelled GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!!!

    HHMMM, No, wait, that wouldn’t have worked in this situation I guess 🙂 My bad.

    OYYYYY. Look you know YOU nor HE can control what others do, only what we do and how we react to their behavior. You, my friend, are in a unique position. Men like your husband are the epitome of hero worship by everyone in the whole wide world. If you aren’t worrying about the nurses, it will be the female patients, drug vendors, grocery store clerks, friends, friends of friends, COUSINS any female and gay male that knows he’s a doctor!!! It could be never ending. Your H and what kind of lifestyle he represents is the epitome to many women (and men for that matter) as getting the ultimate shiny apple!

    Now, in your case, and GIVEN that your husband has never cheated and has NEVER given you reason to suspect him otherwise, AND sounds totally devoted to you and your family, you know that any person is capable of infidelity, no one is immune. You know that. AND you know it doesn’t have to be anyone prettier, slimmer, fatter, uglier, dumber, classier, more successful, less successful etc (you get the gist) for her to be the one. It’s all about how they boost the ego. Timing, vulnerability, , and opportunity. She can come on very strong or she can just be herself. She can be a ball buster or a shrinking violet. Someone you know or a perfect stranger.

    I can give you story after story about the docs I know, the affairs (both gay and straight), the divorces. One doc was so butt ugly I don’t know how he got his first wife. I mean stop the fucking clock ugly. Oh yeah, she was his nurse and he was an ortho doc. Well that butt ugly guy got another woman, a nurse, knocked her up divorced my friend and married the nurse. He’s still butt ugly AND poorer. It’s like Newt Gingrich, how the hell did he ever find one woman to sleep with him let alone find 3 to have extra marital affairs with??? Another doc I know was Chief of Surgery at a local hospital. A real jerk. Mean to every nurse and employee. Scream and yell mean. Always a scowl on his face. Totally cold to patients and employees. NO ONE liked him. Arrogant SOB. He had the cutest family. Nice sweet quiet wife able to accept him being the king of the family and always in the lime light. Yep, affair with a nurse, left his wife married the nurse. Another doc, married 20 years, two beautiful, straight A, children…well actually, he was gay all his life so he left his wife for his boyfriend who was not a nurse, but a beauty queen judge, SWEAR TO GOD!!! I could go on and on, you get my point.

    Here’s the deal. I think you need someone from the outside like a therapist to talk to him. Seriously, we can yammer in their ears till we are blue in the face, but pretty soon they just tune us out. They get sick of hearing it. And I think he might be more accepting if it came from a professional. BTW have you read the book Sociopaths Among Us?

    Well, Hell yes that woman was flirting with him, but what about the chick that isn’t so obvious. Flies under the radar? There’s literally thousands and you do not have enough time or energy to follow them all or check up on them because eventually you will have to go pee and once you take your eyes off him that’s when it’s going to happen!! Again, you get my point.

    This person sounds so outrageous that you could have been Nicole Kidman sitting there and she would have thought it perfectly reasonable to flirt so outrageously with him. People like that do it for the sport, the challenge.

    I think one way to fight it is to embarrass them. The worse thing would be for him to be embarrassed by it. Maybe your H saying out loud to her at the table, “Mrs. Robinson are you flirting with me?” Who knows what would have stopped this woman. I actually think total dismissal, total ignoring is the most effective. You probably have to go to a lot of social functions like that. Stay by his side. Work out a code ahead of time. Explain to him you know he wouldn’t cheat and that you trust him, but these blatant flirts are wearing on you and your self esteem. You need his help for reassurance. Maybe a wink or a squeeze could be the code when you see the flirt coming. Then the two of you literally ignore that person. No eye contact, no listening to them and actually turning away. BUT what if it’s his boss or superior. Jeeezzz it could go on and on. You are going to have to be very judicious because it could make you paranoid and suddenly everyone in the world is a flirt.

    I really think you should talk to a counselor about this and then bring him in with you so SHE can explain the motives behind a lot of women’s actions. Sometimes men will listen when it comes from a “professional”. Also you need his behavior in thwarting these flirts to be his idea. He needs to realize that although he may be perfectly charming and very handsome, most these women are after one thing with these men $$$$$$$.

    I had an experience with my H at a 54th Street Grill with a waitress. This waitress actually came to our table and turned her back to me and only addressed my husband while taking our order. Seriously, she looked over her shoulder at me while I ordered my grilled chicken salad!! Oh he laughed and she touched him on the shoulder, and he actually asked this waitress what she recommended to eat. Total flirting on his part too. I mean WTF, who needs a meal recommendation at a 54 Street Grill??? It’s all CRAP food!! Order the freaking burger! I was seething! She left and I explained to him (through gritted teeth) that this is how these cheap restaurant waitresses think they will get big tips! Much to her surprise, when the bill came, I took the bill and paid it. Guess who didn’t get a tip??? But, my husband loves being pandered to by waitstaff!! It’s like they are beneath him so he can really impress them. BA (Before Affair) I ignored it. Chalked it up to harmless flirting. Well that’s no more. We’ve had many talks about it and there is a line in the sand on this. I’ve warned him that if it ever happens again I will embarrass both him and the waitress, and get the waitress in trouble with the manager. Needless to say we do NOT go to Hooters 🙂

    Hope I’ve helped in some way.

    • Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 8:15 pm #

      Hello Trying,

      I like that you reminded me of not being able to control others. Very true and it is something I tell others all the time! But then when it comes to my own life, it’s hard.

      Yup, you get what it is like to be married to one of these guys. When I worked in management jobs and did not have kids, I handled all of the stress of flirting women more easily. I think since I have been home and in school for a while (my program takes forever since it is part-time) it gets to be more wearing. I feel trapped in a way since he is the sole income. Before, I guess I had more confidence because I made as much as he did. These family docs (and pediatricians) do not make the money that other docs do. (They make about 1/4 of what specialists make– especially in this state). So, I felt like more of a peer and I felt like if he ever were to mess up with another woman, I would have my life set up to leave immediately. I guess that provides peace of mind in a way. But, since I do not work and stay home with kids and go to school, my children’s livelihood depends on where their dad hangs his hat. So, in a way, this is disempowering to be dependent on the whims of a man who could one day get sucked into an affair. Now, he actually is a nice person with good morals. But, as you said, nice people can slip up. I have seen very nice and well meaning people make mistakes. In fact, it is the psychos who usually target nice folks and know how to wear them down.

      I have read The Sociopath Next Door– is that the book you were referring to? The most harmful thing about sociopaths is they know how to fly under the radar. They are really adept at fooling good people since good people give the benefit of the doubt.

      As for being attractive (or not) I know that does not matter in terms of affairs. I have seen some men with really attractive and nice wives take on mistresses who crawled out from underneath the slime at the bottom of the barrel. In fact, the slime did not even want to come in contact with such women– yet there are men who are willing.

      Anyhow, a lot of this frustration is obviously about my own general discomfort and feelings of powerless in this situation. There is nothing I can do to prevent women from flirting and I was the one who chose to marry my husband. In the beginning, I will admit I was hesitant to date him since he was a doctor. He had to try hard to convince me. Looking back, that probably made him chase more and that is not a good motivation on his part. But, on my part, it was not a manipulation or playing hard to get– I was truly concerned. Since I was making my own living and doing well I did not need to get married and I only wanted to marry for love. I did marry for love and a part of me wishes I would not have fallen in love with him because of his profession. But, I felt we were a great match otherwise in all ways.

      On the other hand, there are some very real events I am reacting to, like Tina at work. That is not in my imagination because of my general uneasiness.

      I take full responsibility knowing what I got into. But it seems like things have gotten worse after the economy tanked.

      So thanks for listening and if you have any ideas for me to put myself at ease, that would be great.

      As for the waitresses, they are so annoying. It really irritates me when they intentionally ignore the wives. That is terrible customer service. And yes, flirting takes on a whole other dimension when a husband has transgressed.

  58. Rachel May 14, 2014 at 6:56 pm #

    Sarah P forgive me but, why are you here if your husband didn’t cheat?
    I really wouldn’t worry about those women. As long as your husband wasn’t drooling like mine use to when a woman glanced his way then, your all set!!
    Some Women are just so desperate for that cheap thrill they don’t care who is present.
    My ex had a thing going on at the baseball field while he WAS COACHING kids!!!!
    He would stop practice to talk to a newly divorce mother. My youngest was 14 years old at the time. How embarrassing for my poor kid.
    my ex loved hooters!!

  59. Sarah P. May 14, 2014 at 7:32 pm #

    Hello Rachel,

    Why am I here? Great question!

    Well, that’s easy to answer. I am here because I was engaged to someone several years back and he dumped me prior to the wedding without giving a single reason. It was because he had been having an affair with a woman for 6 months and she gave him an ultimatum. We owned a house together– worked together– I had a lot vested in this relationship. He tried to come back and still did not fess up to his affair– ever. I had to find out through the grapevine. I did not go back and was dating my husband.

    The short of it is, after that experience, a part of me that trusts easily died for good. That is the first reason I am here.

    The second is to understand the inner workings of adultery hopefully so that something will hit my radar next time before anything happens. I too am still healing from being betrayed, even though that was almost 14 years ago.

    The third is to write articles on the stuff that we have been taught about adultery in my psychology program in hopes that I can pass some of that info along to others. Therapists can be darn expensive, and though I am still a student, I hope to pass along helpful information that no one is required to pay $200/hr for. I believe people should be able to have access to effective emotional healing without having to go broke. (One day, when I go out in the real world, I want to fund a clinic with grant money so that folks who are not insured can get help).

    But, I guess the fourth reason is because the specter of adultery is always with me. As you saw above, many women flirt with my husband, constantly. So, it keeps me on my toes. Many days, I think that if we did not have kids, I would have left. Because the stress gets to be very wearing.

  60. Tryinghard May 14, 2014 at 9:24 pm #

    Sarah

    If I gave you the impression that I thought you were imagining things I mis-spoke. I believe every word you are saying.

    Remember the employee that decided it was good to try to cozy up to my husband the boss??? My husband completely ignored her. Never spoke to her and yet she persevered. I saw it every day and I think she knew it was annoying me so she did it more. She didn’t think I had the clout to fire her and actually my husband told me weeks before I fired her to fire her. I was the one who kept giving her chances, until the straw broke the camels back and I finally did fire her. Thing is she needed that job, she should have been kissing my ass instead of doing what she was doing. Pandering to my husband wasn’t her only mistake.

    The only point I need to make is there will always be a Tina. Do you think your H could go to the boss and complain about her obvious flirting with your husband? Let her know her job is on the line. Could your husband have a more active role in deciding who gets hired and fired? This kind of person is poison in an office.

    FYI, note from old TryingHard to young TryingHard, DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR OWN CAREER AND INCOME. Even for the children. Just sayin, Sarah

    • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 2:01 am #

      Hello Trying,

      Oh don’t worry, I did not get the impression that you said I was imagining things. I believe that sometimes maybe I am imagining things and I was wondering about myself if I read too much into situations.

      As for the thing about not giving up your own career and income, good point. I stayed in my corporate line of work until 2009 after our 2nd was born. Our 2nd had all kinds of issues as soon as he was born and had to go to the NICU. His first year was hard– in and out of the hospital. I kept trying to go back to corporate work and the work was there, but I could not because of this health issues. Then at 2 years of age, he got an autism diagnosis. So… I began immediate intervention and that required me staying at home more. Finally I decided to start the master’s in psychology and finished it in 2012. That has been the past few years. The good news is, I am going to be publishing a self-help book this fall that has to do with overcoming fear and anxiety. There is much more to it than that, but that is the gist. In other words, I am trying to keep doing things that keep one foot in the career door until I finish school.

      By the way, have you forgiven your husband?

  61. Rachel May 14, 2014 at 9:57 pm #

    Thank you, Sarah P. I wish you all the best with your studies.
    I still feel that I do need therapy and as you stated, it’s very expensive. My old therapist does not participate in my health insurance and she is much too expensive without it.
    I have tough days with the rejection. And can hear him with a list of what is wrong with me. Just hard to manage some days.
    I can understand your feelings about the other women around your husband now that you explained your story. It’s hard getting the trust back.

    • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 2:06 am #

      Rachel,
      That is really hard if you cannot see your therapist due to the insurance companies. This is the main thing wrong with the current system. People like me join the ‘helping professions’ because we want to HELP people– not make them go broke.

      Can your therapist participate in a sliding scale so that it’s not pricey?

      What rejection are you referring to and what are the tough days about? Is this your husband who is doing the rejecting or are you remembering past things that were said or done?

      • Rachel May 15, 2014 at 6:43 am #

        Sarah p.
        I have already asked my therapist if she could help me but her hands are tied.
        The rejection is still fresh. I was married for 25 years. He made me out to be a bad person. “she” was nice. I’m nice too. If he could have just packed his bags and I’m outta here it would have been so much easier. I wasn’t perfect for him.
        Tell me what husband brings their wife to a plastic surgeon to have her breasts lifted. When the surgeon said that he doesn’t do that my ex said, can you just look at her breasts. The surgeon wouldn’t. I was never so embarrassed in my life. I did it though to please him. I tried and tried to get his attention and I just couldn’t . I fought and fought. It was so draining. I had no desire to have a breast lift. I didn’t want surgery for cosmetic reasons. But I went just to make him happy.
        I look at myself now and say, you idiot! I just wanted to keep our family intact.
        Sarah, your husband sounds like a wonderful, caring man. They are out there. You were hurt terribly in the past, but I seriously I wouldn’t worry about him. There are always whores out there that can only flirt with men. They need the attention because they think so poorly of themselves.
        Enjoy your life with your beautiful family .

        • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 4:50 pm #

          Hello Rachel,

          I am very very sorry to hear about your situation. I am going to have to say that it might be best he is out of your life. The fact that he was dragging you to a surgeon to get a breast lift is REALLY emotionally abusive. I am all for women doing what they want to do with their appearance (surgery and everything) as long as it is the woman’s idea and she is not being forced into it by a man who considers her inadequate. Cosmetic surgery comes with many very real risks and it is not something that should be done under duress. I have never had surgery, but I have had friends who have had their breasts done and they all had a very rough time during recovery.

          It sounds like your ex was a true narcissist. The only thing to do is run when they come around. It is very painful that he left you. The things he did were unforgivable and then the emotional fallout is rough. You don’t deserve that.

          I am very sorry that your therapist has her hands tied. You might want to look for therapists in your area who take your insurance or who work on a sliding scale. Please don’t give up therapy just because your therapist cannot work with your finances. You need to be supported through this time because it does not matter how strong a woman is. When women encounter men like your ex, these men are experts at decimating a woman’s entire sense of self and wellbeing. So, please go and find a compassionate therapist who will guide you back to wholeness.

  62. Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 2:20 am #

    Hello Ladies,

    Well, I had yet another talk with my husband this evening about co-workers. It did not go well in the beginning and he was telling me to stop obsessing. But then I asked him just to hear me out, not take anything personally, and just think about it. I told him what had triggered the conversation and my discomfort. He finally understood at the end (I think).

    So, here is this backstory. As Trying said ‘there will always be more Tina’s’. Well, there has been another ‘Tina’ in the background that I have wondered if I should worry about. I will call this one ‘Lisa’. So, ‘Lisa’ is a new MD who has been working at his clinic. She is married and in her early 50’s. The first time I met her, I did not get any vibe at all. It was apparent she was busy learning the new job. The second time and anytime after that I met her, there were always the ‘dagger eyes’ when she looked at me. That tipped me off that I needed to send out my radar. Well, ‘Lisa’ has been trying to make my husband her confidante. Telling him sob stories, trying to get him to give her advice, telling him all kinds of personal things like the fact that she was buying a waterfront home. I found that out a few weeks ago and told him to keep a boundary with Lisa. So, recently, Lisa made up some elaborate story about why she needed a tummy tuck for medical reasons (not cosmetic reasons) so that she could get sick leave from work. Lisa has been telling my husband all these reasons. Well, her tummy tuck did not go well and her stitches broke and now apparently she will have extensive scarring. So, today, she showed up for work knowing how sick she was. Instead of seeing her surgeon, she demanded that my husband take her on as a patient. So, he had to do a full exam of this coworker’s oozing scar (with nurse’s present) while not knowing quite what to do. He told her to leave work (again) and she did not want to but wanted to stick the day out and have him care for her.

    When he told me this, I was pissed for many reasons and here they are:

    1. It is unethical to take your coworker on as a patient especially during a work day.

    2. Boundaries!!!!!

    3. This is not his f***ing job and he is not a surgeon and knows nothing about this.

    4. It is just plain icky and it is apparent to me that she is forcing herself on him in an attempt to get him to ‘rescue’ her. We all know how men like to rescue distressed maidens and she obviously knows this too.

    NOW, to be fair. If this would have been another female coworker, one who I trust, I would say it is really awkward and unethical, but I would not be pissed. Since it has been clear to me for quite some time that this woman is working up to something, this is why I am pissed.

    I will also say that 90% of his female coworkers I do trust. Further my distrust has nothing to do with a coworker being young or pretty. It has to do with the vibe the coworker throws off as well as her actions.

    So, what is the consensus ladies, did I have a right to tell him about my discomfort with this situation or was I just ‘obsessing’?

    • Strengthrequired May 15, 2014 at 7:01 am #

      Sarah, you definitely had a right to tell him. Can I just say, if I worked with dr’s and I needed treatment, especially something like your stomach or Pap smear, something personal, I would feel very uncomfortable seeing a coworker. I would prefer not to know the dr I see. Except as a dr. The only way I would see if it was for a cold and I needed antibiotics , lol.
      I remember seeing a eye specialist, one day, and my goodness, this optometrist is young, nice enough, but when he was checking my eyes, all the noises he was making with his breathing, as he was looking into my eyes, I just couldn’t restrain myself from cracking up laughing. He probably thought, what the hell is she laughing at. Yet you know something, I couldn’t see even an optometrist if I worked with them.
      I watch greys anatomy etc, and they all seem to have no problem in showing all their parts to each other when they need to see a dr, I think I would prefer to go to another hospital than those I work with.
      Maybe that’s just me, but there is only so much I want to share with coworkers and friends, or even relatives.
      So some women definitely have no boundaries, especially if it is to be an attempt of reeling an unsuspected man.

      • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 4:52 pm #

        Hey, I am in agreement with you. I see female doctors and ones who do not know my husband. The thought of seeing even a female coworker of his is GROSS.

  63. Tryinghard May 15, 2014 at 8:13 am #

    Sarah

    You had many good reasons to stay home. It’s hard when you’re a mother and making that decision to stay home or work. It’s important both ways. Sounds like you’re a very sharp woman and very I tuned to what’s going on around her. That’s good. If you learn anything from us is don’t trust naively.

    My forgiveness comes in layers. I felt ver pressured to forgive early by the MC and felt a lot of anxiety to do so. My husbands affair was not just emotional. It went very deep and for almost 4 years so it is taking me some time to process it all. I’m getting there but my antennae is always up. And I keep the fact that it is my choice to stay and I can always leave on the table. Works for me.

    Fear and anxiety? I could be a case study for you. I’m naturally anxious. I come from a long line of anxious people but I live with anxiety everyday since the betrayal.

    • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 4:55 pm #

      Hi Trying,

      Wow, you are a much better woman than I could ever be. If a betrayal went that deep, I am not sure I could stay. I also do not know if I could exist in the same city without take some kind of action against the OW, such as outing her to everyone. But it sounds like your h’s OW has gotten bitten by karma badly and is dying of rare cancer. I would not wish such a situation even on my worst enemy. So, in that case, what goes around comes around.

  64. Tryinghard May 15, 2014 at 8:23 am #

    Sarah

    Yes you had the right to talk to him about it. At least he’s telling you but don’t let that be a positive sign. Many times husbands will tell you about things like this and still have an affair. I’m just afraid he will quit telling to avoid conversation about it. He already knows how sensitive you are to these women.

    I don’t understand that once he says No, they keep haranguing him and being insistent and he just can’t reiterate and say, I told you NO, and stick to it. Why is he allowing other people to put him in situations he doesn’t want to be in? That is NOT professional nor is it good management skills. Let’s face it, a nurse could have assessed her situation AND she’s a doctor herself.

    I don’t know. You want him to tell you but on the other hand you have to be careful how you handle it so he doesn’t stop telling you. He needs to stand up for what he says and quit being pushed around by these women.

    • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 5:00 pm #

      Trying,

      You are right– and he even said last night I run the risk of him not telling me stuff. So, I am trying to cool down and back off. As for these women, I have met them and they are more aggressive than most women I have ever encountered. Plus, he works in a facility where there is a lot of unprofessionalism. They all work in a large open area with computers side by side. All of the nurses broadcast every part of their intimate lives, including their bowel habits, to the whole office. All of the women are touchy feely with each other and say what is on their mind. He has actually been criticized by coworkers because he has said many time ‘do not touch me’. Well, luckily they don’t touch him but they still complain about it. He commutes to his job and works in a part of the city where the clinic is next to a large inner city hospital. The coworkers that this attracts are not the cream of the crop if you get my gist. Most of his coworkers have many issues and they blab freely about their issues day and night to everyone. Even patients overhear. So, I feel like part of it is the mood of the clinic. He has a very nice boss who is a young father, but his boss is very laid back and doesn’t really do anything to stop it. It’s just a weird place, if you ask me.

  65. gizfield May 15, 2014 at 9:36 am #

    I think all employers should establish an anonymous ReportaWhore line line. I just saw a chick walk into my building wearing 8 inch whore shoes and skintight, shiny yellow leggings I guess you would call them cause they certainly didn’t qualify as pants.

    • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 5:03 pm #

      Seriously? You wonder which coworker shiny-pants lady is having an affair with. I am all for a ReportAwhore line. That is awesome!

      Can I ask what industry you work in? I mean, is it a professional corporate type industry where these clothes normally are not worn? If so, that makes it all the worse. I worked in info-technology and women like that got sent to HR on the very first offense. They did not tolerate that type of dress.

  66. Strengthrequired May 15, 2014 at 10:20 am #

    Yesterday, I mentioned we had good news, that our home was under contract for sale, and the bank was willing to let us use some of the proceeds if the sale goes through to pay off some debts.
    I was hesitant about getting to excited, because every time, something comes up to throw us off track again.
    Well guess what, we received a letter from the bank, they are looking at taking action to take our home of us that we are looking at moving back into, so our family can be together.
    So now, I feel if the bank takes our home off of us, then it’s a sign we are not to be together anymore, because we have been kept apart for two years, and every time we tried to get help with our financial situation, we would get some good news, then that news backfired on us, and just dragged us down further.
    How can two people that have fought so hard to be together, and work so hard to hold onto all we have built together over our time together, just keep getting nowhere fast.
    Why is it, every time we try and be together, we are being kept apart.
    Why is it, we keep seeming to lose everything, our history is getting wiped clean. Everything we have worked hard for, so we have something to leave our children in our passing, is slowly being lost piece by piece.
    Here we were planning on moving back, so we can be together, as a family, and then this.
    I just sent a text message telling my h, that if we lose our home, I will take it as though we are nolonger meant to be together, because something is keeping us apart. I feel if I stay with him, if the bank takes our home, that next will be my h business. I just can’t have him lose that too.
    I told him if the bank stands by their word yesterday, and we nolonger have to worry about them taking our home and we get to move back home so we can be together, then it is meant to be. It will be a sign that things are getting better for us, and we are nolonger being kept apart.
    I feel so overwhelmed right now, because all we have tried, to keep our family together, just feels like we keep being kept apart instead.
    When does it end…..

    • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 5:08 pm #

      Strength,

      You need an excellent attorney who knows about asset protection. You need someone to hold the bank accountable. These attorneys exist in the U.S. and some are very good. This is one of the things my aunt does.

      I do not see this as a sign that you are meant to be kept apart. I see this as a sign of the economic times. Also, in the U.S., even though we bailed out the banks with tax money and the banks were supposed to give people a pass because of that, they are actually screwing over the American people. Banks are in the business of making money. Their greediness has nothing to do with you. I say call them and tell them you expect them to stick to the original resolution plan. And do not back down.

      But please, do not ever think this is some kind of ‘sign’ that you are supposed to be divorced.

  67. tryinghard May 15, 2014 at 10:29 am #

    Sarah

    One other thought I had with regards to a conversation with your husband.

    How about you explain to him that you know when you are getting negative vibes from females with whom he associates and it is getting quite tedious for you. You have bigger fish to fry taking care of your family and your studies. You don’t want to be the warden or the person who has to constantly make him aware of others agendas. That is actually HIS responsibility. When he tells you about these occurrences you are willing to listen and give him your opinion and that you hope he will take your opinion seriously and make the necessary changes. You understand it is part of his personality to be friendly and a people-pleaser. That you cannot change about him nor would you want to. It is part of why you fell in love with him. His personal largess is not limited to only you and your relationship with him. There are however boundaries and he knows what they are. When he tells someone NO in unequivocal terms that should be the final answer. He does not owe anything to these co-workers. He knows that people have agendas and maybe he isn’t so good at spotting them. That is also his problem not yours. Explain that his acquiescing to the demands of these very obvious females is putting you in a very personally uncomfortable position and is pleasing them more important to him than a peaceful relationship with you?

    Put the ball in his court so he is responsible for his own actions. Often these “people-pleasers” are the ones that can’t say no when it comes to others who want more from them. Make him be the one who will want to understand that there are those who will take advantage of his good nature for there own good.

    My husband and I had a discussion which at one point once I’d said “…well blah, blah, blah, you should have said, blah, blah, blah…” He got a glazed look over his eyes and said he wished he had one of those strings that the Chatty Cathy dolls had and that it was filled with recordings of things he should say in certain situations!!! LOL I agreed and am looking for a surgical procedure for just that. I think some men truly don’t know what to say, especially to women, when they put them in situations like this.

    BTW the in laws are back from Florida and they are worse than ever! Mothers Day was awful because the MIL decided to be her typical Narcissistic self and threw a fit. I walked outside because mercifully it happened at the end of the meal but my husband was in a funk the rest of the day because of it!! UGH I swear she will live to be 100. Vampires never die!

    • Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 5:12 pm #

      Hi Trying,

      Wow, that is all really great advice. I might copy and paste that into a letter and edit it and then email it to him. Well said!

      So what happened with your narc mother in law? Go ahead and dish! I want to hear it!

      As for my narc in-laws, same old same old. My husband did not want to take the time to do something for his mom so I sent the flowers and the card and signed it from all of us. She texted him to thank him and did not acknowledge the rest of us. (Typical). But, it used to be that my father in law would text me and call me to wish me a happy mother’s day. This is the first year he did not even text. Since he has retired and since he is with my MIL all the time, she has told him he is not allowed to text me or even talk to me. She is such a ‘lovely’ person. Too bad because my FIL is a decent fellow, even though he is an enabler.

  68. Gizfield May 15, 2014 at 11:03 am #

    Strength, I dont think the business with your house is a sign of anything about your marriage, I do think it’s a sign that most banks, insurance companies, mortgage companies, etc are predatory pricks who love to kick you when you are already down. We had a flood four years ago and these people have been awful. Please don’t be discouraged by them.

    • Strengthrequired May 15, 2014 at 9:38 pm #

      Thanks Sarah, we have an attorney already on board. Yet I think I am just deflated.

    • Strengthrequired May 15, 2014 at 9:40 pm #

      Giz, Thankyou too, as I said to Sarah, I’m just deflated, deflated from everything. I guess I just have to wait and see how the wind blows.

  69. Sarah P. May 15, 2014 at 6:18 pm #

    Hi Ladies,

    Here is a funny and assertive quote that I heard today that I wanted to share.

    Of course, this wisdom came from the least likely of sources. In the past couple of years, Cartoon Network re-made the original Looney Tunes series with Bugs and Daffy. Only, in the modern version, it plays out more like a very dysfunctional sit-com for adults. Bugs is a self-sufficient millionnaire who lives in suburbia. He lives with his best friend, Daffy. But in this version, Daffy is a raging narcissist, a terrible mooch, and a paranoiac who doesn’t even pay for rent. Daffy is alway getting into trouble with his pyramid schemes or his mooching and lying. So in this episode I was watching with my kids, Daffy had set a trap for all of the neighbors in the neighborhood to catch the neighbor who he falsely believed was stealing his morning newspaper. When Bugs found out, he confronted Daffy, but Daffy would not back down. So, Bugs rolled up his sleeves and told him to cease and desist or else. Daffy still refused and so Bugs said very calmly:

    “If you go there, then I will also have to go there. And you do not want to be there when I get there. Because when I get there, I will be so there that you were wish you would have stayed right where you are and never went there.”

    Okay, I think this is a classic quote. I love it.

    It’s one of those zingers you can repeat if the other woman, or anyone else in your life, refuses to cease and desist in terms of their hurtful behavior. I like it because it is assertive without being specifically threatening, yet it gets the point across loud and clear.

    Zing!

  70. Tryinghard May 15, 2014 at 10:52 pm #

    Sarah

    I’m glad you thought what I had to say is helpful. I really think you will drive yourself mad if you feel like you are the one who has to control these situations. I think next time something like that happens and he recounts it to you just listen to the whole story first. Let him tell you without reacting to it or getting angry about it. The LAST thing you want is for him to not tell you. Wait a while, a day or so and really gather your thoughts and words and have a sit down with saying so etching like what I said. Put the onus on him to control his Mister Nice Guy behavior. Being nice is great but he needs to draw the line.sometimes nice and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks and totally screwed over! Sounds cynical but it’s true.

    I chalked up so much about my suspicions and dismissed all the red flags during my husbands affair because I thought I was being a drama queen and wanted to be nice and accommodating to my husband. That behavior worked against me. I was nice to my own detriment. I’ll never be that nice again.

    Ugh, my MIL. Mother’s Day was planned to eat at the Country Club. It was an expensive brunch but we decided to go there because we thought it would be a safe place to go. She wouldn’t act out there because that is where she puts on her great shows. The only problem was we made a late reservation so it was almost empty. She sat there and wouldn’t eat. Said she was sick. My SIL made her a plate and she refused it. My H got up and made her a plate and she gobbled it down!! Ate two desserts and she’s diabetic. At the end I could see this dark glaze coming over her eyes and I could tell she was ready to let go. Well finally she looked at my H and me and said “all I want for Mother’s Day is an hour of your time”. Well I told my H “and she’s off!” With that I got up and walked to the car. He stayed back a while and she proceeded to chew him out for never having time or doing anything for her. He was down the rest of the day. Beautiful day ruined. That was her plan. The only good thing when she does that is my H won’t want to speak or see her for a while so I’m off the hook for that. It’s a mess. My FIL wants to sell the house and move to an mixed assisted care living in our town. The house is a complete disaster and he says he’s sick of living in the squalor.

    Now I would love to go over for an hour but there would have to be a huge dumpster there first. I could get that dump cleared out in no time. Hehe she won’t let me near it. She’s accusing people of stealing from here.

    Hell it goes on and on. I am really mentally separating myself from it and letting my H and his sister handle it. But it puts a strain on us and the marriage. He gets very down and defeated by her and the mess of her life.

    Not to mention my little grandson had to have outpatient surgery yesterday to remove a growth on his knee. Hopefully it’s a cyst but the surgeon didn’t say. We will find out next week what it is. I don’t dare think it’s anything worse at the moment.

    So as you can see when it rains, it pours. I’m truly weary of the challenges. I just want a cottage on the coast of Normandy. Living peacefully by my self! That’s my fantasy. I don’t need a damn affair for my fantasies:)

    • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 2:15 am #

      Hello Trying,

      Wow, we have the same mother in law. Luckily I don’t have to see mine on mothers day. Do you live in the same city as your in-laws? (I sure hope not, but it sounds like it).

      And yes, all that you say about my situation makes sense.

  71. Tryinghard May 15, 2014 at 10:57 pm #

    Sorry for the typos but I hope you can muddle through them. Haven’t even touched on the fact that my son raised havoc because he feels I am being disloyal to him because I am friendly to his ex wife. SHES THE MOTHER OF MY GRANDSON. he doesn’t get why I’m being nice to her. It’s only for my grandson sake. Were it not for him, I’m sure I’d have nothing to do with his ex wife! Ugh…it just keeps going.

    I swear to God i am surrounded by assholes

    HAS ANYONE SEEN MY XANAX?????

    • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 2:18 am #

      Trying,

      I get it– I get why you are nice to your son’s ex-wife. You are emotionally mature and so that is normal.

      Geez, my mother in law cannot figure out how to be nice to me even though I am married to her son. The last time we saw my in-laws, my mother in law pulled my 8-year-old by the arm and yelled in his face “Your dad needs to divorce her!! Even his first wife was better than this!!” Of course, she didn’t talk about the part of how she broke up my h’s first marriage and chased his wife away after only 6 months.

      Hmm… then my mother in law says I victimize her by not allowing my kids to stay at her home unattended.

      Sheesh.

      • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 2:42 am #

        Are you serious Sarah, what a hide. I doubt your don would want to be alone with his grandmother. I wouldn’t especially if she says things like that to your son. What did your h say? That’s shocking.
        Sounds like the first wife, didn’t want to take the inlaws crap, it’s a shame because he will end up with no one if his mother keeps chasing away the wives.
        Don’t worry, my fil, chased away my bil first wife, she was easier for him to get rid of then me, yet he definitely tried. Telling my h, I can find you a good woman. This one here is no good, she is on drugs and will run away with your children.
        Hello I was 18 when I first met him, and I was definitely nothing like what he made out I was.
        Ha, I guess I proved him wrong 6 kids later and still stood by him after his ea.

        • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 2:43 am #

          I should say, I proved the fil wrong after standing by my h 6 kids later and a ea under his belt.

        • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 1:52 pm #

          Hello Strength,

          So you too have dealt with the meddling in-laws who want to break up a marriage. My in-laws tried to break up my husband’s first marriage during the ceremony itself. My MIL FAKED a heart attack. After it was determined she was faking, the ceremony went on. After the marriage, my MIL sent a constant barrage (about his first wife) about how terrible she is, about how she disrespects him, etc. So, my husband would question this and start to wonder if it’s true. Simultaneously, they would do really shitty things to his first wife like tell her that she stole from them. Apparently, it happened daily. Six months later she left.

          Now, to put this all in perspective so that you see my in-laws are flawed in their views, my H met his first wife in medical school. She was an ivy league graduate, a very classy European woman, and she did runway modeling on weekends to pay tuition. I have seen her picture before and she is happily married to someone else and has two kids. I wish her no ill will. In fact, she has a really great blog where she posts about healthy living and organic foods and I read it occasionally. My husband still talks about that time in his life and I always say, “It’s okay. I can see why you fell in love with her and I am never offended that a part of you still hurts.” Funnily enough, she is someone I would probably befriend in the real world if circumstances were different.

          • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 1:53 pm #

            PS-
            To clarify, my husband’s ex was also in med school with him. She is now a successful doctor who is occasionally on television.

            • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 5:33 pm #

              Ohhh yes Sarah, have been through it. That’s why I am amazed I’m still married to my h. Yet I consider myself lucky that they haven’t been living in the same country as us, for years. Definately gave me that well deserved break I needed. Ohhhh the arguments they would cause my h and I. Yet my h would always end up not talking to his father. Whenever my fil would call us when he was here and I would answer, we only had the two kids at the time, he would say ” helloooooooo, how are youuuuuuuuu. I would like to speak to my son pleaseeeeeee. “.
              Like he was talking to a child or something. Could never talk normally. As well like I didn’t know he wanted to talk to his son, he never called to just talk to me. Lol
              I swear, my h would drag us to his fathers place every day, and we would stay there for hours on end. Yet everyday, I never has a descent conversation with his father and stepmother. Always would drag him away, and sic the kids onto me.
              So once they left, I think again without telling my h, it was peaceful again. Well until it and her family decided to make a move.

              • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 8:52 pm #

                Strength,

                Can I ask what cultural group these people are from? You are implying they might not be native English speakers.

                My in-laws are Jews as you know, but they speak Russian. And no, their cultural issues are neither Russian nor Jewish. However, There is a very outward racism toward me on their part because I am not a 100% (ethnically) Russian Jew like themselves. It’s funny because if I were that genetically NON-diverse, or kids would run the risks of getting several diseases, some of them deadly, that are found in large amounts in that population. The issues with the Russian Jewish population is that they inter-married for so many generations.

                YET, my in-laws always drop comments about how I am not ‘one of them’ because I am not genetically ‘100% Russian Jewish’, which my mother in law freely claims is a master race and genetically superior. I AM NOT KIDDING!

                That has always been a hilarious concept to me and I have pointed out to my husband that an ethnic population that was decimated during WW2 because of genetic cleansing should not be so quick to point the finger at folks who they claim are genetically inferior. (And those who are inferior is anyone who is not a 100% Russian Jew). Anyhow…

                Those are my in-laws!

                I asked my husband recently if I could write a book about my in-laws (without using any identifying details) under a pen name. I have so many crazy stories that would make a good movie script. He actually laughed and said to ‘go for it.’ He said they deserve it.

                • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 8:53 pm #

                  PS-
                  I am partially Russian Jewish (mom’s side) and the rest is Northern European, French, and Italian.

                • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 9:13 pm #

                  Let’s just say, I’m not from there race. 100percent different. Lol. Which if course is why they have never accepted me, and yes they think that anyone who isn’t the same is beneath them. Hence cousin it and her family too. Why she seemed to think she had the almighty power to get rid of me.
                  Proved her wrong too hey, lol.
                  These people I married into, will not speak English in front of you, even if they know how. If you are in a room of them and are the only one that does not speak their language, even if they know how to, they will just speak their language. If someone they know does not speak English, then they will just speak the language for them, with no English at all.
                  Very rude, I’m still not used to how rude they can be. Especially to someone of not the ethic background.
                  As I mentioned one time, they wanted to take my first born away from me, to teach him the ways of their world.

                  • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 9:19 pm #

                    Ohh, they too are from a race that inter marry.

                  • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 9:36 pm #

                    Strength,

                    Once again, they sound like my in-laws. So, here is a typical scenario with my mother in law. She will sit there and complain (in English) about how the Russians did not help Jews during WW2. She will say she hates them. At the same time, she will interject into the conversation (in English) about how wonderfully she speaks English since it is not her first language.

                    BUT THEN…
                    If she is ticked at me (which is about 95% of the time) she will speak Russian. If we ask her to speak English, she will say in an over-dramatic way “my English is sooo poor… how can you expect an old woman like me to speak English. Russian is my language. I love Russian”.

                    I kid you not.

                    Then she will continue in Russian. Now, my husband’s first language is English and his Russian is not great. But when he is with his parents, they refuse to talk to him if he speaks English. So he sits there, jumbling through Russian each time, and can never hold a conversation as an equal. (Obviously this is intended on their part. It makes them automatically get the upper hand in conversations).

                    When we first got married and my MIL found out that (at the time) I was fluent in French, she looked me in the face and said :”What a stupid language. It’s useless. That is so stupid you did not study Russian. I talk to you in Russian from now on because you have to learn.”

                    I did try to learn but did not get far.

                    When she found out that I had originally studied to be a teacher (not a corporate manager) and taught for 2 years, she she said I wasted my money because “only stupid people are teachers.” She repeated that phrase many times. That got me riled up because I do have extremely strong (and positive) opinions about those who choose to be teachers. To get started, teachers influence the next generation, they get our children ready for the work force, they work long hours without adequate pay… that’s just a start. I remember telling her that and then she just called me ‘stupid’ for having those opinions. SERIOUSLY.

                    As far as trying to take your first-born, CHECK.
                    My MIL tried to do that too. It was very insulting. I am so happy that I have my parents.

                    • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 10:20 pm #

                      My fil never spoke to me, he always badgered me to my husband, to try and get him to see that I was no good for his reasonings. My h would tell me afterwards what was said. Ask him now though he does not remember. Yet, I remember everything.
                      I’m thankful for my parents too.

  72. Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 12:30 am #

    So it’s pouring where you are too th? Fun huh.
    I like the fantasy, I don’t need an affair to have my fantasy either. Now what’s my fantasy again? I can’t remember. Definitely know my fantasy gas no idiotic men or women involved.

  73. Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 2:43 am #

    Hello Everyone,

    Now I am having another ‘moment’. The drama never ends at my husband’s workplace and there was another incident today that he told me about. I am venting because I feel like I am living on the twilight zone and I am wondering what the heck is going on. Am I the problem?

    So here is what he told me. Since I sent ‘Tina’ that email telling her that we will meet for coffee and to name a time, Tina has been leaving my h alone. (If you remember, Tina never answered that email, even though she demanded dinner with my husband and me).

    But today she did not leave him alone. They all sit in an open area with computers and chairs elbow to elbow. My husband picks a seat where a filing cabinet is on one side (not a person) so that there is only one chair next to him.

    So here is what my h reports:

    Well, his boss, with whom he is good friends, took that seat next to him and then left to see a patient. Tina arrives for her shift and plops down in the seat where the boss is sitting. My husband politely told her that the boss was already sitting there and logged into the computer. Well, she said she did not care and logged the boss out and logged herself in.She did not move. So the boss returns from the room and tells Tina that she took his seat. Then he politely asks her to move because he and my husband were going over some things together. Tina refuses to move and sits between my husband and his boss all day while they are trying to get work done.

    If you also remember, Tina told my husband off a few weeks ago when she found out that my husband and I had dinner with the boss and his wife. That was also the event that caused her to send me that second email informing me that my husband and I would have dinner in her home that week. And that was the email I replied to saying “Hey Tina, our schedules are always busy because of kids. Lets you and I get together and have a girl’s coffee, just the two of us. Name a time”.

    So, Tina is back at it– sitting next to my husband, getting into his personal space and trying to dump all of her personal problems on him.

    So what was my reaction?

    Did I get angry? No, I never actually get angry in a way that is visible but I am nit passive aggressive either. I speak frankly in a neutral voice about how I feel. No accusations, no passive aggressiveness, and no bull. I say what I mean and mean what I say without raising my voice.

    This time I told him that Tina’s behavior is inappropriate and aggressive. Then I said this: “So let’s suppose that I still worked in my corporate job and there was a particular male always sitting next to me, always trying to get me to listen to him complain about his wife, always wanting my time, always asking for dinner, and being really pushy about it. Would you feel okay with it if I decided to befriend this person?”

    He thought about it and said “Good point. I would find it weird and not like it.”

    (Duh!!)

    So, I said, what do you think you will do about it?

    Then he said the next time it happens, he will tell her she needs to leave the seat open.

    I highly doubt this will work and I told him so. Then I said that he can tell her that, and then if she does not stop, I will likely call his boss for a small chat.

    Well, he did not like that so he promised to put a stop to it.

    Then, I thought of something else I could do. The place he works in is short staffed and they are always begging for volunteers to come in and help. I asked him if it would be alright if I came in, perhaps twice a month, as a volunteer during his shift. He said that would be okay. Then I said if Tina does not cut it out, there may come a day when I volunteer on days that she works with him. He asked me not to volunteer just because of Tina. And I replied that I have been thinking about volunteering for a while because it would be fun to work with him occasionally. (And that is true). Then I said that the fact that I am present is going to send a message to any Tinas that we are all about family. So, he said that would be alright with him.

    Now, I have been thinking about volunteering there for quite a while since I would like to be employed by this company he works for at some point. Its owned by a large HMO and it is a great place to work. I have been thinking for some time about volunteering because of this since the company has flexible schedules and great benefits. (And they employ a lot of therapists). And it is also true that I would like to show up with treats and a smile on my face and ‘be present’ just to show that I am not just ‘a dumb stay-at-home mom’ since it is clear that is what these Tinas and Lisas believe they are up against.

    But my biggest question is, WHY DOES TINA THINK SHE OWNS MY HUSBAND?

    This is becoming incredibly creepy– like bunny boiling creepy. I know it seems trivial that Tina won’t move chairs, but if you saw the office layout you would see that she works elbow to elbow, can see his computer screen, can hear every conversation, and can even open his cell phone if he accidentally leaves it on the work desk. I am not kidding.

    If I were a therapist and a client were telling me all of this, I would say ‘something is rotten in Denmark, sweetie’. Well, we know something is rotten– I am just trying to figure out the ‘whys’ and ‘what fors’.

    Any ideas, ladies?

  74. Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 2:55 am #

    PS-

    It is also my impression that “Tina” is doing everything possible short of telling my h to go f*** her in the broom closet. (Heck, maybe she had even said that– who knows.) But it makes it clear that is what she is up to.

    So, I genuinely do not believe he has cheated. I have thought about it, talked to my best friend for hours– I have even talked to my mom since she is also my good friend. Neither of them believe he has cheated either.

    But, if he has not cheated, I feel like we are on the cusp of something happening. I feel like Tina has been trying to wear him down over and over again. After all, she has nothing to lose. She has no children. She is not married but rather living with a fellow. She has no assets to split– no other ‘lives’ to think about other than her own. Since she lives with someone, she probably feels she can keep up the pressure indefinitely because she doesn’t lose either way.

    Whereas the stakes in my case are high. First there is the heartbreak and betrayal. Then there is the splitting of assets, the heartbroken children, the uncertain future, and the possibility that a home would get sold off. This is not going to be okay with me and this will be a case where I am going to fight like a momma grizzly bear.

    Am I reading too much into this? This is really what my intuition tells me is going on and I feel sick to my stomach. My intuition has not told me that an affair has occurred but that Tina is going to keep wearing him down and won’t stop until she succeeds. That is my sick gut feeling.

    And of you do agree that I am not over-reacting, what to do next?

  75. Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 3:04 am #

    I think Sarah it is good to do the volunteering. Show Tina, your not a dumb ass, your a smart intelligent woman, who also happens to be a happily married w and mother.
    I actually think the boss wasn’t demanding enough. If a boss told me to move, I move, I don’t refuse and just stay there. She needs to know who the boss is and listen.
    The boss should have made her move, he should have said, now listen Tina, I need you to come to one of the empty rooms and I need to talk to you. As I know he would not have wanted to do this in front of patients. Yet he should have used his authority over her, and not just give in to her, because she is an idiot and doesn’t want to cause drama.
    Maybe what your h should do, is tell Tina listen, I’m here to work, I’m not here to listen to your troubles, I find how you behave towards me inappropriate, and I have no intention on having anything more than a working relationship with you. I have a beautiful w, who I am madly inlove with, and I have a wonderful young family that take up my time when I am not working. I also did not appreciate how you crammed yourself I between the boss and myself, while we were going through some things together. I had told you he was sitting there, yet you did not care, then when the boss told you to move, you refused as well. This is a professional practice, let’s please be professional.

    • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 5:33 pm #

      Strength,

      So yes, I need to look into volunteering. It will be good to work near him for many reasons. The good news is, I get along great with 99% of his co-workers. The only one I don’t get along with are the Tina’s and Lisa’s.

      Strength, how are you feeling today? News from the bank?

      • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 6:00 pm #

        We have to just keep everything crossed that the sale goes ahead, so we should know in a weeks time.
        I might go stir crazy, within that time.
        I’ve had something else, I too am struggling with.
        My h has clients that want him to do work in different states, which may at times require him to stay several nights. ATM, it is no difference if he does this work now, because we are away anyway. Yet although this work is good and we need it, I don’t want to be apart any night, once we move back. I told my h my concerns, I told him that I feel selfish because I know it us for work, but I feel like I deserve to be selfish after all we have been through. I also told him, that I don’t want that space between us, because I also didn’t want any tramp finding that space and using it. I told him, it is called protecting what’s mine.
        Honestly, I feel like I’m a warden at a prison, for feeling like this. Yet I can’t help it.

        Sarah, be there and in the face, lol. I’m glad you do those things, I guess some of us, get so comfortable , and raising and chasing after the kids, we forgot that small thing, like waiting at the door, like we used to, is such a good thing for a marriage. Yet I don’t think as well that it isn’t just on the wives to do all the nice things, the h has to as well. We both have to protect what’s ours.

        • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 9:40 pm #

          Strength,

          If I were you, I would not want my husband traveling to other states. I would pretty much tell him to take a pay cut if need be. (But you may not be in that position). Your h can find customers nearby. I would not open the door to travel. There is too much at stake here and you two are still rebuilding. He needs to be with you during this stressful time– not apart.

          • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 10:28 pm #

            I’m glad you think I’m not being selfish. Yet I do feel entitled to be lol.
            Unfortunately as we are still trying to keep what we have, there really isn’t much choice at the moment, but quite honestly, if I move back down there, I don’t want to be us to be apart anymore. Especially due to us needing to rebuild our lives together.
            Unfortunately he sees it as though we are together, we need to continue moving ahead, and well work is work, if he needs to travel once a month then he has to, to keep the payments going through. This client does I give him work in our state too, just they also have other states they get him to work in.
            Sometimes I feel though, that I am going to end up being to demanding on him, and it will be just too much on him.
            I just don’t think he gets why he needs to be home everyday. He just tells me, I’m working, not playing…..
            That just pisses me off lol.

            • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 10:32 pm #

              Ohh and I just keep seeing how, he was able to push me aside behind his work for so long, then as soon as she comes along, he pushes me behind again, but not only that his business was put behind her as well. She was put in front of everything, his business, his wife and kids and his friends.
              I just don’t understand how I can’t have that, do you know what I mean?

              • Sarah P. May 17, 2014 at 12:08 am #

                Strength,

                I still don’t quite understand the full spectrum of what occurred with cousin it.

                I get the sense that somehow she was so involved in your h’s business that she was partially responsible for your current financial troubles. Did she embezzle money or something? Did she cause him to lose work?

                As for your marriage, your h needs to understand that he needs to be present with you– both emotionally and physically. He appears to throw up roadblocks to intimacy whether it means that he works too much or he travels. He does not seem to be comfortable with emotional intimacy and really letting someone get close. Just an impression.

                So were his parents emotionally abusive?

                We know for sure your h’s parents are controlling, rude, and have some pretty wacky ideas of what it means to be family. Usually when that level of dysfunction is present you can bet there is also emotional abuse. It’s pretty hard to be that dysfunction and NOT abuse. They go hand in hand.

                So do you think he puts up emotional roadblocks that prevent full intimacy? (I would think he does but also believe it is NOT conscious on his part).

                • Strengthrequired May 17, 2014 at 12:31 am #

                  Sarah, no she never had anything to do with the business, of course when my h was struggling financially due to not being emotionally well due to the ea, she would see him trying hard to get back into work, but always had him,on the phone with her, always getting him to take her places, help her….
                  She saw how emotionally stressed he was, how he wanted his family, but she always made herself in his face.
                  She would make sure he was spending on her, and her family, made he get your a place to live, by making him feel guilty for not being there for her, during her terrible marriage. So he paid her rent, and it wasn’t cheap either.
                  So with the stress of wanting to be with his family, stress of her guilt tripping him, stress of not being able to concentrate on the business, stress of all the bills mounting up, stress of non paying customers etc, it was just way too much on him.
                  His concentration was just non existent.. He was unable to function like he normally would have, so he was feeling more and more like a failure.
                  It took a long time to get him back to being able to concentrate, and honestly it didn’t really start happening until he broke free of her.
                  So that’s why, the ea, financially crippled us, and emotionally destroyed our family.
                  So that’s why he works so hard now, his way of making amends to me and to himself.
                  So this is why as well, he seizes the opportunity to work with customers that actually do pay. So that’s why travel isn’t too much of a concern to him, because they pay.
                  Cousin it did try, while with him to advise him on our business, which she has no clue about, sticking her nose in where it is not wanted. The reason I know is because, she called one of their relatives to get him to help my h and offered my h advise on who else he should ask for help, in which I immediately sent her a message, advising her that our business is not her concern, she has no clue, and it is my business and my husbands business, we do not need her interference. I had actually already spoken to his relative beforehand, as he used to work for us, and had already advised my h on who can help him.
                  I let her know that we started this business together, she can p off.

                  • Strengthrequired May 17, 2014 at 12:48 am #

                    You know Sarah, when you only have the one income coming into your family, you can lose ground pretty fast, when you have an outsider such as ow, grabbing all she can. It doesn’t take long for it to get all too much on the cs, because really he is paying to keep his family, and it doesn’t matter which way you look at it, also another family as well, at the same time.

                  • Sarah P. May 17, 2014 at 12:52 am #

                    Wow, Strength. That is some serious enmeshment. It must be infuriating that he was financially supporting her with the money your family needed. I would have been livid.

                    She is and was not his responsibility in any way, shape, or form. But worse, the money that was spent on her was money your family needed– especially since his business was going through a tough time at that point.

                    Cousin It must be a sociopath because this type of behavior goes beyond being just a borderline personality. She has no conscience and the fact that she could not empathize with your family’s situation has ‘sociopath’ written all over it. And then she kept after him, continually, even after knowing the devastation she was causing. She has no empathy or remorse towards the situation, or so it seems. (Another reason I brand her as having sociopathic tendencies).

                    So sorry she put you through all this. So, yes, you must continue to protect what is yours and be a fierce momma lion, if need be.

                    • Strengthrequired May 17, 2014 at 2:18 am #

                      You know what really got me with her, is even when she sold her house, and had loads of money to support herself, she still took money from him, still expected him to pay the same for her kids as what he does for his own. She still wouldn’t leave the apartment my h leased, or even change it to her name, when she did the realtor wouldn’t give us our bond back, they kept it because it had damages.
                      Yet here he was struggling, and she didn’t even offer to give him any money back like she told him she would. She also had the nerve to still chase after him. I just think what an idiot my h was to have fallen for such rubbish.

  76. Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 3:23 am #

    Sarah, I don’t think your h has cheated either. I think you just need to keep reminding him, when he is home how important he is to you, how much you love him, how you appreciate all his hard work, while you are home raising the children. Keep reminding him, where his bread gets buttered, men like to know that all the time. Send him little messages throughout the day, like love you babe….. He will always be reminded that his family is not worth losing over any Tina’s or Lisa’s . Keep him happy, always give him a huge welcome home pash as you meet him at the door after work. Doing that any stressful day he has had at work will fade away. Be the first one to the door before the kids.
    I started doing the waiting at the door for him to come inside after the ea, came out, honestly works wonders.
    I always let my h know how much I loved him, but when he cheated, he was vulnerable. Not in his right mind. I never thought he would cheat, so I’m telling you cover all bases, and I would keep my guard up, when it comes to floozies like the ow, because they are persistant and they do know what they are doing, don’t underestimate them, because men can be manipulated by them, especially with persistent inappropriate attention. They will strike, when the man is at his lowest. As I said these ow aren’t stupid.
    So remaining one step ahead, without making your h feel he is being seen as untrustworthy, especially when he has done nothing wrong. He may take it as, he may as well just do it, if he is going to be accused of it, iykwim.
    Yet, your h has to be upfront with these types of ow to begin with, just being nice, so not to offend, doesn’t work. These ow like the descent man, that is that knight in shining armour type, who is also willing to hear all of her sob stories, because he doesn’t want to upset her.
    Well I say, tough, a husband has his first priority, and that is to his wife and children. So the welfare, safety and well being of them comes first, not whether he is going to upset an ow, that has her own agenda. He needs to be more stern, with these types of women.

    • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 5:31 pm #

      Strength,
      That is great advice about keeping the love flowing in the house. I do already meet him for a hug and kiss at the door. (It also helps that he comes in the door by the kitchen and I am there fixing dinner).

      I do a lot of those things that the 1950’s wife allegedly did: home-cooked gourmet meals, hugs and kisses for the husband, doing the best possible with my appearance (although I have my days where I don’t!). I tell him I love him and appreciate him each day, usually in different ways. I try to make it known I am his #1 fan.

      But then, we also like to go to movies together or on a date.

      So, I am pro-active, to say the least.

  77. Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 3:25 am #

    The reason I say, to do the things that keep the love flowing through your home, is because, every time you give your h that love, he is going to want to keep giving it back to you.

  78. Rachel May 16, 2014 at 6:52 am #

    Can I just say that this person (not woman) Tina is UNBELIVABLE!
    my mouth hangs opened hearing these stories.

  79. Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 8:20 am #

    Rachel, it’s hard to believe sometimes, that there are woman around that will deliberately go after a married man, or an already taken man, with out any regard to the woman he is committed to. These woman are leeches….

  80. tryinghard May 16, 2014 at 3:13 pm #

    Sarah

    Yes my in-laws live in the same town. Walking distance from our home even! My FIL and my husband are business partners. Can’t get away from them. They go to FL in the winter for around 4 months and that is the only relief. My FIL is also very nice and a total enabler to my MIL. Actually I blame him a lot! He could have put his foot down long age. She’s run roughshod over him, her mother, her grandchildren, her son and daughter their whole lives and he’s only stood there and either agreed with her egging her on or not saying a damn thing. This makes him a very effete, pathetic man in my eyes. I do not feel sorry for him. I can at least have a somewhat decent conversation with him. Of course the whole world vilifies my MIL and deservedly so, BUT my FIL has certainly played a big role into her bad behavior as well. I think when she wages a war with someone else she is off his ass for a while so it works for him when she turns on one of us. This is NOT ok with me and I have as little regard for him as I do her.

    Tina’s an ass with an agenda. No doubt. Your husband surely sees that. I hope he’s smart enough to keep his distance. Can’t believe she acted so stupid in front of her boss. Why wasn’t she reprimanded for not moving her self from the computer when her boss told her to do so? That clinic sounds like a zoo!!

    Yes you should volunteer at that zoo and more than twice a month. I work with my husband everyday and while I love working with him I hate this dirty business. But this business pays my bills and my son’s bills and many people I care about–their bills too, so here I am making the best of the situation. Get your butt in there!!!

    Always listen to your red flags. Maybe someday I will tell you the story of the first time I met the OW before she started working at our business. It’s eerily uncanny how many vibes I got from her from the first time I met the whore to finally getting her out of our lives. I ignored them. Don’t you be so dumb as I was.

    • Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 5:17 pm #

      Th, that’s funny, they have to hibernate for the winter. Hehehe

    • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 5:24 pm #

      Hi Trying,

      Your perception of your FIL in accurate. Long ago, I used to give mine a ‘pass’ and felt very sorry for him. But, then I started to see the dynamic. She is the narc and he is the enabler. They are both ‘sick’ people. But, my FIL is more ‘sick’ than she is because she tolerates the abuse. But, I will say that my FIL’s situation still is sad because his own childhood set him up to marry a woman like this. My FIL had a horribly physically and emotionally abusive father. (His dad, I also believe, was a raging narcissist). My FIL’s mother was a meek, quiet, and loving person who just tried to ‘manage’ as best as she could and attempted to put a damper on her husband’s temper. My FIL has said when he was growing up he felt like he lived in an inescapable and abusive prison. So, his mom never left his dad. In comes my MIL. Someone like my father in law has been groomed to feel comfortable with someone like my MIL because she feels like ‘home’; even though ‘home’ is a very sick place. My FIL tried to leave my MIL once and divorce my MIL twice. When they were dating and he first got a whiff of her temper, he broke up with her. She came back and told him she was preggers with my husband. (She actually was). My FIL thought about it and then said to himself, “I don’t want to torture a child by having her being the only parent, so it’s best I marry her”. And so he married her and my husband was born. Then, during the course of their marriage, he tried to leave her twice. Each time she flipped out and became more violent than usual. Believe it or not, it was my FIL’s mom who ordered him to go back. His mother told him: “I stayed with my husband til death do us part and you need to stay with your wife.”

      Can you believe that?

      So this is the mess that my own H grew up in.

      But, on the ‘outside’ his mom kept up the perfect show. Large house, designer clothing, fancy cars, lots of materialism and expensive vacations.

      I remember the first time he met my parents. We had dinner at their house when we were dating. Now my parents are nice people but they are NOT wealthy and they are NOT ‘showy’. They don’t drive nice cars or live in a large home. My dad has a leg injury where he limps when walking due to a severe accident long ago. But, my parents are nice. They don’t yell. They don’t shame. They don’t berate. The treat everyone respectfully and warmly. They are social and they care. They are both also very educated. My dad is a retired professor.

      So, I wasn’t sure what my husband would think when he met my parents. At that point I did not know about the abuse in his home. I only knew his family appeared to be wealthy and that physical appearance and the appearance of grandiose wealth was extremely important, if not the most important thing in his parent’s lives. It’s all they talked about and all they lived for.

      So, when he met them for the first time at their very humble house for dinner and then after we left their house, he was so excited. He could not stop talking about how much he loved my parents–and how perfect they are. I mean he was bouncing off the walls he was so happy. I was relieved but I figured his enthusiasm was a show to be nice.

      Well…. soon after we got married and the ‘masks’ came off his parents, only then did I understand why he loved my parents so much and why he still loves them to this day. This is a great thing for me since my folks live about a 15 minute drive from us and we see them daily. My husband is the one who encourages all this family time with them because only now does he know what it is like to be treated lovingly and like a ‘son’. (They treat him like a dearly loved son).

      My in-laws live about 1,500 miles away. And I am going to keep it that way, period.

    • Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 5:27 pm #

      Trying,
      Tell us about the first time you met the OW– lets hear it!

  81. Sarah P. May 16, 2014 at 5:26 pm #

    PS-
    A typo from above and here is the correction:

    But, my FIL is more ‘sick’ than she is because HE tolerates the abuse.

    (In other words, MIL has always abused my FIL, even physically. One time he said she got mad and came after him with a knife. No joke!!)

  82. Strengthrequired May 16, 2014 at 5:40 pm #

    Wow, Sarah.

  83. Sarah P. May 17, 2014 at 3:40 pm #

    Hey Strength,

    That is really unbelievable that cousin it had your husband support her even when she had enough money after her divorce. Say it with me, ya’ll! S-O-C-I-O-P-A-T-H !!

    Its absolutely imperative that she stays away from your family. It sounds as if she brings bad luck to whatever she touches. Instead of having the Midas touch, she has the destruction touch. Stay far away from that chaos-maker.

    As for your H, family obligations or not, he needs to go NO contact with Cousin It and her close family.

  84. Strengthrequired May 17, 2014 at 5:55 pm #

    Sarah, Thankyou, I definately intend on keeping my family away from her and her family. My h knows he loses his family if any contact he makes with her, I did think as time moves forward, the longer he stays away from her. He will see, exactly what she did to him, and how she was not the saviour he once thought she was, more destroyer of everything.

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