Is The Cheating Spouse Living With Regret?

50 Responses to “Is The Cheating Spouse Living With Regret?”

1. 

   Jennifer
   

   23. Aug, 2010

   This topic pulls at my heartstrings. It scares me because I have seen my husband in tears about how he worries that our kids don’t realize how much he loves them. I worry that he is only staying with me for “appearances” towards the kids. (They are 6 and 7.) I worry that this is the way it will be forever and he will continue to go out with his buddies and have affairs and then come home and “play house” in front of the kids. The only one that hurts is me.
   Today is our 8th anniversary and I’m not sure how to handle it. I did buy him something. Not sure if I should have. I don’t even know how to act towards him today. Do I tell him I love him or do I back off and not make him uncomfortable? Maybe I should celebrate the 8 years of my own accomplishment in keeping this marriage working, 8 years of loving him no matter the cost. Ugh. I hope today passes quickly.

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   • 

     Attraversiamo
     

     31. Aug, 2011

     Is your relationship with your husband better today?

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2. 

   ppl
   

   23. Aug, 2010

   i hope not. although it may give satisfaction to feel “guilty party” is forever regretting decisions, i would sincerely hope all can get to a better place. nobody would condone “war of roses” and destructive behavior. jealousy would seem to be worst reason to stay together. thougjt of spouse with someone else makes it seem like a “game” that one doesnt want to lose. the one i would like to see without regret is the “wronged spouse”. we all need to make decisions. whether time or finality of situation, many dont regret decision. the old joke of :
   why is divoirce so expensive… because its worth it.
   sometimes must be true

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3. 

   NotBroken
   

   23. Aug, 2010

   I think the cheating spouse will only regret their decision if they lose something because of it. I don’t think the cheating spouse regrets cheating if the wife/husband decides to stay and work on the marriage. Because if they don’t divorce…. then what did they really lose? Nothing. Sure they created a problem and will have arguments, but in the end they win. They cheat and have fun… and as a result end up with a better marriage than they had before. For them it’s a win win situation, and for us betrayed spouses we suffer and lose everything. I’ve lost my sanity and my sense of security. I’ve lost everything I thought I had. My H lost nothing. I’m here the kids are here. What did he lose?

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   • 

     Jennifer
     

     23. Aug, 2010

     Good point, NotBroken. However, I feel like I have GAINED in this situation. Gained a better sense of myself and what I need and also what I’m putting out there. I’ve spent a lot of lonely hours crying and moping, but after I got all of that out of me, I started reading up and finding sites like this one and DEFINING MYSELF. It has been a growing experience for me whether we divorce or not. And for that tiny little fact, I can be thankful. I improved ME.

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   • 

     jackie
     

     19. Sep, 2011

     If it was an affair of the heart, the other woman loses as well. She loses the man of her dreams, who stays in his marriage (better or worse), and ends up alone.

     And imagine a man who makes his marriage better at the other woman’s expense?

     Betrayed spouses always give a lot of heat to the other woman. But it was the husband who betrayed her, not the other woman. No one thinks about the other woman’s point of view. We all want to be loved and everyone makes unwise choices when they are in love. I don’t think any other woman intends to hurt the wife. I think it is more about HIM. But betrayed spouses are so angry (rightfully so) that they take out all their anger on the other woman.

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     • 

       Jackie
       

       19. Sep, 2011

       Hmm, another jackie,

       You said:

       “Betrayed spouses always give a lot of heat to the other woman. But it was the husband who betrayed her, not the other woman. No one thinks about the other woman’s point of view. We all want to be loved and everyone makes unwise choices when they are in love. I don’t think any other woman intends to hurt the wife.”

       I agree with you that everyone hurts due to affairs, but I don’t agree that the other woman doesn’t intend to hurt the wife. Just by joining the H in the affair, the OW is hurting the wife and the family. Maybe the H made advances to the OW, which was also wrong, but the OW made the “unwise” choice to have the affair. In this way, the OW too has betrayed the wife and kids. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Once you realize your unwise choice, it is time to make the right choices, make amends, and learn from your mistake.

       Perhaps you did not intend to hurt the wife. Perhaps you were not thinking. That “in love” feeling is a powerful force of Mother nature. But we humans aren’t animals. We have a rational brain that tells us something is right and something is wrong. People in affairs know something is wrong, which is why they to try to keep it secret. People in affairs also choose to ignore their rational side, they succumb to the positive drug-like feeling that the affair gives them.

       Put yourself in the wife’s place for just a moment. Imagine you are married, working hard, supporting your husband and kids in every way you can. You love your H, but life has gotten a bit dull and routine, filled with endless chores…groceries, maintaining the house, driving the kids to school and activities…hectic. Then out of the blue, your husband starts to act distant. Then he tells you, “I love you, but I’m” in love” with another woman.” How does that make you feel? To me it felt just how I felt when my Mom died. My world crumbled around me.

       If you were to put yourself in the wife’s shoe, maybe you might try to understand what you have done wrong. Most people involved in affairs are usually not bad people. They are naïve at best, weak in will power, generally selfish, and cruel and heartless at worst. It is not my intent to insult you. I have no ill will towards the OW in my H emotional affair. In my H’s case, she did the right thing. She told my H , “ What you are doing is wrong.” The OW refused to participate further, even though my H wanted more. This is what you needed to do. That is ended it before it got started. Kept a distance.

       Unfortunately, many people only see their own needs first…it doesn’t matter who they hurt, as long as they get what they want. This is called “selfish.”

       Getting involved with someone who is married is “WRONG”. It is just as wrong as the H is for getting emotionally involved with the OP, instead of working out the issues with his wife. He is running away from the issues, has given up trying. He owes it to his wife, marriage, and kids to try to work on the issues at home. The CS promised to his spouse in his marriage vow, in front of many family and friends that he would, “Promise to love, honor and cherish…till death do us part.” Having an affair is none of these things.

       Many people get involved in affairs during times of stress, crisis, because of fear…so many reasons. The proper way to deal with a unhappy marriage, is to do everything to resolve the problems of the marriage, with time spent, counseling, talking, working out issues…not escaping in a fantasy affair. Affairs hurt everyone, including the OP. That is why no one should get involved in affair, including the OM/OW. If the marriage is truly over, end it properly. Then go ahead and find another relationship. Having two relationships at once is a recipe for disaster, pain, and hurt.

       Yes, we all want to be loved. Love with two unattached single people is a beautiful thing. Getting emotionally involved with a person already in a committed relationship is a destructive thing, causing much confusion and pain to everyone involved. When you get involved with a married person, you are helping to destroy his spouse and his family.

       Sorry this is so long, but recovery from an affair is even more of a long drawn, out painful process.

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       • 

         Jackie
         

         20. Sep, 2011

         Not all betrayed spouses are by their husband’s sides, supporting their husbands needs, taking care of the family doing endless chores. Some wives are sitting back and letting their husband’s fill both the wife/mother role, and husband/father role.

         At this point, the man should step up and express his discontent. That is the proper way to handle any relationship because it is honest. But sometimes, being honest isn’t easy due to the temperaments of the people involved. If a person is difficult to talk to, and histrionic, it is a deterrent to communication. Some men are afraid of their wives.

         I agree that it is a selfish act between the affair partners. But, to diminish the idea that perhaps the betrayed spouse also contributed to the situation is naive. Many betrayed spouses sense their marriage is going off course long before an affair starts but chose to do nothing about it. I KNOW when something is going off course when I’m in a relationship and I work to fix it. I don’t wait for something to happen before I wake up.

         The OW may have participated in a selfish act, but it most cases is wasn’t a willful act to hurt the wife. If it were, they would go out of their way to make sure the wife found out, they would rub it in her face.

         In my case, I went out of my way to make sure she didn’t find out. He said he was going to leave and gave me a lot of supporting evidence to be credible that this is what he intended to do and was serious about it. I gave him many exits which he didn’t take.

         I didn’t want her EVER to find out about us, because their marriage was broken long before I got there, and as far as I was concerned, the demise of it, had nothing to do with me. I wanted him to leave because it was abusive to him, because he was miserable, not because of ME. (He and I were friends for many years before we got involved. I had some first hand knowledge of what the truth of the situation was. He knew my former husband also, before I divorced him. I had the strength to leave an abusive situation.) He didn’t come to me because he was bored. He came to me because I was easy to talk to, and because I allowed him to be free to be himself. While the sex was stellar, it wasn’t about sex for us. It was about friendship.

         And when she found out about us, all the issues that were on the table suddenly became about me, rather than the real issues. She cursed me out and said some nasty things to me. I took it because I didn’t want to cause her any more pain and figured I would give her her day. I understood her hurt.

         And then out of nowhere, he stayed to try to work it out with her, after he said things could not be worked out because she would have to change too much of her innate temperment to make it work. I left him alone hoping he would see the error in his ways. Her response, was to harass me. She continues to harass me, after more than three years, even though I’m NOT involved with him at all, and have no contact with him. It seems like every time they have an argument, it must be my fault.

         It was a really devastating situation for me, and she won’t let it go. It hardly seems right that I am the focus of their ongoing maritial battle. The mistake is trying to put lipstick on a pig, to try to make an abusive situation work, which is what he is trying to do.

         While I agree with almost everything you said about honesty and integrity and how the betrayed spouse must feel, you gotta understand something.

         Not everyone is emotionally sound. You have three people in the equation. What oughta be is largely about how emotionally stable a person is. People have wounds, they have emotional codependencies. Having willpower isn’t just about saying no. It can go much deeper. All three people in the triad have to be emotionally stable in order to not get entangled in the first place. People discount how emotionally screwed up people can be. And the reality is, people who are very high functioning in other parts of their life can be extremely screwed up in other areas. You would never know it unless you get close to them. They put on a show off perfect lives in front of strangers. What goes on behind closed doors is something else.

         For my part, my ex-OM was one of those guys. He continues to work at a relationship I KNOW makes him miserable. On the few occasions I run into him at Walmart, I can see it in his eyes. (I know him very well.) He continues to be afraid of his wife, and having been the subject her non-stop harassment for years, I understand why he feels that way. Of course, bullies don’t get put down until people stop enabling bad behavior.

         PS: I have been the betrayed spouse too. I can honestly say, this betrayal, by the OM hurt me worse than my husband’s philandering. You can’t really know this unless you have been on both sides. And you certainly can’t stroke a broad brush over every situuation. Life can be complicated and messy.

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         • 

           Jackie
           

           20. Sep, 2011

           “What oughta be is largely about how emotionally stable a person is. ”

           Again I agree with you in many areas. As I said before, every relationship is different, and people go into affairs for different reasons.

           Emotions are the cause of all the volatility involved in relationships in general. Affairs are definitely lacking in the individual’s emotional stability…that is not being in touch with one’s emotions, understanding them, and not letting emotions take control of what you believe in.

           I have no doubt that your OM was suffering, but it isn’t always because of the wife, even though he says it is. Many people in affairs rationalize the affair by blaming the BS, it lessens the guilt and shame, and provides an easy scapegoat and defense for the CS bizarre behavior. Once the feeling of being, “in love” takes over, it becomes more like an addiction, and the CS and OP both must deal with how to stop the addiction to each other.

           You can’t always believe what a CS says to you. Remember he is cheating on his spouse. He is breaking a promise he made to himself and his spouse. It isn’t necessarily that he is lying to you, but more that he is lying to himself, rationalizing, escaping. I’m not sure if your ex H did this to you also.

           I love my H with all my heart and would have done almost anything for him. Before the affair, H was depressed and unhappy, and the affair gave him a wonderful high. I’m sure my H was saying to the OW that I didn’t understand him, or that I was verbally abusive, cause that was what he was suddenly telling me. In all our life together, over 20 years, he had never said such words. I had no idea why he was saying them suddenly. I’m not sure if your ex H did this to you also.

           The OW definitely understood his work better, cause she worked with him in his field. As for verbally abusive, H gets upset when I ask him to clean up dishes instead of leaving them around. Any small criticism I made during the affair was considered as me being verbally abusive. And I have to say I rarely criticized. Yes, my H was sick, depressed, and not thinking straight “in love”.

           Many CS have been going through crisis such as overwork, depression, family illness, loss of work, etc…causing major pain and breakdown between spouses. I suppose many OP also have their own emotional problems also. So basically and affair is a relationship between two people who both have emotional problems. I suppose this is why so many affairs fail.

           You said, “All three people in the triad have to be emotionally stable in order to not get entangled in the first place. People discount how emotionally screwed up people can be. And the reality is, people who are very high functioning in other parts of their life can be extremely screwed up in other areas. ”

           I believe you are so right in this area, and that this is one of the main reasons people get involved in affairs. These people really need help with their emotional issues, but instead choose to escape in an affair, rather than work out their real issues the way they should. So if you know you are emotionally screwed up…get help!

           I know this is easier said than done. My H who knows he has emotional issues, won’t seek outside help and won’t talk about it. He might read an occasional book though. Mostly he insist on figure it out himself. He is better, but it is a much longer drawn out process. He improved so much faster when he was going to counseling for a short while.

           I am really sorry for you also. I know you hurt too, and didn’t mean to help cause all this damage. But it is the BS who really gets hurt the most though, because he/she never chose to cheat and has to figure out how to deal with the mess that the CS has created. You must have felt that way when your ex cheated on you.

           Even if the BS was an abuser, cheater, gambler, it is up to the CS to work on fixing the marriage or leaving it the proper way, divorce. Having an affair doesn’t solve the marriage problem. It makes things worst. It adds a new problem to solve in addition to all the other problems. An affair is the cowards way out, if the purpose was to end the marriage.

           For most CS though , it seems the affair was caused by the CS allowing his emotions control his actions, instead of his rational mind keeping things under control. I suppose that is why affairs are a fantasy. All reality and rational thinking is pushed aside to allow the affair to continue.

           One thing I have learned from all this pain and sorrow is, “Never get emotionally involved with a married or unavailable person. And if you are married, you have no business getting emotionally involved with another person who isn’t your spouse.” It is not worth the time or emotional pain, caused to everyone involved, including the OP.

           I wish you well in your healing and learning from this experience. I know you are not a bad person. I also know you, as well as I, will continue to grow and learn from this painful experience. Because when you thing of it, the best gift from all this pain is the lessons we can learn from it.

           Heal from this pain, grow from the lessons you have learned, and find a love who is available who can love you fully in return.

           From personal experience, one of the most important lessons I have learned since childhood was always take care of your health both physically and mentally because if you don’t, you will have to live with the consequences of the illness for the rest of your life. And that your illness will cause pain and suffering to you and all who love you and care about you.

           Sorry this is long again. I find that sharing our insights and perspectives to be very good healing process.

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         • 

           B
           

           01. Dec, 2012

           Ever think that this man was lying to you about who and how his wife was. That’s how it works sometimes. He has already shown you he is a dishonest and deceptive person by having an affair behind his wife’s back. These men lie to their wives and they lie to you too. Many times they tell you things to gain your sympathy as that creates a very powerful connection and emotions. This strokes their fragile egos and they just lap it up. You don’t live with them and see the true person they are. Of course they are charming for the few hours you see each other, anyone can be charming when they are lying and pumping themselves up, and spending money on you and trying to impress you. You do NOT know his wife, all you know are the lies he tells you, and believe me HE IS LYING TO YOU TOO! Wake up and get that if you don’t get anything else. She obviously was not as horrible as he told you since he finally woke up and realized what he could possibly lose. That tells you something. These guys lie to get what they want, they want their cake and to eat it too. They lie all the way around, period!

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       • 

         Gizfield
         

         21. May, 2012

         I love the way that Other Women believe everything some one else’s husband tells them. Really? He is a known liar. Lol At least his wife can admit it. they tell you all about how horrible their life is, yet they stay. And the reason??? Because they want to.

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     • 

       Jackie
       

       19. Sep, 2011

       “And imagine a man who makes his marriage better at the other woman’s expense?”

       Yes, I also agree to this too! As I said, the H was wrong to make advances in the first place! But two wrongs don’t make a right. The pain you feel is because you got involved with a man you knew was (unavailable) married. Your response to his advances, no matter how wonderful it made you feel, should be, “I don’t get involved with married men.”

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     • 

       Jackie
       

       19. Sep, 2011

       “But betrayed spouses are so angry (rightfully so) that they take out all their anger on the other woman.”

       You are also right about this line. It is so much easier to blame the OP. It is hard to blame the one you love for hurting you. It is so much easier to blame someone else, when actually the blame falls equally on both cheater and other person. Each has the control to end the affair directly, the spouse can only end the affair indirectly.

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4. 

   ppl
   

   23. Aug, 2010

   your respect. hopefully you havent lost your own self respect.

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5. 

   Jeffrey Murrah
   

   23. Aug, 2010

   Linda,

   Let me see if I understand your questions: “How many marriages end because of infidelity with the cheating spouse regretting their decisions?”

   This is an unanswerable question. Although you can find the numbers for divorce where infidelity is given for the reason, that does not indicate how many regret that choice. What I can tell you is that at least 15% of the people who divorce their spouse after an affair don’t regret their actions in terms of thinking they did anything wrong. That is about the number of people who function with little or no conscience. Another group are those who are using the affair as a passive way out of the marriage. For them, they only consider their immediate emotional state. They do not consider how their actions impact others. Beyond that is all a matter of speculation.

   You other question, “Once a cheating spouse makes that decision (I am not sure if this is the decision to cheat or the decision to stay together?) , how difficult it is to turn around and admit how wrong they were?” It all depends on how much pride they have and how strong their moral convictions are.

   A question in my mind is “What is the purpose of marriage?” How people answer this question determines a lot. It identifies what they see as their options. It determines what they will and won’t feel guilty about.

   If their answer is that it is about enjoying a life together. When they cease enjoying that life, then marriage has outlived its usefulness for them.

   If they say marriage as a way to indulge in sexual relations without conviction, then when the opportunity comes up for them to get their jollies and not get caught, they jump at the the chance.

   If they see the purpose of the marriage to raise good children and strong families, they will view their options differently.

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6. 

   NotBroken
   

   23. Aug, 2010

   Jennifer… your right I did improve myself, and my outlook on life is more mature now. I’m not like a child living some fantasy.
   Ppl… He did lose my respect.

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7. 

   michael's wife
   

   23. Aug, 2010

   I live with regrets everyday, every minute, I have been trying to ask myself how I could have done this to my loving husband to my family. I thank god everyday that my husband has continued to stay with me. He has also tried to help in so many ways. I don’t believe that I deserve him, sometimes I think that is the reason for the EA. I really don’t know the why, but I’m trying to work through that.

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   • 

     Doug
     

     24. Aug, 2010

     Michael’s wife, Often times the betrayer suffers in silence, afraid to talk about their feelings because they feel they have to be the strong one. I know that if Doug would have told me how much he regretted the affair and how terrible he felt and the feelings he was experiencing it would have helped me move on. Often times the spouse sees the pain and silence as a sign they are still thinking about their affair partner, little do we know that they may be feeling shameful, guilty or undeserving. I believe the most important thing you can do for your marriage is be honest with your feelings and trust that your husband will listen. He has proven that he wants your marriage to work, try to trust him and open up yourself to him. Linda

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8. 

   neko
   

   15. Sep, 2010

   I’m young, not close to 50 but not a teen.
   I’ve ‘still got my whole life ahead’ of me, but the pain caused by an abusive spouse isn’t any less. Of course it doesn’t start off abusive – the honeymoon phase does came to a halt, however he gave up completely – and without telling me (the affair). I made it crystal clear that if he were unhappy or wanted us to part – i’d respect that, he didn’t want me to carry on with my life aka have closure hence doing the dirty behind my back, whilst i was at home cooking his meals.
   My other half deceived me for a whole year, sure we didn’t have kids, however his ‘reasons’ or rather excuses were the same to the ones mentioned above. He was spoilt rotten, selfish and abusive(emotionally, psychologically and eventually physically) . He was a narcissist. I couldn’t see the abuse for what it was at the time – who ever really does?
   By that time he’d managed to isolate me from friends and family – was in a foreign country, hardly spoke the language.
   I couldn’t have been more reasonable, then again it takes two to make a relationship work. Trust is the basis of any relationship, at the time i trusted him to be a decent human being. It was a game to him of power and control.
   No love. I eventually found the strength to leave him, once i realised he was abusing me. This realisation came once i had secretly reconnected with my family and friends online.
   To this day he tries to torment me indirectly- in new ways (for narcissists are master manipulators) in an attempt to reel me back into his destructive world.
   Is he trying to reel me back in due to regret? hell no. He’s still with that other sorry excuse for a human being (they deserve one another) it’s just for his sick sadistic satisfaction.
   To regret, to apologise would mean him admitting that he was wrong. That will never happen. He blamed me till the very day i moved. I’ve never looked back. Never broke my word of never speaking to him ever again. We’ll have to see one another at a certain institution due to circumstance and although it may be tough, it’ll be bearable and part of the mending process.
   He gave up on us, but i’ll never give up on myself.

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9. 

   Dawn
   

   30. Oct, 2010

   Just for a second the other day I was thankful that I was cheated on and not the cheater. I was trying to think how I could live in my relationship if I had done what was done to me and I do not think I could live with it. Then I thought, no, being cheated on sucks, but it was just a thought.

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   • 

     Doug
     

     02. Nov, 2010

     Dawn, interesting stance on that. As the cheater, I believe that the regret and guilt is tough to bare, but nothing compared to the hurt that the victim feels.

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10. 

    Jackie
    

    12. Feb, 2011

    Dawn,
    The cheater must live with the fact that he cheated on his spouse, and kids if he had any. The betrayed must live with the idea that this can happen again if the cheater doesn’t learn anything from the affair and cheating. The cheater betrayed him/herself, and what he used to believe in, to give himself the good feeling of having a fantasy affair.

    We all get hurt from the betrayal. The best we can do is learn and grow from it.

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11. 

    Elemen
    

    17. May, 2011

    As a spouse that cheated and chose to separate, I can tell you definitely there isn’t a day now for 2 yrs I don’t regret my actions. Mine is a double-edged sword in that my husband also cheated on me. That came out later though, when we confessed to eachother. He had already filed for divorce by the time we told eachother. And we tried to reconcile but ultimately he wanted to divorce and said there was too much damage/not much to salvage. I was still open to reconciling w/ him.
    So I can tell everyone here: yes, some spouses that cheated regret it horribly. It is by far my worst regret in life. It’s #1. And eventhough I couldn’t save my marriage I learned some major life lessons and one is that I will never ever cheat again. It was NOT worth it. Please note: I did not leave my husband to be with the OM. In fact, I barely spoke to OM after separating from my husband and soon after cut off all contact.
    Affairs are ugly and devastating & although my H wanted to divorce, I will always regret the way we cheated on eachother in the end…we were so close to separating and should have just separated before involving third parties…

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12. 

    StealthGenie
    

    13. Jul, 2011

    I wonder the other person really worth a try to give a second chance or it is just a fake excuse to relax your heart apparently and temporarily. Decisions must be made keeping in view their consequences, emotional and sentimental people often end their lives with guilt overpowering their lives. To avoid such hazardous times, I think precautions are better and one such could be installation of a spying software in their mobile phones to remove the evils the moment they start appearing.

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13. 

    Gayle
    

    04. Aug, 2011

    I am the cheater and regret deeply that I have done so. My then husband was miserable and said his life was “sucky” all the time. I took it as since I was a part of that life..well I must suck too. In reality..he was miserable because he thought I wasn’t happy and was trying everything he could to make me happy..so he sacrified his own happines. I couldn’t talk to him..didnt’ want to go to him for comfort..because all I heard was life was sucky. I called him once and asked if we could start to have date nights..I felt like I was starting to faulter in our relationship..he said he didn’t think it was necessary. I thought he was done..so I shut down myself. I was contacted on facebook by an old classmate. Talking with him he tugged at my emotional strings. I quickly started to lie, sneak around, send this old classmate money to help him out and then eventually made up a story on why I had to drive 5 hours away to go see him and have sex with him. At first I didnt’ feel guilty..cause it was a temporary high. When my ex figured out what was going on..he wanted to die. I can still hear nights of him wailing and crying out to me that he can’t move..he can’t breathe..he wants to die. I couldnt’ reach out to him. I was frozen.
    Here it is 2 years later and just now I am starting to see the effects of my actions on my family, my ex husband and the fact that I only have 1/2 of my childrens lives to me since we have 50/50. I am devasted I gave up so much. A man that would have done anything if I would have just opened up more and said I think we are in trouble and need help. I suffered in my own hell then..and I am still suffering now.

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14. 

    Dawn
    

    20. Sep, 2011

    Dear Jackie the OW who posted September 20th. Looks like you were fed the line every OW has been fed, the wife is horrible. Then the Husband realizes that he actually loves the woman he married and has a life with and that the pig he was putting lipstick on was you.

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15. 

    jackie
    

    30. Sep, 2011

    @Dawn The husband never said he didn’t love his wife. He said that the situation was a lost cause, and that they were too different, too incompatible to bridge the gap. That’s a very different thing.

    I loved my ex-h. I also knew that he was too broken to continue to be part of my life, so I divorced him. It was the healthy thing to do. Love simply isn’t enough to have a healthy relationship.

    @responsetoJackie(me) [Something weird in the way this board works]

    I stated before. We were friends for many years before our affair started. So I can only assume what he had to say was me was truth, and not a “setup” to get me in his bed.

    A lot of what he described in his marriage was described in a matter of fact way. He didn’t describe it as abuse. But when I heard it, clearly it was abusive. Subtle tactics such as: isolating him from outside influences, dominating all of his free time with honey-do lists (when I know he spent the majority of his weekends doing stuff around the house or doing stuff for her endless number of extended family. I saw the proof in these things because he used to post photos of his project on facebook and post tons of facebook statuses about that over the many years.) Those lists would keep him from doing any of the personal things he wanted to do for himself. He NEVER had any alone time.

    She would tell him what to wear, disallow whole families of food in their household (because she didn’t like the taste of them, no one else was allowed to have it). When she got angry with him, she would spend days ignoring him. She would make really snide degrading comments about him on facebook.

    He would say terrible things about himself and I would ask him why he thought those things and he would say, “no reason”. Then I would dig deeper and he would admit “someone” said that about him, but never would say who it was.

    A lot of time he would talk about things, vacations, activities, and I would say, “you don’t sound like you had fun” or “you don’t sound like you want to do that”. His response was always, “she had fun” or “this is what she wants to do”. So he would never complain and say, “I don’t want to do this”. In fact, he never said he was unhappy, until we actually got deeply involved in an emotional affair. He simply stated things as if this is how things are, with a cold detachment as if he wasn’t part of the whole thing, but an observer.

    Only a few things he would complain about, usually things about the kids where he wanted to engage them in more enriching activities and she would dismiss his suggestions as being unnecessary.

    And over time, being his friend, I dug and realized that he likes keeping the peace over all else and I encouraged him to speak up more about what he wants and needs and stop being so wishy washy.

    So I do believe he was honest about the situation. I haven’t detailed all the other behaviors. None of the behaviors seem so bad on the surface. But when you detail them all together, there is clearly a pattern of controlling and manipulative behaviors. To this day, he has never admitted that they were abuse when clearly, a description of the behaviors (which I haven’t provided in enough details to make the case) IS an abusive situation.

    This is what happens to people who are accustomed to having their needs steam-rolled for many years. They are not able to even see how much they are being abused.

    But when I see him, he looks different. There is no twinkle in his eye. His posture has changed. He looks beaten down. Our mutual friends say that he no longer speaks to anyone and has withdrawn from all of his friendships.

    As far as I am concerned, I got out of a marriage that was very bad for me, but this experience was far worse because the betrayal of what was promised, and even the betrayal of our emotional connection, the mutual respect, the mutual trust was epic. No one has ever hurt me this badly, not EVEN my philandering husband.

    While I was definitely not in my right mind by getting involved with an unavailable man and have learned a great deal of myself afterward, I did not ever dream that someone that was closer than family would betray me like this. It isn’t just the trying to work things out at home, but the complete lack of acknowledgement of the damage he did to me by bringing me into this on such a deep level. (Promises of growing old together etc.)

    In a marriage where there is a betrayal, when the spouse chooses to work on it, there is a lot of mending to be done, and it takes time. But at least the cheater admits to their errors and tries to make amends. To the OW, dropping her like a hot potato. It’s like divorcing your spouse without even having a conversation and then simply disappearing. Just try to imagine that. It really doesn’t matter if the person was unavailable to begin with, the simple fact was a serious emotional bond was formed and every human being, no matter how flawed and how erroneous their decision was, deserves respect and validation, especially when they were i a serious relationship.

    Reply to this comment
    • 

      Jackie
      

      30. Sep, 2011

      I had to also address this line of yours:
      “It really doesn’t matter if the person was unavailable to begin with, the simple fact was a serious emotional bond was formed and every human being, no matter how flawed and how erroneous their decision was, deserves respect and validation, especially when they were i a serious relationship.”

      You are right in this, and this should say something of the kind of person you are dealing with. Like many here, the CS has some character flaws. First he is cheating on his wife and family, getting involved with someone outside his marriage. He is clearly not working on his issues. You are right you deserve more as any decent human does deserve. What he should say to you is, “I’m sorry I hurt you. I didn’t mean to. I never should have let it go this far. I wasn’t thinking straight.”

      Did you notice how these are the same words he needs to say to his spouse and he may never be able to say even to someone he has been with for decades? This is why he also can’t say it to you. Be lucky if you ever hear anything that resembles, “I’m sorry for hurting you.”

      I’m sure he is sorry…he just has trouble admitting his mistakes and faults. This is the type of man the wife has been living with and accepting for years.

      If it is any comfort, please take my quotes of apologies as if they were truly said to you by the CS. Believe them. I’m sure they are as true as he would have said them. He just has trouble saying these words to anyone…including himself.

      Heal, learn and grow stronger.

      Reply to this comment
    • 

      B
      

      01. Dec, 2012

      You being dropped like a hot potato is what you deserved. You now have to feel the heartbreak you caused his wife. There is something called KARMA.

      Reply to this comment
      • 

        Jackie
        

        02. Dec, 2012

        It’s been years since we’ve been together but I do run into him on occasion. He is still married, and still unhappy. He looks like a different person. He has aged in an unflattering way. He looks worn out and defeated, has no bounce in his step, no twinkle in his eye.

        We spoke and I asked him if he was happy in his life. He admitted his isn’t. I asked if he was in love. He admitted that he only stayed for the kids. The expression on my face was enough for him to fall over himself and strongly state that it is his life and his choices to make. (It is, and he is a coward.)

        I am sad for him because he has chosen to play make believe for his kids. It’s not good for anyone involved including the kids. He thinks they won’t know, but they will eventually and he condemns them to do the same with their lives giving them a good role model about loyalty but a terrible role model about self-love.

        I feel sorry for his wife. I wouldn’t want a man to stay with me simply because I am the mother of his kids. It might feel good to have someone go through the motions, pretending to love me, but on some level, I would know in my heart that it is fake. And I would forever feel insecure, and look over my shoulder, walk on egg shells. That’s no way to live.

        He told me he was never in love with her, never attracted to her. (She doesn’t have a sexy bone in her body, even though she has a very pretty face.) She chose him and he feels obliged to stay for the kids. What a horrible way to keep a man in ones life? I can think of no reason why he would lie at this point. He has nothing to gain because he knows he has lost me and my respect forever. I can’t love a person who doesn’t have enough courage to follow his heart, if not with me, at least not to live a pretend life.

        Yes, his character flaws surprised me and out of the three of us, I am the luckiest of all. I lost the guy, but gained a new sense of self-worth. I won’t be making mistakes like that again. Perhaps he wasn’t worth keeping to begin with. He remains with her, and the two of them remain in a pretend marriage, both, not truly happy. I get to live the rest of my life in pursuit of true happiness, and they spend theirs on a treadmill looking good to the neighbors but fooling no one. (People do talk behind their back and anyone paying attention to the details sees that nothing has changed.) Truly sad.

        Reply to this comment
        • 

          Surviving
          

          02. Dec, 2012

          Jackie,
          It’s possible he isn’t truthful to you as much as you may think he’s being honest he prob isn’t.
          As for staying for the kids I gather you don’t have any. Once they are born and your holding this life you made and feel that unconditional love you know at that moment you would give your life up for them.
          If he wanted to leave he would.

          Reply to this comment
        • 

          justbecause
          

          03. Dec, 2012

          Jackie, It seems to me that you are trying to rationalize your affair with a married man. I think it would be hard to be objective in your situation. Seeing things as you do may be a way of self-preservation, of allaying guilt, of not fully admitting to a tragic, horrible deed.

          I agree with Surviving. Jackie, you don’t know everything. You know or perceive what the CS wants you to.

          I have had limited contact with the OW since my D-day. The part that bothers me the most about the cow is her inability to admit she was wrong, that she engaged in the EA in part due to her emotional issues. She did not know my H or our situation at all – despite 20 months of conversing online.

          When at first your practice to deceive . . .

          Reply to this comment
16. 

    Jackie
    

    30. Sep, 2011

    Hi again other jackie,
    I see and feel your pain. Interesting, I could see my loving H say all these things to you and how you may have grown to think that his wife was abusive. I agree with you that in a sense, he was a broken man when he met the OW. But he wasn’t necessarily broken because of the marriage or wife, more so it was how his life had become unbalanced and unfulfilling. In my case, my H was depressed and over worked. Yes, he has been unhappy lately, and being with the OW gave him a kind of high, giving him an ego boost, when life seemed to be all work, no play. But it was a fantasy. He was living in fantasy, running away from all his troubles, cause he didn’t know how to fix them.

    The feeling of an infatuation, affair, or being “in love”…is highly addictive. It gives one a high, drug like feeling. It is not a rational feeling but pure emotional (chemical).Yes it feels good, but at what cost. He has dropped you as he has, because he realizes what damage he has done to his marriage, family and everyone who believed and trusted him. He likely realizes that he made a mistake, and can’t believe what he has done. Now he is angry at himself, ashamed that he could have done such a horrible thing to his family, marriage and all of those who loved him. He let everyone down including himself, for a fantasy. He has lied, cheated, and has become someone he never imagined he could become.

    Understand, my H doesn’t often give his opinion on what he wants to do or where he wants to go. He chooses to defer to me or the kids, saying it doesn’t matter. I believe him when he says this, because I believe he will tell me if he doesn’t like something or would rather do something else. As in any adult, it is his responsibility to communicate his wishes, otherwise I will have no clue he doesn’t like something. To me his opinion matters very much and I respond as much as I can to his needs and desires. He knows this, and says sometimes that is why he doesn’t ask, because he knows I would likely make an effort to please him.

    I can see how you may have interpreted his unhappiness as his wife being abusive, when it really was him not voicing or communicating his wants. Like many men in relationships, many H choose a passive role in the workings of the relationship. H think that it is the wife’s job to make him happy, not his own. It takes two to make a relationship work. You must have seen this in your previous marriage.

    My H said this early on in the EA, “I don’t know why I am doing this. I have everything I could ask for here!”

    So what about you, the OW? Yes, you too got hurt by the affair. Now you feel abandoned after all he had said and done with you. That is why one should never get involved with a married person. They are NOT AVALIABLE! They have promised their spouse to love, honor them, until death do they part. If the CS were so unhappy in the relationship in the first place, they need to end it, before starting another relationship. Unfortunately, the CS unintentionally hurt you too, to make himself feel better, just like he hurt himself, his wife, the kids, and his family and friends. The CS has let everyone down, and now has to try to pick up the pieces from the destruction that he has caused.

    Your job is to learn from your mistakes and pain, grow from it, become a better person. I feel you haven’t learned the mistake from your first marriage, when your H cheated on you. Somehow you allowed yourself to be the OW. After all the pain and anguish from your first marriage, why didn’t you vow never to get involved in an affair? That puzzles me. Like all of us here, you must look deeper into yourself to learn from your life and mistakes. The pain you feel here is the process of learning the hard way, because you didn’t learn it the first time. You have also played a role in his destruction. You got physically and emotionally involved with a vulnerable married man. You tried to fulfill your needs, with someone who had a wife and family. You joined the fantasy, encouraged it with your assumptions in the guise of being understanding. You were a major role in the destruction of someone else’s marriage.

    Do everyone a favor. Leave him and his family alone. Allow them to try to repair and heal from the damage that the affair caused. Vow never again to get involved with a unavailable man…that is both married, attached, or emotionally unavailable for that matter.

    You are like the alcohol bottle, to the alcoholic. The temptation and destruction of life as the CS once knew and loved. Yes, loved. He realizes what he will lose if he continues down this path with you. Not that you are a bad person, disillusioned maybe, but not bad. Just like alcohol isn’t necessarily bad, it is how alcohol is abused that causes problems in a person’s life.

    I know you hurt and I don’t mean to lecture you. But at this stage of struggle and learning in our life, every action and word comes under scrutiny. Don’t become bitter. Learn from your mistakes. We are all human and we all make mistakes. The best you can do is to move on and learn from them.

    Like all of us, we could all use some therapeutic counseling to help us understand why we do destructive things in our lives. Live to better the world. Do what you can to not hurt others. Life is not only about you and your feelings. Look beyond yourself.

    As I say often, “Affairs are wrong because they hurt EVERYONE involved.”

    Reply to this comment
    • 

      Dawn
      

      30. Sep, 2011

      Hi Jackie, not the OW Jackie, the other Jackie
      I love your posts. Everything you have said is so true and so parallel to my experience.
      To the OW Jackie, I guess I am so upset by your statements because even though my husband had an emotional affair 2 years ago, the thing I carry with me the most is that the OW is walking around thinking that my husband is in a bad relationship, that I am crazy, and that he would rather be with her. Even though I know for certain that could not be further from the truth. It pains me to think that she may think that, and be discussing this in her world, as our worlds do overlap to a certain extent. I usually get past it by thinking she cannot possibly be that delusional, but then I read your posts and realize that she quite possibly could be.

      Reply to this comment
17. 

    jackie
    

    01. Oct, 2011

    @Jackie (round green face)

    Yes clearly he wasn’t working on his issues. And it isn’t as if I didn’t encourage him for years to work on them. Most of his issues, which I identified early on, he refused to admit existed. Near the end of our final breakup, he admitted he didn’t believe they were as big of a problem as he now knows they are. But it isn’t as if I didn’t try. And this was well before we had any sort of improper relationship.

    There was much more to our relationship than him saying I’m sorry, I wasn’t thinking straight. If it were that simple. I put him over the coals more than once during every stage of our relationship, drawing lines of what I wanted and expected. I was very clear that I did not want to be placed in the position that I am now. And had he taken my lead, we would still be friends, having never crossed the line at all. Instead, he gave me over-the-top gestures that were quite convincing that he meant what he said. In the end, we were pretty close to being also married. People who saw us together thought we were living together and he had already left his marriage due to a lot of reasons that I don’t want to say here. I did go to therapy after this and my therapist, who is experienced in these matters was very surprised HOW FAR he went to assure me that he was serious. He owes me far more than a “I’m sorry”. I’m not saying I want him back or even in my life, but a conversation that really gets to the root of things would be valuable to me.

    I know he was broken from things in his own past. Your situation may be very different than the situation with my OM. Not all situations are the same. His past reflects ALL the choices he has made in his life. From what he told me, he told me that he has NEVER been attracted sexually to any of the woman he has been with, that I was the first. He told me he aimed down because he knew they were insecure enough with themselves that they wouldn’t leave him, and he didn’t want to get hurt again. (I did the same in my own marriage because of the place I was in my life at the time I met my former spouse.) But if it were appearance that would be simple. He didn’t have a normal upbringing and therefore does not know what a normal relationship feels like. He chose long-term partners that reflected the same personality types he grew up with which were not healthy ones.

    I do understand that people need to voice their needs in order to have them met. But there is another side of that. What happens if voicing your needs results in a drawn out argument? Or having your feelings squashed, or invalidated. He described stuff like that to me, and having been through that myself, I know exactly what happens. You decide to keep things to yourself becuase you get tired of the fight about EVERYTHING. Communication is not simply voicing your opinions, but giving your partner the space to voice their needs and desires in an emotionally safe way. From everything he has said, he shut down because of the lack of emotional safety. And her behavior towards me, after ALL this time doesn’t give me a whole lot of confidence that she has changed her temperment at all. Otherwise, her energy would be on him, not me.

    I have had time to reflect on a lot of things, OM and my marriage. I got emotionally entangled with my OM when I was in the midst of a divorce, having a very dark, dark time in my life. I was scared, hurt, afraid that I would be alone for the rest of my life. And here was a man that really “got” me, understood how I ticked, and represented everything that I wanted in a future relationship. It was hard not to get caught up in that. That doesn’t mean I never learned anything from my marriage. My marriage did not end because of infidelity but because of other issues far more destructive. Infidelity was PEANUTS compared to the other issues.

    There was nothing I could have done to save my marriage. The issues with that squarely fell on him. I worked for a long time to fix it. The big mistake was marrying the wrong person in the first place. The other big mistake was spending years trying to fix something that NEVER WORKED TO BEGIN WITH. You can’t fix something that never worked.

    @Dawn You may be right in your situation about the OW and your H and you. But that may not be the truth in my situation. I do know people who admit to be miserable in their marriages and stay in it anyway. (Yet they continue to tell me about it.) I have counselled them to go to counseling and really work to fix it, BUT, the big BUT, to give themselves a timeline of what they expect to be corrected. I told them to not remain in limbo but to make a decision. If XYZ isn’t fulfilled by this date, then they need to move on and not keep hitting the reset button. (I did this for too long and nothing really improved.)

    I know others who stayed for the kids in marriages for more than 20 years and then left their spouses. They said they knew when their kids were young that they wanted out, but stayed anyway, much to the regret of their squandered life. (Their elder counsel told me not to do the same with my life.)

    The worst thing is to keep extending those boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable, never making a choice to move on when it isn’t working, but to keep living in fantasy land that the future will be better if you just hold out a little long. Miracles of miracles something that has never worked with just change, if you try a little longer and a little harder.

    I did that for the majority of my marriage. I realized now that the person is only who they are NOW, not what I want them to be in the future. And relationships should be regarded the same. That is why I say to set a firm set of criteria and goals, with a definitive deadline. If that deadline is breached without SUBSTANTIAL improvement, then it’s time to move on. This is my take away from both relationships. I have learned a lot about what I need to do to live in the present, and that goes far beyond love relationships. I have never done this before. I was much like your husband, deferring my needs to everyone else. The difference though was I knew what my needs and wants were, unlike my OM who deferred so much, for so long, he didn’t even know what he wanted for himself, even when asked. I have also learned how NOT to settle for less than I want. I have learned quite a lot in this experience. The only thing I haven’t gotten past is the hurt of such a deep betrayal. This was far worse than anything my ex-h and I experienced, believe me. As far as leaving him alone, I don’t contact him in any way at all. His wife doesn’t leave me alone and if she truly wanted me out of their marraige, than it is up to her to extract me out of her marriage by leaving me alone.

    For the record, I do think she is nuts. I think he is nuts. I think I am nuts. But of the three of us, I’m probably the most emotionally stable and the most introspective and self-seeking. (I’m more introspective than most people.) I also know this because I don’t believe their marriage would have gotten to the point of his multiple affairs if the two of them were more introspective, more transparent, more honest with themselves and each other. Those problems, were big and self-evident, long before I got there. They both chose to ignore them. Now they are aware of them, thanks to me.

    Being disguarded the way I was forced me to fast-track a lot of my personal growth. I think it can be extremely difficult to fix yourself (which the three of us need to do for YEARS to come), while trying to fix a relationship. The two things cancel each other out. What I mean is he has spent his whole life allowing his needs to pushed aside for the needs of others. He needs to figure out how to love himself for who he is, not for how others define him and not for what he does for others. Trying to discover ‘oneself’ while trying to also fix a relationship (which always requires compromise) is a bit counterproductive. Dawn, I hope you can make things work with your hubbie. You shouldn’t care what the OW thinks about you at all. If it bothers you, perhaps you should ask yourself why it bothers you so you can find a way to have it stop bothering you. She’s gonna do what she’s gonna do.

    I know what the wife thinks of me. She doesn’t know or understand how I tick at all and in her harrassment of me, has tried to upset me with things that don’t bother me. I’m more upset about the desire to hurt me then the actual things she says, especially since she won’t drop it. The things she says and does are so far removed from the truth about me, it’s impossible to be upset by the content. If the OW has something to say to your mutual friends, just know one thing, your mutual friends will have an interpretation that is different from both your side, and the OW side and form their own opinion. And to that end, who really cares? Your friends really don’t care, I can assure you of that. It’s just gossip to them.

    Reply to this comment
18. 

    Jackie
    

    01. Oct, 2011

    Hi Jackie (green gear face),
    Your quote:
    “For the record, I do think she is nuts. I think he is nuts. I think I am nuts. ” pushed some buttons for me.

    Funny, how I really thought my H had gone nuts. He really was acting irritable, illogical, and angry weeks before he told me about being “in love” with someone else. Then after telling me, all hell broke loose. He was acting literally out of his mind. H was blaming one minute, loving the next, raising his voice towards me and the kids, not telling us where he was going or when he would be back, not saying hello or goodbye. It felt as H had lost his mind. Marriage counseling helped him open up, but when he talked he was completely irrational, saying one thing one moment and the complete opposite the next. We couldn’t agree on anything, and as far as I was concern he couldn’t care less if I were dead or alive. All I knew was he was continuing to pursue the OW, and she made him feel wonderful, and I was the enemy for some reason.

    As weeks like this went by, I too was going through a sort of craziness. Trying to understand why he was doing this, what was wrong with him. Was he mentally ill? Has he truly been unhappy for so many years without me knowing? Why didn’t he make more effort in the past to let me know how important these issues of his were so we could work it out?

    He only wanted to be left alone to enjoy his fantasy, even though he admitted it was a fantasy. This was a man who in all the years I had known him was the most honest, sincere, loyal, caring, sensitive person I knew. Now he was completely the opposite, arrogant, blaming, uncaring, dishonest, keeping secrets which were important to us and our marriage. H was acting just like a selfish adolescent. I was doing everything in my power not to go crazy myself. I knew I had to keep my head, if not for me, but for the sake of the kids.

    I knew I had to do everything in my power to remain healthy both mentally and physically, when I felt I was losing it. I lost my appetite, couldn’t sleep, had intrusive thoughts, crying all the time, and was tip toeing around him not to set him off. He frightened me so much I started to understand how someone who once loved you could kill a loved one. This was a frightening thought, but the look of hatred in his eyes were frightening.

    Why am I telling you this? I guess because I realize my H crazy actions, were making me crazy. When you are so close to someone, what they do, influences you very deeply. This is what you experienced too.

    So basically the H affair causes craziness all around him. It makes the wife crazy. Because of the lying and dishonesty the CS has to play detective trying to get at the truth that the H is trying so hard to hide. She worries about the kids, her future, her H, the OW. Her whole life has gotten out of control.

    As the OW, I suppose the beginning offers the excitement of any new relationship. That is, dreams of a wonderful future, but when real life comes into the picture, it too comes crashing down with the same kind of craziness that the BS feels…the issues of lying and dishonesty…worry about the future…and the loneliness.

    In your case and in mine, and probably many others here, the CS has created this craziness for himself for what ever reason, and anyone who enters his world gets kind of crazy themselves. The spouse has less choices, he/she is married to this person…crazy or not.

    The only cure to the craziness, is to get out of the picture or never enter it in the first place. Of course, this is much easier said than done.

    So, yes, all of you are crazy…me too! But it is what we do now that determines whether we remain in that mode, or slowly dig our way out and create better richer lives for ourselves.

    As for my H, he still has trouble talking about it. He still uses escape as his method of coping with difficult emotions. He knows he has issues, and is trying to work on them in his own way. Will it work? Who knows.

    I love him even though he has all these problems. I try to improve our relationship by reading, understanding, and trying to reach him once again. I see improvements but who knows at this point where we are going or where we will end up. I have grown thru all this, learning to deal with my fears of the unknown, and appreciating each day that I am alive.

    Reply to this comment
19. 

    jackie
    

    01. Oct, 2011

    @Dawn, I was thinking about what you said about not speaking up. A couple of things. He never had a problem speaking up for his needs to me. At first, yes. But I paid close attention to him, his words, his body language. When something seemed not right, I asked him to express what he was really feeling. And over time, he felt comfortable enough to be very specific with his feelings. Didn’t his wife pick up on that? If not, why not? From everything he told me, she didn’t want to pick up on it. She really seemed very self-oriented. And he, always was doing for others, even for strangers. So what was it about her, that made him NOT want to tell her what he needed. Obviously there was something that she did or didn’t do that made him feel like it was pointless. So no, it’s not entirely his fault. She has plenty of blame too.

    The second part that is the belief that she is crazy. The simple fact is this. For several years since the affair ended, she makes a point of leaving a typed note on my car on a regular basis. (I had it tested for finger prints and its clean.)

    She’s also slashed my tires, broke into my car and left a dead animal in it. She has even once went to my son’s school and told him that his mother was a whore. (I said something to him about it and he told me that I should turn the other cheek and that he would not do anything about these behaviors.)

    The notes continue. Never more than 8 weeks have gone by when I don’t get another one. It is always specific enough for me to know it is her, but never specific enough to indicate that it is definitely her. In other words, I can’t prove that she is doing it, but I know she is behind it. It only started when she found out about us, and the information is far too detailed for someone who wasn’t involved.

    As a result, I’m constantly looking over my shoulder, wondering when the next shoe will drop. It’s a terrifying experience.

    So after some years, why won’t she leave me alone? Isn’t it enough that he hasn’t left her and that he publicly humiliated me to appease her? (And when we talked in private about he, he said he had to do it so she would trust him and that he really didn’t mean what he said. That doesn’t make it right, and it is scary to think that he would throw away all of his scruples just to appease what she wants.)

    I would say this is proof that she is deeply disturbed and I that’s probably why he looks so beaten down and unhappy. He’s obviously afraid of what she will do to him if he breaks away from her control.

    Reply to this comment
20. 

    jackie
    

    01. Oct, 2011

    @Jackie (round green face),

    Your story really touched me. I’m sorry you went through that. I did the same thing to my Ex-H. The difference was though, is that I told him many times what I wanted. He didn’t listen. Or he did listen and changed for a few weeks, only to go back to his old ways. I said I had enough more than once. He always promised to change, and I gave him second chances, third chances. Finally, I drew the line and said ENOUGH. This time, ex-H didn’t believe me and refused to accept that my decision was final. So I had no choice but to treat him that way until he got the point.

    The feelings you described, I felt both when I was married and then in the after-math of our affair. OM strung me along for some time after the affair ended telling me that things had changed, that they got more complicated and things would still happen, only it would now take longer. In the meantime, he too had the behavior wiith me that you described from your H. Only I had never seen this behavior from him and he had never been so selfish toward me. (I had been there for him through many a personal crisis, and when it was his turn to be there for me, really be there, he wasn’t. He said things were too rough at home and he didn’t have enough for himself to give to me. That hurt more you can imagine considering how much I gave to him.)

    Yes, the feelings you described for yourself is the same feelings that I felt. With one exception.

    The spouse has less choices because they are married to the crazy person? One can say the spouse has the opportunity to fix the craziness or get out of the craziness. The OW isn’t given a choice. Instead she is left alone trying to answer questions that only he can answer. Do you think either position is enviable? At least the spouse has a fighting chance to straighten out the mess.

    I still recommend that you make a decision about what goals you want to achieve and how long they should take to acheive them.

    For myself, I am a constant work in progress. I am fine most of the time. It is only the times that I receive a note, or, when I see him at Walmart that the feeling of hurt comes back to me.

    I don’t believe I love him anymore. He isn’t the person I thought he was. He said he would never go back to such a destructive situation. But that is what he has done. Even if I had the chance, even if he came banging down my door, I just don’t know if I could truly ever trust him with my heart. We were closer than anyone can imagine and if you imagine. If a person that close to you betrays you, then there is no way to know that they can ever be trustworthy, since that sort of is the measurement of trustworthiness to begin with.

    Anyway, Jackie be strong. I assure you I will never be involved with another unavailable man again. In fact, I drop them like hot-potatoes the minute I smell something isn’t right. I don’t give them second chances. I take things at face value and don’t allow excuses and words to persuade me anymore. Perhaps it is too harsh, and I will end up alone the rest of my life. Or perhaps I am just holding out, for the first time in my life for the RIGHT guy, not just any guy who is interested in me, but the one that is right. In the meantime, I live a fulfilling life, I have friends, and I enjoy my family. The right man will be dessert on a already wonderful plate of food. (And maybe when I meet that right man, you think the wife will stop leaving me notes? I hope.)

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    • 

      Jackie
      

      01. Oct, 2011

      Jackie (green gear shaped face),
      We are going to have to make a name change or something.

      I have to say I find our conversations enlightening.

      To your comment:
      “The spouse has less choices because they are married to the crazy person? One can say the spouse has the opportunity to fix the craziness or get out of the craziness. The OW isn’t given a choice. Instead she is left alone trying to answer questions that only he can answer. Do you think either position is enviable? At least the spouse has a fighting chance to straighten out the mess.”

      Do you notice the parallel here between the BS and the OP. The CS is doing the same thing to the OP that he did to the BS. It really is interesting. The CS is really selfish in many ways. Constantly hurting those he once claims to love. Both BS and OP have been left alone at one point, trying to answer questions that only he can answer. And the annoying part is the CS often refuses to answer. It is really sad.

      Really the choice of whether to stay in the marriage or end it, is between CS and BS. The choice the OP has is to try to continue the relationship with the CS or end it. Early in the affair, the CS chooses the OP, later CS often chose to stay with the marriage. But until the CS makes up their mind both the BS and the OP don’t really know where they stand, because the CS can’t make up their minds…this is the confusion, limbo stage of the marriage. The CS really wants to have the best of both worlds, but typically the BS and the OP don’t want that kind of relationship. This is the CS fantasy. He wants what he can’t have. He wants someone to help take away his unhappiness, because he doesn’t know how to create it himself.

      The BS may or may not have an opportunity to fix the craziness. So much depends on the CS willingness to admit they have a problem and their willingness to fix it. This is usually a life long problem, started in childhood. Many CS just are unable to look at themselves clearly. They are in so much pain and denial that they even have a problem…all they care about is what makes them feel good. In this state of mind the CS doesn’t seem to care who they hurt, as long as they feel good.

      It is that addiction thing again. It is so much easier for the CS blame others for the CS problem, and so easy to convince the CS self that everyone else is the problem.
      The BS always has the option to get out of the marriage…but at what cost? Considerations such as kids and finance are a huge factor in this matter.

      In your case, the OP as well as the BS have felt the same type of painful feelings, neither position is enviable. Both have been abandoned, betrayed, hurt, and blamed by the CS at some point in the affair. True, the BS usually gets the CS back in the end, but is still faced with the fact that the CS has lied, betrayed those he once loved, and abandoned his marriage. And as you say, can you really ever completely trust someone who has betrayed you so deeply? Will they do it again?

      As you said:
      “If a person that close to you betrays you, then there is no way to know that they can ever be trustworthy, since that sort of is the measurement of trustworthiness to begin with.”

      This exactly is the BS’s dilemma when the CS comes back to the marriage. It is not a pretty picture. Nobody wins. Everyone hurts.

      Reply to this comment
    • 

      B
      

      02. Dec, 2012

      You talk about the destructive situation these men go back to—THEY MADE IT THAT WAY. When these guys are in affairs they act differently at home toward their spouse and family, angry, distant, mean, no time for them, and guess what, the spouse notices but not knowing what’s really going on it drives them crazy in a sense. When they try to talk to their cheating husband, these guys totally shut down or get mad. It eventually drives the poor wife crazy because she is at least trying, but he on the other hand is doing such damage and causing such destruction. GET REAL, he bears a lot of the blame for his home situation!!!

      Reply to this comment
21. 

    jacklyn
    

    01. Oct, 2011

    @jackie But you do get a chance to TRY to fix it. I wasn’t given that choice. (And we were not having any problems between us. Now the rift, is irreconcilable because what has happened AFTER the break up.)

    It may be hard to build trust for the betrayed spouse, but that is what marriage counseling can do for you. It helps bridge the communication problems. Even if things don’t work out for you and your H, you will take comfort that you tried your best to fix it and make it work. You will get closure. If you decide to stay in the marriage, YOU MUST find a way to let your trust issues go, or else your marriage will be doomed to be an empty shell. And no one should live like that. Not your H, and not you. If you can’t find that place, then you should end it so the two of you can have the chance of finding real happiness again.

    For me, he never gave me a real chance. He didn’t separate and take some time alone. That is what he really should have done given the circumstances that I haven’t shared. Instead, he dropped me and started working on fixing things with her. I ASKED HIM to fix things before he ever got involved with me. He said he tried and tried and tried. I coached him and gave him advice on ways to make things better with her. I helped him buy gifts for her, I helped him create surprise romantic evenings. And it still didn’t help them.

    Then we got a little too close and we got involved. I backed away many times because I told him I would NOT be second fiddle and also, that our friendship meant more to me than a sexual relationship with him. I started dating others and he kept pulling me back in telling me that I was #1 and guaranteed that it would happen for us if I were only patient. Given all the information he had fed me, for years, I believe him to be sincere, and that he had my best interest at heart.

    The day she discovered us, he cried and cried. I asked where I stood and he told me that he never loved anyone like he did me, and he would never give me up. Two days later, he told me that he will work on his marriage and that I should move on, just like that. And I was left dumb-founded because I thought that he had already done this work and he was solid about his commitment and love for me. The question was never whether he loved her, but whether their lack of anything in common could reasonable be bridged into a marriage that wasn’t filled will constant compromises, where neither person gets their greatest wishes fulfilled, and whether their personalities meshed at all.

    After all the emotional work I have done, I know what a healthy foundation looks like and what isn’t a healthy foundation. I also know when there has been a lot of water under the bridge, it is almost impossible to not fall back into old learned habits without significant time apart (years). My ex-H and I still occasionally fall back into those skirmishes over our son. He said to me, “You and I are still the same people we always were. And we still fight the way we did. People don’t change.” And I believe that is really true when two people are very different in temperaments, and when those temperament differences are not complementary.

    He most definitely has a lot of work to do. But from everything I know, she isn’t emotionally healthy either. And it isn’t just because of him. The things she asked of him to do for her, (long before we were really involved) were completely unreasonable. And when she didn’t get her way, she made a big stink about it. And I told him so many times, why do you do something you don’t want to do? His answer, “Because you have to pick your battles and I don’t always want to fight about everything.” And there lies the problem. The only way they could agree on anything is if he let her have her way. A marriage should be a partnership, not a dictatorship. And from what he has said to me about her, EVERYONE lets her have her way, her sisters and brothers, her parents, because she is relentless and won’t stop until she gets it. People don’t want the drama and they give in. So they enable this, and as a result, she gets worse. No one has the courage to tell her to stop.

    Anyway, I could use a little of that couples counseling with him, even if the goal is to have a more civilized closure. Especially since we live in a smallish town and see each other in public often. Given how much time has elapsed, that will never happen.

    At least you have that opportunity to see it through and find out if it could work. I wish I had the opportunity to at least resolve my feelings.

    Reply to this comment
    • 

      Lynne
      

      02. Oct, 2011

      It sounds that (from your many comments) you still have a lot of emotional/therapy work to do. You seem to have a lot of “transference”…….in other words, you seem to spend a lot of your dialogue on your AP’s wife, her behaviors and his reaction to them, instead of recognizing that there was always the risk that he would/could choose his marriage over you. You must have known this was always a possibility, yet you seem so jilted by it! It seems likely that he was in his “affair fog’ and probably meant the things he said to you at the time, but again, this is a fog of excitement and fantasy. Your comments also suggest that you are spending a great deal of time on what others say to back up your theory and impressions of “their marriage”…..this is extremely unhealthy for you and will prevent you from moving on if you choose to stay mired in what he should have done, what he said he would do, and what his wife is or is not doing to him. Stop feeling sorry for him and his lot in life–he chose a life with his wife! He doesn’t sound like a victim (as you make him out to be), but is someone who had two choices and made the one he felt was best for all concerned. End of story, done deal! Move on and build a beautiful life for yourself…..stop blaming others for the risky choices you made…..learn the lessons…..and only choose people that are really, truly and openly AVAILABLE!!!

      Reply to this comment
22. 

    jacklyn
    

    02. Oct, 2011

    @jackie I have also been thinking about what you said about Alcohol and addictions. Obviously there was some element of that to our relationship or else we would have done things the right way.

    But what if the addiction is to being in destructive relationships rather than a healthy one? And being the OW may be party to a destructive relationship because it is destructive to wife and family. However, what if the relationship with the spouse truly was toxic and destructive to the CS, to the spouse, and possibly the entire family dynamic? Then it becomes more complicated. It’s not a matter of children and finances. Its far more complicated. It’s about sentencing oneself to a lifetime of misery, setting a bad example of relationships to the kids. Money is only money after all. It’s complicated but it can be worked out. I certainly worked it out, and I was a stay at home mom without a job when my marriage broke up.

    What’s worse? Breaking up a family and a marriage, or staying inside a toxic one? What if the destructive addiction is to the person they are married to?

    These are the things I have wrestled with ever since the end of the affair and in my marriage. In the end, I thought it was more important to be happy and set a good example of a how women should be treated to my son, then stay in a marriage that abusive.

    So you may be right. I may have been a fantasy to him. (It wasn’t a fantasy to me.) But what if I were merely the Zyban to his wife, who is full on nicotine. I really do believe this based on what has happened. Unfortunately, people don’t quit smoking, even when they know its bad for them, until they are ready.

    I regret I reunited with him at the time I did (when my marriage was ending). It was a bad time in my life. We grew up on the same cul-de-sac a long time ago. I have lost a life long friend.

    Reply to this comment
    • 

      Jackie
      

      03. Oct, 2011

      People should not stay in relationships that are destructive to their self esteem or that of the family. Affairs create a toxic environment for a marriage. Does that mean one should end the marriage? Not necessarily.

      People get involved in affairs for so many different reasons. I’d guess most of the reasons aren’t even obvious to the CS. Affairs seem to give the CS a high on fantasy drug like feeling. This doesn’t last forever, as the “in love” feeling is always temporary, as opposed to true loves day to day kind of feeling. So generally the BS needs to wait it out to see how things progress and see which direction the CS decides to go.

      During this period the CS is not showing his true self to the OP. The CS is not only lying to the BS, but lying to himself, and the OP. The CS often will say the BS is the problem, simply to justify his cheating actions and take the focus off himself. This is a very effective method to disarm the BS and get the BS off the CS’s back. The CS may not think he is lying, because he is too busy rationalizing his irrational behaviors. The out of touch brain works in mysterious ways.

      When someone is willing to lie and cheat on his spouse, you can’t expect him to be honest with the OP. It is not very realistic to expect honesty from the CS who is being clearly dishonest to his BS and marriage. The CS has some unaddressed issues.

      So what is the real truth? It is what ever truth one chooses to believe, and that can change minute to minute, day to day, and will hopefully stabilize over time. I supposed this is the irrational rollercoaster behavior that the CS exhibits. Over time the CS figures out what he believes is his truth. The BS and OP also figure out their version of truths. But there really is no one “real truth”, just numerous different perspectives.

      Generally all beginning relationships beginning with the “in love” feeling, are a drug induced fantasy (ie. the fog). The couple imagines and creates what they hope will become a true loving relationship. But it is not until you really get to know someone over time, day in and day out, that their real true nature comes through. That is when real love takes over. Over time individuals try to learn to accept one other for who they are, warts and all. Often times they have to give and take, and work together for what each feels is best for each other and the relationship. This may include not voicing opinions strongly to keep the peace in the relationship. If something is important enough, it is should be brought up for discussion. Sometimes, people just disagree, or agree to disagree. Others argue over and over about the same things.

      Most CS realize over time, what they had really wasn’t as bad as they imagined, in fact, there is a lot of good in the marriage that they don’t want give up after all. Maybe the grass wasn’t really greener on the other side, just different and new. And different and new isn’t necessarily better. With different and new, comes different and new problems, along with the same old problems.

      Reply to this comment
      • 

        jacklyn
        

        03. Oct, 2011

        > Affairs create a toxic environment for a marriage. 

        What I am saying is the toxic environment existed BEFORE the affair. The affair simply worsened it.

        >  “in love” feeling is always temporary, as opposed to true loves day to day kind of feeling. 

        All love starts that way, not just affairs.  What bothers me to no end is the notion that a love a CS can have for the OP couldn’t possibly be real, simply because it was an affair, or simply because he choses to stay with the BS. People don’t always stay together for the right reasons.  And simply being married to a person doesn’t automatically put some magic Pixie dust on the quality of that relationship.  

        Sure many affairs could be a fog.  But it is a little harder to justify it as a fog when it was a long-term relationship.   For myself and my partner, we served on the same civic board for over a decade.  We got to know each other under fire over a long stretch of time, in good times and bad times.  Our affair didn’t start for more than 5 years of us spending a non-trivial time amount of time together. Before we re-met each other as adults, we lived on the same cul-de-sac. So we knew each other very well, warts and all. They say that if love lasts more than 6-12 months, then it is more than simply infatuation. That would indicate far more than a fog. Loving one person doesn’t automatically mean that any other love you feel is less real.
          
        >Sometimes, people just disagree, or agree to disagree. Others argue over and over about the same things.

        The 1st could be a healthy situation depending on the nature and the quantity of the disagreements. The second, is unhealthy.  And even if one’s truth is that the second is ok, from a shrink perspective, it isn’t ok.  Justifying not-ok behavior may be one’s personal truth, but it isn’t a truth rooted in a healthy self-esteem.  That is why you see victims of familial molestation defending people who molested them. They love and hate the person who hurt them and cannot separate the two, because they are damaged.  It may be their truth, but it isn’t a truth that you or I would ever defend as a healthy choice.  I mentioned that I still get notes on my car, after three years. How much more time does she need to ‘wait it out’ and see? And everyone knows that she continues to do this.  But since her daddy owns the town, they simply ignore it.  Can you honestly defend those behaviors as justifiable after we have had no contact for all of this time? No wonder it’s difficult for me to get over it. It isn’t as if CS returned back to his civic life, or his regular activity or his friends either.  So did he realize the grass was greener at home.  I’m not sure if the situation can be broken down  as who’s grass is greener.  I think it is far more twisted than that.  Perhaps in your situation it is different. I can tell by your writing style that you have empathy and introspection. So in your situation all that you have said is likely to be true.  But that doesn’t mean it goes across the board to all affair situations.  The person I told you about who left their marriage after 20 years, regretting every day of it, ended it with an affair.  Even then, they said they would have stayed and endured it for longer for the sake of the kids. They tried for more than a year. But the BS made his life living hell and he decided he couldn’t stay.  But not everyone is that strong. Some people will stay, even if they aren’t happy and would rather not be with the BS.  And it may not be because they want to be with the OP, but simply that they want to be OUT of the marriage period.  The affair may have just been an exit. I stayed in my marriage for 22 years.  I knew I wanted out in year 5.  

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        • 

          Jackie
          

          03. Oct, 2011

          My generalizations are just that, generalizations. Each situation is very different. I am only presenting my overall view of what I have learned during these last few years, in hopes of helping others find peace of mind due to an affair.

          The fantasy I talk about referred mainly to the CS. I never said there was no real connection between the affair partners. Nor did I say, what you personally felt was all a fantasy. We all are capable of loving many people. In fact, most if not all of our marriages and relationships started out that way. The fantasy is based on a connection that is real.

          The fantasy comes into play when the CS thinks he can have it all. To have a secret emotional relationship with the OP and honest emotional relationship with the BS in his marriage, is a fantasy. For it to be fair, the CS need to be honest with the BS as to what is going on, and allow the BS to make a choice as to whether she wants this kind of relationship or not. The CS’s sneaking around and lying are very destructive behaviors. Usually both OP and BS each want an exclusive relationship with the CS. The CS is often lying to both the OP and the BS to keep the fantasy going. As I said before, the CS is also rationalizing it all to himself, that this is an okay thing to do with other people’s emotions. This is cruel emotionally for the CS and OP, and very selfish on the CS’s part. This is all self serving crazy making.

          I suppose the OP has their own version of the fantasy too. Believing a married person wants an honest relationship outside his marriage, is in a sense a fantasy. The reality is that the CS is married, and if the CS is unhappy he should get divorce and be free to pursue his happiness. The OP can justify and rationalize all they want, but it is still a fact that the CS is married. (Please don’t take this as an attack! It is not meant to be one.)

          The reality is that, one has to choose how they want to live their life. That it is wrong to start another relationship before completely severing the first one. Affair triangles cause too much emotional hurt and betrayal for all the parties involved. I supposed it is because most CS abandon one person emotionally for another. It is a cruel treatment of people’s emotions, both the BS and the OP. Using an affair is a coward’s way out for some. For others, they fall into an affair, and have trouble getting back out because of the addictive qualities of the “in love” feelings. And for still others, an affair can happen for another one of many reasons sa health, time of life, stress etc… Each CS has their own reason for cheating. Some CS just don’t know why they cheat, nor do they want to know why. Other CS are trying to understand and fix their problems.

          It is for each of us to determine why we get involved in our unhealthy behaviors, whether it be drugs, alcohol, over work, affairs, or any other means of escape, rather than deal directly with our pained emotions. All these are part of our imperfect human condition.

          I just know for me, after all this pain, I will never choose to start an affair, and never choose to allow myself to get involved with someone who is not available, that is married, attached, or emotionally unavailable. I have seen and felt too much pain already in this life time. I don’t need to create more unhealthy drama in my life.

          I, as well as everyone here, am trying to find meaning to what went wrong, to learn and grow from mistakes I have made to contribute to this. We must all deal with the damage caused in our lives due to the affair. There are also many things that are not in my power to change, and those I must learn to deal with.

          Some people get stuck in blame, anger, bitterness, and pain. I suppose this is where many people get hung up. That may help to explain the BS’s behavior towards you. It is so much easier to blame others, than to look at one’s self and one’s own life, than to accept where you are and focus on where you are going. But being stuck isn’t learning and growing from the experience. Move on, learn and grow from your mistakes. That is the best we can each do, to better our life and that of others.

          Reply to this comment
          • 

            Jacklyn
            

            03. Oct, 2011

            I think you have wrapped this thread up nicely.

            Reply to this comment
23. 

    Jackie
    

    03. Oct, 2011

    Thanks Jacklyn. And thanks for adjusting your name, to ease confusion.

    Reply to this comment
24. 

    Gizfield
    

    07. Jun, 2012

    If you think you know somebody “warts and all” cause you work together for years our live on the same street you are in a fog. When you live with someone for years, and have seen them in all situations, then you might begin to know them. Has your friend seen you when you are angry, hungry, up all night with a child, when you have had no make up or shower, when you have been sick for a week, when you are hurling your guts out? I didnt think so…

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25. 

    Gizfield
    

    07. Jun, 2012

    Oh, I forgot the special events of pregnancy, like gaining 60 pounds due to edema and high blood pressure, and seeing a ten pound baby shoot out your ass, lol. I’m really surprised anybody stays married after that! Yet they do…maybe thats what love is about, not some retarded text messages and sappy love songs. Maturity is a bitch, isn’t it?

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