Here is a guest post from “Mary C.” where she delves into situations when the affair partner should be confronted after there was cheating in a relationship.
By Mary C.
Once again, I will refer to the other person as a woman. It’s only because I am a woman and other women are what I had to deal with. Please know that I’m referring to male or female, whatever your case may be.
When my husband cheated on me, I was unable to resist the compulsion to see what she looked like. I remember how strange it was to see the other woman for the first time. I expected to see an evil vixen with long raven hair and an hourglass figure (there might have been some fangs involved in my image of her, as well). Instead, I saw a normal woman.
My first perception was to question how this woman could lure my husband away from me. There was nothing remarkable about her, how dare he cheat on me with her. I guess I wanted to deem her as someone who put my husband under a spell. I wanted to think he was powerless to resist her advances. Now I was definitely angry.
I think that’s what a lot of us do. We come up with this notion of the other person, which is usually nothing like they actually are in real life.
In my case, I was insulted that he would cheat on me with a normal woman. I wanted to justify his actions by thinking an exquisite beauty reached out and snatched my husband away from me. How was he so weak that this woman could tempt him into deceiving me.
After the Affair is Discovered
There are several things that could happen after you discover the affair:
- Your spouse immediately tells the other person that the affair has to end now and the other person agrees.
- Your spouse does the same thing, but the other person does not agree and won’t let it go.
- Your spouse drags his feet about ending the affair.
- Your spouse tells you he has ended the affair when he really hasn’t.
First thing is to find out which one has happened. The only way you can accomplish that is if your spouse is entirely candid with you.
You’ll need to know everywhere he goes and everything he does, including phone calls and texts. Of course, you’ll probably question if he is being honest with you about that as well.
Here’s a short video from Carol Erb, Ph.D. on this topic:
When Should it Be You Who Confronts the Other Person?
If you find that the affair has unquestionably ended, that’s the easiest scenario. You can then start to make the decision whether to end or rebuild the marriage. There is most likely nothing to be gained by confronting her.
Any of the other scenarios will not be so straightforward. If the other person refuses to let it go, someone will have to deal with her. I presume it would be best if your spouse does that, but he tried once without success. With any luck, if your spouse ignores the other person’s calls and advances, she will finally give up and go away.
If your spouse is dragging his feet or is dishonest about ending the affair, you have to decide if it’s a waste of your time to even fight for the marriage.
I’ve always heard you should never give a man an ultimatum. I’m pretty sure it must have been a man who said that. I say hogwash. If he is wimping out about getting the job done, I say it’s either time for an ultimatum or for reminding him where the door is located.
Confronting the Other Person
The other alternative is to confront her yourself. If you are anything like me, you would like nothing more than to get medieval on her, particularly if she is refusing to leave him alone. However, it’s best to resist that urge and maintain your dignity.
I’m not even sure what should be said to her. You could tell her that she is only causing herself more grief by hanging on because you have no intention of giving up on your marriage. If you have children, you can tell her that not only is she hurting you and your husband, but also there are children involved that will be hurt.
If she has any sense of decency, that might work, but don’t bet on it. She has justified having an affair with a married man. If all that fails and she is married as well, inform her you will be discussing it with her husband. If she’s not married, maybe her parents would be interested in the situation.
Talking to her could even give you some insight to what caused this affair in the first place. Maybe she knows something that you don’t about what’s going on in your husband’s mind. I don’t know. It just depends on the situation. If anyone has had a similar experience, what did you do?
What is Her Justification?
How is she justifying having an affair with a married man? There could be a million answers to that question. I’d be willing to bet she could have a low self-esteem. Being able to take someone’s husband is a boast to her ego. Maybe she has been cheated on and it gives her a feeling of revenge. It could be that taking someone’s husband gives her a sense of power. Who knows? Who really cares? Nothing justifies it if she is aware he is in a committed relationship.
That’s another scenario. You confront her and find out she didn’t know he was married. Then it would be in your husband’s best interest to make some long-term travel arrangements.
In any event, you shouldn’t have to be the one to confront her and resolve the situation. This is not your problem…it’s his. You can choose to help or not.
Please share with us how your situation played out. Did you confront the other person or did your spouse take care of it? Did the other person go away peacefully or not?
*Originally posted on 2/11/2013 and updated on 6/15/2021.
95 replies to "Cheating in a Relationship – Should the Other Person Be Confronted?"
The OW in my case was petite, hourglass figure and long raven haired… but anyway.
My H ‘broke it off’ sort of at DDay#1 by an email saying that he needed to give his wife a chance but it was doomed to fail as I was such a negative person and that he’d be back in touch with her soon. So, he didn’t so much break it off and just put it on ice and leave the freezer door open. She apparently called him in tears and kept emailing him about her day using their private email account and he kept reading it but didn’t respond.
With 18 months of hindsight I can see that she must have had serious low self-esteem to be ‘sort-of’ dumped for the wife but expected to ‘hold-on’ a bit and then actually hold on for a bit. You don’t have high self-esteem and keep hanging on for crumbs.
When I finally discovered this background contact was ongoing despite him saying he hadn’t heard from her at all he got the ultimatum that it was NC or nothing. I took advice from here and helped him write the email to her and finally got passwords to all his accounts, got him to change his number and delete the private accounts as well as dump her from BBM and LinkedIn. (None of that was done willingly I might add but showing him that I’d found her on a dating site where she’d posted naked images of herself, seemed to help). Her last shot was an email to him saying that she respected his decision (ha!) but that “he was entitled to fly freely and not be trapped in by those that would clip his wings”, or some such other bollocks. pardon my french.
I had always wanted to confront her but knew it wouldn’t achieve much. She never tried to contact me and indeed never even knew my name or even where we lived, until the email I helped write. I still have occassional fantasies about pitching up on her doorstep, it still annoys me that she could meddle in my marriage from a safe distance like some sort of emotional drone.
sometimes when I’m feeling unmotivated in my exercise regime I remember the images I saw of her on my H’s private email account and it usually makes me angry enough to run a bit faster.
It sounds like you handled this very well. “clipped his wings”. Seriously? Do these women smoke crack? I guess someone who is willing to settle for the tablescraps of someone else’s relationship, will come up with all kinds of ridiculousness to justify their choices.
What do you do when the OW *is* (as in my case) more beautiful than you are, significantly younger, more glamorous, more famous, more talented? I didn’t struggle with this at all at first, but now I really do. Why wouldn’t a man choose her over me? I know that sounds pathetic, but that’s kinda where I am now, especially because — as some of you know — she’s coming to the university where both my H and I work in two weeks to give a concert. So her lovely, beautiful face is plastered EVERYWHERE on posters advertising the event, and everyone is soooo excited that someone of her talent is coming here.
Honestly, I don’t know what I’ll do if I do run into her — burst into tears? Tell her off? Ignore her? She got away with the EA scot-free — no consequences for her. She insisted to me in an e-mail that she never ‘meant harm,’ that she never told my H to leave me and the family (wrong — I saw her text messages saying just this), that she wasn’t in daily contact with him (wrong again — I have the records), and that she always ‘wished my family much happiness (while getting physical with my H in Paris? Please, bitch). God, I hate her, and I hate my H sometimes for letting her harm me and our children.
Carol, I wish I had some profound words of encouragement. My heart bleeds for you right now. You ARE beautiful and I’m sure you have talents that exceed hers’ in your own glorious way. Younger isn’t better just less wise. I think she has proven that along with her shoddy character. Don’t give her ANY power! She will pay one day – you may not be there to see it but believe me she will pay – I’ve witnessed it too many times with people I know. And remember, YOU ARE wonderful just as you are!!!!!!
Carol, there is nothing beautiful about this piece of slime.
Carol
I have been thinking about you so much since the calendar turned to February. I remembered you saying the OW was coming to your university I think you said the 22nd. I wish I were there to draw mustaches on all her flyers!!
I think when we BS say that the OW was less than us in any way, looks, talents, brains whatever, we are looking for an excuse for our H’s betrayal. “Well of course he strayed. Look at that talented beauty. How could he have possibly resisted her?” It’s too hard to imagine that it wasn’t her looks but how SHE made him feel about himself.We girls have been conditioned over our life that if we are pretty etc. our men won’t look at anyone else. Those are hard beliefs to kill. We want to forgive those we love. We look for excuses for them and maybe find an answer to why they went to the OW in the first place. I know this, there is always going to be someone younger, prettier, hotter, smarter, sharper, than me. If I have to worry that my H will stray if he finds one, well I may as well bag it NOW! I look at that asshole General Petraeus and that cheap whore he hooked up with. Now there is his little wife who has moved 24 times to support his career. Built her own career around his and he hooks up with that dumb ass. Yes she is younger and physically prettier (now) than his wife, but for Pete’s sake his wife is way more beautiful for what she did for him so he could have his successes. This is not to say that we shouldn’t be mindful of how we present ourselves to the world. When I think of how I have showed up at the office when the OW worked I cringe. Nomakeup, hair unwashed, I looked like the cleaning lady!!! I didn’t think it made a difference. Well it did for ME. I have more confidence now when I leave the house. I don’t look too bad for an old girl 🙂
I am sure you are selling yourself short too. YOU ARE A UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR!!!! Do you know what I would give to be smart enough to do what you do???? That prima dona is a selfish asshole. Her looks will fade and she will age, then what?? And you know her voice will leave her too. I hope sooner than later for that!!! Don’t even think you are any less than she is! Hang in there. I can’t imagine handling all those triggers everyday. I hope your H is sensitive to it. COURAGE!!!
Thanks so much, FCOL, Tryinghard, and Rachel. I am going to cope with seeing these damn posters of the OW all the time by printing out your kind comments and putting them up in a corner of my office only I can see. I felt the same way about the Petraeus affair — there were so many cruel comments in the reactions to the news stories (those CNN boards are poisonous) about how his wife had ‘let herself go’ (to put it politely) and that it’s no wonder he went after the OW. Sometimes I wish we could have a day on which we’d all be transformed on the outside so that our physical appearance would manifest the beauty — or ugliness — of our character. By that standard, I bet Holly Petraeus would be one of the most beautiful women ever seen. It’s amazing to me how quickly you can lose your sense of yourself in all of this, how deeply this can erode your self-esteem. It’s exhausting to keep reminding yourself that the affair was about him, not her; that character is more important in the long run than looks; etc. But remind ourselves we must.
Carol, we all have extreme beauty inside as well as out. To have gone through this nightmare.
We are good people.
Peace.
Hi Carol, my heart aches for you. I don’t know how you can stand to look at those posters. I wish I could take a sharpie and write CHEATER next to tryinghard’s mustaches!!!!
But here is what I know. Fat, thin, ugly, beautiful, rich, poor, successful, loser, whatever. The outside package doesn’t matter. And those are all externally defined things. But what about the inside? While she may “appear” to “have it all”, she is clearly a miserable person, with no self-esteem and no morals. If she was what she “appears” to be, she wouldn’t be out trolling for another woman’s husband. She would have her own, and she would be happy enough to stay faithful to him, and enjoy her money and fame. I pity someone who “has it all” and appreciates none of it. You on the other hand, are someone who DOES have it all. You are smart, kind, confident, compassionate, and caring. It comes through and I have never met you. You WON. NONE of her “external” trappings were enough to steal y our husband. It may have tricked him for a short time, but he see who she REALLY is. Confidence is hard to come by right now, believe me I know. My husband had an EA/PA with a parasite who outweighs me by a hundred pounds. I have the opposite thoughts…..am I SO BAD, THAT was better?? Hang in there! I could go out in the yard, gather up dog crap, mold it into a pretty shape, paint it, cover it with glitter and feathers and pretty sequins, but eventually all that shine would wear off. Underneath? Still a stinking hunk of CRAP. You, my friend? Are a diamond. Polish it! Shine!!!!
Exercise Grace,
Very well said
Yes, very well said EG!
My personal situation was interesting as my H was having an EA with a woman at work AND an involvement with a woman he knew from years earlier and he had maintained a “friendship” with this persons elderly mother. When I discovered all this stuff my sister in law told me my H (in her opinion) had a history of being attracted to needy women. So, I confronted the EA person thru email and she said she did not know my H was a married man-he lied to her. I told her my H has a pattern of lying and deception so I acknowledged he took advantage of her and gave her some history-but I then gave her a piece of my mind as she was married also and this stupid stuff went on in the workplace. She defended herself by telling me I couldn’t possibly understand her as she had lost a child(I investigated and discovered her teenage son died from drugs.) I emailed her that I prayed she wasn’t using the loss of her child as her pat excuse for irresponsible, crass and low class behavior in the workplace. She had already told my husband to get lost because she saw he had “RED FLAG” all over him. I discovered the EA the day after she had dumped him. I told her I knew what it was like to be struggling in a marriage-she complained about her husband to my H in emails, but my husband was NOT the answer to her problems and getting involved with men the way she did with him probably wasn’t going make life better. I have no regrets whatsoever that I confronted her and said what I had to say. The other person he was talking to and “helping” is a bigger between even now 2 years later as he maintains that while he should not have been associating with her behind my back, he did nothing wrong. This chick is totally clueless about marriage and protecting your relationship from intruders. My H did email her breaking all contact at my insistence and she emailed back and lambasted me for not allowing him to keep their “long time friendship”. Of course this silly woman didnt have the whole picture as my H manipulated her under the guise that he is a helpful person and wanted her to treat her mother better! As I write this I am laughing as I know my H was doing the 2 step and lying to so many people that he thinks he was caring for and being helpful. what a screwball!
I hope 8 years have treated you well and brought peace and healing! I am 2 years post D-day reading this. My husband’s so- called break up of his midlife crisis affair with a teenager are disgustingly similar to what you described. He told her he was going to give me one last chance, but don’t worry, I will fail and blow it because “she always does.” Thank you for sharing. I really hope somehow you aren’t defined by such callous pain as I am currently.
This is a question I’ve wanted to ask….but never had the right discussion topic to ask, and I think this is a good time. From the betrayed’s point of view, how do you want the OW to act if you confronted her? There’s a good chance I may see her in a few months and if I do, how should I act? Should I wait to see if she approaches me….should I approach her and apologize….should I act like it never happened? Just wanting to hear thoughts (and advice) from the other side.
Thanks.
Sidney
First I want to to say how much I respect you for even caring about the BS. I wouldn’t presume to understand where you are coming from but given your input on this sight I believe you are truly remorseful for your part in the EX/PA with a married man. You have been helpful in answering some of my concerns about the OW.
The last thing we BS want is to be surprised by your presence. We are constantly surveying parking lots and restaurants for a possible encounter. The only thing I can compare it to is a snake. If you know the snake is in your yard you are careful and prepared when you go out there. However If the snake sneaks up on you, you react irrationally, jumping screaming and trying to kill it. Please don’t think I am comparing you to a snake 🙂 ok well maybe a little bit–sorry that’s just my crazy projection 🙂
So with all that do you think you could send her a note or letter telling her how sorry you are for your part in the relationship.? Maybe telling her that you are truly remorseful for your part in hurting her and her family. That you now realize how selfish and unproductive it was and that you needed to let her know you were sorry? Don’t expect any forgiveness from her and yes she may send a visceral response, but at least YOU have set an amicable tone for a possible run in. Also if it has been some time since the affair was over, and yes maybe even verify to her that the affair has been over for a X amount of time and you also want NC from her H. She’s mainly worried that you still have some kind of hold on him and if you verify to her that you do not, nor do you want to, I think she would go easy on you when you see her.
Do not apologize to her in a social situation. Do not even look in their direction. Even if you send the letter to her, do not approach them. Now she may approach you but if you have set the tone I do not believe she will do anything we crazy BS like to do, or think that we would like to do 🙂
If I confronted the OW she wouldn’t have a chance to react, she’d be knocked out 🙂
What are your thoughts?
Tryinghard, that was very well written. Personally, I do not want to speak to the OW ever again. I trusted her, allowed her in my home and she betrayed me in every way possible. Her choice to “aggressively pursue” (her words” my husband, hurt my kids tremendously. In our case, she is not one bit sorry, except for pitying herself. It is my opinion that IF anything, the OW should write a brief apology. But in truth, there is NO EXCUSE for cheating. NO excuse for tearing a family apart. To me an apology would really be meaningless. What could she say to me? That she is a selfish, self-serving woman with no morals? I already know it. And Sidney, this is not an attack on YOU, I am talking about the OW in my own world.
Sidney,
Why and where are you anticipating seeing her? Is this something you avoid by not attending a certain event? That would be the best way to handle it.
I don’t know if you have ever apologized to her in writing or in word. If you have, it is time to drop it. Honestly, I would probably perceive being approached as being aggressive, and her trying to reinsert herself into my world. To be blunt, most affairs and affair partners are viewed by the cheating spouse as the biggest mistake of their life. Most are trying hard to make sure their spouse knowns that they love them and the affair meant nothing. They are trying to build a new normal and not think about that awful chapter in their lives. Betrayed spouses are likely dealing with the emotional damage done to their children. For me that is the hardest part of all this. What the choices of two very selfish people has done to my kids.
That’s an interesting question Sydney.
I think if the BS knows of you and knows the details of what happened, then I think it would be sensible to try and be sensitive, apologetic and avoid saying anything that sounds even vaguely like an excuse for what happened. If she avoids even looking at you then don’t do anything and certainly don’t try to engage in chat with the MM if she’s stonewalling rather than confronting you.
Other than that, it’s difficult to say as it depends on the BS herself. Perhaps for safety make sure any potential encounter is in company or public?
Sydney, why would you go somewhere she is? I know you’re here in sincerity and mean the best, but honestly it’s best to leave this woman alone. If you are going somewhere and you know she’ll be there, don’t go. I’m sorry if you feel it isn’t fair, but you weren’t fair to her when you had an affair with her husband. Leave her in peace and stay away from any events she’ll be attending. She deserves that at the very least.
If you do end up somewhere she is, you should leave. No questions asked, just leave. If you cannot do that, and she approaches you, you should apologize and be honest. If she asks you questions, answer them. If she tells you off, just continue to say you are sorry. Then leave.
That’s it really. You destroyed this woman’s world. Please let her have her social life intact. If one of you must suffer, it really should be you.
Sydney, Thanks for the very good question.
A little ( I promise) background. My H had EA. OW works in town 18 miles from our home. Met online – somehow. They never met. Chatted and phoned each other.
We are doing super well. My H has quit drinking. Also takes meds for bipolar disorder. Did some couples counseling.
My remaining problem, I feel, is wanting to confront the OW. I have seen her. I have written and sent her a letter. I want to sit across from her. I want answers. I want her to have to face me. I have asked her for this several times. She refuses. She apologized for “intruding into my life” in an e-mail just after D day. Soon will be one year. My H is at a meeting tonight. It s the same meeting he was at a year ago when I accidently discovered his EA. Oh the trigger. That is why I am online. My H and I had a recent blowup about me being on this site. He doesn’t think it will allow me to ever move on. I don’t know. Just know I came on tonight – 1st time in a while and found this awesome post and your question Sydney.
I say, ask the OW if she has any questions. Be honest. If you have truly recognized your problems, your ugliness own up to it, Be willing to talk with her if that is what she wants.
I wish I had confronted when the affair was going on and I suspected as much. Instead I believed his lies. By the time I found out the truth, the affair had been over for a year (he ended it) and she had just left the company. An additional year later, we are still dealing with her bunny boiling, cyber-bullying crap. To the point of involving our attorney at one point. Now we ignore it. She is pathetic. In a sad way, she has made it easier for me, because she has painted an unbelievable picture for my husband of what happens when you cheat on your wife. That someone you “thought” was your friend, that you “thought” was normal, can turn psycho when they don’t get their way!
EG
I agree with you and your point of view where the bunny boiler is concerned. You already know the woman and know that she is NOT remorseful and even dangerous. Of course there is not excuse I’m saying a sincere apology can help diffuse any situation. As much as I hate the OW if she apologized to me sincerely, and I would know, I would at least be able to start the process of forgiveness. As yet she hasn’t apologized and I have no motivation to forgive her and I still vilify her. If she came up to me in public with any kind of attitude I would probably at the very least tell her off.
As much as our H’s are responsible for their choices and commitments to us the OW have to accept their part in interfering in our marriages. There’s also the “unwritten law of sisterhood” that they broke. They owe us an apology. How we respond is our responsibility.
TH
I totally agree with everything you said. In a normal situation, a sincere apology would be an important step to forgiving and moving the healing process forward. In truth, I believe there are people that can forgive even when they have NOT received an apology of any kind. While I admire that, really the only apology that matters to me is the one from my husband.
Sorry if I sounded harsh. I am trying to help my oldest deal with some issues of her own brought on by the affair. Trying to soothe my husband as he is shattered by the thought of how his choices have hurt her.
Yes, there is an “unwritten law of sisterhood”! But also one of humanity and decency. I truly believe these women have the attitude that they are “competing” with the wife, and if they “win”, then it’s the wife’s own fault for not “holding onto” her man. In truth, they are hurting innocent children, and destroying families.
I sent the other woman 3 or 4 emails over the course of three months, telling her I loved my husband and she was hurting my children. She never replied. I also finally sent a letter to her husband. I guess none of it was effective because my husband informed today that he is moving on and I should too.
I wish she would tell me what she tells herself to make this OK. She has played a huge role in tearing apart two families as she is married with kids, too. I know my husband pursued her, but she didn’t have to take his calls.
Why would she be interested in a man who lies and sneaks and cheats. How can she love a man who would betray his wife and hurt his children? That’s all she knows of him. I knew the man he was before he became an adulterer and that is why stayed. Why would she want what he is now?
“What she tells herself to make this OK.” I’ve asked my H what he told himself to make it OK, and he says he didn’t. He knew it was wrong, but at the time it made him feel good and that just seemed terribly important, so he shoved the wrongness out of his mind. (I believe him when he says he regrets it now, but unfortunately that doesn’t undo the damage.) My guess is that the OW felt the same way – it was an ego boost to have an attractive person be interested, and it seemed like a relief from the problems of real life.
“Why would she be interested in a man who lies and sneaks and cheats.” Probably because that is what they have in common. My H’s OW was also married, so she was also lying, cheating and sneaking, betraying her husband and hurting her children. If she’d allowed herself to realize what a whore my H was, she’d have had to face the fact that she was a whore, too.
And YES! to violating the law of sisterhood. How in the world can you do that to another woman? Her husband cheated on her a few years ago…she knows what it is like to be in my shoes, and yet she persisted. What kind of a woman does that?
I made contact with the OW just three days after I discovered an email on my husbands phone. I also called her husband and her employer. Unfortunately, I ended up finding out most of the details of the affair from her because my H was a total coward when it came to being honest and transparent. He would only confirm the facts once i did all the investigative work. So I did what I had to do, to find out what I HAD to know. I have heard people say they don’t want details, and that is fine. However, I did not stop until I got the “rest of the story”. She kept insisting that she had told her H everything. But that didn’t stop me from calling him, only to find out that she had NOT told him. When two consenting adults make the decision to cheat… To hell with their feelings when the fallout starts! There were no children involved in this fiasco. Thank goodness!
MonaLesia, my story is similar to urs in many ways. I initially found an email from my husband to the OW on new years eve 2010. Initially he lied and told me it was to a woman from the set where he was filming and had just been a friendship that had over stepped a few boundaries! I was not happy with the explanation but he swore it was the truth apologised andsaid he wouldnt talk to her again. Two days later I asked to look at his phone at which point he practically turned white (quite a feat given he is black 😉 and hurriedly tried to start deleting stuff. I told him if he didn’t hand the phone over immediately, I was leaving any way. I discovered several dubious texts which in hindsight, he had to be on crack to think I would believe his explanations for. But honestly, the thought after 24 years of love, friendship, 2 gorgeous kids and my support, that he could do anything like this to me; was unthinkable. Still, something didn’t settle in me, I played around with his phone a little more and typed “Trevor” into his contacts as this was the name he had the “woman from work” under. Up popped the name and email address of a woman from our kids athletics club!! I nearly vomitted and things started to become clear! Against his wishes (WTF) I emailed her and asked her firmly but politely to leave us alone to sort out our relationship because I knew I would be continuously bumping into her and her kids at the club. I later found out my husband had discussed the email with her and they’d decided she would not respond – these actions of his still cause me huge pain – that he would let me fight for our relationship whilst he joins the enemy to betray my strategies effectively!! After two more months of lying and a wonderful holiday in paradise just the two of us, things continued to bother me but I couldn’t accept that he would swear on our kids lives he was being truthful and still lie on and on! When we returned from our holiday, I got the kids out of the house and made him call her on his mobile on speaker. He just told her read the email I have sent (which I had requested he do before I would go the holiday with him) effectively ending the “friendship” as I still had no idea what had been going on. She said, “is this how you’re ending our 12 month relationship.” he hung up and the biggest nightmare and pain of my life began. Like ur husband, he was still too much of a coward to come clean, OMG, no balls at all. That meant that despite all he’d put me through and my threat to go to her house there and then to get the truth, he was prepared to leave me doing so!! Also, the deluded, misguided idiot thought the OW was such a good person, so kind, intelligent, unique that she would lie for him too. I turned up there to see this older woman, false eye lashes, false boobs, false nails, dyed black hair and thick makeup on. One of those that looks really good from a distance (say 10kms) but close up…..NO!!
She was only too happy to give me her totally blameless, victim side of the story, tell me they had been out as a couple to concerts, a restaurant, hotel etc which shocked me to the core as my husband would stand out a mile in this city! She handed me a bag of gifts he had given her including vibrators and lubricant (real class). She apologized saying they just couldn’t keep their hands off each other and told me she thought we could be friends given that we had both had this bad experience and probably had a lot in common (yikes!!) Her words and my husband letting me go there alone to hear them; run through my mind everyday! D day in terms of going to her house will be two years 3rd March 2012. I can be in tears instantly when one of these incidents/memories is triggered and the pain still feels so intense. That said, the ongoing lies and incoherence of his stories was sending me mad, I had to have the truth, I was literally going insane! I’m just not sure if some of the terrible things done to me in this affair can ever be forgiven – that worries me every day 🙁
Hurt&insensed,
It amazes me every time I read these responses. There are so many similarities !!! My H has 2 children by another marriage. When the shit hit the fan, he too swore on his children’s lives that he had NEVER physically met the OW. How on earth someone could do that is beyond me. He too believed that the whore would keep the dirty little secrets. However, after I chided her via emails by telling her some ugly comments that my H made about her, she was more than happy to spill it all. I actually set down and made a list of ten questions that I intended to ask her. I gave them to my H so he could have the opportunity to come clean before I made the call. The bastard still lied and said he just couldn’t answer things that did not happen. What a piece of shit!! We attended counseling for two long years and he lied to her too. Hell, by that time he even had the counselor believing him. Once all the details were finally out, I insisted we go back to the counselor so he could admit to his lies. I just don’t understand…..I am 3 years out and I still have lots of bad days. The death of a marriage is a sad thing.
I have never met the OW and never want to (although at times I have fantasized about things I might say to her!) The affair was already over by D-Day. However, my H still had her and some of her friends (who may or may not have known about the affair) listed as his Facebook friends, as well as some pictures that had been taken in social situation during the affair. When he wimped out about deleting the pictures and unfriending the whore and her pals, I gave him an ultimatum and he did it. If I were to find myself at an event where she was present (unlikely) I think I would just try to keep my distance and ignore her. From what I know of her it seems unlikely she would be apologetic. As for insight into the affair, I’m only interested in my husband’s motivations and feelings, not the whore’s.
The OW was not directly in my H’s life by D-day. (My MIL and the OW’s mom are friends which is why I no longer have a relationship with my MIL.)
In the beginning I would have relished the opportunity to meet the OW but nothing positive would have come of it. I’m thankful now I’ve never had contact with her. I truly don’t care how she feels, what she thinks about the EA or me. Most of all I don’t need her apology. She lied and cheated herself! She didn’t care about the children involved including her own. She let herself down not me. My H did that.
To Sidney: Let it alone and leave her alone. You mean nothing to her and at best she pities you.
I simply cannot imagine continuing a friendship with someone whose daughter did that to my son and my daughter-in-law. While it is not that woman’s fault, and I would say so to her, I would also tell her that family comes first. Ugh. Sorry you have to deal with this additional stress of his poor choice.
EG, You and me both. The ugly part is my MIL, H, OW (old high school GF) and the OW’s mother were all involved in the “reconnection”. It’s an ugly and twisted story.
haha, I cannot believe that sadly there is the belief in a ‘bond of sisterhood’. It doesn’t exist and we all know it. Women stab each other in the back, talk nastily about each other, etc. I don’t even make friends with women usually because they are so catty.
Regarding why anyone would want a cheater – well sillies, he isn’t “a cheater”, it’s just that their ‘loooooooove” is soooooooo strong. He would NEVER do this under normal circumstances. This is only because they are SOULMATES.
LMAO – what a joke.
their loooooooove……baa ha ha ha ha ha ha
you owe me a keyboard, I just spit my drink out on mine!!!!
livingonafence, SOULMATES????? I HATE THAT WORD!!!!! BARF BARF BARF!!!
You are so right, what a joke!!!!!
Was she there when he was sick? When he threw out his back? Was she there when he had to work overtime did she coach the little league baseball game? Was she the one who cooked meals while his mother was recovering from surgery? NO IT WAS ME THE ONE HE SHIT ALL OVER!!! His day will come and I cant wait!!!!!
Loaf, amen to that sad belief about the bond of sisterhood!!!
Forcryinoutloud
You are right. There are so many people that have no empathy. They clearly act for their own benefit. Unfortunately we are married to people like that. There is an interesting post on another infidelity blog about viewing the world with through our own filters. It is very insightful and there is even a reference to a piece that was on NPR.
The point is how we judge the world by our own filters. I have many wonderful friends and aquaintences whose husbands are equally wonderful. NEVER, even if my friend were DEAD, would I consider having a physical or any other kind of “affair” with them. I have never been attracted to a married man. I really don’t get why any woman would. This is my filter. As a woman we put a lot of energy and heart into our relationships. I knew before this affair that I would be devastated if it ever happened to me and I would never do that to another woman because I am emphatic to other women’s feelings. My mother raised me to know that as a woman men would want to get as much from me that I was willing to give. She taught me that I was in charge of my body. That I had to be judicious in whom I chose to share it with. I could have all the men I wanted and what I had to question is if I wanted them. Hell no if they were married would I want them because they only wanted me for one reason! I guess OW weren’t raised well. Raised by feral dogs. What do these mothers teach their daughters?
I do like women. I like women better than men. I think they are more interesting. I like you women here on this blog. I have learned a lot from all of you. I am emphatic to your situation because I am living it myself. I worry about you women. I think you are all smart and very undeserving of the situation your H’s and mine have put us in. I don’t like putting all women in the same category as the cheating whores who chose to come into our marriages. I hope and believe they are hurting more than we are because maybe they see what fools and whores they made of themselves. I have to continue to have faith in women.
What do they tell themselves to make this ok? Well, first we BSs are MONSTERS. Cheating on us isn’t even cheating – it’s just living a little since we’ve basically killed their spirit. Then of course they remind themselves that they’ve found their real soulmate, and this is fate. Then back to us being monsters, then the soulmate garbage, and so on.
Cheaters are very good at lying not only to us BSs but to themselves.
Oh yes. My husband said he felt (at the time) abandoned. Now he can see that he is the one that created the distance between us because he liked her adoration. He can see now where he created conflict to justify what he was texting her, and later doing physically. Every good story needs a villain and I got cast in the part!
LOAF – my H did the same thing and in recent months admitted that he had to make me out to be a monster in order to cope with what he’d done. even that he encouraged me to get more isolated, more fearful and anxious about going out as the worse I was the easier it was to justify doing it. that was a devastating thing to realise, especially as during his PA/EA I had come very close to committing suicide due to depression.
he said he also had to choose to let it develop into love with the OW as otherwise he was just using her for sex, which made him feel terrible. he’d also had to admit that he’d gone to the conference where he met her for the first time with the aim of sleeping with someone else as a treat, so she wasn’t a soulmate, or even anyone special. she could’ve been anyone. A part of me would love for the OW to know that.
Some days when I look at this whole debacle and not examine each why and what for and to what avail, objectively not letting the trees block my view of the forest, I just get pissed off all over again. We all have so much in common with the exception to the details. It’s all well and good to hear that it’s “not us”, it’s something in their character/ego blahblahblah WHATEVER. The fact is they DID think they were in LOOOOOVE! They allowed themselves to fall in love with someone else while they were married to someone else. They left us for the OW. They spent money on the OW. Some of them moved in with her for a while. They acted from their selfish narcissistic tendency to feed their own egos blahblahblahblah. No matter what the “reasons” we are still left cleaning up the crap on a daily freaking basis. Triggers, reminders, names, things they said and didn’t mean. Words that were said that they did mean. WHO THE HELL KNOWS WHAT THE TRUTH IS ANYMORE!? They “loooooove us” “they looooove” the OW. Which one is real? Maybe you guys know because I sure as hell don’t.
So now do we just go on and keep dealing with the crap and the new crap that comes up everyday? Really, is this what life is about? Dealing with crap. Worrying every time we go to the grocery store, restaurants, retail stores that the real 500 lb gorilla is going to be there. For me it doesn’t make any difference if the real one is there or not because my 500 lb gorilla is my constant companion. She’s right there every morning when I wake up. Drinking my coffee. At work, driving home, ALL FREAKING DAY. Hell I think I’m having an affair with her!
So what’s best? Do we leave and start a new life somewhere else hoping the pain and that effffing gorilla dies? Do we stay and read another 50 books and go through more countless hours of therapy so that every time we make love to our husbands we aren’t pathetically hoping he’s not fantasizing he’s really with her??
I’m too old for this and that asshole I’m married to didn’t even give one iota of consideration to this. I took care of him, I put him first, I never argued with him, he did what he wanted when he wanted. He was sick who was there ME. I dealt with all the responsibilities of raising our children, I dealt with his crazy mother. I sacrificed myself for him!! So this is how it ends up, thrown out like yesterday’s trash??? I hope you OW are reading this. We are not crazy and we are not monsters. We did NOT make their lives a misery, we treated them like kings. They just saw a new shiny object in you. Don’t flatter yourself though because it could have been ANYONE! You made yourself available. They told you what you wanted hear or what they thought you wanted to hear to further their own goals. Ask yourselves this: Do you really think you are such a unique and special character that this man could open up honestly to you but not his wife?? PLEASE??? You bought his line then and we are buying his line now. Yes ladies I said his line because you know what is really important to him? His life, we just come with it. You OW should be grateful you don’t have to deal with him anymore. He truly is our problem now!
Trying hard, my husbands name is asshole too.
Tryinghard – you nailed it in this post. This is what I struggle with each and every day, and I am 1 year 7 months past d-day.
I tried texting the OW (plural). H claims they were EA’s but he has had too much time and opportunity for it to be just that. He’s sticking to his guns though. Anyway, OW1 ignored me and claimed I had the “wrong number”. OW2 admitted that nothing physical happened. I HATE that OW1 blew me off like that – oh excuse me? Is there some high road you’re trying to take? SO…. my imagination runs wild with that one. Both really, but definitely that one.
OAN – Is it just my CS, or are there others whose CS’s start trash talking their OW/OM’s? Pretty amusing that NOW you’ve been caught, the OP is a piece of crap – but not while they were of use to you. LOL. I have resisted the temptation to share this with the OW’s, but only because I don’t know what they’ll throw back at me – I’m hurt enough, I don’t think my self esteem can take another hit.
She’s probably afraid of you. Good. She should be. She knows she’s wrong but she doesn’t care. I just wish you H was more forthcoming to you. I think you know the real truth. You just need to hear it from him and he’s still in denial and I don’t mean Egypt 🙂
Yeah, I don’t know what he has to gain by not completely coming clean, and quite frankly, I don’t know what I have to gain either. I’ve already made up my mind. Closure, maybe? The divorce is coming regardless, although the timing is terrible (I’m not sure how to break it to my family and my follks are supposed to be spending the summer with us – gulp!) I really believe he will go through the divorce and to the grave denying there was ever a PA – I guess it’s common to shut things out when they are too painful. God knows I “knew” something was up, even joking about him going to see his “girlfriend” in the city, but there was a nugget of truth to what I was saying. However, it was easier to go through my own stage of denial. I mean, who wants to admit this is happening to them, right? Anyway, next stop – the clinic. My marriage is shot to pieces but that doesn’t mean my health has to follow suit.
For what it’s worth, I think he owes you complete disclosure and honesty. Divorce or no divorce. Either way you need to put this into context, and move forward with your life. He has some of the pieces to the puzzle and he should be forthcoming with those. Sounds like he is trying to protect himself from consequences that are headed his way regardless!!
Hi EG,
I have to give him credit, in that he answers any question I ask. Of course, in my mind I’m always thinking “and is THIS another lie?”, but he has never shut me down or told me to get over it. He is doing all the “right” things – counselling, passwords, changed number, put in a transfer at his job, etc. but… it’s this internal alarm that won’t stay silent. Now that I have resolved to go through with this divorce, he’s doubling his efforts to appease me. I have to say I am loving it LOL but it’s not enough to silence the internal alarm. I have questioned going to counselling myself, either solo or as a couple, but I don’t want to spend time working on a marriage that I’m not even sure about. I could spend that time on fixing my issues instead. Part of me wants to believe he is being honest, I guess mainly for the sake of our child, but then part of me thinks I’d just be playing the fool. The puzzle comment hits very close to home, and I have said before that it feels like I have all these puzzle pieces but no picture, so I’m creating my own… and it’s not a good one! ARGH! WHY do people have to be so damned dishonest? Yeah we all tell “white” lies and cover-my-butt lies but this is betrayal! And betrayal of someone you’re supposed to love! I just don’t get it.
I would encourage you to go to a counselor. I think it has been enormously healing for ME to talk to someone who is very experienced in counseling people recovering from infidelity. Even if you do proceed to divorce, I think you deserve to have some healing and peace. How far out from D-day are you?
DDay was December 7, 2012. Still fresh. Of course, he has lied pretty much about a lot of things over the course of our 10 year marriage but the proof that confirmed my worst fears was found on his phone that day. I have read (either here or on other sites on this topic) that no major decisions should be made for at least 6 months. That way you have a “calm down” period and more time to think. Initially that sounded good but there are days I find myself scouring his phone, email addresses, phone records, etc. trying to see if there’s something I’ve missed. Yes, I am in that stage of obsessing, and I hate it but it’s such a strong compulsion that I can’t resist. It’s made all the more worse by his denial that he has ever had physical contact with any other women during our marriage (he has visited strip clubs and would give out his number to people he’d meet at bars – and surprise! Many just happened to be female). I just cannot wrap my head aound that someone could stand right on the edge, with all the stuff he has done, but *never* take the plunge. If you are strong enough to resist that temptation, wouldn’t you be strong enough to resist ANY and ALL of it? But, he insists nothing sexual ever happened and… there’s nothing I can do. I will never truly know and it just seems that to divorce him will put it to rest. I mean, I know it wouldn’t (I will always think about this) but if he isn’t my husband – he isn’t my problem. I think I might get more proactive on the counseling thing. Talking to someone with a fresh prespective may help me be more sure about the decisions I am making.
Symac, I chose counseling after my h had an affair with his ex from 30 years ago. I didn’t know what to do. I thought that everything would work out. I didn’t want to listen to the counselor . My h never said he was sorry or that he wanted our 25 year marriage to work out. I went to couples counseling he never showed up. In julynhe said that he didn’t want me or our marriage. I was heart broken.
It does hurt but I do know that I could never live with the wondering if he was with her or in touch with her.
I know that there is someonenout there that will treat me with respect. Something my husband never did. Good luck.
I tend to agree with the “make no major decisions right away” school of thought. However, I believe we all also have a list of dealbreakers. For me the initial ones were he had to enter counseling immediately, both individual and marital. He had to show EFFORT. He had to prove he was willing to work on our marriage.
Personally I think couples counseling would be a good idea for you guys whether you ultimately end the marriage or not. A good therapist, experienced in infidelity can help you get at the truth. I know that is something I would need, regardless of which way things went.
If it’s any help, it took a good three months for me to get the “whole” truth out of my husband and it took counseling to do it. He really didn’t grasp at first that lying or minimizing the truth wasn’t “protecting” me, it was MORE lying and it HURT me. The first months are the roughest. Trust your instincts. If you feel there is more to it, there probably is. He needs to understand you are serious about what you are asking for. He may truly want to save the marriage, but is afraid that the whole truth would push you right out the door.
He has a therapy session next week (I think), and I am toying with the idea of going with him. I think having that conversation will help me greatly.
I have told my husband that he had only two choices – save himself or save the marriage. He could not do both.
Even though we are on good terms, and maintaining a pretty “happy” home, divorce is still very much in the cards. I think he thinks because everything is going good that I have changed my mind, but it is not in my interest nor our child’s to have an unhappy home.
We’ll see what counseling brings – i would love to hear the therapists opinion on hwo realistic it is that my husband could do AAALLLLLL these things for all these years… and yet never touch another woman. That just isn’t passing the smell test.
That is the worst! Knowing/seeing the affair and not being able to say anything. I imagined confronting my H and ruining our marriage because I no longer trusted him! So I waited it out for months…only to see it up close and personal. I hate that I do not know which had been better, confronting him early on or waiting until I had solid proof. And now we have no trust! bah!
I asked my husband this question. What would have happened if I had taken a harder stance? Put more effort into “catching them”, instead of waiting and trusting? He says now that he was not in his right state of mind and he might not have made the right choices. He ended it on his own, so I have to hold on to that.
I wish I would have read this sooner! I found out about my husbands second EA about 2 weeks ago. It was going on with a co worker of his that I was actually sort of “friends” with. (she lives in a diff state). Anyway, once I found out, I sent her a facebook message. (yes we were FB friends and she was always commenting and being friendly wth me on FB). I basically told her that I don’t appreciate her disrespect and I hope in the future she will make better choices, and I asked that she cease contact with my man. She was what seemed sorry, and compliant. Well today she sends him and email at work that said “I know we aren’t supposed to talk but happy birthday and happy v-day”. I was seeing red. I sent her a message that said I really didn’t expect much from her given the type of person she is (i included a bible quote for kicks because she claims to be suuuch a christian). She sends back paragraph after paragraph about how i need to get over it, i’m not better than her, i have no life etc. Although all these are her lies to make herself feel better, it was still crappy to read. I’m glad I said something, but a part of me knows it was like saying it to a wall. I am glad the hubby never responded and told me right away. I’m just sickened that there exists people like her in the world. So long story short, I’m not able to sleep tonight thinking about the junk she said. It shouldn’t bother me, but it does. Worth it? I don’t know. Somehow just writing to you all about it seems to help me through stuff like this. 🙂
I envy you the satisfaction of writing her a letter and saying what was on your mind. While her return letter must have been hard to read, you did get one important thing out of it. She showed her true colors with her lying and viciousness. You are no better than her??? YOU have no life? Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha. Sorry, SHE is the one chasing after YOUR husband. Ummm heellllooo? Can you say projection?? I would find some satisfaction in those words. She is projecting her own truth and misery onto you. She is pathetic. If I responded at all, I would send a thank you. Thank you for showing my husband what a POS you are. If he wasn’t cured from the EA before, he surely is now!
Exercisegrace- thanks for your encouragement. Made me feel better, because I do think you are right about her projecting. I don’t think I’m going to respond. I think she wants the argument. I said what I needed and so long as my H is compliant, I’ll leave her to her miserable life. (her poor child, ugh, I wish the best for that poor kid). I showed him what she said and he was disgusted at her lack of remorse…HAA surprise, a woman like that with no remorse…go figure. Any way….Cant say I don’t want to say more to her, but I don’t think her brain could handle my level of classiness. ha. 😀
I told the ow about my six children and how their lives would be destroyed and she did back right off. Somehow my husband managed to persuade her that I wouldn’t be brave enough to force a separation or maybe that if we did it would not be her fault. Whichever it was she started contact with him again. They justify it to themselves because there’s no sex so they can call it a friendship and tell each other theres nothing wrong with sneaking around behind both of their family’s backs. I’m glad she tried to stop and he talked her out of it because it makes it perfectly clear that my husband is the instigator and gave me the final push to seek a divorce.
I will contact her one more time and that will be to make it perfectly clear that the collapse of my children’s lives has Bern her and my husband’s fault. I want her not to be able to sleep at night. I can’t, why should she? And I’ll be telling her husband as soon as I manage to get mine out of the door too. He’s not s nice man but he deserves to know what is happening to his marriage.
Hugs to you. You are standing up for yourself and your children. She should feel responsible, and so should he. He is choosing another woman over the seven most important people in his life. His regrets will be enormous when he eventually realizes that he has traded so much for so little. And I agree her husband deserves to know as well.
nessw, You are a very strong women. You deserve better.
I will contact the ow as soon as my divorce is final. She was in touch with my H for 25 years of our marriage. He claims it was by phone and birthday wishes. The emotional affair started in feb. 2011 when he turned 50. I will go to her store and just stare her in the eyes. He husband also needs to know what these two low lives have done.
I feel for your children. It’s so hard on them as well. Mine are 20 and 16 and it’s been a living hell because of what this man that they use to call thier father. They call him “him”.
They don’t respect him in the least. And I can’t blame them .
Good Luck and chin up. You have our support on this site.
And tryinghard is spot on. My husband has done nothing in the 14 months since d day to deal with the situation. Just denials, lies, silences, refusals to disclose and then the endless self-pity because it turns out he worshipped me like a goddess and I ignored him. How he can sell this line to himself I don not know. I bet the ow laps it up though. Hence it’s divorce for me and I am highly inclined to take every penny I can. I gave that man my life and he has discarded me, mid forties, six kids to care for. And he still dares to paint himself as the victim. That kind of behaviour is execrable.
My husband justified his year long EA/PA in a very similar fashion. I didn’t pay enough attention to him. He felt unloved, abandoned. What a bunch of crap! I have four young kids and the demands (as you know oh so well) of homework, school events, dance, sports, church, housework, cooking, laundry on and on, are enormous. The truth that he can see NOW, two years later, is that he let a work relationship slide over many boundaries. But so gradually he didn’t see it. He is the one that moved away from me, then tried to say I created the distance he felt, when in truth he created it.
Gosh we have discussed so much here and Doug goes to a lot of thought giving us the needed venues to open up dialogue.
Ok I will admit it. Yes I want to confront the OW. I want to send her a letter. Not a hateful one but certainly not loving or understanding. I haven’t because I don’t want to sound like a raving lunatic and earlier that is what it would have sounded like. Why do I think abut wanting to do this all the time. There are so many things I want to tell her. But if or when I do will that be enough? I want her to know all the nasty things my H has said about her. I want her to know she was lied to more than I was. How I don’t blame her but she did play a role. She came to my grandsons 1st birthday party at my sons home. She insinuates herself on people. I want to tell her how everyone at work is glad she’s gone. I’m called Dorothy because I killed the wicked witch. I did text her when she was first gone. I made fun of her POS car because she had bought a new that my H financed and we made her give it back because she couldn’t get a loan by herself. Haha she didn’t like that and sent one of those mushy hallmark cards to the house. Made my H realize she was trash all the more because of that. Yes I want to give her a piece of my mind!
I left nasty vm messages for the OW when I first found out. She is married as well. Clearly is dealing with the same low self-esteem and ego-feeding that my husband was dealing with. I did want to confront her, and even now, over a year and a half out, I sometimes still do. BUT she isn’t even worth it. If she does try to weasel her way back into our lives I will go straight to her husband, in person, and tell him the whole store since he knows nothing. It used to really bother me that her husband didn’t know. I felt like it was my responsibility to tell him because I wish I would’ve known sooner so that I could squash the fantasy and the lies sooner… so I could set the record straight and slam that door in my husbands face much sooner… Alas, it is really over with the slut. Do I blame her? Yes, as much as I blame my husband! It takes 2 and she was just as married as he is… has 2 kids of her own… blah blah… he had known her as a acquaintance for 10 years since they worked at the same company. She had both of her children during that time. I asked my husband if he ever even though of her “that way” before the night she came on to him in the bar, which led to almost sex in her car that night…. the beginning of his downfall. He said no.. he had never even considered her, but it felt nice to be wanted. Great, a slut made him feel wanted and our family goes out the window. Had he been someone elses husband I would feel the same way. It takes 2. They both have to be sluts, and are both just as much to blame. Now my husband doesn’t love eating that crow, but he does. He knows that I will squash the slut like a bug if I ever see her… knows that I won’t be able to stop myself. KNOWS this. He also knows that I will never forgive HIM OR HER. I could forgive the makeout session had he told me about it, but he didn’t and it got worse from there. We could’ve stopped it then and there, but he CHOSE to continue the sickness. Forgiveness doesn’t come from me for purposeful bad choices where you KNOW you are doing wrong and you KNOW you are about to destroy other people. As for contacting the OW now, she isn’t worth my time. Of course I still dream of making her feel worse than I ever have, but I know that she doesn’t have the capacity to feel bad. She called my husband an asshole when he dumped her when I found out. She left the company, just to turn around and come back 10 months later – not because she HAD to but because she wanted to. Upon which my husband exited the location. She then informed HR that she was afraid of my husband harassing her!! He wanted NOTHING to do with her, and he never contacted her with the nastiness… I DID! LOL!! Whatever. She only cares about herself. She went running to my husband at first to find out why I was calling HER! Like SHE had no culpability in what THEY had done. She isn’t worth my time, my thoughts, my feelings. She isn’t the type of person that I would be friends with had this never have happened, and it sickens me that my husband would’ve even had anything to do with someone who would come on to a married person…. I only hope he has REALLY seen the light. I don’t think my feelings for the slut will ever change… and I certainly don’t feel that I don’t have a right to judge. We as a society have given up our power to make things right with trying to be overly accepting of everyone… right is right, and wrong is wrong. CHEATING IS WRONG, and we ALL KNOW IT!
I literally just hung up the phone after calling the OW’s husband at work! I thought I would feel horrible and silly….but quite the opposite! I almost feel empowered! It all my backfire in my face, but I don’t care! Cheaters think they are so clever and they think they are above the truth and other people! You’re not “getting away” with anything, babe. If this relationship doesn’t survive because of YOUR screw ups, I will be fine. You may have no one, and /or NOthing!
🙂
Nancy
I AM SO PROUD OF YOU!!!!! Good for you. Now the next step is not to let you H intimidate you about doing the right thing. That guy had a right to know and why should you keep her shit quiet? The OW boyfriend called me the day after DDay and gave me A LOT of information for which I was always grateful. He also called my H and threatened to kill him—teehee.
I’m dying to hear what he had to say. Does your H know you called him?
Hi All BS.
After reading all your stories, I wonder how people from all continents (I am in Asia) have such similarities when it comes to EA.
My H has an EA too in 2011 which he claims he wasn’t even aware that it was called an EA. To him, it was just depression on his part to call/text his high school sweetheart every day whom he accidentally found on FB. He was feeling depressed over our Financial problems and she was nursing a cancer stricken mother who eventually passed away last March 2012. He claims that they were just crying on each other shoulders. I guess me and her spouse were just dummies on the side line since it should have been our shoulders that they were suppose to be crying on.
I immediately confronted the other person thru phone as we live some 300km apart and gave her a piece of my mind. She was arrogrant and in denial like my H as she too claims that they were just catching up on old times (26 years of no contact) and she is aware that he is married with 2 kids. The only positive thing was she agreed immediately when I asked her to stop contacting my H and to get the hell out of our lives.On hindsight, I believe she had not intention of having an EA with my H but because she is a low life pub singer, she will behave in a flirtatous way with men and my H who is a sucker for attention fell straight into the HOLE. At that point of anger, I confronted her H too and he was surprised with all details that I told him. He too was in the dark about the happenings of his wife as they both work different times and rarely have time for each other.
Post D-day after 1 year 3 months and numerous counselling session (both of us)..I am glad that I am recovering fro the sake our my kids whom I love with all my life and I have given my teenage daughter enough pain (with the fighting, screaming, physical hitting my H) to scar her for a lifetime.
Thank you! No…H doesn’t know, not yet anyway! He’s bee strange all day, which makes me suspicious….and makes me even more glad that I made the phone call!
Nancy
OMG you need to keep us posted! She probably called him to 1 bitch him out and 2 to warn him. I can’t believe if she had that he wouldn’t tell you. Also you are probably hyper sensitive after the emotionally filled day do you think. Courage sister. Prayers and positive thoughts coming your way. Remember faith is stronger than fear. You did the right thing
I know I shouldn’t but I occassionally check up on the OW to see what she’s up to. I do it less than I did but I found her posting on a popular make-up related message board (so typical, she writes about lipsticks, perfume, moisturisers and the like). Recently she’s started posting ‘advice’ on a wedding related link and the advice isn’t about make-up but relationship advice or places to visit on a honeymoon (she’s never been married).
The temptation to add a reply to her posts along the lines of ‘what advice are you going to give this woman about delaing with her husband sleeping with a trollop who picked him up at a conference’ or ‘perhaps you can advise this woman on how nice it is to visit other women’s husbands on your trips abroad and get them to pay for them’.
I sometimes hate it that she got off this jaunt of hers so lightly and I’ve had 18 months of hard work and crap.
ChiffChaff
I check up on the OW all the time. I want to know what she’s driving. I have license plate number. I know the two jobs she has. I have gotten into her FB page thru a “back door” because she has privacy settings on her account. I have all her court records of bankruptcies, foreclosures, arrests, divorces. I had to learn as much about the “enemy” as I could. I had to know what I was dealing with in order to work through the problems. Yes this was my husband’s decision but she played a huge part in the deception. I knew what I was dealing with with him and I needed to know what I was dealing with on the other side.
She has not gotten off easy. She lost her job, her car, and she has to pay back a huge debt to unemployment as she lied about being unemployed after she was let go at my business. She has to work two jobs now, she drives a taped up wreck of a car. She has gained so much weight, looks 10 years older than her age, etc, I could go on and on. AND YET I still have the need to sabotage her. Nothing illegal but I will never stop wanting to make her life a misery.
Don’t post on her blog. Reading it will give you information about the sow that you need to know. This would be showing your hand.
Thanks for your comments. I haven’t posted on her blog, the thing that stops me is I don’t want it to then prompt her to contact my H in some way/it would also make her feel like I was still worried about her and give her power/ it doesn’t do anything for me really. all of those reasons.
It’s so useful to be able to post these types of thoughts here, like the thoughts of leaving my marriage, as there’s no-one else really who has constructive comments to make in reality. I don’t talk to my friends about this anymore, it’s so boring really. I also don’t talk to my sister about it as she still thinks I should just leave him.
I have one very good friend who is very supportive of our attempts to stay together and work hard and that is great. you really do find out who your true friends are from disasters like this.
Last week (Valentine’s day) , I wrote a nasty message to the OW through Linkedin. I immediately withdrew the comment, realizing a bit to late that she could use it to hurt other people who were not involved in all of this. Worrying that she would get an e-mail notification of the message, I e-mailed her and told her that I regretted sending it. She replied that she had never received it, then went on to tell me how checking her out on LinkedIn was “twisting a knife in old wounds.” Really? Does she understand that those “wounds” were self-inflicted, and pale in comparison to the pain that I have endured for the past year and and 8 months? Clearly not.
I now understand that checking her out on Facebook, Linkedin, etc. has no purpose. It only expends energy that I need to heal myself. She is not contrite, she is still selfish, and will never understand the the magnitude of the destruction that she has caused. On the other hand, maybe she does and is happy about that?
I can’t go there.
Ultimately,I have three amazing daughters. I never want them to believe that I can reduce myself to being a pig as the OW has proven herself to be. I will not wallow in the muck created by this affair.
I need to let go of her and move forward. Not an easy task…
OMG Tweet you must be a much better person than I. First of all I WOULD NEVER have apologized even if I had bamboo shoots under my nails. Second when she made the comment about knives in old wounds I would have jumped for joy and offered to put salt on the ends of said knives!~!
Yes you are quite right we do need to forget about them and move on. And all it takes to lose weight is eat less and exercise more. HA easy! I keep that cow in my thoughts because I will never let her or anyone like her creep up on me ever again. If I know the snake is in my garden I am going to be looking for it. She played half the role in this devastation in my and my family’s lives.
Tryinghard,
I am a struggling BS just like all of us here on this site. I will never forgive what the OW did to me and my family. If she views my apology for sending her a nasty e-mail as an “out”, she is sadly mistaken. In fact, I hope that a very big bus runs over her tomorrow! Would I love to post her on cheaterville.com? You bet! But I can’t do that…
I just needed to be sure that this fiasco didn’t involve other people who really have no idea of what has happened.
Ultimately, I need to be a role model for my daughters. Their love and respect is far more important to me than anything else in this world. The oldest was married last year, exactly one year plus one day past d-day – not easy. Their dad and I may not make it, but I want them to know that their mom took the high road, even though it was so very difficult. I need to focus on this.
I have appreciated reading all of your posts, and I understand where you are coming from at every level. As I said before, each day is a struggle. I can’t tell you how much you have helped me – to know that I’m not alone in this crazy journey.
Tweet
I know what you mean. All of you have helped me so much too. One day up next day down. One day we want to run them over with a bus next day we want to take the high road…and the beat goes on. I think what helps me is when people say I’m crazy for feeling this way I KNOW ..well if I’m crazy I know I have a bunch of “crazy” sisters out there too.
I don’t know if my H and I are going to make it or not either and I’ve decided it’s ok to think that. If we do get divorced it will be because I want it not him.
Ok… It has been a while since I posted here BUT… I texted OW2 today. I was stunned that at first she seemed willing to talk but that soon shut down. Grrr! I was hoping for something BUT very curiously… when I asked if we could talk and she said yes, I asked what happened, how far did it go, etc. Her response was “Well, what do you know?”. Then, I knew. She was only going to admit, like my husband, to what I could prove and knew. When I told her that, frankly,I don’t know anything because I don’t believe a word my husband says, she shut down. SO for all his “I swear I didn’t sleep with her” routine, uh, yeah, you probably did. She could’ve denied it but chose not to, saying that she wasn’t ready to get too deep with the conversation and that she didn’t want drama. Yeah, so you mess around with a married man and expect there to be NO drama? WTF?? I really think she still loves him. I really think that she is going to stick up for him after all the crappy things he has said about her. I really think she is waiting for the divorce to be final. LOL! If she only knew that he says he just strung her along to get his kicks. And I would tell her too, except they still work together and I don’t know what she would do. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care about his job, but seeing as he WILL be supporting me and our child, I cannot afford (literally) for him to get fired. Honestly, what is wrong with these women? Hello??? If they’ll do it WITH you, they’ll do it TO you! My head is spinning!
Oh, before I forget – the LOL moment of out brief “talk” – she said she was “TRULY TRULY” sorry for what I was going through. Yeah, I’m sure :-/
Symac,
She could give a shit about you and the intense hurt it has cased you and your marriage. She is sick and doesn’t like herself just like our husbands that needed the stroking of their ego’s. It’s all bull shit that we as good people have to go through.
Oh, I know. I was gritting my teeth, trying to be as nice as I could to get something out of her, all the while hating myself and thinking “Why am I even giving her the time of day?”. I look back on the texts and they make me laugh. SHE has the audacity to be HURT? LMFAO! No kidding, she whined about how she would never had developed such strong feelings for him if he had not lied to her. Um… HELLO? HE’S MARRIED! OF COURSE HE IS LYING TO YOU! HE’S LYING TO HIS WIFE AND MOTHER OF HIS CHILD! Where the &*^% do you find the nerve to be hurt? You KNEW he was married, and then you say you don’t want drama. I have to think that there is some deep, psychological warp going on there, because can’t fathom how you could get involved with a married person and think that everything is going to turn our smelling like roses. I can’t, nor am I going to try, to wrap my head around that mess, because then I’d probably end up as amoral and twisted as they are. Ugh, headache!
I saw my h and the ow together, after my h told me he was trying to make it easier on her, so it ad to take time. It didn’t matter that everything around us s falling apart, as long as she was ok.
Didn’t matter the I was drowning in grief, it was all about her.
I saw her a few times, the last time I saw her it was t our loacl park, she met my h their, while he wanted to walk our dog.
I went down their, and they were there together.
I hit the roof, the anger came out.
My h in front of her told me he loved her, I asked her if she slept with him, she said, ” it’s not your business”. Wtf, ohhh yes it is my business.
I could her a sl*t and she proceeded to tell me that I was. Ahhh hello, this is my h, I can sleep with my h.
I made a scene, it was very vocal, probably not the best way I could have handled things, but I was struggling, to hang onto my family. I made them look embarrassed in front of others in the park. Told everyone how dirty the were.
Told my h, he can have his ow, I was leaving and taking our kids with me, and walked off back home ready to pack.
Next thing my h was behind me, stopping me from leaving.
Left her own the park crying, as he told her he wasn’t letting his wife leave and that h should go home. She started crying saying to him
” you always run after her”
Well honey, of course he runs to me, he knows what he has with me, you don’t have our history, you don’t have our children, you don’t have the love we have for each other.
What you have is infatuation, and a manipulative nature. My h knows where he really wants to be, he knows where he belongs. Just a bit slow at seeing her for what she really is.
Previos post under “Nancy”…..Well…in my last post i told you I called the OW husband. He contacted me and confirmed all of my questions,,,,that they were indeed carrying on the affair, stll. confronted my H last night….he denied everything. Is furious at me. And just walked out. I’m devastated. Talk about backfire. I want to die.
The OW in my case is petite blonde but not show stopping beautiful. What bothers me is all of our friends had told me not to worry I am smarter, beautiful and more friendly. I had not met her at this time So when I did confront her I was a bit shocked that my husband was even remotely attracted to her, she is flirty ditsy and pretty plain. I believe it is more the fact that she is a different and definitely falls into the category of “affairing down”.
Just a quick background on my marriage , we have been married 15 years, in the past year we have been overcoming my husbands 2 year stint of depression, we moved to a new town, both started new jobs and he met HER. We have no children and have always been close and in love. Yet I think all these stresses have pushed a wedge between us.
I am fighting to save our marriage and my husband is sitting here waiting for someone to fix his life. He doesn’t want to stop the EA and he is still in the affair fog, this has only been going on now for about 4 months.
I have confronted this woman on several occasions, at first I tried the ” he is married you should back the hell off” approach. Only to find she was also married, so I sent her husband an email ( they live in another town) She deleted it before he read it. ( I only just found this out and this was a few months ago) Not hearing back from him, I wrongly assumed they were working on things. As the EA continued I confronted her again, this time trying to play on her guilt and compassion. She actually told me that she really just wanted to be friends with my husband and that she was trying to save her marriage!!! She has told my husband the same thing, so now he uses that as a reason to stay “friends” with her.
However I finally gave up on her and emailed her husband at work , he responded right away. He has told me they have recently separated, that she was moving on to be with my husband and that me and my husband were also getting a divorce…..all this his wife has told him. Of course we are not getting a divorce, my husband is still with me, although on the fence yet but he is still here.
This all just happened last week and it has brought me and my husband into many heated discussions over the last few days.
This did show me though that her mindset is unlike anything I have seen, she is in a fantasy and has made big plans for them. All while lying to me her husband and mine. The problem is that she did not head my warnings, my pleading or my down to earth approaches. I think it just showed her I was afraid, worried and angry. All of which she played on to get closer to my husband. As they both were now “working” on their marriages and going through the same issues together ( dumb I know)
I am not sure that my confronting her or her husband has helped. Maybe if I had made sure that he received my first email things may have taken a different path for them. Currently my husband thinks I am a control freak for confronting them and for trying to get her to take off, as well as for trying to get him to stop what he is doing.
So just as the lady above this has backfired on me as well. My husband sees the OW as troubled and confused , not as a liar and a manipulator and he sees me as controlling and demanding.
I think the only thing my confronting the OW and her spouse has done is pushed things further along and may push my husband farther away. Time will tell.
Hi GL,
Sorry to see you on this site, but it is a valuable resource for you AND your husband. He and the OW need to snap out of the fog and come to realize that what they are feeling is just fantasy. Keep fighting if you want to save your marriage – all the best!
GL
You did the right thing by contacting the OW husband. You have level the playing field. I got a call from the OW boyfriend/stepson(ULK) the day after DDay and he gave me some great information. He also called my H and gave him some information that my H didn’t have at the time because he didn’t think there was anything physical going on between them, there was and she lied. Made her look really bad in his eyes. It may seem it backfired by the response but they are being defensive and yes they are in the affair fog too. This is war and you are fighting for your marriage and sanity. stay strong. You need to gather as much information as you can to make a good decision but staying and putting up with his deceit would not be acceptable in my life. You are extremely hurt now but now is when you need to use all the logic about the situation you can possibly muster. Stay away from the OW, you did what you needed to do and she will be NO HELP. She has an agenda and her agenda is your husband. Keep talking to your husband and trying to be supportive, I know it’s hard when all you want to do is strangle the M Fer! We all get called controlling because we want them to stop the madness which they don’t see as madness. Put your foot down and make it clear it is you or her and you will not put up with anymore betrayal. Be ready to stand by your word. Good Luck friend.
Thank you Tryinghard and Xterra, I welcome the support. I love my husband but I don’t want to be a doormat!! I do need to stand my ground though I think that is the only way I am going to make it out with some sanity. Things have changed with my husband he is definitely different towards me lately ( in a good way). I just need to keep showing him I am strong and better than her and maybe one day he will “wake up” and realize what type of person she truly is. So I am going to ask him to move out and show him I am serious , then maybe just maybe he might see what he is loosing out here. We don’t have a perfect life but we have a damn good one.thanks again for the sharing I need it! 🙂
Did I confront and did it help? After 11 years married with NO problems at all (seriously, not even an argument) I accidently discovered my H had been having 2 affairs. One for the past 15 months and then 2 weeks later, found out about another one lasting our entire marriage. I knew both OW. My H encouraged me to be friends with them. The 15 mo OW was a recent widow, weighed over 350 lbs, had a colostomy bag (due to anal cancer) was on disability and looked like Shrek. The 11year OW was short, fat, toothless, mentally handicapped and married. My CH has told me that he chose BOTH of these women because they were easy prey and would keep his secrets. He knew they could be manipulated “like puppets on a string”. He knew they would lap up his attention. He has said he felt sorry for them. I confronted both. Both lied. The 15 mo OW had always loved my H. In fact, he had cheated on his first wife with her over 35 years ago (and over the years during other relationships). The 11 year woman had her husband’s permission and was told by my H that I knew and was “on board” with the arrangement. It did me no good to confront. Both OW were lied to and liars. The 15 mo OW is dead now. Died from her anal cancer (caused from HPV) spreading to her spine. I now have anal HPV. The 11 year OW has been in hiding since DDay (June 2013). I hear she’s having health issues. Wonder if it’s HPV related? In all of this, I realize it’s my CH that is the problem. How he treats women. I KNOW I did nothing wrong. He is warped. He maintains both OW were “just friends”. He “can’t remember” anything, but says he’s sorry for whatever he did to hurt me. I am financially unable to leave. I have been living a nightmare for almost 4 years. He tried saying he did this because I wasn’t paying enough attention to him, but I’m not having that. Since DDay, I have discovered he’s cheated on every woman he’s ever been with. It caused arguments and then breakups. He has a pattern. He uses the excuses of a bad childhood and he’s “just a man”. Poor thing! Nope, not having that either. I believe he is sick. This has forever changed me and I don’t understand how someone can do this to another human being. He and all his OW have serious integrity problems. What i have learned from all of this is : If one cheats, don’t expect truth from them and NEVER fully trust anyone.
I confronted my husband after verifying he was having an affair with his dental assistant 5/28/20. He said it was over, but I did not believe anything he told me. I was on an emotional roller coaster for sure. 6/10/20, I decided to drive by her house, just to write down her license plate number. I suspected at the time that he had bought her the car. Well, as I was sitting parked across from her house, I got spotted. So, I jumped out of the car and confronted her. I told her who I was and the first thing out of her mouth was “I am not the 1st”. I was floored, to say the least. She let me know there had been another assistant awhile back. I asked her a few questions about the “why” of the affair, but everything she told me was a lie. And the affair was not over at this point. She was not particularly good looking, which surprised me, but she was 23 years younger than him, an alcoholic like him and had no moral code/boundaries like him. He denied any other affairs of course, but I kept looking and I found out about the other physical affair as well as several EA’s. He would never have told me about the others and I needed to know. He has come a long way, sober 1 year 6/25/21, talking more, some mentoring etc. He claims the affair is over and there have been no texts/emails/phone calls that I am aware of since December . BUT SHE still works by his side EVERY DAY. Thus, I can not work on saving this 36 year marriage any longer. Monitoring everything is making me sick. I moved out last week.
My husband’s AP is 10 years younger and married also. She and her husband were friends that we occasionally socialized with. My husband met her through work (she worked for his biggest client) and was one of the main contacts he had with that client (they had daily contact wither in person r by phone/email).
My husband is not her first affair. She knew I found out, but the affair continued. She even got a kick out of taunting me sometimes about it. she has no shame (or at least a sensitivity chip in her body).
I have never confronted her (my sister did and it forced the AP to come clean to her husband because my sister told her that if she didn’t, my sister would take care of that for her (she was friends with my sister too). I wanted to, but I knew deep down it was best to take the high road. It hasn’t always been easy to do that, but I do think I did the right thing by not lowering myself to her level. And I think she would have loved it if I did confront her.
Her husband divorced her within two months. He said he’s been down this road with her before and he was done. We’re still going through ours (it’s been year).
But I will say, the AP in my case is very competitive and “taking” my husband is par for the course with her and her competitive nature. He obviously wasn’t hog-tied and made to have an affair, but she is known to manipulate and flirt with men in town and for her, I believe, this is all a power trip. What saddens me is that probably, once this is all over and we are divorced, she will tire of him and move on to her next conquest. It’s kind of her MO, although no one, even my husband’s closest friends, have been able to convince him of this. He is convinced they are soulmates. But I am afraid the reality will be far from it.
Do not contact the OW. In order for someone to be an OW (or OM) ,,, they have to be narcissists. There’s is no exception. These people lack empathy. It never occurs to them: “How would I feel, if someone did this to me?” They feel entitled to grab happiness no matter the cost. It’s all about them. Trying to rationalize with one, is like trying to talk to a 3 yr old.
My husband had an affair last year with a woman that is so not his type. It didn’t make sense. But thru therapy, we know affairs have nothing to do with sex or attraction. They are about ego & deficits. It’s actually perfect that she is as unattractive as she is- it proved everything we learned thru therapy. We tend to be intimidated by the hot woman in the bar. But the woman with self confidence knows she could do better … she doesn’t want another woman’s sloppy seconds. But the plain female with low self esteem and lack of morals is going to put your spouse on a pedestal like nobody’s business. That’s how this mess happens. It really doesn’t matter if the OW is attractive … the physical has little to do with it. It’s the way she mentally screws him, worships him.
We have a terminally ill child … and she exploited that grief to get in. She lost a child a few years back. Isn’t that a sexy way to get a man’s attention? Exploit his pain? Use your dead kid to get laid? And from there, she did the typical flattery, grooming …. minimizing me … manipulating and guilting him.
Anyway, I did send her a message once. Nothing changed. She didn’t back off. And when I told our therapist I did that, she said: “Oh no honey, you never contact the OW. For one, it’s not safe. Lack of integrity made her think there’s nothing wrong with pursuing a married man. You don’t know how low the lack of integrity goes, she might hurt you. But secondly, you are appealing to the morals of someone who showed you she doesn’t have any. As long as your husband in pain and affair fog, wants to talk to her … your heartache and agony do not matter. Your son’s existence & suffering, doesn’t matter. Even the one she claims to care about in all this, your husband, he’s tormented with guilt & confusion … and stands to lose so much in a divorce. She does not care about any of that. While you all suffering on some level, she is in the best time of her life. She has such low self esteem, she knows she’s unattractive … but she’s bragging to someone about the hot married guy who wants her. She’s excited for the next text, next call, or next encounter.”
My mind was blown. That was all true. Narcissists don’t see past their own noses. You can’t argue with them, you can’t rationalize. When they lose the game they tried to manipulate, they play the victim. She told a mutual friend that she was single and did nothing wrong. Meanwhile … she was calling when she knew I went to bed, she was using secret apps to contact him through … narcissists just don’t get it. You are wasting your breath. Move on … in the end … you win, they lose. Even if your marriage ends … you win because you aren’t the OW. You’re better. Blessed healing to you all …
D,
You are 100% correct. They are narcissists. Sick Sociopaths. I made the mistake to go talk to her because she was an acquaintance and I wanted her to know I knew and to stay away from my family. She and her friend physically assaulted me, lied to police and had me arrested! Then she made a fake claim (ANOTHER LIE) that I contacted her violating a no contact order. She’s a pathological liar and told the judge I’ve been following her when she is the one who has been stalking me, jogging on the path that I’ve been driving to work for the past 15 years.
Tom Brady is dumping his wife, supermodel Giselle Bundchen, over football. That’s kind of like the ultimate diss to me. It doesn’t matter what you look like – there’s always someone prettier, younger, better figure whatever than you are. And that goes for the OW too. My husband’s EA is with a woman who (according to the text messages I’ve secretly read) has intestinal parasites. And I’m sure each one is a little stunner.
You can only be the best you, you can be. That’s what you have to strive for and you DO IT FOR YOU. You can usually find another man if you want one just by playing up to his ego and making him feel like he’s King of the World. Most of the time, if it’s more than a ONS, it’s usually about that. Or make him feel like he’s rescuing you because he’s so wonderful. And maybe he is. Hmmm…..maybe your husband really IS a dud.
But don’t feel like you have to put up with being chopped liver because the AP is attractive….if you read People magazine or the tabloids, you see beautiful, famous women get dumped all the time and they’re a lot less happy than most of us.
I think the best thing you can tell an OW is all the bad things you can invent to say that your “husband told you”. Just lie to her. Make sure you know enough about her to make up plausible lies but then just contact her and spread it on. Ya know….I’m sure it’s not YOUR fault that this whole thing started but I’d like to understand it from your point of view. My husband has said the most awful things about you and I just can’t believe they’re true. Do you really have an offensive feminine odor? He told me it caused him some problems in your intimate moments.
She’ll either start screaming at you like a nut or just tell you everything you want to know. Hell hath no fury like a woman insulted. And don’t feel bad about tricking these scumbags, they deserve it.